Who has been screaming higher viscosity for years ??

Who has been screaming higher viscosity oil for years ?? Me !!! With 28,000 GM engines failing due to 0W-20 oil and having recalled 600,000 engines it dwarfs the m96 IMSB issue... The problem was the crankshaft surface was not "polished" enough to be able to run such thin oil ...and switching to a 40 weight oil on the engines not yet completely damaged can protect them so they don't fail... Oil Viscosity is the main protection for the engine in all operating conditions.....The additives like ZDDP, Moly, Nano Particles ect, will protect in the Boundery regime ( 0-100rpm) and in the mixed regime ( 1000-3500rpm) but in the hydrodynamic regime ( above 3500rpm) only the viscosity ( MOFT ) is the protection....the anti-wear/anti-friction additives don't have any effect in the Hydrodynamic regime... Also as temperature rises the transitional RPM's from Boundary to Mixed to Hydrodynamic regimes shift to higher RPM.s as the temperature increases so a higher viscosity oil is needed to stay in the Hydrodynamic regime for Track work .. IF you are Tracking you M96 I suggest a higher viscosity like 15W-50, 20w-50 or even 10w-60 high quality oil ... Lake seems surprised by these new events ( but not me) and the other video makes a few factual errors but otherwise good video's You Tube You Tube

Do you have a problem with 5W-50 ? I'm switching this weekend to Motul 300v competition 5w-50

So, on-topic / off-topic� I have a 2016 GMC Yukon w 150k that takes 0w-20. What would you recommend I use instead?

Quotes source post: 20070495

From what I've seen, Porsche now recommends 5W-50. I just changed my oil to 5W-40 because I couldn't find the 5W-50 anywhere around me.

So Chevy is covering up poor quality control on crankshaft finish by raising the oil thickness?! PT3 you are correct Chevy engines suck and so does Chevy! On a side note about viscosity I have a Honda Civic Type R that Honda says run a 0W-20. First oil change I did I was shocked at how thin the oil was when drained! It poured out like water. Much thinner than any oil I've ever seen. Personally I don't care about fuel economy with my performance cars.

Me too.... Being of the firm belief that thin oil recommendations were primarily due to CAFE possibly at the expense of longevity, for years I would always research what oils were recommended in non-US markets and use that, e.g. 5w-40 in my S2000, 0w-40 in almost everything else. The picture has gotten a bit cloudier as I believe modern engines are better able to cope with thin oils over time, but I still default to thicker after warranty. I am an unapologizing thickie. I blame a youth misspent around leaky Triumphs, MG's, Rovers and Cessnas.....

Quotes source posts: 20070431, 20070673

Ya, most techs know this is true for all engines but are hesitant to go against manufacturer recommendations that are mostly in place solely for mpg requirements. Had a friend that works at the dealership. He argued with me my new Ram Limited 5.7 Hemi will put up a cel if heavy weight oil is used since the cam timing/cyl dropping variable garbage works off of oil pressure and the heavy weight oil screws with it. I said not in mine...lol. After towing a 10,000lb RV threw the desolate AZ desert at 75+mph and watching the oil temps go from �220>235>250 and still going up and oil pressure going down, till i slowed down, and temp went back to 220�. Since then been running 5-40. Oil temp stays low now. Dumped the 0-20 10,000 miles ago and no cel yet. Saw a video of a new 2025 ZR1 vette 1000hp+ passing a VW so fast the VW stalled when the Corvette SUKED all the air out of its intake....

Yeah that video doesn’t show how long the Vette will last before it catches fire or explodes the VW shut down because of self preservation lmfao

Quotes source posts: 20070495, 20070548

Motul 300v Competition 5w-50 is an excellent oil and better then any 0w-40 I will assume you live in a climate that doesn't go below 0 degrees and that you are not pulling a heavy trailer/boat and would suggest a 10w-30 will give better protection than the 0w-20 I could give more exact /better recommendations if I knew where you lived, what type of driving you do, what is your exact oil pressure at 4k RPM / at what oil temperature/ on what viscosity oil.... There are probably 50 different viscosity's of engine oils ranging from 0w-8 to a straight 70 weight....and all have their intended purposes ...but rest assured that the super lightweights are for fuel mileage... My comments are mainly pertaining to protecting the main and rod bearings since that is where most failure happen on the M96/7 engines that are driven hard... It bothers me greatly when I see someone come in here with a catastrophic Failure on an 96/7 that could have been avoided... Other aspects of the engine like cams/lifters chains pumps ect, are not as dependent on oil Viscosity but rather are more dependent on the oil chemistry ie. the additive package because they run a lot more in the Boundary and Mixed Lubrication Regimes and hardly ever get into the Hydrodynamic Regime... Engine bearing clearances have not really changed that much in 50 years...I remember building a Dodge Dart engine for my grandmother and setting the bearing clearances a .001" because I knew I wanted it to last a very long time and that she would just putt around in it....lol...That was just common practice and engines are not any tighter than that today..... Heat is one of the main killers of engines and has a direct effect on the oil Viscosity...The hotter any oil gets the thinner it is period...You have a Minimum Oil Film Thickness ( MOFT) and a Maximum Oil Film Thickness .... As it pertains to Heat :: Viscosity is the most important aspect of any oil selection, next is oil type ( group 1 to group 5 ) the higher the group number the higher heat it can handle..... next is the additive package of anti-friction/anti-wear which is important in the Boundary and Mixed Regimes.. What is most important about high Viscosity oils in the M96/7 engines is the effect it has on the Integrated Dry Sump System...the IDSS is unique to the M96 as it has three pumps that pump oil.. All of which are Positive Displacement Pumps which means they pump a specif amount on each revolution. This extremely important.. The main oil pump can pump WAY more oil than the engines needs and is "regulated" by the by-pass valve.. When the Viscosity of the oil is too low by selecting the wrong viscosity oil or by temperature reaching high temps , then main oil pump will pump oil out of the Sump too Much too Fast and the Sump oil level will be too low and suck air killing the engine... Remember the oil pressure/Viscosity is the "resistance to flow" We do not want a high flow of oil leaving the Sump !!! PS- Also FWIW the Chevy zr1 and the Mustang Coyote both recommend a XW - 20 oil but for the Track option they recommend an XW-50

A GM quality problem does not mean that 0w20 is fundamentally bad. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies I will continue to trust the engineers that actually design the products.

Quotes source post: 20071764

I agree, if you live in Antarctica and putt back and forth to work 0W-20 is the best oil.... But nothing anywhere close to that is going in my M96.... The reason I bring it up is just to educate because I think people are using way too thin oil in most cases because of the push from Manufacturers to achieve for fuel mileage..because they can get away with it statistically speaking..

One issue is going to be sourcing approved oil at a slightly high weight. I.e my 2020 Golf GTI need VW504/507 approved oil which only comes in a xW-30 (0 or 5W is all I've found so far). So if you wanted to go to a xW-40 there isn't a choice. You'd want to avoid oil that might introduce LSPI. I'm not sure what else approval VW504/507 would bring to the table thoughts?

Quotes source post: 20070495

In my track only 3.4 I only use 300v 15w-50

Yeah Skip, you were right. My engine and oil tests seem to like DI50 on the track as well as street much better than DI40, and DI40 is a very good oil which i run in my Audis fir the street. Hoping Driven releases DI60 to test.

Quotes source post: 20071819

Perhaps off-the-wall, but I have a 3.0 Straight-6 Diesel, year 2020 with 22k miles. All of this oil thickness is of interest and also worries me. Do any of these higher/lower viscosity oils pertain the diesels? I am in cold climate (Idaho mountains near Yellowstone NP) and pull a 5000# trailer a few times a year, mostly in fall and summer. Thoughts? TIA, cheers.

How do you feel about Castol Edge 5w50 for street use?

Quotes source posts: 20071859, 20072071, 20072208, 20072402

If you are still in warranty you are kinda stuck with the OEM spec vw504/507 if you want to remain under the vw's $$ umbrella ....The Vw504/507 are low viscosity, low SAPS ( low Sulphated Ash, Phosphorous, Sulfur) Low Calcium oils, 504 is for DI gasoline engines and 507 is for DI diesel engines...The low SAPS has nothing to do with protecting the engine, in fact the engine likes SAPS, it is for making the catalytic converter or Diesel particulate filter last longer....Low calcium is to prevent LSPI in the DI gas engine but diesel enginesdo not suffer from LSPI...calcium is a detergent to help the engine clean..so a different detergent has to be used.... While it still in warranty I would just change the oil a lot soonerthan the factory 15000 miles so that the viscosity doesn't get way low before changing.. Driven DI40 is a 5w-40 that meets European ACEA C3 specs for low SAPS and is designed with low Calcium for direct injected gas engines...( no LSPI) with a little boost in viscosity You are doing the right thing my man !! I have been noticing !! Yes we need a DI60 , hope it happens.... Yes that little 3.0 Duramax uses the lightweight Dexos D 0w-20....If you are still under warranty just change it very very often before it has time to degrade down to 0w-10;;lol IF you are out of warranty switch to the Dexos 2 Low SAPS oil with a 5w-30 or 10w-40 viscosity ...even the 10w-40 oil is recommended down to -22F .....I don't think it gets close to that in the Idaho Mountains does it??

Quotes source post: 20071502

Thanks for the insight! Yeah it�s my wife�s GMC we use it to haul the kids around to and from school etc. we�re in Jacksonville florida so lately temps are near the 90s. Winter it can get down to the thirty�s rarely actually freezing. With a 150k on the Yukon and the Porsche in the shop that sucker HAS to keep running!

Driven racing DT40 5w-40 is what my motor gets.

Quotes source post: 20073204

me too!

Quotes source posts: 20072789, 20073204, 20073283

I like Castrol as a company,they were the first to use a Castor Bean oil in 1919 ( Castor Bean oil is a Natural Ester /vegetable oil with high viscosity and an attraction to heat) that is still used in some countries like South Afgrica and India and with growing interests today ... I have used Castor Bean OIl exclusively in 2-strokes for 5 decades although it has been highly developed over the years and received much competition from group iv synthetics (PAO's) and group v synthetic Esters .. There are also some new developments in 2023 in Dubai on Castor Bean Oil with "Nano" Copper Oxide particles that will probably be the future of Motor OIls replacing the current available Oils..Keep your eye out !! https://www.mdpi.com/2571-6255/6/12/467 The Castrol Edge 5w-50 is a IV-V Group PAO/Ester full SAPS and has a better viscosity than Mobil ! 0w-40.and will be great for high RPM's on the street , just watch for oil pressure drops in high g corners in high heat.. DT40 is group IV-V PAO/Ester full SAPS +Moly with a slightly better viscosity than Mobil 1 0w-40....and will have no issues with high RPM's on the Street..but again just watch for oil pressure drops in high G corners.. I'm old enough to have seen when car manufactures did not tell owners WHAT viscosity oil to use, they just included a viscosity chart that included ALL the viscosity grades available at the time and told owners HOW to select the appropriate viscosity... To put it simply , and I don't care what the "internet "says...engines are not "built to REQUIRE 0w-20 oil"..they are"built to TOLERATE 0w-20 oil "...Nowadays the EPA put the pressure on the manufacturers in terms of $$ penalties ,, and the Manufactures put pressure on the owners to use certain specs oils... ( or deny warranty)....The viscosity and additives are pushed on them....The engines are not "built tighter clearance wise" they are built "less sloppy clearance wise"...therefore can TOLERATE a very low viscosity oil and the additives (low SAPS) are to make emission controls ( catalytic converters and particulate filters) LAST LONGER ..not the engine.. This is nothing new ,engine builders have ALWAYS built TiGHT engines for Grandmaw ( 0.001" clearance) and LOOSE engines(0.003") for hot rodders/high performance/RaceCars.......the manufacturers have just recently started to build "less sloppy" engines as a whole....but when I look at the actual bearing specs for the range of tolerance (0.0015") , they are still pretty sloppy compared to what a precision machinist can do.. For sure a lower viscosity oil CAN show a fewer parts per million wear particles in a used oil analysis, but this is of no consequence if you lose oil pressure and/or experience thermal runaway/spun bearing like we see so many of.. Just fuel for thought .....

Quotes source post: 20071764

Lol, like the IMS engineers?

I only run 10w30 or 40 (whichever is available at the time) Castrol Edge Euro car formula in all my cars. VW runs 0w20 for fuel milage......and it's complete BS. We bought a brand new Tuareg in 2021 and it used 1 quart of oil every 1200 miles.....brought it back several times to the dealer and they said it's normal......I call BS. The oil light would come on and you would have to pull over and add a quart. We sold it to CarMax still under warranty. Wasn't going to deal with that kind of BS!

Quotes source post: 20071764

For sure, trust the engineers. But they arent the problem. Its the business side of the company that is trying to cut costs, keep the regulators happy and turn a profit. Easy to solve for Porsche"s business decisions made on every model. Especially easy on the M96. 1. Upgrade your IMSB 2. Ugrade your AOS 3. Keep your water pump fresh 4. Run a better grade of higher viscosity oil and change it often.

Glad to find this thread. I recently posted an "HPDE upgrade" thread for my 987 about what should I upgrade before heading to the track. One of the items in question is obviously the oil (It currently has Mobil 1 0w-40). There seems to be mixed opinions, as in this thread, some people saying trust the engineers and go with what Porsche recommended and others saying use something thicker. This sent me into a long search reading/watching information on oil, viscosity, etc. My 2019 Accord calls for a 0w-20 which I always felt was too thin. I change it often so it hasn't been a problem, but apparently that 1.5l turbo engine is having issues with fuel dilution and some engines are failing, especially those driven for short miles that don't have a chance to burn it off. I read in several places that a lot of the wear happens at startup so having an oil that is fluid enough to quickly oil the engine is good. Since you can get oils from 0w-15w commonly, at what point do those oil flow similarly based on ambient temperature. Most manufacturers use bar graphs to show a range of temperatures, but I would love something more specific. As an example, I don't drive the Cayman in the winter, so if I am only driving in warmer weather, say 60F and above, would a 15w-50 the oil be thin enough at startup to quickly lube the engine at startup compared to a 0W. It seems that a 15w would give better protection over a 0W at startup, but only if it can get into the engine at the same speed. Is there a chart comparing viscosity of different winter wieght oils at various ambient temperatures in say 10 degree increments? After my research, I'm thinking to use a 15w-50 or 5w-50 for the Cayman S that will get me through a few HPDE days, about 2,000 miles, and 4-6 months. I just order a bunch of 0w40w Mobil1 but now seeing the issues that the thinner oils are having, especially the Accord with oil dilution, I think I can use that for that car.

Quotes source post: 20076525

If you havent already, find the DI40/DT40 thread and read thru it. Plenty of virgin and used oil tests on plenty of oils, as well as methodology on why you may want to consider a higher quality oil that can better handle the high temps of the track.

Quotes source post: 20076931

Thanks. I think someone posted that in my upgrade thread. Looking at The DL/DT 50 oils and the Motul for the Porsche. I think the 0w-40 will be okay for the Accord, but want to do a little more research on that since I will be going from a 0w-20.

This chart from @SlakkerRacingDev speaks volumes about what Skip @Porschetech3 has been talking about regarding viscosity and temps. There are good oils and there are great oils. Some oils you should only run on the street, other only on the track and others can do double duty on both street and track. My preference has always been double duty with alot of oil changes. I used Millers for a long time and then went to DI40 then DI50. Alot of other great oils that can do the job as well. Ends up being your call. But I wouldn't suboptimize the oil you use because oil is everything to an engine.

That's a good chart to compare some high viscosity oils..since viscosity is the most important property when selecting an oil, followed by the type/group,followed by the additives... The group/type are only important in very high heat as the group/types properties determine when high temp break-down occurs.. The additives are important in start-up and slow speeds ( boundary and mixed Regimes ) or when the viscosity gets too low/thin... Some worry about cold starts on high viscous oils or preach the use of very thin oils ...here is a graph/chart showing the comparison of 10w-60 Motul 300v Lemans ..with a typical 0w-20 oil.... The charts also show typical 5w-30 and 20w-50 but on the "graph" those are deleted to keep the comparison to 10w-60 and 0w-20 .... 10w-60 and 0w-20 are equal in viscosity in these temps 0w-20 is not even close to having a robust film thickness at these temps Remember that oil film "thickness" and oil film "strength" are not the same thing...the "strength" becomes very important when the "thickness" is thin/failed... but on the m96 the thickness very much controls the oil flow/level from /in the Sump...

Quotes source post: 20077309

Thank you. This is exactly what I was looking for. Would you mind sharing the other half of the chart above 0f? would also love to see where the other viscositys are falling if you can easily add them back in. For a summer car it seems the 60 would be best. Any disadvantages to using a heavier oil other than loss off mpg?

Quotes source post: 20077328

Qualitatively speaking, the heavier, I.e. more viscous oil trips the pressure limiting valve at a lower flow rate than oil of lower viscosity, which results in less flow to the bearings. Since it is oil flow and not pressure that creates the wedge of oil that, through hydrodynamic pressure separates the rotating shaft from the bearing surface, too heavy an oil could result in reduced lubrication as there is too little oil to form said wedge.

Quotes source post: 20076988

Ideally you would want to perform a used oil analysis on your Accord�s 0W-20 to see where it�s falling short. But there are other considerations for selecting oil in your case. -your Accord is direct-injected, so you�ll want to choose a suitable oil for that -depending on where you live, and your oil change interval, you can move up from a 0W to either a 5W or 10W. For example, if your oil change interval is every 3 months, you could move up to 10W if your ambient temperatures never drop below 50 degrees Fahrenheit. I think moving up to a 40 from a 20 may be too big a jump. I would switch to a 30 first, and analyze the used oil to see whether it�s meeting your needs. Only then would I consider moving to the 40.

Quotes source post: 20077417

This is true in theory ,but remember there are much much thicker oil and greases than a 60 weight,and clearance does matter a lot,...in the case for a 60 weight viscosity oil ,have you ever seen how much oil will flow from a rod bearing at 50 PSI warmed up? IF you had I don't think you would believe it was not enough too cool or form the hydrodynamic wedge.. The math for a 2" rod bearing at 130C temp (12cst 60 weight) at 50 PSi is a flow of 0.00071 cubic feet per second...( =20cc) ...per rod bearing ....20cc x 6 rod bearings =120cc + 7 main bearings = 260cc .....about 1/3 quart per second then on the m96 we have 58 total clearances/leak paths...= ~ 1/2 quart per second min The disadvantages of the 50-60 weights on an m96 is a little lose of MPG and a little lose of HP ...the advantage is you won't lose the motor if you have the UAOS/UIDS and 12qts 50-60 weight full SAPS high quality oil...

Quotes source post: 20077328

You are trying to work me too hard...... ....lol....Here is a graph/chart/calculator where you can input your exact oils of interest with the viscosity at 40c and 100c and it will plot the CST at any/all temperatures to compare up to 4 different oils .. https://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html

Quotes source post: 20077597

Great resource, thanks for sharing!

Quotes source post: 20077716

No problem

Awesome thread this is why the 996 group are core of this list thank you all

Well it seems that we are all on the same page now....but just in case there are a couple of outliers, I propose a challenge .. Since the pertinent Data is posted for Motul Lemans 10w-60 ...(and also typical 0w-20 like recommended for a typical Toyota 4 cyl ) And the DATA shows 10w-60 as having a Kinematic Viscosity of ~ 9000cst to 12cst ( -25c to 130c ) I challenge anyone to post a KV cst number in that range that would NOT be seen in the Toyota 0w-20 in operation... And with that I will stop picking on GM for having to recall 600K engines with 28k failures for using a too thin 0w-20 oil in trucks and SUV's .. THE most important takeaway is that " Application dictates Viscosity" ....if you plan to run it hard use Higher Viscosity oil ..

There are no data presented that correlate viscosity with wear, it’s only assumed. The informative experiment would track used oil analyses of the different oil viscosities to see if metal content is changing (plus visuals of particulates in oil filter in worse-case scenario). On another, slightly off-thread comment, in shopping for a hybrid car recently, I was stunned to see 0W-8 recommended on one model. Go figure!

Quotes source post: 20087850

No, you are missing the whole point of this thread... This thread is about Viscosity Only. !!! There are many concepts of Tribology at play in an engine, My main objective is to educate to avoid the thermal runaway that is the cause of many many M96 engine catastrophic failures... The only data needed are to go back and see all the engines that "blew up" and had turned the crankshaft/rod "blue" due to thermal runaway... Wear and Friction are two totally different concepts...( although they do interact with one another ) Measuring wear in parts per million on a UOA has nothing to do with keeping an engine from having thermal runaway..... ZDDP is a very popular and inexpensive Anti-wear additive that actually increases Friction....... You can have a very thin oil with a lot of anti-wear additives that will have very low parts per million particles in the UOA but be very close to having thermal runaway..... Whereas a thicker/higher viscosity oil will be much farther away from thermal runaway even though it will be slightly higher Friction, the thicker Viscosity is somewhat self-regulating as the higher Friction will thin the oil to the MAXimum thickness, a thin oil operating at the MINimum thickness will NOT self-regulate...The VI's ( Viscosity Improvers) will not expand as fast as the oils thins with increased temperature/Friction.....Just ask GM ... IF you want to start a thread on wear we can, but for clarity we need to keep each thread topic separated so the complex topics can be explained and understood..

The thermal runaway that has killed so many m96 engines ( and is still killing them) is due to lack of lubrication. This is very plain to see on Forensic Analysis of the failed engines. If the crankshaft/Rod/ bearings have turned "blue" this can only be thermal runaway ...IF they are "not blue" then it could have been a failed Rod Bolt, or some other mechanical failure, but for sure if they are "Blue" it was lack of lubrication/thermal runaway.. Re-posting this again from another thread....note where Viscosity is mentioned several times... Remember that Viscosity is the most important property of engine oil and plays a dual-role on the M96, Not only does it keep a good robust oil film thickness for bearing protection but also keeps from having too much/fast oil flow out of the Integrated Dry Sump ... The most effective "bolt-on" ways to solve unstable oil pressure is ::: (1) more oil capacity .. 1 a. UAOS Track 1 b 996.1 dipstick 1 c Deeper Sump (2 )Oil control 2a UIDS 2b dual scavenge pumps 2 c 997 oil returns (3) . oil viscosity 3a, use thicker oil 50w-60w 3b center radiator 3c bigger CSF radiators 3d bigger oil cooler We learned a lot from the ****show of a thread on oil instability that lead to the invention of the UAOS Track Version which is the first/best "bolt-on" solution in over a decade ( Deeper Sumps were previously the first/best) ...and also started the development of the UIDS System......I continued the work with $4k Data Acquisition Equipment on am M96 on the Track to perfect the UIDS SYStem and to gain other insights into the oiling system of the M96... The 3 basic things that effect oil pressure stability (1) oil capacity (2) oil control (3) oil viscosity ..they are each important in stable oil pressure in different and dynamic ways that are not always so obvious...I'll give a simple brief overview of each without going deep into the Technical/Dynamic Physics (1) oil capacity.. This is pretty obvious that more oil is better at keeping from starving for oil but has always been a problem for the m96 and the ONLY thing you could do was just install a deeper oil sump ....due to smoking from inefficient AOS System the oil level was actually "lowered" in the 996.2 and 997.1 engines.... The development of the UAOS and then the UAOS Track Version over the last erveral years has allowed the oil levels to be raised continually ..originality to full levels then to 996.1 levels then to 1.5 to 2 qts over full levels...This made a HUGE difference when coupled with a deep sump as it provides up tp 4 qts additional oil available to the oil pump. (2) oil control This is where it gets really Dynamic because it is control of moving oil with pressures and Gravity forces in play that make it difficult to explain or follow because things are happening in tenths of a seconds and constantly changing over a wide range of variables.....But I will be brief and simple ( although not Technical) The oil baffles in the factory sump or x 51 baffles do not do a good enough job for every circumstance to keep oil in the center of the sump for the oil pick-up...During higth G or long turns the oil in the center of the sump will run out because The Sump is 14 inches wide ...the UIDS on the other hand has Twin Tunnel Port at each side of the 14 inch wide Sump and can pick-up from either side when G forces dictates or can use both at once ....So it is not trying to "control" the oil but rather switching to where the oil IS...and is always in the deepest/best oil available.... The main oil pump in the M96 is very large and capable of pumping much more oil than the engine needs and is capable of emptying the oil sump very quickly ..There are 58 leak paths/flow paths that are lubrication points the main oil pump delivers oil to ....This is the flow of oil out from the Sump to 58 different lubrication points so small increase in wear in each of these 58 points will have a dramatic effect on the flow of oil out of the Sump per second.....and also an increase in temperature of the oil will have a dramatic effect and the amount of oil that will leave the Sump per second.....and then this oil that has left the Sump must be returned back to the Sump before the level in the Sump has gotten so low that it effects oil pressures... The only thing I disagree with Slakker on is the oil fed IMS Solution...With 58 lubrication points adding one more to 59 will have a negligible effect on the flow as a whole....it's just math....I've added Turbo oil fed lines to oiling systems 40 years ago and has been done millions of times with no detrimental oiling effects......a small wear of only half a thousandths in 58 lubrication points will have a much much more effect on the oil flow.... (3) oil viscosity Oil viscosity plays a big role in the M96 much more than in standard Wet Sump engines, due to the Integrated Dry Sump System ....Typical Wet Sump engines use Gravity to drain the oil back to the Sump...pretty simple right ?? Gravilty is always at play to help or hurt the oil returning to the Sump....In the typical Wet Sumps the Gravity is ALL that is needed to get the oil back to the Sump, and the Sumps on Wet Sump Engines are always narrow width wise so just some simple baffles will work good........But on the M96 with the Integrated Dry Sump , it rely s on Gravity to return the oil from the crankshaft, but needs Scavenge pumps to return the oil from the heads/cams/lifters..ect...This is where the oil viscosity plays a big role..... The thinner the oil the more gets pumped into the heads and the more that HAS to be returned .. So the thicker the oil the more that STAYS in the Sump on the IDS .. This also means that the COOLER the oil the THICKER it is , ..So the cooler we can keep the oil the MORE there will be in the SUMP of the IDS .... So upgrading the Cooling System or Oil Cooler can have a big effect on the viscosity in a particular application even when using thick oil like 50w-60w... Recap :::: I broke these down to help explain them but they all actually work together and effect each other in some ways....These are just "bolt-ons" that can be done to CURE oil pressure issues.......IF you have not done ANY of these things then don't expect to have stable oil pressure in turns.....

Just one more thing to put a period on this thread.... Here is an exert from The Engineers Handbook on Journal Bearings ( Main and Rod Bearings, also Cam Bearings and the IMS Solution if you have that)..that mentions the general Minimum CST and the Maximum/Optimum CST for Journal Bearings at Operating Temperatures.. Another method of determining the proper viscosity grade is by applying minimum and optimum viscosity criteria to a viscosity-temperature plot. A generally accepted minimum viscosity of the oil at the operating temperature for journal bearings is 13 cSt , for high speed bearings although some designs allow for an oil as thin as 7 or 8 cSt at the operating temperature The optimum viscosity at operating temperature is 22 to 35 cSt , for moderate-speed bearings if no shock loading occurs. The optimum viscosity may be as high as 95 cSt for low-speed, heavily loaded or shock-loaded journal bearings... If you don't know what CST is then go back and read this whole thread again as many times as it takes and look at the charts/graphs .. The 13 CST is almost exactly what I prescribed for our M96 engines for up to 130C OperatingTemperature ..

Quotes source post: 20074077

This is still in place, just don't buy suburban soccer mom/empty nester cars. Civic Type R's for example have a table - actually, if you're outside the USA a fair few cars' manuals give you a table.

Quotes source post: 20090883

Yea but the problem is that even if the Viscosity Table is given, people will ignore it when the oil cap says 0w-20 on it, and the Factory Approved Oil Spec is only available in one grade, and owners want to go strictly by the book thinking they are doing whats best for the engine and wallet.....Then that same customer with a 1/2 Ton Pick-up that if you pull a 10k lb Camper over the Smoky Mountains you may be in for big trouble... With 600K engines getting recalled and if they haven't already experienced thermal runaway damage, they get a new 0w-40 oil cap..and a load of thicker oil...

They will defer to whatever the dealer service department says to use, and only change it when they are told to change it, which is usually a very long time interval. Then they trade the car in on another and repeat the cycle. Honda, Porsche, etc, its all the same cycle. 20 years later we all realize the mega mistakes made with the factory recommendations. These engines are so easy to keep running strong. If only...

Quotes source post: 20091135

Yea right ......15,000 miles for 996, 20,000 miles for 997..same engine...because the Factory says so ..........then they dropped it to 12,000 miles for some reason.....lol

Quotes source post: 20091058

Ya, thats the problem with epa/carb compliance that manufacturers have to comply with if they want to sell here. But that is not what the engines desire for longevity when getting thrashed on. Lucky the motorsports industry doesn't have such strict regs. My 4 stroke 120 mph screamer Snowmobile requires PS4 5w-50 oil. Most guys I know with Corvettes are not using the recommended 'skunk ****' oil. jmo

Quotes source post: 20091308

Yep, I wonder if the EPA/CARB feels sorry for GM right now ??..

I was at Wally World today and walked to the auto oil section . The only 50wt they had was Mobil 1 15w50 . I was not surprised as most folks aren't using this weight when they should . I have been using 5w40 Liqui Moly synthoil for several years in my 986 and 996 . Both weekend fun cars with runs through the mountains . This thread has got me thinking maybe I should consider a 5w50 or 15w50 , it gets quite hot here in north Georgia . I have the UAOS on my 996 along with a 2 qt extended sump . The 986 has regular AOS and .5 qt extended sump . Both cars have 3 radiators and both have FSI engines . I have enough LM on hand for one more oil change on both cars . Ptech3 what do you think ? Stick with 5w40 LM or move up to a 50 weight ?

What oil did Jake Raby say you should run in those engines? That's your answer.

Quotes source post: 20091670

As oil formulas have changed over the years so have Jake's recommendations. First it was Brad Penn . Then DT40 . Then within the past 2 years LM 2040/2041 . And most recently he stated DI40 or DI50 . However those only come in quart containers . I prefer 5l jugs so I can refill with old oil and recycle . Hence my question to Ptech .

Quotes source posts: 20091423, 20091817

Very few things are "adjustable" on our 996 cars and newer, unlike the old muscle cars.....The suspension is very adjustable from just comfort cruising to full on Track worthy and everything in between ...And with all we now know, and the products available the Lubrication System is "very adjustable"....... From (1) Oil Capacity ;;OEM 8.75 qts to 12 qts..and everything in between .(2) Oil Control ;;from stock OEM to UIDS and everything in between... (3)Viscosity::From 0w-40 to 20w-60 .and everything in between.Plus additional Viscosity from Center Radiators , bigger CFS Radiators,.Larger Oil Coolers ....... We have a lot of adjustability of the Lubrication System.. Georgia has similar Temps to Bama.. I still stand with for the "most protection" . UOAS/UIDS -12 qts -20w-60 ( if your winter temps allow)-Plus all the Cooling upgrades available.. I still hear all the time..."yea the UIDS is better but costs $$$" ..and " But I can get the OEM AOS for $145", and " Motul 300v cost way more than Mobil 1 " ect...but what can I say ?? There are lots of "in betweens" that you can "get by " with.......... I know Jake is very meticulous on the bearing clearance of his engines..I know he opens up the clearance on the main and rods as he should...and he keeps the top end tight with all new parts as he should..even puts new lifter cradles in them to keep the top end tight...I don't know everything he does nor do I need to, But I have helped several FSI engines with unstable oil pressure on turns... @996C438 Your FSI motor has Nicksil Cylinders so "moly" is not a necessity like it would be on OEM Cylinders.....I think the Mobil 1 15w-50 will protect better than any 40W...( and I am not talking about ppm on a UOA.....rather failure from sudden death/thermal runaway)

You mention filling 12 quarts. Is this specific to the 09+? I've had several posts saying to only fill to the bottom line or one below top for track use in my 07 CS. Is your recommendation to fill with more oil to avoid oil Starvation, thermal runaway, and use the UAOS to deal with the problem that more oil causes?

Quotes source post: 20092232

No, everything I say is pertaining to 97-2008 M96/7 engines in Carrera, Boxster, and Cayman, they are all the same architect .......2009 + engines don't count here.. To be able to run 12 qts oil you MUST have UAOS Track Version and UIDS ( or Deep Sump) and a healthy engine ( proven healthy by passing a blow-by test ) Your 2007 Cayman S Factory oil level is 8.75 qts...and the recommendation of people saying not to even use this much due to the inadequate/inefficient OEM AOS System.......

Does anyone know what Porsche dealers are currently using for 996 oil changes, M1 0W-40 or the newer "Porsche Classic" 5W-50?

Quotes source post: 20092081

Appreciate the well thought out reply . I have read a lot of the oil threads out there so I have a decent knowledge base . But I wasn't 100 % sure on if going to a xw50 was the right move . You answered that so thank you . I will figure out what brand on my own via VOA and UOA . Again thank you .

Quotes source post: 20092312

Here is one to start. my choice for the 996 & 986 S after way too much head scratching;

Quotes source post: 20091377

Probably not. Hell, CARB will probably join in on the suit against GM for the cars now not meeting their advertised fuel economy ratings due to having to use a thicker oil.

Quotes source post: 20091817

I'll clarify that Jake recommended the LM 2040 as it had the best oil consumption, with some cars using OEM consumption levels even with no tops offs required over a full OCI. However, LM has been threatening to discontinue that oil and Jake did not like the LM Molygen product that replaced it. He's been really happy with the DI40 and prefers that over DT40. Some backstory. Brad Penn was an ARG brand and product. ARG sold the brand years ago to DA, so it is no longer made by ARG, so it is not the same product nor is it even made with the Pennsylvania crude that made Brad Penn what it is. Driven GP-1 is the closest thing to the old Brad Penn and is made by ARG - only difference is that it has added moly, where the old Brad Penn was not friction modified.

Quotes source post: 20072208

Thank you for the reminder. I'll pester Bill about DI60 again. I'm pushing for them to re-introduce it.

Hi, Hard to not sound argumentative on the internet so forgive me. What I struggle to get my head around is oil thickness. @100C these cars were meant to use 40. Then Porsche suggested to increase to 50. Now you're talking 60 (ignoring the winter weight) So at 100C oils are: 40 is 12.5-16 cst 50 is 16-21 cst 60 is 21-26 cst What I cannot get my head around is oil thickness and two things 1. thicker oil - cannot get into tight tolerance areas? ie oil doesn't get in between the crank and the bearings? 2. the oil is slower to flow. So the pump cannot push the oil around fast enough to protect the engine 40 to 60 is almost double (and not sure if linear or logarithmic) I know am wrong as Skip, Charles, Jake etc.. all experts in engine building etc talk about thins I'm just someone that likes to 'learn' stuff. but I just cannot head my head around thicker oils and my thoughts above. What am I missing?

Quotes source post: 20098403

Good points... Thing is, most m96 engines with some mileage or certainly with any track time, have at least some (all ?) bearings with a generous assumption of 'max spec (or more) oil clearance. This leaves plenty of room for 50 or even 60 oil film in max spec bearing clearance. And with the current crop of 5w-50 15w-50 20w-50 0w-50 and even the 60w oils, their cold weather flow is very good. If a few bearings after continuous high G corner speeds have 'worn bearings', their leakage' will drastically reduce oil pressure to all the other internal engine reciprocating parts, especially using a thin as skunk **** oil. Also in corners a thin oil will more easily flow/stay/leak into, the heads starving the sump of needed oil. So, Thats the band-aide a good w50 oil is used to 'fix a defective lubrication system on sports car capable of pulling 1 g in corners. But if you live in a climate that is below 10� in winter, then maybe a 0(5)w40 is plenty good enough in the winter time.... jmho Also, you'll find the normal hot running like a sports car m96 oil temps are considerably higher than the 100c you've used above. Look at the below chart in the 230�-250 range. Pushed hard some have seen 270� iirr.

Quotes source post: 20098403

Well see the "optimal cst" is a little over 20cst at opererating temps, ......the " minimum cst" is 13 cst at operating temps..... With the optimum cst of 20-25 cst at operating temps,,, it can withstand very high loads and shock loads at the maximum torque output of the engine at around 4500 RPM ( higher RPMS don't need as much cst/viscosity) With the minimum cst of 13cst you are at the verge of contact and need a higher RPM and less load and shock to avoid metal-to-metal contact and thermal runaway.. As far as the oil being too thick to flow in small passages...how thick are you taking ? 100cst ? 500cst ? 2000cst? 5000cst? 9000cst? Just look at the cst chart you will see that 0w-20 oil has all these thicknesses and if you put it in your m96 it still has all these thicknesses...so does the 10w-60 So if you still don't understand ask the question more exactly by not just saying "thicker" but give a "CST #" ........and/or a temperature..

I may be a dim bulb but looking at that chart with various oils being compared . To my untrained eye DI50 15w50 , Motul 300v 15w50 and Mobil 1 15w50 look very similar across the board as temps go up . What am I missing ? Or am I reading the chart wrong ?

For what it’s worth, the owners manual lists 10W40, 15W40, and 15W50 as recommended synthetic viscosities when ambient temperature is generally higher than 50�F. When generally below 50�F it has 10W40, 10W30, and 5W30. I think I’ll be bumping up my oil change schedule and replacing the 5W40 with a 10 or 15.

Quotes source post: 20098859

I honestly was wondering where the data came from myself. What is missing from all this is what the oil looks like after it's been run. We all know that M1 0w40 becomes a 30wt just about the time you pour it into the engine. SwRI can do this testing, but it's costly. Here is one of those tests: However this doesn't tell you how these oils actually perform in the real world. This one was sent to me last week - DI40 vs M1. Last thing we know for sure is that when the oil temperature gets to 235-240F, that's when the pressure falls big time and that moving to DI50 (which Lake recommends for mixed street/track use) or XP6 (which Jake has recommended for almost two decades) is advisable, as would be to increase cooling.

Quotes source post: 20098403

The more viscous oil will also be pumped into all galleries, to all bearings and to all spots that require lubrication as well as the hydraulic lifters, the variocam adjusters and the variocam+ actuators too due to the fact that the oil pump is a positive displacement pump, I.e. for each turn it will pump a certain volume of oil. What changes between pumping oil with low and with high viscosity is 1. the amount of torque required to turn the pump (it is higher for the high viscosity oil) 2. the pressure in the oil galleries. It will be higher for the more viscous oil at any given engine/pump rpm. 3. The amount of oil that is bled back into the sump (or diverted back to the pump's intake on the M96, I seem to remember) through the pressure regulating valve. It will be a higher amount for the more viscous oil. The diverted oil is basically just being heated by being pumped around, instead of being fed to where it is needed/put to use. OTOH a positive aspect to a greater amount of oil being diverted back to the intake is perhaps that at least it isn't being pumped into the heads, where it would collect and be not available for lubrication for much longer. Anyway, observation of empirical data shows that 60 weight oil at 100�C obviously works (as engines running this don't suddenly suffer from bearing failure) If the same could be said of a (currently non-existant) multi-grade engine oil of SAE grade ...70? ETA: the experts with measured data have already chimed in. There apparently is a single grade 70 engine oil for truck diesel engines with 22-26 mm2/s at 100�C. Based on those numbers that should work too... https://www.standardlubeindustries.com/sae-70

It seems everyone gets the big picture now.. Just to recap; Viscosity (CST) is the most important property of the oil Higher Viscosity (CST) protects better against thermal runaway Higher Viscosity ( CST) will have a higher oil level in the Sump during running conditions No Need to "fear" High Viscosity oil untill the CST is above 9000cst !!!..... (then it will just be slow to start/spin cold but does not "Kill" the engine) If you intend to keep running a 40w for daily driving and occasional adventures, get one of Coopducs Oil Temp Gauges to make sure your oil temp stays below 225F Viscosity first , then oil group Type I-V . then additive package..... ie. Anti-Friction, Anti-Wear, Detergents, Corrosion Inhibitors I think that covers it...( I probably forgot something )

The next question becomes, looking at that chart and the pursuit of higher CST, why would one run XP6 when one can run DI50?

Quotes source post: 20099575

The simple answer is ;;"One would not want to "...Chose the higher protection CST... They both use the same base oil (mPAO) and similar additive packages...XP6 is a stripped down version without the detergents and corrosion inhibitors for longer ODI.. Here is an even better question. .. Why don't all the Oil Companies fight it out to see who has the best oil in each oil category ?? I'm sure many people would be interested to watch it.... And they certainly have the $$$ to do it ....

Quotes source post: 20099575

All things equal, an oil with lower detergency and less dispersants will provide better wear protection compared to a fully formulated street oil, given both have equal ZDDP and moly levels.

@ctgtc, fwiw, in my case, I asked Lake about which Driven oil I could safely run that could do double duty on the street and track like Millers Nano that I had been running for years. I mentioned that I did not want to switch between street and track oil if I didnt have too. Lake suggested DI since it could handle the temps as well as had the right robust formulation for both applications. Oil tests are good. For sure, if it was a full time track car, I would be looking at racing oil such as XP.

Quotes source post: 20098371

Thanks Charles. DI40 & 50 have proven to be great next generation oils. Looking forward to DI60!

Quotes source post: 20100295

I did get back that I would have to buy 3000 gallons worth since I'm the only one asking for DI60. Group buy anyone?

Quotes source post: 20100299

Holy crap. Talk about capital outlay. I am in for a couple of gallons, but its a drop in the bucket for what you need. Here is a question for Driven. Can they put an accurate chart together like attached below to show all of their current DT, DI and XP oils for comparison. Maybe DI60 is needed, maybe it isn't. One thing is certain, if its proven to be needed, everyone will be buying a couple of gallons each and then some.

Quotes source post: 20100299

Damn !! They don't want to be holding it on the shelf do they ?...lol .. I'll be in for a 10 gal drum of it if I can get my brand name on the drum...or Rennlist M96 ..... ( kidding ) I think the DI-60 would be just about perfect for Street/Track M96 engines to keep from Thermal Runaway/Spun Rod Bearings that is killing so many due to high oil temps...

Put me in for 10 gallons as well in quart bottles.

Quotes source post: 20100299

Wow, thats a lot of oil for most any vendor to sit on. Thats what, 56, 55 gal drums, 4 drums per pallet 14 pallets of oil drums. Thats going to take up some space... So a 55 gal drum would be aprox 20 m96 oil changes. How much for a drum...?

Quotes source post: 20100418

I don't even know a price. I sent back a RFI to see where this goes.

3000 gal at about $50 per gallon= $150k cash out of pocket......It will take a lot more people to stop using the low Viscosity oil for it be feasible for Charles to make it happen .......

From a marketing standpoint, all Driven has to do is show the viscosity numbers at different temp ranges for all their oils and even some of us Neanderthals will figure it out. Bet the DI60 temp numbers are tempting in comparison to other alternatives. Heck, DI50 already blows away its major competition.

So considering it might be a while before dl60 happens...if it happens. Would spirited summer road driving be better with dl50 or motul 300v 60? Likely not getting to those highest temps.

Quotes source post: 20102330

Unless you are tracking the car, I really don't think you're going to get the oil temps high enough to warrant the thicker oil. Plus, it's highly unlikely you'll be pulling enough G's on the street as well, as long as you aren't doing anything funny (or possibly illegal).

Quotes source post: 20102330

Please be certain and not guess ... I can see up to 280*F in a real spirited back-road romp or at a small closed Track like Little Talledega where there is not a lot of top speed for air flow....Low speeds ( low air flow) and low RPM ( less viscosity is "needed" at high RPM ) and full throttle will cause the most heat and need the highest Viscosity ( CST ) .. Put an Oil Temp Gauge on to be certain..

Charles for just street/mountain carving is DT50 or DI50 the way to go ? Is the additive package in one better than the other for the street ?

With the Driven oils having a higher amount of Moly added to avoid bore score on Lokasil bores, is that really necessary for rebuilt engines using Nikasil bores? moly only bonds with aluminum so I don�t see how it would benefit the Nikasil bores. I can see it would help in the lifter carriers but not much else.

Quotes source post: 20102502

Moly binds to ferrous surfaces as well, so it helps all the way around. The only time I don't want moly in the oil is during the break-in process.

Quotes source post: 20102379

It can't hurt. The biggest difference from what I remember is that DI50 has more mPAO. DI50 also uses individual component additives. Easiest way I explain it is the DI oils.

Quotes source post: 20091817

The primary reason for our evolving oil recommendations is the frequent, unannounced changes in oil formulations. For example, when Brad Penn was acquired by DA Lubricants, their product lineup changed�prompting a shift in our recommendations as well. Since 2008, we've collaborated closely with Driven Racing Oil, helping to develop formulations such as DT40, DT50, XP9, XP5, XP7, and later GP-1. This partnership dates back to the early days when Driven was still known as "Joe Gibbs Racing Oil." It marked Driven's first venture into European engine oil development, initiated when Lake Speed Jr. reached out to us to begin the collaboration. In fact, the original DT40 bottles proudly featured the FSI logo on the front label. as did the DT50, which was an aircooled only oil at the time. Although I wasn�t involved at the time, (I was not here then) studying the history of this effort has left me deeply impressed by the dedication it required. Much of that work continues behind the scenes today, as we constantly test and evaluate new formulations and monitor ongoing changes in existing oils. Currently, LM2040 and DI40/DI50 remain our recommended street oils. For track use, the best oil depends on engine clearances, which of our oil systems are used, and the expected ambient temperatures.

Quotes source post: 20102330

I did get the go ahead from Driven to have the DI60 made up in a small batch so we can collect samples and data. I'm looking for several people who are actively tracking their M96 engine who can provide used oil samples from their current fill and then switch to DI60 and then provide us with another sample. I also need volunteers to have data systems, as I will need to have pressure, temperate, and g force data from both your current fill and the DI60. Please send an email to [email removed] if you are interested in participating. I'll need to get back to Driven by the end of the week, so time is of the essence.

Quotes source post: 20102375

Just posting this again because it is Extremely Important and is "counter-intuitive" to what a lot of people have been trained to assume......and the resulting Thermal Runaway that we see way too frequently....

Quotes source post: 20109682

Are you going to be publishing the collected data, or your analyses? I�m very interested in seeing how it all plays out.

Quotes source post: 20110729

We will certainly share. But with the lack of interest from you guys, I'm concerned there won't be enough demand. I only had two of you write in.

Charles, you may want to consider posting a new thread on the topic on the 996, 997, Cayman and racing/DE forums. Bet there may be more takers.

Quotes source post: 20070431

The picture in the last video illustrates exactly why manufactures are running these low-weight oils. It improves fuel economy. Unfortunately, there is a back edge to this sword.

Quotes source post: 20112969

Absolutely,!! All OEM's are being pushed hard by EPA for better fuel economy and lower emissions..or else pay big $$$ fines ...... And if they can build every part of the engine to "exactly" 0.001" clearance that never wears and never overheats then they can continue to run these super thin oils... For me I'll take the 1-2 MPG and 1-2HP penalty to avoid the catastrophic failures.....

Quotes source post: 20112927

I'd be happy to run that oil in my 6Turbo on track though I doubt it would tell much, the 6TT doesn't ever have oil pressure dips and seems happy with whatever gets put in it. I can datalog oil temp (but not oil pressure) with my Cobb.

Quotes source post: 20113074

Ya, rub it in.... lol

This thread has been a brilliant read, thanks to everyone for share there knowledge. I have been using millers CFS 10w-50 NT+ as it came highly recommended by owners over here in the uk. max oil temp I have seen is 110c on track which was by an external sensor above the oil filter housing in a sandwich plate

Quotes source post: 20113173

Thanks man I'm just trying to keep the M96 engines alive by educating the owners on how to avoid very unpleasant circumstances while they are also having fun and enjoying their Porsche to the MAX ...

https://torquejournal.com/slick-secrets/ Interesting bit of reading! Comparing old race oil to new stuff etc

Quotes source post: 20113838

Interesting read...I just now took the time to read it ....and of course I always also read between the lines to see "what they don't say.... and why" ... I was actually quite impressed by the now 28 year old 20w-50 oil formulation ...With 0 ppm of Tin in the UOA means absolutely NO bearing wear !!!! Just think what it would do with a "modern" additive package !! The elevated level of Lead are due to the 114 "High Octane Leaded Fuel" ...and the elevated Copper is due to the CGI Block ( Compact Grafite Iron ) which contains up to 2% Copper...so those can be ignored as they didn't come from bearing wear as there is 0 Tin ! .... The Iron at 24 ppm is nothing for a CGI block as Cummings uses CGI blocks in thier diesels a only flag as a problem if it is over 150ppm ... So things considered neither engine showed ANY bearing wear ...( which is what should be focused on ).....But which one would have a bigger "safety margin" for Thermal Runaway ? I think the 20w-50 would still have the bigger "safety margin" and if it was to have a "Modern additive package" would have even more Safety Margin ... And because the "actual running temps" of the engines are not given, then viscosity comparison cannot/should not be done....

Want to see exactly what "Thermal Runaway" looks like from running a thin viscosity oil looks like ?? Here is tear down video of one of the 600K ReCalled GM V8 engines ran with too thin viscosity oil .. .Note the Black/Blue Rods/bearings that is the Tell tale signs of Thermal Runaway....( only other damage was 1 lifter/cam lobe) ... You Tube

And now there is a class action lawsuit against VWAG for high oil consumption on the EA888. Once again, I'd wager that the factory approved 508 0w20 is partially to blame.

I love that �I Do Cars� guy. He�s got a chill demeanor and it�s oddly relaxing watching watching him tear down engines. He has a video of him taking apart a M96, if anyone is interested.

Back in the 70�s, 80�s and 90�s, I ran Castrol GTX 20w-50 in everything. My 4 stroke dirt bike, my street bike, my VW Scirocco, my BMW 320i and even my old military Jeep. Everything got it and no oil related failures in any of them. Even when Honda came out with their own motorcycle oil, our Honda shop still had 55 gallon drums of Castrol GTX in the service department. They said it was the best oil and they weren�t changing. They kept the Hondaline oil out front for customers that requested it.

Quotes source post: 20118959

I did the same thing in my road racing bike (GSXR750 super bike). it was oil cooled but ran very hot on summer days (race weekends). I pulled it apart and the cylinders looked perfect! I loved GTX 20w50...thats what sold me on it. I run Castrol Edge Euro spec 10w40 now in both my 911's!

Unless I missed it, I haven't seen any mention of Motul 8100 power. Thinking of moving up to this in the 5w50 from the Motul 300 5w40 I used for my last oil change/current oil with . Mainly street driven/spirited driver.

Quotes source post: 20118061

The pistons I sent you are out of a gen2 EA888 from my 2014 Audi Q5 2.0T. Running a SAE 40 grade DI40 since the CPO expired and factory castrol 0w-40 before that (the gen3 gets 0w20 from the factory) it still developed high consumption over the next 50k miles. I noticed the new revised pistons I put in from Audi are slightly larger in diameter and, of course, have a new ring package including the flex vent style oil control ring as well as different compression rings. The engine has a lot of smartly designed features and maintenance like oil changes, spark plugs, PCV etc are so easy and fast.. but man does the oil get dirty in that engine quick. Even when I short changed the oil 500 miles after the rebuild it still comes out black.

Quotes source post: 20120875

Those Audi 2.0 and 1.8 Liter engines seem to have a big sludge problem also.... Working in Porsche Dealership that was shared with an Audi Dealership in the same building, the Shop was split down the middle....I would walk across to the other side ( Parts Dept. was on that side) and notice the engines with valve cover off full of sludge ...I have never seen any sludge in an M96 even the ones following the factory OCI....

Quotes source post: 20123626

I think turbocharged direct injection is hard on oil and the OCI intervals recommended by the factory are too long. I had always changed my oil every 5K miles or less and when I took the engine apart it looked very good inside and components like the bearings looked excellent at 130K miles. The cylinder bores looked great too, the etching process they use cannot be compared to newer technologies like SUMEbore but is impressive. But the oil control ring was completely jammed full of hard carbon making it obvious why it was consuming so much oil (I am in Germany now or would post a picture from my PC). The oil control ring from the factory in this engine has small slots and looks very similar to the rings that come in the Mezger and the Mezger never has oil consumption issues despite being low tension. But I suspect the reason they fail in the 2.0T is because they lose their tension over time (this is why I have sent them to Charles for testing). I also suspect the tension is generally too low because they were trying to squeeze more water out of the MPG rock which is ridiculous as even with the revised flex vent style rings I replaced them with which are known to resolve oil consumption permanently, this car can still get 30+ MPG on the highway when my wife drives it. p.s. I have also heard that prior to 2005 Audi was using a synthetic blend that was causing a lot of sludge build up at the long OCIs they recommend. Apparently they switched over to full synthetic in 2005 to address this. Still they have been having issues with the rings for longer than the last decade.

Our Audi Dealer did use a SEmi-synthetic Blend on most models... We had two big bulk tanks of oil at the Dealership, one for Audi and one for Porsche, plus other quart Bottles on the shelf of Mobil 1 A40 ect.. The bulk oil was a Phillps 66 "A40" Synthetic for Porsche and the Audi was a Phillips 66 Semi-synthetic ( Audi spec)... All cars got the bulk oil unless "special request" for the Mobil 1 A40... The Porsche Driving School Cars insisted on the Mobil 1 on all those cars..I begged them to change oil sooner than the Factory Spec of 15k or 2 years,, but they would NOT ( they were saving $$ ) If you ended up with a former Driving School Car.....sorry, but I tried ....

On the VW engine... Had a new girl friend had dated a few times long time ago. She had bought a new Passat with the little turbo engine, now it had 60,000 miles. She called me one day and said they had to tow her car to the dealership as it died on the road. She continued to explain how the dealership said her engine is bad and she is just out of warranty and could I go down there and talk to them. I went there and the oil pan/valve cover was off showing the most sludge I'd ever seen in an engine. It was disgusting. And I know sludge. Use to regularly go to bone yards and buy old v8 engines some 10+years old, to build/salvage parts. Some of those old junkyard v8 smelled so bad when oil pan came off you'd want to puke. They had sludge. But not sludge packed tight and thick into every corner of the engine like that 3.5 year old Passat. So, I asked her when she added oil last as the oil cap was sludged up bad, or when she changed the oil last. She replied, never to both questions, and said... "didn't know it had to be changed.... After talking to the dealer they did change out her engine under 'good faith warranty'. Thought that was very generous of them.

Quotes source post: 20124106

I bought a junkyard Cayenne 3.2 VR6 to put in my Corrado. The previous owners had an idea about oil and engines; sort of like watering your flowers I guess. The engine was well oiled outside and rather sludgey inside. The VR's run very hot and the 24V versions more so - hauling around a 5k pound wagon can't help either! That engine has been much happier moving the 2700 pound Corrado.

Getting a new engine on goodwill when the oil wasn�t ever changed for 60k miles is extraordinarily good luck. Usually they will politely tell you to go take a hike. I didn�t even ask if they would drop new pistons in for me when it was drinking a quart every 500 miles or less. When I asked if my timing chain that looks more like a bicycle chain from the factory could be covered under any goodwill right after my CPO expired they told me the timing chain was just fine (it was not fine, it was stretched over 5 degrees and the tensioner was extended so far it looked like it was going to fall out of the housing). Using a high quality oil and changing it every 5k miles or less is cheap insurance.

I have seen Porsche " Goodwill" some large repairs that shocked me because they were were blatantly not covered by Warranty... But after seeing quite a few it dawned on me that it was not about the "Law" or the $$$ , it was about, Was this a good Brand Ambassador or potential Future Customer that would buy again..

Agree. I think it helps to have a good dealership and helpful service advisor. And of course being polite helps. In my case I figured best case is they might offer something like 50% on a really lucky day if I showed them all the Porsche and Audi cars/parts I have bought over the last 20 years but even then the out of pocket cost would have still been north of $10k. Instead I bought parts for pretty much everything possible (injectors, RMS, water pump, etc) for $3k. Many of the parts like the RMS have been updated to a newer design that is less prone to leak anyway and at 130k miles it�s prudent to think any car no matter what make or model will need some attention. I have had a wide range of failures on the Porsche and Audis I have owned but I still think they are both great cars and I would buy them all again. There is a massive amount of overlap between Porsche and Audi. If you worked as a Porsche tech you could easily work on almost any Audi with virtually zero learning curve.

Quotes source post: 20124106

I worked for Lexus from 2001 - 2008 and the last 5 years of that was in the back counter as the lead(king of the retards). Toyota has horrific problems with the 3000 series engines of the RX300/ES300 regarding sludge and most of these cars were leased so they were dealer maintained. The wildest thing I’ve ever seen, other than a railroad spike piercing a tire and wheel on a LS400, was a customer who never changed her oil on a RX with 48k mi. When they removed the oil plug, a couple drops of oil came out but the engine still ran. Lexus denied her good will due to neglect but the amount of dealer maintained cars that came in with sludge was astonishing. The culprit ended up being the heat range + viscosity of oil being used by Toyota SET. The irony is, any car that was part of the sludge campaign was not permitted to be a certified pre owned car.

Yup, Gunther VW in Coconut Creek has been a great dealership for me. The gesture to replace her engine under warranty went way beyond what I expected after the service manager and tech showing me the carnage, they could see the disgust on my face from the shear lack of maintenance/damage. Then, after talking/agreeing with them, they offered this good will gesture. I had bought a couple cars there in the past. The last one a GTI for my sons grad present. He took it up to his central Florida University. In 1 year the car came home with the bumper hanging, tree slime stuck all over the car. The headliner had water stains all over it and the musty moldy smell from the wet carpet was hard to miss. The clutch was also slipping badly. Gunther VW ser manger told me he would warranty this clutch 1 time only. And went on to say he was also going to warranty a new headliner, sunroof, a few other interior parts, and full carpet because it probably happened from a leaky sunroof. I'm Not so sure thats how it all happened.... Anyhow, never had sludge in any of my engines, not even a little. I am constantly changing fluids, the life blood of mechanical things... But wonder the actual chemical reaction/reason oil sludge eventually forms, and how it packs itself into every corner of a neglected engine..?

Quotes source post: 20126609

I have not owned this model but it sounds like a sunroof drain to me. I park my cars inside but still always check the drains because of this reason. Sludge forms when the oil breaks down from long OCIs, being run at high temps, being exposed to moisture, etc. Synthetics will be less prone to sludge. So using a high quality synthetic and changing it routinely, sludge is something you should never have to worry about fortunately.

An improperly designed/functioning Crankcase Ventilation System ( PCV/AOS ) can cause Sludge as well as too long OCI... Blow-by Gases contain Oxygen and Water as well as numerous harmful and harmless gasses that if left to condense with the oil will cause Sludge to form.. On some engines the PCV/AOS System doesn't do a good enough job of removing these gases to keep Sludge from forming even when using the recommended OCi..( Audi 1.8 and 2.0 I'm looking at you ) And of course if the engine has "excessive Blow-by" this will need even shorter OCI's to keep Sludge from forming.... The stuff that is in Blow-by besides Oxygen (O) and Water (H2O)........... Carbon dioxide (CO2) – Carbon monoxide (CO) – Nitrogen oxides (NOx) – Sulfur dioxide (SO2) – Hydrocarbons (HC) – Benzene (C6H6) – So, the AOS/UAOS is important not just to keep oil out of the Intake, ( and to keep from having oil starvation with UAOS ) but also to keep theses gases from condensing in the oil and forming Sludge ...

Quotes source post: 20126609

That's where I bought my first VW, the service there was great.

Speaking of different oils and knowing when oils are breaking down, what is the easiest, best way to get it tested?

Quotes source post: 20127023

Hmmm, so we just found 1 positive aspect of a faulty AOS that causes excess ventilation like in most m96 aos failures, no sludge build up because of extreme crank case ventilation.. LOL

Quotes source post: 20132058

.....and keep your Spark Plugs from rusting .....

So I've gone through all 9 pages of this thread, so apologize if my poor reading comprehension missed this. My 996 is semi-daily driven with some spirited weekend fun, and sub 10k mile rebuilt motor with nikasil sleeves. I ran motul 5w40 on my last oil change, but based the on the info in this thread, seems like it would be best to go up to 50. Would Mobil-1 FSx2 or Motul 8100 Power be sufficient for a street car?

Quotes source post: 20174944

@Gknow the Mobil 1 FSx2 is just barely a 50 weight so even though it is much better than the Mobil 1 40 weight ( that is just barely a 40 weight) please watch your oil temps and pressures.....you don't want any deviations in oil pressure..... and there are upgrades ( UAOS/UIDS) to insure no deviations...

Quotes source post: 20174944

I'm interested in this question too. My 2001 C4 is an east coast daily driver with 72k miles. Its only been my car since 70k and I went Motul X-cess Gen 2 5w-40 after I did the IMS solution when I got the car. My plan was to continue using this with changes every 5k.

Quotes source post: 20175040

@CharacterZero See my response to Gknow above... Believe it or not ......Everyones particular circumstance will be different and dependent on location , driving style,...ambient temps, and most importantly ,,,running oil temps and engine condition/clearances.......but the good news is we understand all the circumstances and have the cures.......

Quotes source post: 20175034

I've been playing close attention to oil pressure and the only concern I have is a slight drop than usual when going up uphill after the car has been on the road for a bit. While I understand that UAOS/UIDS serve as protective measures, it seems like it may be a bit overkill for a car that isn't going to see the track (please correct me if I'm wrong). With that said, I do want to be mindful of choosing an oil that help manage some of these deviations. I'll be getting another analysis of my current 10w40 and will give the 8100 50 weight a shot.

Quotes source post: 20175113

I love "over-kill" on anything ... ....It gives me piece of mind..... That said, to be more frugal minded ( and I don't blame you for that ) requires you to be more diligent in monitoring so that you can intervene if necessary........and yes,,..most defiantly a higher viscosity oil will help to mitigate and oil pressure deviations...

I have been running Driven FR50, which is 5w50 for years on both my stock motor and few changes on the new rebuild with great results and exemplary UOA. I just did an oil change yesterday and put in DT50, which is 15w50. Went for a quick 25mi ripper after and even though my oil pressure has always been good, it got even better. Oil at 210F and at idle I was sitting at 1.75bar. My 996 has been my only car for last 5 years and even though I don't drive every day (work from home) it sees 8-10k miles annually and get's driven hard. Like Skip said, give yourself headroom for when you want to want to properly exercise the engine and not worry about your oil turning to water

I just picked up a 1999 996 w3.4 liter / 55K miles. Runs great and I changed oil and used Mobil 1 5w40 until I can read all these threads and figure out what I should be doing moving forward. If it helps, I am located in South Carolina so temps will never be below 50 degrees when this car is on the road, and I will be driving at PCA DE events at Roebling Road. I am adding the UAOS and the Hartech Racing Sump. I am replacing all my cam chain tensioners with the updated models. I am replacing the oil pressure relief valve with the updated model with the chamfered edge. I am also changing the water pump, belt, and flushing the coolant with the Airlift II vacuum device. So, Oil ... I have read many threads and it seems the conversations have evolved over the past several years to arrive at: 5w50 or 10w60 or even 15w50 fully synthetic, preferable with Molybdenum as part of the formula. My question is: Should I go with a 5w50 like Molygen or a 10w60 like Motul 300V? It seems Driven Oil no longer makes a 5w50? I change oil every 5000 miles. I tend to feel the 10w60 300v Le Mans is a nice option, however I am unsure whether there is some actual truth to the folklore that the 5w is required to support all the complex parts like variocam, etc.? With a 5 K change schedule, I am thinking an oil like 300v Le Mans may still be "good" for that period of usage? Have we arrived at a point where we can list a few brands and weights we can generally agree on? Maybe I missed it, however if so, point me there please and I will read up. If not, does anyone feel like starting to create a list?

Don't forget the 997 return lines, but a good 50w is perfect for fast road with all your other mods. A 60w will be good on track, especially if there are long high G turns.

Yes, thanks. I have the 997 return pipes incoming with the LN Engineering skid plate to go under the Hartech Racing Sump. And I plan to run 1 quart over full once everything is completed. I believe this will also immerse/expose the IMS bearing in oil bath (not sure if this will be a good or bad thing). It seems to me these are the oils people here are using have gravitated toward: Mobil 1, Molygen, and Motul 5w50 Motul 300v 10w60 for track/street perhaps - Slakker Racing? Driven 5w40 - recommended and offered by LN Engineering Since Porsche is now recommending and offering 5w-50 oil for 996, not sure why Driven 5w-40 would still be preferred, though it seems people stress the molybdenum as part of the formula. I believe the Molygen and Mobil 1 products also contain moly, though, and come in the 5w50 weight, so I am thinking oils like these would be the most preferred? Does Motul 300v or X Power contain any moly at all? I cannot seem to find this stated anywhere I am searching, so far?

Quotes source post: 20246600

The driven doesn't shear down quickly like the other oils, so that's why its still mentioned. A Mobil 40w is often less than 40 new! And very quickly drops viscosity with use... You can always add some moly to your oil every second change.

Its good to see the Oil Viscosity talk has gotten "thicker" ...( pun intended)

Quotes source post: 20246600

Huge step up in viscosity, oil pressure and abilty to handling temperatures by moving from DI40 to DI50. There is also plenty of moly in the oil so you dont have to add any. If you are running the UAOS w/ Track drain, and your blow-by numbers are good, you can run even more than 1 qt over full. I run 12.5 qts using the UAOS T plus a 2qt deep sump versus just 8.5 qts. Below is a very useful grid from Slakker.

I just put in MOTUL 8100 X-Cess Gen 2 SAE 5W40 recently, I just saw Slakker and recommened a thicker oil. I wish i had done that with the knock noise I have

Porschetech3, first off, on behalf of everyone who can benefit from the things you have invented/refined and offer, thank you . I am looking forward to the UAOS I purchased helping me with my 3.4 oil management. I think the UIDS is also a really tremendous offering. If I was racing I would probably be installing one. So, yeah the thread gets thicker in more ways than one LOL. I saw somewhere you mentioned you use 10w60 in your daily driver, if I recall correctly. I think Slakker Racing also is using 10w60 and is looking at whether it can serve both street and track use cases. I think you are in the gulf coast area. I am in SC. I think climates are similar (hot). Do you have any discomfort running 10w60 on a daily basis? Any fears or indications of harm from cold starts or from too heavy of a viscosity (increased heat or any signs of lack of adequate oil flow)? I am coming in from over 20 years of G Body 3.2 and 930 use, so heavier oil is something I am very use to using. However, I am not knowledgeable enough to be certain that a 10w oil will be perfectly safe in my 3.4. On the other hand I really wonder about 5W oils in general, regardless of the 40/50 suffix. In my mind they are all 5W oils and the modifiers just allow them to stretch or whatever to mimic a 40W or a 50W at the same elevated temperature--- but they are still 5W. - correct? 15W seems heavy for a circa 1999 3.4 given variocam, hydraulic lifters, etc. - and I wonder about the backpressure/resistance generating a lot of extra heat in the oil as it flows versus helping to transfer heat from the bearing into the oil and out through the heat exchanger... Since Driven is no longer offering a 5W50 - not sure I want to make the leap from 5W all the way to 15W without seeing some others who can share empirical data for street use...I see they are possibly going to make a 10W50 but in the meantime we all have to keep changing our old oil for fresh oil... So what do you think about 10W50 or 10W60 fully synthetic with some zddp and some boron or moly or whatever else is in there to help lubricate? Have you seen real world data (oil analysis) that shows it is as effective or more effective than a 5W50? Another thread I was perusing on Bobistheoilguy contained this comparative data that was posted by PZEV, where M1 5W50 FS X2 was side by side M! Supercar 5W50, and it looks to me like M1 Supercar 5W50 may be a good option as it contains moly and zinc and the weight seems to be in line with what Porsche is now recommending, and the kinestokes at 100C seem to be in the safe zone. Any thoughts on this flavor of M1? I attached the image of the chart for viewing. I am happy to go with a robust 5W50 if there is one (Maybe M1 Supercar is the one?), but I would prefer to perhaps go with a 10W if that viscosity is not going to cause cold start wear, generate too much resistance/heat or cause lubrication issues while it is warming up and thinning out... I have only about 1000 miles and maybe 5 laps at Roebling Road on my M1 European Car 5W40 and I already notice that the oil pressure is about a ~.5 bar less at hot idle than it was when it was first poured into the crank. TIA

Quotes source post: 20247671

There is a really well known oil guy that runs this exact oil in his M96. Too bad it's missing from the Slakker table, because it's better than the other Motul's listed.

Quotes source post: 20248163

So you are saying Motul 8100 X-cess 5w-40 is better than Motuls 300v oils, which are also heavier than the X-cess? Care to share the evidence? I've been running the 8100 X-cess because my builder recommended it. I'm thinking of switching to a heavier oil (probably Liqui Moly Molygen 5W-50).

@996hobby Yes I use the Motul 300v 10w-60 oil on the Street and the Track here in Bama year round... It is my favorite and has been for the last 4 years, before that Millers CFS Nt+ 10w-60 was my favorite. ..They are both Ester Core High Temp and High Viscosity.... Viscosity is the #1 most important property of the oil and I want mine to be above 14cst most of the time and never lower than 12cst even when on the Track in August when its 100F in the shade and 130F on the asphalt.............and my oil temp is going up around 275F in the "slow speed section/corners" ... Esters are my favorite type of base oil due to the high heat resistance... Esters are the only oil type that can be used in Jet engines....mineral oil will burn up in a Jet engine .. The mPAO's Type 4 oils usually have some Ester in them like Driven DT50 or DI50 ..You can tell by the Oxidation Value in the UOA's, if it over 30 then it has Ester in it....but the mPAO's use the Ester to help blend in the additives.. I have had no issues with the Motul 300v 10w-60 year round, and have used 20w-50 year round also . The oil pressure gauge on the dash goes to fill 5 bar in about 1 second and the AIM Data aquisition goes to over 100 psi in the same time... I think 90% of the people stress WAY too much over cold starts on high viscous oil..... The only thing I would caution on is using the small NAPA 1042 wix 51042 oil filters with high viscous oil ...LN Engineering now makes a Billet Canister with "no by-pass" that can use the larger OEM filter that will flow more of the high viscous oil ... I have used both and when I cut open the small Wix 51042 to inspect, the pleats look a bit weathered from the high viscous oil for my taste ...but also I tend to red-line mine at least once before she gets fully warmed up ( I have my reasons for that ).. ..

I switched to Motul 8100 10w60 the other week from Castrol Edge 5w40.

Quotes source post: 20248284

Interesting. More details!

I try to hit redline at least once on every drive but only after warming

Quotes source post: 20248310

Well, it may sound strange to some, and may go completely over the head of others, but.... Its been well known for ages that the pistons/rings/cylinders are the most "wear prone" items in the engine, wearing some 0.010" in under 100k miles in previous engine generations,that is until the advent of the modern engines such as ours with High Tech Lokasil Cylinders and Mahle Hypereutectic 4032 Forged Pistons......and with the Piston/Cylinder clearance setup realy realy tight from the Factory to reduce emissions ,there is a real concern when things are this tight .. To summarize we have ... 1. Extremely hard wear resistant Silicon impregnated Cylinders that don't "wear" in the traditional fashion 2. Hypereutectic Silicon Hardened Pistons that don't wear in the traditional fashion 3 .High Tech Synthetic and Ester low friction oils that prevent wear .... 4. Very very tight Factory Clearances on piston to cylinder walls for low emissions.. Race Car motors are traditionally built loose. Loose is safe ... Loose is fast ..."Rule of thumb" when building Race Motors, always err on the loose side, never on the tight side ....When you err on the tight side things will lock-up/seize/break/score... So knowing our engines come right off the assembly line with the cylinder/piston clearance ridiculously tight has never set well with me and the fact that its all so wear resistant made me wonder what I could do short of disassembly and machining more clearance...( which wouldn't be practical, more practical to just wait for it to fail then rebuild) ... It's long been Hypothesized by Charles, Jake,Baz, and even myself that the Silicon Particles can detach from the Lokasil and lodge between the piston and cylinder and that this is the "Wear Mode" of this system that leads to bore-score and scuffing. ( they just don't wear in the traditional way). So it just dawned on me years and years ago, what would happen if I took it to red-line while the engine was still mostly cold ? 1. The oil had well circulated and coated all parts with pressurized thick nice new oil 2 The Piston to Cylinder clearance was at the "highest" so that if a Silicon Particle was loose or came loose it had the most clearance to flush it out ( and not get stuck between them rubbing up and down) 3. If it caused any wear that would be a good thing because they are built too tight to begin with Of course this is just ONE second gear pull to red-line per trip,( not long enough for the piston to heat up and outgrow the cylinder) then I just casually cruise on until fully warmed up.......Then I hammer it again ....

Little backgroud before I am starting to change oil to different spec or brand. My car is 2001 C2 with manual and 3.4 engine. Odometer has 229K km. I purchased this car in mid July 2025, so a bit over 2 months. Oil is Mobile 1 5W-50 and driven one AX event and a total of approx 1000km. I've read much, but not everything, related to the oil saga discussed here and elsewhere... trying to cope with it all. Today I had a good 2 hour drive with my C2 and oil pressures at the end of the drive shows the following (a dash meter): - idle approx 800rpm: 1.2 (traffic light) - 2250 rpm: 3.25 (driving) - 3000 rpm: 3.9 (driving) - 4000 rpm: 4.1 (driving) My understanding is that these figures are good, but I would like to hear your opinions related to the engine health and could it be good / bad to put in higher viscosity oil in to this engine.

Quotes source post: 20091670

lm oil he carries there

thoughts ;on adding 0ne extra quart to your sump(per slakker),,, or adding moly .?My 996 has 102k on it Also Bob the oil guy likes Pennzoil Multi-grade (mineral oil based, non-synthetic, cheap) 5W-20 at

Quotes source post: 20248630

A Porsche shouldn�t use a mineral-based oil, from Bob is the Oil Guy forums and official Porsche guidance . Porsche and virtually any tribologist recommends only full synthetic oil for the flat six engine and specifies a higher weight. The M96 is not a pickup truck engine.

FWIW pilot4fn my 55k miles (~86K kilometers) 3.4 reports basically the same oil pressures as yours does via the gauge cluster...with 5w40 Mobile 1

[QUOTE=Porschetech3;20248284] @996hobby Yes I use the Motul 300v 10w-60 oil on the Street and the Track here in Bama year round... ..... The only thing I would caution on is using the small NAPA 1042 wix 51042 oil filters with high viscous oil ..." So, I guess that raises a question for me - I am using the stock Porsche cup and cartridge/insert filter not a spin on type. It does not look to be extremely flow restrictive and there is a psring bypass in the cup I think... In your mind OK to use this with a 10w60 fully synthetic oil? Or should I consider adding the filter adaptor so I ca use a spin on filter in your opinion? I am guessing since you use one you must believe they are a better option - or you need the adaptor plate to support the addition of more measuring taps (pressure and temp)? Also, what is your 10w60 oil change interval, please (3K vs 5K or otherwise)? TIA

Quotes source post: 20248254

My source is a conversation with a person who is associated with analyzing engine oils and owns a M96 and he came to that conclusion based on the UOA from his car. I don't have a link. My research after the suggestion found the 300v is a racing oil and the 8100 has a different formulation for non-track usage. I just wrote Motul tech support to ask why their website recommends 8100 for the M96 and will report back.

So maybe this would work, as it is 10w60 and also more of a street use blend?: https://www.motul.com/en-US/products...R+10W-60%C2%A0 I am looking but not yet finding kinestoke and HTHS values, etc.

Quotes source post: 20248630

I would NOT ever add 1 extra qt of oil to your engine unless you have upgraded your AOS to the UAOS w/ Track drain. You are just asking for oil to get dumped into your intake resulting in huge smoking problems and the risk of cracking your cylinders thru Hydralock. Easiest thing to do to improve oil pressure is go to a heavier high viscosity synthetic 50-60 oil with lots of moly and the ability to withstand high temps. DI50 is a good example. Second thing to do is go to the UAOS T so you can overfill the oil. Third thing you can do is go to a 2qt deep sump or the industrial strength UIDS after you went to a heavier oil and UAOS T.

Quotes source post: 20247593

I am curious do you have samples comparing DI40 to DI50? You might not have it yet as I I assume you recently moved to 50. My view is that oil pressure is not an end all be all. And you can have good oil pressure but still get wear if the oil film is weak (thicker oil can actually form weaker oil film under certain conditions). Wear is the the fundamental priority. There is a sweet spot for viscosity. The goal is to sit in the sweet spot of the Stribeck curve for bearings, etc. Generally speaking you want to be sitting near the start of the hydrodynamic lubrication regime, where ZN/P (Z=viscosity, N= speed, P=load) is just past the trough of the curve. What happens if the oil is too viscous? You will be too far to the right of the curve where friction will start increasing as viscosity becomes excessive leading to pumping, shear losses, etc.

Quotes source posts: 20248627, 20248630

Jake doesn't sell oil. Slakker made a mistake in their 3rd video saying to overfill the engine but backtracked in their 4th video saying to only do this with the UAOS of motorsport AOS, which is correct especially in the case of the UAOS. 5W-20 is a terrible choice. Bob is the oil guy is not a reputable source of information. Broadly speaking (there can be some exceptions but not worth getting into) group 1-3 oils will never match the performance of group 4 (PAOs) or group 5 (a "catch all" category that typically is referring to esters, ANs, etc) oils.

Quotes source post: 20248901

Sure, what comparisons do you want to see? Viscosity numbers at higher temps have been shown on Slakkers matrix which is a very useful reference tool. Who wouldn't want an oil with high viscosity that maintains its high viscosity therefore lubrication qualities at high temps. Regarding oil pressure, my 996s oil pressure when hot using DI40 idled at 1.5 bar. With DI50 it idles right below 2.0 bar.

Quotes source post: 20248934

Sorry that's my fault I wasn't clear; I meant UOA samples showing wear trends.

Quotes source post: 20248938

Sure, i can post them later today.

Here are 2 different UAOs. The first is from my 2021 Audi Q7 comparing DI40 to Castrol Syntech 5w40. Notice the improvement with DI40 across the board. Wow! The second is a UAO comparing DI50 to DI40 in my 996.2. With each of these tests, I had a track day and a couple of highway street miles. Substantial improvement across the board with DI50 over DI40. To put it simply, i am sold on DI40 for my Audi Q7 and DI50 for my 996. For sure, I would jump at the chance to run DI60 in my 996 on the track if Driven ever produces it.

Let me clarify a couple things for some people....i know these subjects are complicated in some ways and are hard to follow if you have preconceived notions that are not correct due to the many falsehoods/myths that get spread around so easily on the Net.. @996hobby I put Fresh Motul 300v 10w-60 in before going to the Track and will drive it on the Street another 3k miles or until the next Track Event, whichever comes first ...Then always fresh oil before the Track...You can see on a UOA when you have lost any Viscosity Speaking to oil filters, the OEM filter flows fine but has the by-pass in the bottom of the canister ( where any debris will settle)...Modifying the by-pass to eliminate it is one way ( there are threads on this ).. or LN has a billit one with no by-pass or a choise of a high-differential by-pass... Yes I used the spin on adaptor with small NAPA 1042/Wix 51042 filter ONLY due to needing a place to put some Sensors for Temperature and pressure ...I do NOT like the small filter for high viscosity oils.. @silver_tt Yes you are spot on most things on oils/viscosity, but one thing that is of the utmost important on the M96/7 is that higher viscosity not only means a good CST for bearing protection but also means more oil in the Sump to help avoid oil starvation ...The thinner the oil the faster it will leave the Sump.. You are also spot on about not overfilling the engine oil with the OEM AOS... And with the Motorsport AOS it is just a " rob Peter to pay Paul" .situation, it is just an OEM AOS with a larger side chamber that will hold .5qt extra oil,( this is good to keep it from the intake but bad because that oil should be in the Sump)....... The UAOS System is the only way to safely run oil above the full line from 1-2qts( with the caveat of a healthy engine/blow-by) Other things to consider;; There are Race OIls and there are " Race OIls" ....Some oil specs that used to be high performance Street OIls were condemned to the "Race OIL Category"due to the high levels of anti-wear/extreme pressure additives that are unfriendly to the catalytic convertors....These oils do not damage the engine, in fact they protect the engine much much more, its just that instead of the Cats lasting 120k miles they will only last 60k miles.... The problem is that big oil companies won't tell us what all they put in the oil....All we can do is test the oil via UOA/s but that doesn't tell us which of the 5 viscosity improvers is used, but it will tell us if the viscosity has dropped over a period time... Lake Speed Jr can't even tell you which VII is in what oil ....( although he probably has a better guess then me)...and is the reason he doesn't recommend Brands...he just says "application dictates chemistry" Anyway I probably missed something I meant to clarify but hopefully I get it next time...

One more thing .... Before anyone else asks me " what do I think about Brand XXX xw-xx" you need to say why you are even considering it.... Because if the reason you are considering it is because it costs less than Motul 300v , I will remind you I am not a Financial Advisor, just a Porsche Tech ...

Quotes source post: 20249029

Was that Castrol really 5W-40 as it is marked? 8.3 cSt @ 100C is firmly SAE 20 grade territory and your .93 fuel dilution is OK for a DFI engine so it wasn't fuel dilution that thinned it out. Shocking that a 40 grade sheared down 2 grades that fast in only 2,000 miles. Wondering if it was mismarked or the viscosity was a lab mistake -- although the high wear numbers support it. Also Speediagnostix must have changed their testing methods or calibration at some point. I ran DI40 for many years since it was first released and the moly in it never showed up as tin like it does in all current reporting.

Quotes source post: 20249882

Its a possibility that it could have been a lighter weight Castrol given Audi changing weights and I wasn't aware. Bought the car used during the post covid used car price dip, drove it for a number of miles and then brought a case of DI40 to the dealer for an oil change. Assumed it was Castrol 40, but you know what they say when you assume. Nevertheless, the Audi oil didnt do the engine any favors. DI40 certainly proves itself. Dont know if Lake or his lab have changed testing methods. I was surprised at the high levels of calcium. However, I called up Driven and they said they did not change the formula. Probably the most important lesson learned about oil testing is not to get too worked up over one test. Do many to see the trends over time.

Thanks I am almost sure that�s a 30 or 20 grade, almost all the newer cars call for thinner oils to boost MPGs. But ya I agree this proves exactly why I said a 20 grade is a terrible choice to someone else above. That is a massive difference in wear. The level of calcium looks ok to me for the DI40. The reason it�s not much lower vs the Castrol is because the newer OEM oil specs call for lower levels of calcium to prevent LSPI especially as engines are going smaller and higher pressure (turbocharged etc)

Quotes source post: 20250238

For sure. I traded in a 2018 Q7 which started with Castrol 40w which was standard Audi oil at the time, and then went to DI40. Then I traded it in for the 2021 Q7 and have switched over to DI40 as well per the attached UAO tests. Did the same with my wife's A5 2.0T. Every Audi had huge improvements in testing with DI40. Just better lubrication resulting in less metals. But the DI50 is light years ahead of DI40 in the 996 UAO tests. I will say that i do have a jump in metals in my last 996 DI40 test (04/14/2024), but for this specific test, I had my indy take the sample, whereas I personally took all the other samples on the attached sheet using an oil pump supplied by LN without any contamination. Maybe the jump in metals on the 04/14/2024 test was due to how my indy took the sample and if something was on their gloves. Dunno. But this is why we take many tests amd look at the trend, not just one test.

I was looking closer and the root cause of the jump in the 4/14/24 metals appears to be only because it was higher mileage vis-a-vis the other samples. E.g. The 4/14/24 had 1,000 miles on the sample and if you look the wear metals were about double the 5/13/25 sample because it was double the mileage (500 miles vs 1,000 miles). In this sense the DI50 is performing similar to the DI40, I don't see light years difference. It would be interesting to run it closer to 5K OCIs which this oil can handle but you probably are not putting a ton of miles on the car. To that end I find it strange that Speediagnostix apparently dropped the "Wear / 1000 Miles" row that used to be right after Total Metals. I wonder why in the Hell they would do that? The purpose of that line was for exactly this, normalizing the wear using mileage. In post #166 if you are talking about the higher level of calcium in the DI50 in the 8/12/25 sample, ya I do agree optically that looks too high. I would have to think that's an error in the testing or something else? 2376 is too high calcium, I don't understand what is going on there. Curious to see if it persists into your next sample. The 1.55 fuel dilution in the 5/13/25 sample is a bit odd as well but I see it mean reverted back for 8/12/25.

Quotes source post: 20250528

Fore sure. All good things to consider as I continue with more oil tests. I will throw another variable in the equation, the 05/13/2025 UAO for the 996 with 500 miles includes two track days not one, without babying the rev-range. Dont know if the higher fuel dilution number had anything to do with using the throttle hard on the track for two days. To bring it back to Skips thread topic, DI50 looks to be a superior choice over DI40 for the track on many fronts. 1. Can handle higher track temps 2. Maintains higher viscosity and lower oxidation values 3. Oil pressures were higher from idle to high Gs. 4. Its very subjective, but the engine seems to run smoother. But I am a guy that doesn't use my radio and drives with the windows down listening to everything. Been doing it for nearly 23 years with it. These comments dont take away from how good DI40 is as an oil for street driving. But its tough to argue against using DI50 in the M96 instead of DI40 on the track. Quite frankly. I am going to use it year round since my car sits when temps drop below 40 degrees anyways. But my Audis will continue to get DI40.

Quotes source post: 20250558

Agreed on all counts. For the record, Jake has always recommended Driven XP6 for his track builds since day one. But based on years of data, we now know that the DI series holds up phenomenally for the track and is suitable for those with mixed street/track cars. But there is zero reason to run DI50 or something thicker on the street unless you are using it as a band-aid, which again, is what I have recommended for years for extending the life of engines with bore scoring. Thicker is not always better. I have discussed this with Lake and he's of the same mindset. Nothing has changed here in our recommendations. To summarize, it's at higher temperatures (above 230F that you'll likely see on track unless it's a cold day) that your really see the improvement going to a 50wt, but both Lake and I have not seen any evidence that proves that any 60wt will outperform XP6 or DI50.

I agree with Charles on all Technical issues here concerning viscosity but see it from a different view here in the Deep South .. The temperature here hardly ever gets to the TeensF and I can't even remember it getting below 0F so running a 10w-60 year round is no problem ... My driving around Summer oil Temp here in Dixie is 220F -230F (reading from the OEM Sensor near the main/rod bearings) and on the tight Technical Little Talladega Race Track it gets up to 260F -275F ... You guys up North or in Canada and Europe need to pay more attention to the lowest cold Temps you will see.....but i can't see a 10w being a problem.. Here is the 50,000 feet view comparison of the Viscosity of Motul 10w-60 /Di-50/DT-50/XP-6 ....... Not a lot of differences in ANY Sae Grade oil at the 50,000 feet view from Cold as a Witches Titty to Hotter than Hell , until you get down to splitting hairs at a specific Temperature .. When you get down to splitting hairs at the extreme end of the range is where it matters... the last 25F-35F So I'm just saying , Know what your oil temperatures are , know what your oil choice can handle, and you will be good !!!

Any information or data on Motul 8100 10w60? It's cheaper and easier to find than 300v.

Quotes source post: 20252576

Skip, good data. Certainly confirms the robust qualities of DI50 as well as Motul 10w60.

Skip, I have a question related to using the "no bypass valve" mod you use and how it may or may not affect the pressures you are seeing with 10w60 or other weights. If the bypass is filled with epoxy, or otherwise is disabled, then all oil has to pass through the filter eventually, correct? However, if the filter cannot support the flow rate required, will the pressure rise as the oil is waiting to pass through the filter and eventually will the oil bypass/relief valve start routing oil back to the sump once the pressure reaches 100psi or whatever the max pressure is? Is this correct? If so, does this mean the pressure may read "higher" however post filter the pressure and rate of flow is actually reduced (if the filter media cannot keep up with the required flow rate)? If this is accurate, then is it possible running a heavier oil could indicate a higher oil pressure while actual oil flow to the components downstream from the oil filter are receiving less oil flow than they would with either a thinner oil or a working bypass? The reason I am wondering about this is I am weighing 5w50 vs 10w60 and implementing the epoxy bypass disablement, and I do not want to achieve a false sense of security where my pressure looks great but the main bearings and rods are not actually getting the flow from a Motul X-Power 10w60 (ester) that they would get if instead I use a Motul 8100 X-Power 5w50 (ester) for street and novice track days.

Quotes source post: 20253451

Mind you, years ago we had several people try running a spin on oil filter adapter on track with 10w60 and had the filter elements wad up inside, destroying the engine. That's why I've always stated that a 40wt should be used, and if a thicker oil is required, a billet washable filter with a higher micron rating that allows more oil through is a must. Same would go with doing the bypass delete mod on a factory plastic housing.

Quotes source post: 20253231

I do want to point out that these are all theoretical numbers and that they will indeed be different once the oils are run. I spoke to Lake about this at great length and he says there is no 60wt that won't shear down to a 50wt or even 40wt, even Motul. He still stands by that DI50 will outperform the Motul 10w60 (or any other multi-grade Xw-60) when used in a track application. That said, the proof is in the pudding. Let's see used oil analysis results.

Good feedback and info sharing. I will be happy to share my UOA's here once I start receiving them. I should be doing a change in November and will post that once I get a report.

This is the way the oil pump delivery system works ;; The main oil pump is a positive displacement pump and can pump over 30 liters per min. Most all the time 30 liters per min is not needed but it is a Positive displacement pump so its gonna pump that much anyway...and is capable of several thousand PSI. But to keep from the pressures going to high and too much oil flowing it has a by-pass circuit that opens and keeps pressure down to under 5-7 bar by sending a LOT of oil back around to the inlet when cold, As the oil warms and more oil can flow through the system the by-pass closes some to maintain the 5-7 bar maximum and less oil is sent back to the inlet ... The oil from the main pump is sent straight to the oil filter. It also has a by-pass ...But this by-pass ONLY opens if the oil can't flow through the oil filter fast enough ...Which if oil can't flow through the filter fast enough it is bad thing....And this by-pass is located in the worst possible place, in the bottom of the cannister where any plastic, rubber, or metal debris will fall and settle.....And IF it ever opens will send this debris straight in to critical bearings ... The OEM oil pressure gauge is after the oil filter mounted on top of the head on bank 2. So if there is a loss of pressure due to the oil filter it will show on the gauge.... This is why I eliminated the by-pass on mine years and years ago and why LN has the spin-on adaptor and 1042 filter... I share Charles's concern about the small 1042 collapsing and am much more comfortable with the big LN Billet Canister or the OEM canister... I know the small filter flows about 10 gallon per min, I haven't found any specs on the big filters and haven't done any flow tests myself.... Just as a comparison of Motul 300V 10w-60 to Mobil 1 Euro 0w-40 here is the graph .... The OEM Mobil 1 0w-40 is good down to -40C ...I don't think it hardly gets that cold even in Germany... The Motul 300v 10w-60 is good down to -30C ...Thats' only a 10C difference,....

Quotes source post: 20248254

This came from Motul Tech Support: The main difference between the 8100 series and the 300V fluids, is that the 300V is designed for track and racing applications. Chemically, the 300V oils contain Esters. The Esters are part of the base oil and are produced through a chemical reaction between alcohol and acid. This is an automotive technology that Motul introduced to the world in 1971. Also, Esters are part of the lubricant make-up in aero-space lubricants as they hold up extremely well under severe cold and hot temperatures. The 8100 X-CESS GEN2 5W-40 does not contain Esters. However, the 8100 will definitely hold up under extreme road driving conditions as they have a very high HTHS rating. There is also a third option with the Motul 8100 POWER 5W-40. This is a product that is placed between the 300V and the 8100 X-Cess. This oil is designed for that tuned vehicle that is driven daily with a heavy right foot. This product also contains Esters. Another advantage for Esters is that they have a polarity and therefore, you have an advantage of a significant oil film inside the engine even if the vehicle is stored over the winter months or is parked for a significant length of time for any reason. The oil locator chooses the 8100 X-Cess for your due to the approval number required by the vehicle manufacture. The 300V and 8100 POWER do not have approval numbers, as they far exceed the factory standards and typically, cars on racetracks are not covered under warranty. === My addition: the HTHS (High Temperature High Shear) rating in motor oil measures the oil�s viscosity at high temperature (150�C) and high shear rates. I am going to go to Motul 8100 POWER 5W-40 after I use up my X-Cess. I store my car in the winter because they salt the roads here. And, a hearty tanks to Motul for recognizing some of my friends need an "... oil designed for that tuned vehicle that is driven daily with a heavy right foot."

Quotes source post: 20254651

Great info, thanks! I think I'm going with 8100 Power at a heavier weight for my next change.

Reading through all of this and man it seems complicated! I have ~160k on my car and I use Mobil 1 Full Synthetic. 0W40, changed every 5,000 miles. Daily driven, never tracked. Never driven super hard but always spirited... Does this fall into the "too thin" category? Or am I missing something? Also, kind of a side question. What do you all think of adding a bit of sea foam prior to oil changes?

If you are using a good oil it does not need any additives. M1 0W-40 is too thin, most people will agree on that. The reason oils like a 60 weight will shear down much faster is because to achieve the higher viscosity they rely on the use of viscosity index improvers. VIIs are long chain polymers that will expand as temperature rises and thus shear easily when subjected to stress, etc.

Quotes source post: 20254865

I have used Sea Foam in the past for about 500 miles prior to oil change because it's a detergent. To "clean out" the engine a bit prior to oil change. Not as an additive per se. So what would be a better oil for daily summer (and winter in MN) driving? I want this car to last!

For street use I am using Driven DI40. There are tons of used oil analysis samples posted on this site in the 997 forum in a thread called "another oil analysis". In the words of Bobby Fischer, it is "best by test". DI40 utilizes a mPAO base stock, which has outstanding oxidative and thermal stability. I have long suspected that it also utilizes alkylated naphthalenes as a co-base stock and ANs are known to address the few inherent weaknesses of mPAOs. For most people they don't need to care about this though. All they will care about is that you can run the oil for 5K miles easily and the oil maintains its viscosity and ability to protect your engine against wear.

Quotes source post: 20254853

Fwiw, I would move away from M1 and go to a better all-around oil with more Moly such as DT40 or DI40. I would not put Seafoam or anything else in your oil. However, i would use seafoam or better yet Techron in my fuel to clean the injectors and pistons.

I just want to clarify that all this talk and Technical Info about high viscosity and more robust base oil and additive protection packages is not meant to confuse or scare anyone, but just to inform that you have the option if you want to be really hard on your engine, you can do so safely if you prepare in the right way... If you don't intend to run your engine hard, you can pretty much use any oil your heart/wallet desires....( although I would never recommend any 0w-20 brand) Porsche recommends a 0w-40 or 5w-40 and 5w-50 ...some MFG's recommend a 5w-20 for normal driving and a 5w-50 for extreme driving......a 10w-60 is not that much of a stretch from a 40 weight ..... We have had and continue to have quite a few spun bearings due to oil starvation, and a thicker oil also keeps more oil in the Sump ...

Quotes source post: 20255171

Thanks PT3 - I switched from Motul 5W-40 (8100 X-Cess) to 5W-50 (300V) recently. Car has IMS solution running a Mann W7015. What's got me worried now is all of this talk about the filter collapsing due to thicker oil...? I am confused by this a little as I thought the cSt between 40/50 at operating temperature wasn't that much different given that the whole oiling system sees a much higher (thicker when cold) cSt when first started?

Quotes source post: 20255044

Or Marvel Mystery Oil. Airplane engines cost a lot of money and it always baffled me that someone would put "mystery" anything in a $ 50,000 engine. Lake Speed Jr did a couple of great YT videos about Techron. Techron is in any gas with the Top Tier Logo (Chevron, Mobil, Conoco, Union 76, etc)

Quotes source post: 20255241

Agreed. I used seafoam a few times a couple of years ago. But settled on Techron because of the work that Lake and others have done and recomendation for PEA. Gotta keep the engine running strong.

Deleted dup...

Quotes source post: 20255241

In fuel, it supposedly scavenges lead deposits and carbon deposits and helps minimize valve sticking, "morning sickness" on lower performance, lower compression engines used in many mostly older aircraft, engines that were originally intended to use fuel with less lead content (80/87, etc.) than the current 100LL. The stuff is rather popular with the tube and fabric crowd. I never used it in anything I owned only because my powerplants weren't suitable, but have happy memories of a friend's Aeronca that lived well on some MMO. I have no concrete evidence that it works or doesn't, but I have been around a lot of folks who swear by it and have only heard of one bad incident; that one well publicized one where some ag pilot(?) fueled his aircraft and put the entire dosage of MMO into one tank , decreasing the octane rating and you can guess the rest.... That really wasn't the MMO's doing. Back on topic; Redline 10w-50 in our two water coolers and 10w-60 in the 993. Kills me to run 0w-40 in the 992! Count me on team thicker is better!

Quotes source post: 20255397

I saw you posted the virgin sample of Redline 10W-50 in another forum. It is strange that the virgin sample came back with 4 ppm of aluminum; I wonder if this is a mistake or sampling error. It would be important to know since you will need this to benchmark off of. Do you have any reports with the oil used?

"Just when I thought I was out....they pull me back in" M. Corleone

Quotes source post: 20253490

DI50 after four track days with ambient temps in the high 80s (mid July-late August). Some road miles also. Using the LN Spin On adapter with the longer Wix filters. UAOS/UIDS. Also have the prior DI40 run, which included one track day but two months worth of road miles (spring driving until first event in early June). Also pre installation of UIDS and with stock Porsche oil filter.

Quotes source post: 20255863

Yep, I am a scientist and I like data. It anchors the discussion quantitatively.

Yep, looks to me that Driven has figured out the secret sauce with DI50. Would love to see some tests with XP6 as well.

Quotes source posts: 20255171, 20255044

Given this, I'll switch from Mobile 1 to a better oil. But at $19 / for a quart of DI40 5w40 Driven oil vs. ~$25 for a 5 quart of Mobil 1 full synthetic... Is this worth the upgrade for me? I drive 20-30,000 miles / year, all year round in MN... I'm not opposed to upgrading if it's worth it. But hesitant to spend the $ on a "racing" oil when that doesn't fit my driving habits...

Quotes source post: 20256024

DI40 isnt racing oil. Its street oil with substantially better ingredients for lubricating your M96 than what M1 offers. Is it worth buying 4-5 cases a year for $200 each on sale for $1,000-1,200 a year (5-6 oil changes given your mileage), or just use Mobil 1 and take the savings and put it towards a $30-40k rebuild. No right or wrong answer. But for those that want to prolong engine life, it may be worth a look.

Quotes source post: 20256063

Totally makes sense. I misunderstood and thought this was more of a racing oil. It's funny, I've been working on cars for 30 years. 10 years in auto body professionally and still, there is a world of information that I've never explored. Probably because prior to my Porsche, I mostly drove Hondas, Toyotas and junker cars...

Quotes source post: 20256154

I hear you. Its like drinking from a fire hose, even after 23 years of 996 ownership. But its all fun.

Quotes source post: 20255791

Not yet, but when I do a UOA I will post. 4 ppm of AL is ground clutter and something I've seen in Redline's oils before. Just something to remember when I do the UOA.

Quotes source post: 20254873

Please do not put any engine flush products in these engines. It's one sure fire way to kill your lifters, among other things. Just wanted to make sure that you didn't put it into the crankcase (even though the label says you can). If for some reason you think your engine needs something like this, just use the Valvoline Restore and Protect and run a short OCI.

Quotes source post: 20250528

I did call Lake to discuss this with him. Samples with less than 2000 miles do not have the wear per 1000 miles as the math actually makes the samples look worse than they actually are. Most zero hour wear metals aren’t zero for many reasons, so that’s why the math doesn’t work. Lake also said that when you get to long drain intervals this metric also isn't as useful. He said it a good indicator for oils run 3-7k miles.

Quotes source post: 20257855

Thank you. I interpret that to mean that the wear metals are not expected to be linear from a short OCI to a longer OCI. From this perspective does it make sense to, for example, be comparing wear metals in a 300 mile sample with a 3000 mile sample? Given Lake's comments you would not necessarily expect the 3000 mile sample to have 10x the wear metals if I am interpreting correctly. I also see they replaced particle count with soot %, which is nice especially for DFI engines. Thanks for posting this and clarifying it.

Quotes source post: 20257884

Exactly. The only way I think I can see a 300 mi sample being able to be compared is to another 300 mil sample. I had read an SAE whitepaper years ago stating that oils tend to have higher wear in the first 1000 miles and that the byproducts of the breakdown of the additives and their interactions with each actually improved the performance of the oil. Granted, this was about API starburst oils in boring low performance engines, but interesting nonetheless. I wish I still had all those papers. I had my office flood years ago and they all got wet and moldy and I had to throw them away. I had purchased every SAE paper on engine oil development since the 40s (starting with Lubrizol's invention of ZDDP) through the 2010s. Some great info in there. Now I download the PDFs - safer that way but I still have to print them out to take notes on the margins.

Quotes source post: 20257855

So if we follow the OCI of every 6 months and don�t hit 3-7k miles, what good is a UOA if the �math� makes it look worse than it is? How about you just use wear/hundred miles to smooth out the math and make it make sense?

Something to think about. Wr may be comparing apples to oranges here in this discussion. A 300 or 500 mile UAO tests is in my case, due to testing after a track day which involves driving the car hard thru the rev range in the fastest run group. Which is not similar in any way to street driving, which makes a 300 or 500 mile test after a track day or two much more relevant than just driving in the street. But most dont track their car and probably dont take the car thru a meaningful rev range for extended periods of time on the street. It would make sense that if the car is just used on the street, that a 2,000-5,000 miles test would make more sense.

Quotes source post: 20258122

Changing it to wear/100 miles won't resolve that they are saying it's not really accurate to extrapolate the wear numbers of a short OCI (<2000 miles) to a longer OCI (3000-7000 miles). As stated above, it is nonlinear. The UOA is still valid but the wear/1000 miles is removed for short OCIs now to avoid the customer thinking this level of wear would persist into a longer OCI. I hope that makes sense.

Quotes source post: 20258519

Yeah, I understand. But if I never make it > 2,000 miles before I change the oil, then provide me some type of metric that works for the shorter OCI. Hell, put both a short, say < 3k miles, and medium, 3k-7k, metric on there. Most guys, like myself, don�t want to be oil specialist, I want to pay a company like Speedlogix to advise me on my oil. Guess I don�t really care what metric, or how, they do it. And you can extrapolate nonlinear functions. If you have enough data points, you should be able to tell if the oil analysis will follow a trend from an established baseline. Not saying Speedlogix should do it but they definitely could establish a baseline for street driven cars, which I assume the vast majority of 996s are.

Quotes source post: 20258989

This. Starting with a VOA you can pretty easily track any spikes in the data, as long as variables are limited as much as possible.

Quotes source post: 20258989

Yeah, i never found the metric worthwhile, nor needed, regardless of miles. Easy enough to pull out a calculator if you want and run any metrics you deem important. After a few tests, you will figure out how often you want to sample your used oil and how to contain the variables.

Quotes source post: 20258989

Not saying you can't. I use cubic splines at work sometimes to extrapolate nonlinear functions but it can result in very high errors. The point of UOA is so you don't have to guess like this...

This is all great information for someone who's new to the Porsche world.

I have a 2001 Carrera with 40,000 miles. I live in Charlotte, where we have many summer days over 95 degrees, but very few winter days under 20 degrees. Beyond what the manual says, what is the oil recommendation?

Quotes source post: 20263346

DT40 is still what I would recommend, unless you track the car. DI40 would also be suitable if you don't mind the added cost.

Quotes source post: 20263355

This? Thanks

Quotes source post: 20263378

Yup. Here's a direct link: https://lnengineering.com/joe-gibbs-...rts-02406.html

Yup, DT-40 and DI-40 are good for daily commuter M96/7 engines as they were designed for them ( Moly) and are more viscous than Mobil 1 0w-40.. Mobil 1 0w-40 is just barely a 40 weight and quickly shears down to a 30 weight...and Mobil 1 5w-50 is just barely a 50 weight and quickly shears down to a 40 weight ... Since car guys love to obsess over oil threads and to be Technical, we need to clarify what is meant by Street Car.....To me , the Street Car is the one used to go to work, go to the Store, go to car shows, go for comfortable cruises, and abide by local laws/limits.... But there is a category I would call,Hooligan Street , or Hot Shoe Street , or Canyon Carvers that can generate a lot of heat and need a higher viscosity than what I would recommend for a "Street Car" ... Of course a "Track Car" is one used on a Closed Track and can generate the most heat...But the amount of heat generated can vary a LOT from driver to driver and Track To Track.....The excess Heat generated is a product of Full Power at WOT ........I have seen Data from different drivers and Tracks that range from a WOT 35% of a Lap to WOT 80% of a Lap.....Meaning in a 2 minute Lap one driver was on the floor for 42 Seconds while a different driver at a different Track was on the floor for 96 Seconds of a 2 minute Lap.... I just shipped a UAOS Track Version to a guy who is organizing the "Rennsport Dragon Rally" at the end of this month... There will be over 400 Porsche cars from 27 States and 5 Countries are registered to attend......They will be driving on 700 miles of Appalachian Mountain Roads including the " Tail of the Dragon" ;;318 turns in 11 miles over the weekend ...,,......... I'm pretty sure I was at WOT about 50% of the time and 50% on the brakes hard on the Dragon last time I was there...........This is not a Sanctioned PCA Event and I don't know if some of the roads will be closed or not ... Where I live in Bama we have a Tri-Cities called the "Dales" ...ie. Forestdale, Gardendale, and Fultondale that is nothing but Hills and Dales located at the Foothills of the Appalachian Mountains... We have some back-road routes we call "the Toes of the Dragon" through several counties all very rural scarcely populated areas where we can do very early mourning runs through in a group of Porsches..... So if you are doing this kind of "Street" driving I recommend you up the viscosity from a 40 weight ..

WOT % is a great way to frame the conversation!

OK, so you all have been extremely helpful with advice and experience, and I have been able to get to a starting point with my new to me 996.1 which will see street use and Green/Blue Group PCA DE action. In terms of oil control I have done the following: Added UAOS with Track Drain and new filler tube - the most difficult part for me was getting the existing Norma clamps loose, and getting the accordian drain tube to install flush all the way down the neck to the sump return. Installing the b*tch bolt was not hard for me for some reason (socket, U joint, tape, extension) Added Hartech Racing Deep Sump (2Qt) with the modified stock plastic oil baffle and added the LNE Skid Plate Upgraded to the 997 Oil Pressure Bypass piston and spring Replaced all 3 Timing Chain Tensioners with the upgraded versions Added the 997 Oil Return Tubes to replace the Swirl Pots Epoxied ceramic magnets to the exterior of the stock plastic oil filter canister and added an LNE magnetic oil pan drain plug to catch all the swarf, but did not eliminate the function of the filter pressure bypass since I change oil no longer than every 5K miles and do not expect flow to reduce to the point of needing the bypass unless it is a serious malfunction Switched to Motul 8100 Power 5w-50 (ester base) oil Pulled fuel pump fuse (bank C slot 4) when first re starting until I was able to crank oil pressure using the key, then re installed fuse and let the engine start. It is running like a top, the loudest sound aside from the mufflers is the alternator charging. It starts silently with no chain noise The oil pressure gauge indicates 4 bar or greater pretty much anything over 2K rpm Idle indicates just about 1.75 bar while temp gauge is between the 8 and the 0 on the 180 I have a DE in December - I will let you know if anything unexpected happens related to oil lubrication I will share UOA data when I get to an oil change interval Thank you all

Quotes source post: 20273213

Since you�re going to the track, get Coopduc�s oil temp sensor and install it. Takes very little time and takes so much guess work away.

If it is simple to do, I will. I can't search anything and come up with Coopduc? Do you have a link, perhaps? I also have a 996.1 so can/will also be able to use the diag panel on the AC screen. I think 1c is the oil temp in Celsius and 6c is the coolant temp in Celsius

Quotes source post: 20273233

Search his user name on this site and send him a PM. He did a fantastic job on this kit.

Here you go on the temp thread. Progress on digital temp gauge - Page 23 - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums

Quotes source post: 20273233

@996hobby ...Oil Temp is not displayed on the Diag Screen of the A/C ......The 1c value shown is unknown, I'm not sure who started the rumor that it is Oil Temp but it is NOT ... I did one very similar to Coopduc's 7 years ago for Sally, but never put them on the Market.. You Tube That said... Coopduc's gauge is less conspicuous and elaborate but gives the same valuable and accurate information...

I'm just going to drop this screenshot of an email I received today from LN about "certainly not" using DT50 (10w50) in the winter:

^^^^^ we been using 10w in Winter for 50 years here in Bama , there was nothing "thinner" even made way back when and the new synthetics and especially Esters are even better in Winter than the old Dino Conventional oils in Extreme Cold and Extreme Hot Temps... Like Lake says...Application dictates Chemistry .... Its all about the " Temperatures " ...

I still plan on switching to a heavier oil for my next change (about 1k miles to go). I just thought that was interesting considering I've been following this thread and trust your judgement.

Just my opinion : I would consider Jake Raby/Charles Navarro as subject matter experts in the Porsche arena . I would consider Porschetech3 a subject matter expert also . You are NEVER going to get everyone to agree on everything . Just look at all the replies in this thread of all the different brands/weights of oil that different shops use or recommend . I say use the oil you like , do oil analysis and let the data guide you .

Quotes source post: 20284317

Huzzah!

Question on oil analysis: Can you get accurate results when you are using a magnetic drain plug??? Or, put another way, wouldnt the use of a magnetic drain plug be skewing the amounts of the wear metals in the oil sample?

Quotes source post: 20283587

I've been watching all these videos, and reading all these posts these last few weeks. I even created my own post about cold weather oil - https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post20283760 I finally decided on DT40 5w40 as my winter choice. But now this says "certainly not in the winter" and I feel like I'm back at square one! So for a winter in MN, what is the best oil recommendation for weight? It's approaching shortly!

It says DT50/DI50 but not in the winter. You are using DT40.

Quotes source post: 20284502

Aaaaaah, thanks! I misread that!

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It's a non-issue. The particle size the magnet will catch are larger than what the UOA will catch. I will say 20+ years ago I did testing on magnetic filtration and that was noticeable. You Tube If memory serves me, on the 964 I fitted this system to and the Fe levels went to 1ppm.

A nice uograde to take a look at from LN since we are talking oil. Billet oil filter housing with a magnet and your choice of with or without a bypass. Easy to find oil filter.​​​​​ Billet M96/M97 Boxster Cayman 911 Oil Filter Housing w/ Magnet https://share.google/NIjdIoiVMdFsH1dKT

I don't think we disagree on lubrication properties it's just that we have made a few different recommendations... There is no one lubricant that can do do everything 100% perfect and be cost effective with no down sides... If there was the oil companies would make only one oil per brand... Its like two different people going to two different Doctors ( or even the same Doctor) wanting recommendations for Blood Pressure Medicines......They are very likely to get two different Prescriptions and/or Doses.....even though they are both Male, Humans, 35-45 years old.... Humans just love to try and make everything fit into a nice little certain size Box ... Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't ...

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Bump for additional discussion. I'm OK with heavier or more expensive oils, but do I have to worry about the filter now? Is this a thing?

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If you stick with OEM, apparently not.

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Unless you have IMS Solution. Then you're using filters that were ostensibly designed for a 4cyl 2L (or smaller) engine

Check out post #238 above.

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The Napa 1042 was used on the 97-04 Chevrolet Corvette. It has a very high flow rate and high burst strength. That's why I built the spin on oil filter around it.

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Nope. Not unless you drive in cold weather. It was common to see Boxsters and 996s here in the midwest have no compression in the winter due to the use of M1 15w50. The lifters would pump up and hold the valves open. That's with a stock filter arrangement. Again, thicker oils when the engine will see higher operating temperatures and track use is warranted, but there is no evidence based on used oil analysis to support running thicker oils except on the track. That's not me making the claim. Just look at the facts and the reports that have been shared here for years.

Happened into an interesting thread on rennlist from a Motul representative who is no longer on the forum. Nice to hear from someone not sold on Driven, lol. Some advice from an alternative expert, eg., use of higher viscosity oils such as 10W-60. A good read: https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...n-motul-2.html

Yep Charles, I have seen the same thing with loss of Compression due to Mobil 1 0w-40 that is over 2 years in service..... At the Porsche Dealership with the Factory Service guide saying 2 years or 15,000 miles, there were many that went that long.... I remember several times going out to the parking lot to bring in a 996 or Boxster and the engine "almost" starting then loosing all compression....You can tell when this happens because the it makes a totally different sound cranking when it has no compression...I learning it that happens, I could quickly hold it on the floor and get it to start and all was well.... Even the best synthetic oil will get 2x-3x thicker if ran too long with contaminants, soot, moisture all getting heated up will turn to Tar... Since this is a Technical Forum, here is some more Technical Facts for the masses...If you can't deal with Technical stuff just skip over, a know Charles and several others appreciate the Technical stuff.. It's all about the Temperatures...What the running temp is and what the Ambient temp is....If you worry about oil performance you need an Oil Temp Gauge....You have an Oil Pressure Gauge,, Use it .. As far as ambient Temps go, Tomorrow mourning at 5am in Chicago it is expected to be 11*C(51*F), and at 5am tomorrow morning in B'ham Al. it is expected to be 24*C (76*F), so if I have Motul 10w-60 oil in my 996 and you have Driven DT40 in your 996 in Chicago, my car will have a;slightly "thinner" oil viscosity at start-up ... I don't know why it is so hard for some people to grasp, it has been talked about from both ends and so many questions... If you have been asking questions and still don't understand, you are asking the wrong questions... Sample question ::: IS 300 cst viscosity too thick and is it going to damage my oil filter?? Answer :: Apparently not because that is what it is going to be in the mourning !!

I have a little off topic question is DI60 too thick to use in summer months on my 11 Turbo S there’s a great deal going on right now for it also I have a few cases of DI40 can I mix it to create a DI50 combo?

Charles may respond, but he has advised previously that this would be OK if you are dead set on doing it, however that he still recommends DI40: https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...di60-di50.html I am curious where you are getting the DI60 though since it has been discontinued.

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Jeggs has it on sale now for @ $11 qt. https://www.jegs.com/i/Driven-Racing...18606/10002/-1

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Yes but it says they only have 1 left in stock.....

I understand thru a post by Charles awhile back that Driven will make more DI60, but they need a very big order to produce it which doesnt exist yet. Everybody should remember that 2-3 years ago, there wasn't much interest in DI50, now they can't keep it stocked. While Skip has been talking about higher viscosity oil for quite some time, its taken the US Porsche community awhile to move from 40 to 50 for the M96. I am guilty of It. For sure, purpose and temperature conditions obviously play a large role.

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I wouldn't run a 60 weight even in my NA car. Those turbos are spinning at 5-7k on start up and it's going to take some time for a 60 weight oil to reach them even if it's 80 degrees out. I wouldn't recommend it .....but it's not my car!

DI60 is a 10w-60, not a 60 weight. It is a formula that flows like a 10weight at -25 celsius and flows equivalent to how a 60weight would flow when it is operating at 100 degrees celsius. So, a 10w-60 only emulates a 60w at 100 celsius and a 10w at -25 celsius, and in between it is going to be somewhere between the two extremes. That being said, it still may be too thick as it is a lot thicker than a 10w-50 at 100 celsius and a lot thicker than a 10w-40 at 100 celsius. I grabbed this from a quick google search, to help clarify: At 100�C, 10W-60 engine oil is thicker than 5W-50 oil , with a typical kinematic viscosity range of approximately 22.7-24.8 centistokes (cSt) compared to 5W-50's typical range of 17.1-21.0 cSt. Plus, thicker oil is less efficient at evacuating heat than a thinner oil is, so in a turbo bearing the oil has to balance between providing the required lubrication, while also being able to help move the heat away from the bearings and out to the atmosphere...

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LOL, no kidding :P). My point was you can run whatever you want but I wouldn't run a w60 in a. turbo car let alone a NA.

Remember guys, this is a Technical Forum , for arguments sake, use Technical Terms... Instead of saying "I would never use XX weight oil " ...Use CST instead...then see how it sounds.......that is what is most important... Once past that, there is more discussion/debate to be had...there always is with oil ...lol When it comes to TurboChargers, they get the hottest after they are turned off.....I have seen many literally cook the oil AFTER they are turned off....When they are first turned off there is no more flow of oil and no more flow of water ( for the water cooled ones ).....and they will literally sit there and COOK ...( this is where extreme high temp Esters oils will shine )

This 40/50/60 debate really doing my head in. (throw in the 'moly' to help bore scoring...). I'm just writing the below for no other reason than to have the educated types help me. At the end of the day a rebuild here in Oz is 60-90K!!!! (Labour is 270-300 per hour) and that's what I'm trying to minimise the risk ok. (that said I'd look at the $ to ship to LN/Slakker/Hartech vs having it done here..) but I digress. I'm Currently running 5W-50 300V which I went up from 5W-40 Motul X-Cess GEN2 as I saw pressure drops on hard cornering and also low pressure when I pushed hard (3000rpm was just below 3 bar... maybe 2.7ish.. It came back to 3bar and above once I was cruising on the freeway for 5-10 min). WIthout an oil temp gauge I can only assume oil got hot and thinned out. I note the pressure drops on cornering is due to being a wet sump. If I've understood correctly a way to help minimise those drops is a thicker oil because the scavenge pumps are more efficient at getting it back into the sump vs when the oil is thinner. (PT3 has explained this else where and I hope I've understood that...) Then you have Lake Speed Jr running 30 in his Boxster. It has the same HTHS as the factory Mobil 1 (one of his YT videos) Then there's posts by Charles about thicker oil causing hex drive bolts to break on the oil pump and the tab on the scavenge pump along with oil filters collapsing. Especially when one is running the IMS solution and can't get the 'preferred' filters here in Oz (running Mann-Hummel) I'm not trying to stir anything. I'm trying to get it straight in my head.

I�ve been keeping an eye on my oil pressure while navigating a specific banked freeway on-ramp and the best solution to those pressure drops during hard cornering is the UIDS. Without the UIDS, I�d notice the oil pressure drop to around 2.5 bar. With the UIDS, I�m always above 4.0 bar. You mentioned waiting 5-10 minutes for the oil pressure to rise back to normal while cruising. This is indicative of the oil being overheated. I understand it�s summertime in Australia right now, and you may want to think about ways to cool your oil down faster: whether that may be a third radiator and/or a larger engine oil cooler.

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I looked at UIDS. But the coin was a lot (once you got it here to OZ) and you lose ground clearance. I drive down a lot of dirt tracks (Classic Rallying / Navigational Rallying) so clearance is important to me. I don't track. Yea definitely the oil thinned out at temp. It was 5000RPM 2/3/4 for 20+ minutes. The Water was fine at just over 80C. Cheapest solutions was 50 oil vs 3rd radiator or bigger oil cooler (which I'd install the 997.1S version if it came to that). going to be 33C here today... and it is still spring!!! Feeling HOT HOT HOT!!!

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Have you done the UAOS with track drain yet so you can run 2 qts extra oil which will help substantially?

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I didn't want this to get away from the 40/50/60 weight too far...but FVD X.51 baffled sump (installed). Purchased the UAOS from PT3 along with GT3 master cyl and rotors/pads (yet to decide which) ready to go in very soon.

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Great! But in all honesty, the FVD 0.6 sump doesnt do much for oil pressure and oil starvation. Its too small. But 0.6 quarts more oil is better than 0.6 quarts less. This is where the UAOS T will help you because it will allow you to run 2 quarts of extra oil above full. With the FVD sump, that's 2.6 qts more oil. You will see substantial oil pressure improvement. Going from 40 to a thicker 50 oil will incrementally add some more improvement as well on top of the extra oil quantity. Especially in your hot weather. Just make sure you are running the best high viscosity, high temp, high moly oil you can find. For sure, better cooling adds more incremental improvement. You made the most important step that any of us can make, which is you got the UAOS T so you can run more oil quantity. The M96 needs lots and lots of high viscosity, high moly oil to make it happy. With the UAOS T and a 2qt deep sump, my m96 is happy as hell with 12.5 qts of oil. Loves it.

@justinbAUS The thicker oil on the M9X engine " keeps more oil in the Sump" .....to keep from having oil starvation......because thinner/hotter oil will "let more oil go into the heads" ( where it doesn't need to be that much oil ) ... You don't "need" that much oil in the heads,....yes everything there needs oil,but it doesn't need 4-5 quarts of oil pilled up in there..... Thats why a lot of True Race engine builders put "restrictors" in the oil system to limit the oil to the heads, and keep more oil ready to go where it is needed the most.... to lube and cool the Rod and Main Bearings.. I'm surprised you feel the Twin Tunnel Port/UIDS doesn't have enough ground clearance...I purposely built it to have.400 "more" ground clearance than all 2 quart Deep Sumps.....It is so much better at picking up and controlling oil in High G turns it didn't need to be 2quarts deep, just 1 quart deep is plenty .... You guys Down-Under have some crazy costs of living .....

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I think the minimal loss of ground clearance is worth the peace of mind that the UIDS provides. I would rather run larger tires or raise/stiffen the springs to accommodate the reduced clearance. It�s great that your water temp is only 80C after stressing the engine so much. I would guess that your cooling system has enough cooling reserve to handle the upgraded oil cooler. Also, I am in agreement with GC996 about getting the UAOS installed and overfilling the oil. This, in combination with an upgraded oil cooler, may be enough to keep the pressure up acceptably.

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Honestly if I knew how my business was going to go I would have probably done it. At the time It was the $6000 landed plus additional cost for sump guard. I had just bought the car and had already spent 80K on the car and 25K on full suspension refresh, tyres (they were 10 years old) and other bits and pieces. We were prepping our house to sell (100K in touch ups and REA costs) Slakker wrote that they've seen good data on the FVD X.51 sump for road tyres but admitted track rubber requires a deep sump. Also suggested 300V 5W-50 in a thread I started a while ago. I've travelled to the US a lot. Mainly Cali. (where we land) and Manhattan (close to BIL who's in Toronto - we go to the cottage during summer ). Despite the exchange rate food and services are EXTREMELY cheap in the US. Levi 501 jeans in Australia, for example don't go over 40" waist and don't have multiple leg lengths. So choice is limited. (I need 42" so order off eBay from USA) Anyhow in Oz they are 160AUD which is 103USD. I know I've bought, pre-covid, 501s in my size and leg length for 40USD from an outlet mall. Just quickly now on eBay USA 39USD! Your UAOS landed here ended up costing me 1600. I should has said to drop the price to below $1000AUD on the included invoice. Once it crosses $1000AUD we have to pay duty (10%) plus handling fee ($90) plus storage fee while it is held waiting payment.

I got some Data from a local car at Barbers Motorsport Track on the FVD x51 and it sucked....lol...of course it was compared to the UIDS that was installed for the next day of the 2 day DE Event... I buy a lot of parts for the UAOS from Germany, The Netherlands and from the UK and get hit with the Tariffs on all of it... It sucks....but I voted for it so can't complain, he is doing what he said he would do ....( I just didn't think "I" would have to pay for the Tarriffs.... )

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FVD x51 HAS to be better at least than stock? and eventually coupled with additional oil from the UAOS gotta be a good thing...

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Yes. The combo is substantially better than factory AOS and factory sump. The UAOS T w/ 2qt sump is damn good. But the best combo is the UAOS T w/ UIDS.

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Lake doesn't track his car and he is running one of our Nickies sleeved blocks with SUMEbore APS coated bores (no worry of bore scoring), so his Boxster isn't a good example to live by, but he does used oil analysis at every oil change, so he'd know if there was an issue. He has the trend data along with decades of UOAs from these engines for comparison. Lastly, DI30 is very robust and performs better than M1 0w40, so that's why he gets away with using it.

Does anyone have a breakdown of driven oils ex. Is the DI50 -10w50 or 5w50 id like weights on DI50 DI40 DT50 DT40 thanks

Here you go. Driven Racing Oil: Protection + Performance � Driven Racing Oil https://share.google/PE9MbNsqUmZaQltrP

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Hmmm. If only you knew someone in Germany that could mail USPS...

Driven is having their annual sale. Picking up some DI50 at $187/case - fantastic price + free shipping.

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That's a nice gesture/thought, but even shipping USPS would still have to make the Declarations when coming from Germany..

Sorry, just to follow up here... would this advice apply to M97s in a 997.1 C2S, or is this strictly focused on M96? I imagine the architecture is similar enough... Second, does anyone have data on the moly / additive content for MOTUL 8100 POWER 5W-50 vs. DT50 and DI50? Would be curious which of the three would be the best application for a summer-only driven M97 (weekends, canyons, occasional track day). Third, would any of the above require a different oil filter or could the usual OEM+ apply given its a summer only car where the oil should be thin enough to pass through easily? Climate is southern Canada where the coldest start is at 40* F ALSO: Has anyone tested the new Driven HP-X 5W-50? https://www.drivenracingoil.com/prod...motor-oilquart

Put the following info together based on info directly from Driven. It seems HP-X is the best formulation when looking at low temp starts, moly, detergents, and high temp viscosity for those in climates where starts near 0*C are possible but want to retain suitable viscosity at 100*C+

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We had time set aside to do testing with Driven on HP-X but then Iran happened and then the base stock shortages hit and we had to table this. It's on my wish list, but first I want to see bench tests compared to DI and DT, as they are completely different products compared to HP-X. I'm currently getting in engine baselines on DT and DI to also then follow up with HP-X. It just takes time and money to do all of this.

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Thanks for the response. How are they different oils? Are all still mPAO based? Looking forward to the tests!

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I am not privy to the specifics, just that they are a 100% new formulation.

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I heard back from Driven: the DI and DT are made with mPAO base, while HP-X and HP-X Euro Supercar formulations employ a 'trilogy' synthetic base oil system of Ester, PAO, and Alkylated Naphthalene. Will defer to @Charles Navarro @Porschetech3 on if this is a good update or not. My initial impression is that a formula with Ester is a good thing for those of us trying to prevent bore scoring, though we lose some high temp shear protection.

Did I read correctly that there is concern that the xW-50 oils will wad up the 1042 filter used with the spin-on adapter ( link ) and that the billet no-bypass cartridge style oil filter housing ( link ) should be used instead? What about the long spin-on filter ( link )? Application will be a "hooligan street" car that might/probably see an HDPE event in typical Savannah, Georgia ambient temps (hot).

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If anyone is interested... a good YT on AN base oil. You Tube

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On my 996.2 I use the LN Billet oil filter housing w/bypass w/ the UAOS w/ Track drain, 2Qt deep sump, and 12.5 qts of DI50 on the track. Oil pressure is stable and no problems. I always run fresh oil on the track and a fresh oil filter. Never had an oil filter collapse or problem running DI50. Cannot speak to what happens to the filter if I was not running a bypass with DI50. I believe that Jake and Charles developed a wire mesh oil filter, or were working on one which may be an option for those that want extreme strength. But I dont have any details.

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It's been out since last year. We do have a shorty version in the queue for those running a single input adapter off their spin on oil filter adapter to plumb in an accusump. For the regular spin on filter adapter (13/16-16 thread): https://lnengineering.com/ln-enginee...-16-16-thread/ For the IMS Solution spin on filter adapter (3/4-16 thread): https://lnengineering.com/ln-enginee...3-4-16-thread/

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I thought this was with the xW-60, not xW-50? I�m running the taller 1042 filters with the LN no bypass for this reason with my DI50. The key is only turned above 50 degrees ambient.

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You're right, it was 10w60 ( link to post ). I don't plan on running a 60 so it sounds like I won't need the extreme strength of a wire mesh filter. Looks like I have the choice between the spin-on adapter and billet housing. Thanks guys.

Do OEM filters work for 5w-50 or up to 15w-50 or should we consider going the LN spin on route?

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OEM stock oil filter canister is absolutely fine with 60 or 50 oils. Just use a quality cartridge with a sturdy plastic cage like the oem one, or a K&N is my choice. Lots of good capable quality cartridge filters on the market. The plastic housing is very beefy/strong compared to beer can thick spin ons... And you can choose to run with the filter by-pass or disable it, your choice with the oem canister filter...

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thanks, this is helpful. Will have to do a bit more research on how to bypass vs the LN adapter�

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The 51042 when paired with the spin on oil filter adapter is rated to run a 5w40. Thicker, we'd run a larger filter or even consider a billet washable filter instead.

80 track days of using a Baldwin B31 and Motul 300V 15W50.

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Baldwin filters are top notch.

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I'm leaning towards your billet housing with the 2x strong bypass spring, and HP-X Euro Supercar 5W-50 at my next change for my M97. Just unsure if to use an OEM canister or perhaps a Baldwin P40094.

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Charles, Can this housing be used with a stock filter element for street use? I like the idea of the easily inspected and larger filter area filter element for use with 5w-50 oil

If you want to use a factory filter cartridge, you'd want this instead: https://lnengineering.com/billet-m96...sing-w-magnet/

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Charles I am currently running the larger filter purchased from LN on my 3.8 FSI with IMS Solution . I currently use 5w40 but if I decide to run 5w50 will this oil filter have any issues ? The heat/humidity gets quite high here in Georgia and thinking about going with 50 weight .

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I don't imagine. The filter used with the IMS Solution has a bypass AND that's a larger filter. Should be golden.

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Excellent . Thanks for the quick reply .

After going through this thread months and months ago, I switched from Motul 5w40 to Motul 8100 5w50 at my last oil change about 6 months ago. I'm currently up for my next oil change and the price on the 8100 has gone up astronomically in addition to being especially difficult to find, so I'm considering giving DI50 a shot. Based on the last few posts, should I not be running 50w if I'm running OEM filter set up?

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re: cost. The war in the middle east has caused this. There has been damage to manufacturing plants that affect the global supply of lubrication oils and greases. A significant % of the worlds base oils (I have over 50% in my head...) came from the plant(s) hit You Tube and I think motor oil geek did a video as well.

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Motul 5W-50 such as Motul Sport or 8100 Power is primarily an ester-based (Group V) . That means no dino oil is used in its formulation, its pure synthetic oil, so the price should not be affected by dino oil production. Unless unscrupulous dealers/manufactures are raising the price to meet the price of blends and dino oils..? Motul Sport and Motul 8100 Power oils are manufactured in France or Europe, no where near middle east...

Lots of fear-mongering going on, for political purposes, and that creates the perfect environment for retailers to price gouge. Same thing happened during the tariffs. All the talk about the tariffs nonstop at 25% or 15% or what have you, and the retailers just started marking stuff up accordingly. What the media glossed over was the fact that tariffs are applied at the wholesale level, so by the time it hits the consumer, the price should have only been affected by a small fraction of that tariff rate. But because of all the fear-mongering and ignorance, the retailers could get away with murder. Oil companies making record profits right now.

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Don't know what to tell you but It's significantly more expensive than what I payed for it 6-7 months ago, in addition to very few retailers carrying it. Putting all the war BS aside, I'm just looking for clarification on it being ok to run DI50 with a an OEM filter.

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Running a 50 or a 60 oil with oem filter canister is fine, and recommended by many in the know, and one of the biggest/best m96 engine builders in the USA and Europe.... Yes, agree the cost of Motuil has increased, just saying its got nothing to do with its factories being war damaged/destroyed as mentioned on this thread...

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Thanks, I appreciate the clarification.

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I'm only going off what I've read... https://www.cnbc.com/2026/05/01/stra...ury-autos.html

So are you saying when the cost goes up at the wholesale level only a small portion of is passed on? I’ve got news for you that’s not happening. Now maybe since the tariffs are temporary they may be not completely passed on.

Costs are going up whether we like it or not.

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No, thats not what I was saying, Im saying that the misinformation and resulting ignorance regarding tariffs created a market environment which allowed retailers to raise their prices by an amount equal to the tariff rate (%), when that amount would have far exceeded the amount in dollars that their actual procurement price went up. However, some retailers did not raise their prices at all, and instead absorbed the increase in their wholesale price in order to retain market share, i.e. Mercedes-Benz.

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What misinformation and resulting ignorance regarding tariffs are you talking about? We all know that it's a sales tax on the American importer. A lot of them knew they were illegal and would eventually be returned just like what is happening now ( the same thing will happen on the current ones) so they decided not to increase and would eventually be returned.

I know this is fun...however, this thread is about oil viscosity. Let's get back to oil....

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Well here is the lifecycle of my car's first use of Motul V300 5W-50 The 5th April sample with 1.3% fuel dilution that was run out of their Perth facility seems to be an anomaly.... Also no TBN as machine is out of service at present.

Here is a comprehensive technical test on 3 same K24 Honda engines testing 20-30-and 40 weight oils.....this confirms what I have been saying for years and in this thread.. As expected, the 40 weight smashed the 20 and 30 weight in Protection Under Stress, Long Term Wear , Oil Analysis PPM, and Overall Protection... The 20 weight was best for Fuel Efficiency , They claimed the 30 weight was best "all-around average" but I am all about Longevity and Protection, and don't give a hoot about fuel efficiency ( except maybe for my little SUV ) PROVEN: We Tested 0W-20, 5W-30 & 5W-40 in the Engine — One Clear Winner!

assuming DI50 = 15W50 is this stuff that much better than mobil1 15W50?

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How about reverse the question. What makes M1 15w50 better than DI50 for the M96?

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You've got a Mezger... you could run it on olive oil and it would be fine.

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LMAOO...The main differences in the Mezger and M96...= Mezger has 4 Scavenge return pumps pumping oil back to the remote mounted dry Sump Tank , + oil feed plain IMS bearing + Nikasil Cylinders + simple robust AOS System.. M96 has 2 Scavenge return pumps pumping oil back to the Integrated Dry Sump Tank + ball bearing IMS+ Lokasil cylinders + frail/inefficient AOS System Upgrades for the Scavenge Pumps , Oil Sump, IMS bearing, Cylinders, and AOS System are all available to make the M96 very close to the Mezger technically .. I don't know of anything else that really needs upgrading, right ?

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i was just curious why the DI50 is $20 a quart

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Driven falls more in the realm of "boutique " and has ample Molly , whereas Mobil 1 is a main-stream Big Kahuna Oil Company It's kinda like getting your hair cut at your favorite Barber Shop vs a big chain hair cutting place ..

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Some will balk at my test rig and methodology, but we learned that when testing oils way back when, that a mighty 3 cylinder is great for shredding oil. Case in point, my daily driver Jimny with the K6A 660cc turbo inline 3, which lives its entire life between 4,000 and 6,000 rpm at WOT: We learned almost 15 years ago that you didn't need to run the oil very long when it lives life at WOT all the time to get meaningful results. 5064 - DT40 5066 - DI40 6844 - M1 ESP X4 (Meets both A40/C40, coincidentally Lake has said this oil is significantly better than the A40 M1, so I'd hate to see what that would do in my Jimny's poor engine) I will say that the DT40 sample is a bit skewed as the prior oil change was my winter fill and it pretty much only saw 4 mile drives to and from the office with fuel dilution off the chart from short tripping, so I'm guessing that's why the Tin levels were high as thicker oil doesn't flow as well cold and oil never really gets to temp.

More Lake Speed Dyno and Oil Lab Test showing that a 20w-50 will have less wear than a 5w-20 oil ....From tests done 2 years ago.. Skip to 33.00 to 37.00 min for the oil analysis recap if you want to jump over the boring same ole same ole.. 20W-50 vs 5W-20: Which Oil Protects Better?

So I have a head scratcher here. After my engine rebuild my builder told me to run Motul Xcess 8100 5w40 which I did for 30K+ miles. I always had consumption - we'll say around 3/4 qt. per 600 miles. This past winter I decided to switch to Driven DI50 to see if it would help with oil pressure drops (there's a long right-hand off-ramp in which I could see the needle drop around 1.5 bars. It did help, but my consumption went up! I was now around 3/4 qt. per 400 miles. I wasn't happy about spending more and getting less so my last oil change a few weeks ago I switched to Liquid Moly 5w-50 molygen. It's been 500 miles and I still have full bars and confirmed with the dipstick that it is still full! What is going on? My 2 uneducated theories - 1) When I broke the car in I was way to gentle IMO so maybe it's taken this long to finally seal the rings? 2) something is wrong, lol. Anyone able to provide some insight?

The ring seal could very well be the reason. There are two ideas around breaking in a motor...you either baby it for a certain number of miles with varying revs (limited highway miles) or you romp on it with increasing the revs and load and WOT application as you go up in miles. I know that there are ways to measure blow-by which helps to understand if the rings are seated properly. I believe that's what Slakker does which allows you to drive your car home after a rebuild or go straight to the track. Hope the oil consumption continues to trend down for you! One one hand, there's so much info on why you want to chose a particular oil and then on the other, zero logic on why your engine likes one over the other even though the viscosity is the same.

Skip has an entire thread on blow-by.

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Yup - I bought a manometer and tested - all looked well at least for testing the AOS.

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Yesh, different test.

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Oh... Guess I'll investigate a bit more.

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FWIW: Slakker "pre-breaks in" their engines in house. They include around 100 or so miles of actual driving to maker certain that everything works as intended, and no "surprise" issues. Any oil or other problems are rare. Slakker also reccos specific oils for "street use" rebuilds: DI50 or Motul 300 V 5w50. For "track use" is Motul 300 V 10w60. These are also requirements for Slakker Warranty. YMMV ​​​​​​​YMMV