Don't go to VisionMotorsports in SoCal

Don't go to Vision Motorsports in SoCal. I got a tour of the place a few months back and they seemed very willing to help me. I had them do an alignment on my car last week and I'm disappointed. I gave them a printout of exactly the type of driving I'd be doing and told them to call me to discuss the settings in order to suit my style. They never called me....they just did the work. I wanted -1 degree of camber up front and -1.5 degrees in the back. They got -1.1 and -1.4 up front so I called to discuss this with them but they won't let their alignment technician talk with customers. Then they said they're too busy to discuss this with me because they're getting ready for a race even after I told them I was thinking about getting coilovers installed. My car also feels kind of weird at hgh speed now (100mph). It feels like its wandering left and right now. Maybe the front toe? This sucks because these guys are 5 minutes from my work. Anyone else know a shop that can help me? Frustrated, Jake

-1.1 f and -1.4 r are good baselines. are you sore they didn't get it exactly right? are you using the stock shocks with lowered springs? that's probably contributing to wandering at higher speeds. you're welcome to drive my car when it's back from the repairs. i'm in in so. orange county. it's much better than stock but still falls short of my ideal (GT3). look into Andial next time you need specialized work.

You wrote that you got 1.1 and 1.4 up front. So are the two front wheels different, or is it a typo and you meant 1.1 up front and 1.4 in the back? If the two front wheels are that much different, I'd try to get them to tweak it after the race weekend. If its front and rear, I'd not bitch about it, its not like you can tell the 1/10th degrees difference. And Vision is a well respected race shop, so they probably are rushing to get ready for a race. You post seems a bit premature and over the top IMO. I have no affiliation with Vision. I know a couple of guys in POC who use them on their race cars and who are very happy.

I have heard from a couple people that Vision used to be a decent shop, but their work has gone into the toilet. Take that comment for what it's worth, because it is simply heresay. It's about a 40 minute drive from Vision, but I use Glenn's Porsche Service in San Dimas. The shop is very small and almost looks dumpy. I was actually scared to take my $100K+ car to them. But I did a little poking around, and I saw that they have 2 matching $130K+ GT3 cup cars that they race, and they work (almost) exclusively on OBDII cars. If you talk with Glenn (the owner) or either of the 2 techs, you will immediately feel confident that they know exactly what they are doing. They do handle normal everyday work, but their specialty (given the nature of the Cup cars) is in race-prepping cars. They did my exhaust and coilover installation + corner balance, and I could not be happier. Also, their labor rate is only $75/hr, which is a good $50-$75 less than a dealer.

I have had excellent set ups by Darren Nishimura well known with in the club guys. He used to work at Johnson Wheel Alignment for Steve Alarcon, a well know club racer/suspension guy. Most of the guys I have spoken to prefer Darrens set up. He's moved on from Johnsons a few years ago and opened up his own place. West End Alignment in Gardena California off of Vermont and the 91 fwy. I highly recommend him. Many a club guys have been searching for him since his departure from Johnson's.

No....the difference is in the fronts. The back was pretty close to -1.5 in both wheels. My disappointment was solely in their refusal to discuss the setup with me. They couldn't be bothered because of their schedule with their race cars. I guess they're making more money from racing than from paying customers like me.

What were the toe settings? That is what may be causing the wandering you feel.

I second Oak's comments. Darrin setup my car brillantly, and for a fraction of what others quoted.

Here's the printout. Looks like front toe is .07 left and .05 degrees right. Is positive out or in?

That is all totally wrong. Porsche gives specs in degrees and minutes. Your alignment was done to these specs (sort of) but in decimal degrees. There is insufficient toe-in front and rear.

the modern machines use decimal degrees, it's pretty normal. others may know better, but that's pretty much how i reset my gt2, and the factory spec you show is pretty standard, it;s the factory setting for my gt2, any one else?. you're toed for high speed, not cornering. i think r/l are set different to account for your body weight? not sure.. my rf camber is set -1.0 degree and my l/f is set -0.8. same offset. my total f toe is .14 degree at 0.7 per side. i can't read your rf toe but i hope it's equal to L. my rear figures match yours. Jake, i just went thru this exercise on the gt2 trying to solve high speed instability. some ideas: 1] try oak's guy darren, he is well respected. not very nice that your shop won't talk; they certainly don't desrve your business 2] what pavement did your car hunt/feel twitchy on? grooves, ruts, crosswinds can mislead you as they did me on rte 225 in Nevada. 3] what are your bars set at? this may be dumb if C2's dont have them. but in my gt2 bars need to be one setting higher in rear to remove understeer, and if the bars are set really high like 4 or 5, as andial did to me, the whole car feels like a sherman tank.. or a block of wood... helps reduce roll on the track but since they also stiffen the car it actually diminishes your times on bumpy curvy stuff 'cause you bounce sideways on bumps alot. 4] if you really feel it at only 100, that is very scary; i didnt notice my problem until 140-165...

Watt, 1] OK..will do 2] Pavement was pretty smooth.....but probably need more seat time to verify. 3] My bars are not adjustable. I'm contemplating getting some new sway bars. Oddly enough, it feels like I have a lot more body roll with either the new alignment settings or the new rear S03's (both done at same time). However, the balance front to rear feels very good now. No tendency to oversteer or understeer (at slower speeds anyways). As far as the allowing for body weight...I didn't think of that.....but it seems excessive at 1.4 degrees. Maybe not. Thanks for writing.

Jake, Hhmm, it sounds like there is something up with Vision. So I'd second trying Darrin, he set up my Boxster while he was still working for Steve Alarcon in Torrance. Did a good job.

1,1 and 1,4 on teh same axle!!!! sorry but thgis is nOT an alligment. this is a misalligment. Eitehr the guy is not at the shop and somebody else inexperienced with this kind of work did that or???? i don't know but tehy must fix it for free or bring them to the court. This is a porsche not a truck! Konstantin

Jake: I've heard several people recommand this guy. He's suppositly the best alignment guy in LA area. His name is Steve Alacon( not sure of spelling) phone number [phone removed]. I've heard that you better make an appointment. good luck, get the alignment right before the 14th. Peter Liao

Yeah.. that guy that Craig mentioned in his post in Torrance. Peter Liao

Darren "was" the Porsche specialist at Johnsons. If you had taken your Porsche to Johnsons for suspension work, most likely Darren had worked on it. The few people I have spoken to, have mentioned that they preferred Darren set ups to Steves. If you take your Porsche to Johnson's for suspension tweaks, most likely it will be someone other than Steve that will be doing the job. Give Darren a call, West End Alignment: [phone removed] Theres something to be said about the old school way of actually measuring and double checking. Not relying on machines.

Thanks Oak for the insight. I am consider doing some suspension work and would of just gone to Steve If I did'nt know this. Peter

Jake, Give Vision another call. Only talk to Dwayne, and tell him you disappointed with the outcome. Ask for specifics of why/how the results were what they are. Requested alignment setting can't always be achieved but there is usually a good reason why, a shop should explain this to you, present options. possible solutions and compromises, and give you a car that handles and tracks the best it can for your apllication be it track or street. You've invested money with him already, give him the chance to make it right. Laura Hergesheimer MotorSports

Laura, I did that just before you wrote this and talked with Dwayne. He was more helpful to me and took some time to explain things to me. I am still disappointed that it took so much effort to get a little info out of them. He did try to make things right, but I won't go back there. I know I can be difficult sometimes, but I really don't think I asked for anything out of the ordinary and I was never rude. Shops like this should remember that every Porsche owner has the potential for spending a lot of money. When and if I decide to do that, I'll be spending my money elsewhere.

No problem Peter, I realized that most people don't hang around and actually watch the guys actually wrench on their car. I realized that's what most people assumed that Steve is actually working all the Porsches. Actually, the only Porsche I ever see him working on is his own.

If you do go to Darrin, bring a book (epecially if you're getting a cornerweighting) because you'll been in your car for a few hours. Darrin spent ~ 4 hrs. on my car cornerweighting and doing a 4 wheel alignment. Time, and money, well spent! This reminds me, I need to go back to him and have touch up my alignemnt... bouncing off burms for the last 1 1/2 yrs has had it's effect...

Hubert, that's funny, yes bring a book! I can't say enough good things about Darrins work, he is one of the most conscientious, meticulous suspension guys I have come across. He will go over every square inch and let you know what could be done to improve your set up. Wow 11/2 years since your tune up and you've been boing off burms! That's another note to be taken, for some reason his alignments seem to hold up longer. Anyways he's a little known treasure, if your into your suspension. When it comes right down to it, that's what makes the difference, right?

Oak, you're right. Darrin doesn't use any fancy equipment, this that... just takes his time, and charges a very fair price. Yah, my alignment has held up well, and I've been known to tackle burms here and there, but now it's straying... then again it's probably my own fault (started after I installed my sparco wheel). But, I'm sure it could be "freshened" up. Regards, Hubert. ps: Darrin certainly is a secret... hopefully by us telling everyone, he won't get him overbooked.

This is a very upsetting thread I just had my $395 alignment done at Vision a few weeks ago with a VERY similar experience. I WILL NEVER go back... there is so much more to my story that I prefer to keep out of the public eye, it is scary to say the least. I dealt directly with Dwayne too, It would shock you the way I was treated.

I hope that includes a corner balance job with an alignment, right?

Nope! I had a Racers Edge caster blocks and Charley arms installed at a competing shop. One of the caster tabs had seized they charged me $260 for the alignment the rest was to take the caster block apart sand the bolt causing the tab to seize and reinstall. I was desperate.

Wow! Terrible business practice, taking advantage of people that are desperate. Also they probably knew that you had the stuff installled at a competing shop. I had a similar experience with Wheelenhancements. Instead of trying to gain your business with service and integrity knowing you are a client at the competition, they would rather argue and ignore you and over charge.

OAK you think that is bad it only got worse... I can't put it in writing in a forum like this but the story got 100X worse and you are on the right path competing shops...and more importantly competing So Cal race shops

Egos get involved. I can see it now. Why is so hard to do the right thing? I guess they think that they can screw you around with out consequence. We'll I'm sure they lost a potentially good customer in the future and I'm sure you will ever go back. Referral's are out of the question. They could care less. Apathy.

Damn!........... Sabotage? Now that's going to extreme! I would be hunting heads!

Oak, i must add that jack and i have had multiple reasonable experiences with wheel enhancement, i know you did not... mine was not perfect but quite acceptable, and certainly better than my alignment experience with andial [not that i dont think andial is wonderful for most aircooled work]