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YOUR RESEARCHperspectives from my dealer master mechanic
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Use on the amg cars and able
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He said he has never seen the Mercedes transmission fail on the Tiptronic S (which he said is used on the AMG cars and able to handle excess of 600ft lbs of torque), but that the Mk1 tips have been known to fail....He also quipped it's one of the many things in the 996 that has been over-engineered and over-built.
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Heck, sticky trim panels and buttons are common problem with the Ferrari f355, 360, 430, and probably the 458.
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I just did the IMS retrofit while in for an RMS leak and changed anything that could go soon while the engine and tranny were out.
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Had my 2 month old 996 C4 in for an oil change today having driven 3000+ miles in that short time.
Run costs in terms of consumables and insurance, and is
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Instead they go and spend as much or more $ on either 1) older 911s that are inferior in nearly all mechanical/ergonomic/performance/safety/cost respects relevant to a street car, or 2) a 997 mk1 that is nearly identical to the 996 (esp in engine design) but which weighs more and apparently looks better, or 3) a GT3 (or Turbo) that is way more car than they need for the street, weighs more, has much higher running-costs in terms of consumables and insurance, and is for the most part no more capable or enjoyable than a 996na at legal/safe limits on public roads.
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As a result of all this irrational behavior, those who understand the 996 and it's weaknesses are able buy them at very reasonable prices and use the money left over for other purposes (including trackdays where they can get maximum enjoyment out of their awesome cars while learning more, more quickly and for less $ than someone in a gt3 or turbo).
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He said he has never seen the Mercedes transmission fail on the Tiptronic S (which he said is used on the AMG cars and able to handle excess of 600ft lbs of torque), but that the Mk1 tips have been known to fail....He also quipped it's one of the many things in the 996 that has been over-engineered and over-built.
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He said he has never seen the Mercedes transmission fail on the Tiptronic S (which he said is used on the AMG cars and able to handle excess of 600ft lbs of torque), but that the Mk1 tips have been known to fail....He also quipped it's one of the many things in the 996 that has been over-engineered and over-built. I asked him what else is over-engineered and over-built - he said in general the H6 engine is pretty much over-engineered and over-built if compared against many other engines out there.
His point is that many owners do DE's on these engines and daily driver them. No other engine in his experience could handle that kind of use and survive 100K+ miles. He quipped "How many cars out there can you punish in stop and go city traffic during the week and on the weekends race the crap out of the engine at 7000rpm for a couple of hours".
I asked him if them if they thought that Porsche 'skimped' on the 996 during an era of financial hardship. He said "yes - on the interior, some switch gear - but NOT on the engine and suspension - the amount of over-engineering that went into it to handle the variations in usage far exceeds that of any other car manufacturer"
I recognize this is just one dealership's opinion. But Herb Chambers is one of the top Porsche dealerships in the country - so they see a LOT of cars - that's one data point.
if it was so over-engineered, my exhaust valve seat material wouldn't have broken into bits and fallen into the engine. The material broke apart due to apparent stress.
Then there's the intermix, IMS, etc.
Just also a data point.
Too bad, it means no good if 100% is over-engineered and 1% of the parts have been haggle to death with supplier from god knows where.
It seems the same points are failing on those engine over and over. couple little things, but to be really bullet proof, 100% needs to be high quality and for that I am afraid you have to buy the GT3 ...
The GT3 is a bargain, when you think about all those poor owner who had to add $20k to their regular 996 ...
I agree...GT3 and Turbo look like better bargains....If I had to buy all over again, I'd probably spend the extra $20K to buy a Turbo...
BUT I didn't do that so no point thinking about it - I'll just drop the top on my way to work and enjoy my beautiful C4
I don't get it. People talk about spending an extra $20K for a turbo or GT3 for the reliability. If that's the case, why not spring for the 2K for the IMS/RMS upgrades? Get a nice clutch while you're at it.
----------- Let the arrows and barbs begin to fly now --------------
Sure. The M96 is not a terribly powerful powerplant, its reliability is suspect at best, and moving to wet sumps is just another downgrade. Porsche started making serious dollars per car with the 996 generation. Ask yourself how.
The transmission is fine, the engine is suspect, the interior is quite frankly a disaster (peeling/chipping paint, plastic seat controls, fuel/trunk levers, etc). The build quality differences of things being screwed together vs. clipped together, etc etc.
If you don't like it, don't read it.
Further, maybe some people expect more from a $75k vehicle.
Sorry, Quadcammer, I guess I wasn't clear. By "qualify" I meant, can you tell me what bona fides you have that make what you're saying useful and credible to us?
Because otherwise, it really is just sour grapes and a waste of bandwidth.
Really? how many 3.6 motors (of any configuration) that were naturallly aspirated made 320hp/271ft lbs of torque in 2002?
Make sure you compare apples to apples......
Aside from having over 10 years of experience with high powered sporting vehicles, my opinion is just that of an enthusiast.
Sour grapes? Why? I don't own a 996, never have, and most likely never will.
As for waste of bandwidth, I disagree. Thats basically saying that any non-expert that posts their opinion on this site is wasting bandwidth.
i don't limit engines by displacement. The S54 in the E46 m3 is an example, but again, why should I limit my definition of a powerful engine to 3.6L just because thats what porsche decided to use.
I don't know if I'd bother with this argument. Peak horsepower is such a marketing number, and has so little to do with a car's real world performance. Porsche easily got to 100 very usable hp per litre with this design, and they put it into a very light car. The package absolutely outperformed the car it was designed to replace, which is what they set out to do.
It's true that interiors are a letdown, but it is what it is. The 996 saved Porsche, and earned respect as a racing platform in the process. Not bad for a company that wasn't too many bad days from bankruptcy at the time.
I love my 996. That's a qualified statement that no one can change. And when this one wears out, I'll get another Porsche - the newest best model I can afford.
While I agree with the statement, I have seen no talk of engine failures due to oiling problems. I would feel better with a dry sump, but it's not like it seems to be an issue.
From what I've been reading here, it seem that the beloved 993 engine had their problem as well, and when they happen, the expensive way of building them, then fall down to the owner.
If the 996 factory re-manufactured engine was $9k as it used to be 3 years ago, it would not be such a big issue, but now that it cost double, that's a lot more painful.
I think that if you want 'high reliability' engines, you simply need to get a GT3
A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. A little bit of knowledge = "996 engines have a high rate of failure due to [RMS leaks, IMS failure, wet sumps, fill-in-the-blank]. Thusly the slightly-informed masses shun the 996 causing depreciation that is out of all proportion to the small (<1%? I doubt anyone has any data to support a higher number...?) engine failure rate. Instead they go and spend as much or more $ on either 1) older 911s that are inferior in nearly all mechanical/ergonomic/performance/safety/cost respects relevant to a street car, or 2) a 997 mk1 that is nearly identical to the 996 (esp in engine design) but which weighs more and apparently looks better, or 3) a GT3 (or Turbo) that is way more car than they need for the street, weighs more, has much higher running-costs in terms of consumables and insurance, and is for the most part no more capable or enjoyable than a 996na at legal/safe limits on public roads.
As a result of all this irrational behavior, those who understand the 996 and it's weaknesses are able buy them at very reasonable prices and use the money left over for other purposes (including trackdays where they can get maximum enjoyment out of their awesome cars while learning more, more quickly and for less $ than someone in a gt3 or turbo).
And to the aircooled crowd: By all means, please do continue to enjoy the truck-like bump compliance and akward ergonomics of the older 911s while the clock runs down on your need for a $20k rebuild on a 2-valve motor that produces lackluster torque and suffers from poor throttle response. As long as you're having fun... do whatever floats your boat. Oh wait, but your not having fun... you're hanging out in an internet forum dedicated to a car you don't like and don't own. Hmmm.... is that because your car is too valuable to drive or too difficult to drive? Well, at least it looks good from the outside, right? Right? :-(
Sorry everyone, I guess I'm grumpy today too. Off soapbox now.
Not buyin' it, either. My 99.5 A4 1.8T had 100 more hp than stock, 120 more ft-lbs than stock, has 250K miles and ~20 track days and still has outstanding compression. The engine has never even been opened up.
I really like the M96, particularly in 3.6 guise. I've driven (and owned) several M3s on track and off. Even the S54 isn't as happy in the higher rev ranges, and feels strained, though the numbers would suggest otherwise with higher peak HP/torque figures. Alas the MKII 996 is faster, and is a worlds better experience to drive.
The "soft touch" plastics is a fact of life for modern cars, VW/AUDI/Porsche/BMW all have it. I do prefer the interior of my MKII car to the MKI, or the e46 for that matter, which also has the same issues. Also, the full leather option improves things nicely for both 996s. Before I bought my first 996 (MKI) I thought the e46 interior was a high mark, particularly for the better trimmed 330/M3 models, but again the 996 interior feels/looks better still.
I can say this till I'm blue in the face but from my experience the 996 is an outstandingly reliable platform, and feel much stiffer chassis/better built -with the noted exception of shutting the doors- than earlier Porsches I've owned. That said, I like many Porsches, and I'm kicking around the idea of an early 911 as well as a 924
-that doesn't mean I think either were "better" cars, just different.
Bingo !!!!!!
I've wished many time Porsche would tie in with the japanese bike engine guys so we could see some 14,000rpm 500hp natural asperated 3 liters. My 1 liter bike makes 170hp. I just wish and wish and wonder what break Porsche was romancing helping Harley Davidson build better engines for the vrod model. And to further ramble and halucinate I can see many complaining about engine failures blaming Porsche screwing up making the 14,000rpm cars with customers never having a clue about why they blew it reving the engine with no load.
I could swear I have seen a forum feature some place where you can elect to ignore post from and member you elect to add to the ignore list. I can see the that feature was created now. Never owned a porsche? What is she, stalking an ex husband?
Happy shopping to you and everyone else here.
Hah, funny.
A friend of mine recently took delivery of a 2003 Lamborghini Murcielago with 8.5k miles on it.
Every
button in that car is sticky like honey and leaves a residue on your fingers. Common problem w/ the modern Gallardo and Murcielago.
Heck, sticky trim panels and buttons are common problem with the Ferrari f355, 360, 430, and probably the 458.
Maybe you'd expect more, but personally, the overall package outweigh the disadvantages.
Porsche made some sacrifices, but the overall direction was moving forward. And it's evident by the sales numbers.
/m
I love my car. For it's supposed flaws and issues, when I get in the car it surrounds me like a glove and the sound is something that makes adrenaline rush. No other car I have owned has provided that kind of visceral experience that invites one to jump in the car and just drive somewhere for the fun of it. I have had a 944 and 951, own a TR6, driven supercharged and V12 Jaguars (XKE, XJS and XKR) MGB, Lotus Turbo Esprit, Lambo Countach and none made me smile like my 996 does.
I am now going to sit in my car just because I want to.
My 99 C2 Tip is the most fun car I have ever owned! While it started life as a DD, a few stints at our DEs has gotten me hooked down that slippery slope. While the car is now playing double duty, on the track and street, it is now properly set up for both and has 122k miles on its clock. I just did the IMS retrofit while in for an RMS leak and changed anything that could go soon while the engine and tranny were out. The car is ready for another 100k. This will buy me enough time to save my pennies for my next P-Car.
Had my 2 month old 996 C4 in for an oil change today having driven 3000+ miles in that short time. It went buy fast and I am still smiling. While waiting, John - the Service Guy at Chris's - and I reminised about the good old days of Porsche 911 engines. We remember how everyone needed to upgrade their Chain Tensioners back in the day... oh and that Pop-off valve thingy. Then of course there was the threat of your 3.6 dual pluger (964) going balistic due to a distributer design issue. Latter there was the Coaking issues and CEL on 993's ... and along the way Valves and Head Studs and...
Ah - for the good old days ;-)
I continue to see posts of people slamming the 996 interior, which I do not understand. What is supposedly so bad about it? I'm quite fond of mine and found it to be much nicer than my friend's 964 that I drove last week.
the biggest issue with the 996 interior/exterior design is it was leaps and bounds from the previous 911's. People were not ready for a new 911. Thats why the 997 is more pre-996 design. A shame really, Imagine what the designers could of drawn if the buyers were more open to letting go of the precious aircooled cars.
DITTO on the interior in the 996! It is modern functional and very tasteful. It is not "Space-age glitz" like a 350 ZX. And I must admit - the first time I saw a 997 I wondered why they went Backwards. But then what do I know - I am one of those weird folk that actually like the 996 Headlights? I am also one of those guys that do not want a Boom Box & TV Nav system in my dash! Over the last few weeks I have been in two PNWR club events with dozens of Porsche's all around my simple Narrow body Silver Carrera. While I love them all & still enjoy seeing a 356 - the simple clean shape of the 996 is my favorite - and I think the truest evolution of the original 911 - and it's mine... so :-)
Just speaking for myself, my issue with the interior isn't with the design. It's with some of the materials they had to use to hit their cost targets. I agree that the 997 lacks character by comparison, and I think that the 996 improved some over the the life of the series.
From a design perspective, I think you can't really 'get' the 996 interior until you do the console delete. Then you kind of understand it... it's a very witty take on the 911, and quite a nice place to be.
I completely agree. To me, the interior is comfortable and satisfactory for a high-performance sports car. Is it appropriate for a luxury car? Probably not.
That said, I'm glad Porsche put its dollars into the suspension, brakes, and drivetrain rather than into a fancy or more upscale interior.
The standard full leather (dash, doors, etc...) plus a few extended bits in my C4S make the interior look far superior to that of earlier 911's...certainly doesn't look cheap and still looks new at 95K kms. By comparison the interior of a 997 C4S didn't get full leather as standard and looks cheap and plasticky without it. I've also seen 2005 and 2006 997 with less mileage than mine with an interior that looks a little ratty, particularly on the seat bolsters.
I hear all the talk about cheap interiors....and I don't get it. Mine has full leather and maybe that makes the difference. But nothing is fading, chipping or looking cheap. I'm also thrilled it doesn't have some of the (seems to me) gaudy accent's or video-game style instruments I see on other (particularly Japanese) cars. It's comfortable, conservative and nicely done.
The early Porsches were austere at best. Serviceable. Nothing that you'd ever use to show off to someone else (English cars with burled woods were better for that). That's why the early ones were more owned by engineers & enthusiasts who were willing to have more of their money invested in engineering. But every car design makes choices about how the money will be spent to keep the car in at a particular price point. As consumers, we get to choose cars that match how we want to spend our dollars.
I am also a little lost on the extensive whining about dry sumps. They don't make your car go faster. They add plumbing and demand more oil. For the vast majority of owners, a dry sump is merely for bragging purposes. The 996 offers a larger, gated sump for those that need/want more. If you really are a track junkie, then a GT3 really is a better choice.
Mine has run well, never broken down, no issues. It has a wonderful balance between fuel mileage and performance, between road holding and compliance. I did the IMS bearing upgrade. So what?
But....I guess, complaining gives people something to post.
Just so we're clear, I'm delighted with the design of the interior, and I would not want it to be any more posh. The less so, in fact, the better. My comment is more about tactility than amenities. Early 911s were austere (as is my particular 996) but mostly quite rugged and meant for everyday use.
I
do
think full leather makes a big difference. I think if you had an early example with the standard interior, you'd wish for sturdier plastic paints, slightly thicker and better grained vinyls, that sort of thing, precisely because the rest of the car is going to last a long time.
I'm not a 996 hater.
You've been a thoughtful, well-informed enthusiast. I've always looked forward to your posts.
I had never seen a console-delete. It looks traditional, simple and clean.
Not sure if it would work on my cab with the factory subwoofer. Will take a look, though.
I am constantly amazed how spacious the interior feels. I recently sat in a few BMW's & Audi's and felt claustrophobic by comparison. I'm not a fan of imposing & complex consoles.
Thanks, RF5BPilot.
Here's mine. I subsequently went back to graphite mats, and like it much better now.
Anybody got any suggestions about the non-smoker tray? Only when I look at a photo do I see what a sore thumb it is in black...
I imagine Eric at Bumperplugs would do it, but I haven't had the impression that he loves dealing with Canadian customers. Interesting idea, though.
Thanks for the comment, Barn996. Maybe I'm overthinking it. Originally, I thought it made sense because it contained switchgear, like the dash horseshoe does. Just seems to jump out at me in pictures.
Anyway, sorry for the thread hijack!
I find the standard interior just fine. I prefer to have a simple interior design and huge brakes as opposed to say a BMW M3 which needs a major $$$$ brake upgrade if you are going to track it. Come to think of it, my F 430 had an interior which put the equally priced GT2 to shame, on the other hand unless you invested in the $23,000 (where I live) ceramic brake option, the car could not do 2 laps before it ran out of brakes.
Maybe it is the standard interior they are complaining about. I know my friend with a 'standard' interior is always drooling over the 'full leather' interior on mine. The 'full leather' option seems pretty OK to me, so I am happy with it.
Mine is pretty loaded on the interior:
All Leather Lining;
Supple Leather Seats & Trim;
Soft Leather Rear;
Embossed Head Rests
Maybe that's why I like it so much.
full leather here and I love it as well. A touch of carbon also helps but it just get ridiculously expensive. Adding 10k on interior upgrade on a 90k car, that is the problem. Just put full leather on all cars already !
Count me in with the group that thinks the console is confining, somewhat claustrophobic, and unnecessary. The above "console delete" pictures above remind us that beauty is often in the simplicity of design.
Are you going to get rid of the owners manual ledge under your steering wheel then? It has the plastic pop in and out rivets holding it on. Just poke the little center tabs in then remove. Pull them outwards so that you poke them in to the flush position to lock back in place.
PS what do you hide your beer behind if you get pulled over? I don't drink.
