Child seat safe for a toddler?

I've owned Porsches for several years, but when my wife got pregnant a few years ago I traded in my 2003 996--both for money and practicality reasons. But I got a G35 Coupe and now I have an Audi A4. I still miss my 996, and now that my daughter is two and a half I'd really like to get a Porsche again. So my questions are this: I know there are child seats that fit in the 996/997 cars based on other forum posts, but would my daughter be as safe? She's now in the middle of the back seat of my Audi and seems quite protected. Am I a bad father for wanting my beloved sports car back? It's not like the Audi is a piece of junk, it's just that the only car on the planet that I truly love and get excited about driving is a Porsche Carrera! Any parents of little ones with advice? Thanks in advance!

I am neither a scientist nor an auto-safety expert, but this seems like a ground ball. The Porsche, being a lighter and smaller car, is inherently less safe than the Audi A4, all other things (design, build quality, crash testing, etc.) being equal, which they probably are. Except of course for seating position. The middle rear is safer than either side. There being no such position in the Carrera, the Audi again seems safer. How about a Cayenne, which I can't even believe I'm suggesting? Update : I forgot to mention that I have two sons (5 and 6) who routinely ride on boosters in the back seats of my Carrera.

what booster seats are you using? Hows the fit? TIA

Between the active safety (great handling and great brakes) and passive safety (very good chassis rigidity and crush zones), I would put the 911 right up with the better cars from a safety perspective. In fact, we refer to my 996 as the "family car" around my house. I have found that the best booster seats for the 996 are the Britax Parkway. The key factor is that you need a seat that is narrow at the top. The Parkway curves back in at the top, which is very helpful. Finally, always remove the seat bottoms. They are held in by velcro, so they are easy to install and remove.

Life is inherently unsafe. All that remains is for us to choose the amount of risk that we can live with. Cars are far safer now for children then when we grew up. Designing for crash-worthiness was less of a priority when we were kids. Because our parents were bad parents? Child car seats were a non-issue. Because our parents were bad parents? Seat belts were often unused. Because we were all stupid? Or maybe our values changed. Maybe as a society we've become obsessed with protecting our children and obsessed with creating a world where we are protected from doing dumb things (helmet laws, seatbelt laws, etc). I walked a mile to kindergarten as a kid, and my wife plans to drive the kids 5 blocks to school, I think until college. And the statistics show that there's no more dangers to kids now, then there ever was. What's changed is our obsession. According to the book Freakonomics, there is no data that supports the claim that childseats are more safe then seatbelts. The data only shows that childseats are safer then no restraint at all. <exits soapbox> We have 3 kids, ages 4, 2 & 2. They ride in the 996. The smallest is in a childseat, and the other two sit on small boosters. The two kids on the booster seats use a little device that holds the lap belt and shoulder belt together, such that the shoulder belt doesn't go across their necks.

Getting on Soapbox as an engineer . . . THAT IS INSANE The seatbelts do not go in the right position across the body of a child. As such, the primary function of a childseat, or a booster seat, is to ensure that the child is strapped to the car in a manner that distributes the load across the child in as optimal location as possible. No child seat or booster seat? The belt could choke the child as it slid across the neck, or the upper body of the child could simply slip out altogether. Children and booster seats are no different than seatbelts. They are merely devices that are designed to ensure that the seatbelts, which were designed for larger bodies, can be adapted for use to a child's body. So the choice really is: seatbelts or no seatbelts. The ONLY smart choice is seatbelts. If you are going to use seatbelts for children, again, the ONLY smart choice is to use a proper child's seat or booster seat. THAT is the choice. If Freakonomics is saying that, it just shows that either the authors do not understand the relevant engineering or the people who compiled the data did not. Ask the wrong questions, and you will get useless data. Useless data will lead to bad decisions. Off Soapbox. Ranger, I take it you have fraternal twins? My daughter is 4 and my identical twin boys are 3. Sounds like we have fairly similar situations.

I use two Britax Starrisers with the backrests removed. It was the only seat I found that would fit my cabriolet. Threads here: Seat thread at Renntech Seat thread at Rennlist To answer your actual question: the fit is perfect. The bottom of the booster fits exactly in the small seating area between the sidewall and the hump. My kids are tall enough that the shoulder belts ride properly across their shoulders - which is essential for safety.

Fitting a car or booster seat in a cab is much more challenging since the seatbacks lean forward a little. Here is the Parkway: http://www.britaxusa.net/products/360_parkway.aspx

ALso have the Britax Starrisers in the 996. Finding any booster that fits isn't much of a problem as most are slim enough. I personally like the Britax and Recaro lines. Since your daughter is still 2 1/2... you need to check that she is both tall enough and weighs enough to be in a booster. To that end, the real challenge in our cars is finding a ChildSeat that will fit for when your kids are still too small to be in boosters. Do a search here and you'll find an old thread with recommendations and my pics of a Recaro Young Sport installed and Britax Starriser installed. -Paul

The Starrisers have been discontinued. The Parkway is the replacement.

I just didn't find that to be true. I was in and out of stores testing seats quite a lot. I found that most of them were too fat at the bottom to sit properly in the back of my cabriolet. Perhaps you have a coupe, Paul? That may be the difference. CP

Paul does have a coupe, but I thought that the bottoms of the coupe and the cab were the same: the seatbacks are different. CP, I have had the same experience you have had. Many boosters and seats simply do not fit. As I mentioned earlier, removing the seat bottom helps immensely.

Yes I have a coupe. And my post does say that I was only referring to the Boosters. Of course I am only saying the really thin minimalistic ones like the Graco and Fisher Price that look like clones of the Britax. Not one of those starship models with built in speakers, gameboy dock, MP3 player port and swing out LCD screen. LOL

And I do carry the little uns daily in the back of my coupe.

I'm in the same boat.....oldest sons are 6 and 4.....I have tried a load of seats like the turbo, etc that we already have, and they are too wide at the bottom to fit. I have researched the Star Riser by britax...but they are indeed discontinued. I waited 1/2 hour to speak with a britax rep. on the phone......the Parkway is it's replacement....but it's a bit wider. No stores sell it around here so I can't tell if it will fit well....but looks like someone here is utilizing them just fine, so that's positive. Fisher Price I think is coming out with a seat in conjunction with Britax that has the same dimensions as the star riser. I'm looking into that as well.....I think Target will carry it. Here's a link on how to take out the seat cushions...which will them much more room in the back. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/286602-trying-to-install-baby-seat-in-my-02-c4s-need-help.html J

I promise you that the Parkway fits perfectly well. The picture I posted earlier in this thread shows two Parkways in the backseat of my Targa.

Easy there TD. I too am an engineer. Re. Seatbelts going across the right part of a kid, and "no childseat or booster seat". Read my post again. The smallest kid is in a childseat. The other two are in booster seats. I agree that the seat belt needs to be properly positioned. Re. Freakonomics. The authors are economists, not engineers. Their bailiwick is statistical analysis, not physics. In the chapter on kid safety, they looked at test data and accident data. It was arguably the first non-biased look at car seats and airbags, and child injury data. I would diplomatically suggest that criticism be withheld until the book has been read. Look more closely at what I wrote. I said that no data suggested that car seats were more safe then seatbelts. That is not the same as asserting that car seats are as safe as seatbelts. An absence of data can't prove anything. The problem with car seat studies (and airbag studies) is that they compare car seats to kids & infants that were "unsecured", as opposed to comparing car seats to kids that were secured (in one of various ways) by seatbelts. The outcome of these studies has been, unsurprisingly, that car seats are significantly better. But what about car seats vs. a kid in the back seat wearing only a lap belt? What about car seats vs. a kid in the back seat wearing a shoulder belt that has a device that holds it properly across his chest? These studies have not been done. But the economists were able to analyze what accident data was available, and they found that the data did not support a conclusion that car seats were safer then seat belts. But that is not the same as a study designed to compare two specific scenarios. Therefore my assertion, that there is no data that says that car seats are safer then seat belts, is reasonable. Re. "seatbelts or no seatbelts". That confused me. I'm not advocating a lack of restraint, nor an absence of booster seat.

It seems logical that the ONLY reason a booster seat is needed is to ensure that the shoulder restraint rests properly on the occupant. There does not seem to be any safety mechanisms on a booster seat. It is what it is....a BOOSTER seat to boost the height of the occupant so the belt rests properly. Of course this can be accomplished mainly by the belt loop on the side of the seat. When they are older, the the booster isn't needed as the natural height will fit the kids properly without the need for assistance......right??? J

No need to tell me to take it easy. I aimed my comments at Freakonomic, not you. But the lack of data does not suggest that your assertion, even if true, is relevant in any way with respect to whether you use a booster and/or car seat. You can place a kid in the back seat, strap the seatbelt around them, and see that it is not properly positioned. Specifically, visual inspection easily verifies that, at least with smaller children, seatbelts alone will never be as safe as seatbelts with a properly sized and installed booster and/or childseat. Moreover, unless it can be shown that a booster or childseat could increase the danger to the child (might be possible, but I don't see it), you literally have NOTHING to lose by using a booster or car seat. My comments regarding seatbelt vs. no seatbelt were based on the following logic: booster or childseat is part of the seatbelt mechanism. It is an adaptor designed to ensure that the seatbelt is properly placed across the child. It is not really a separate system at all and, (and I feel very confident in this assertion) you have no business using mere seatbelts with a child who is too young. So, the only real choice should be between properly used seatbelts (which means using a booster and/or childseat) or no seatbelt at all. The other choice: seatbelt alone or seatbelt plus booster and/or childseat is not really a separate choice at all.

Parkway did not work for me; YRMV. Got my discontinued Starrisers off ebay. They're paisley blue and pink; hideous but effective.

Because you have a cab I am sure . . .

hmmmm....rear seats are more narrow in a cab.....I have a C4S....does that effect the rear room as well with the AWD system?? J

Others can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the seat width is the same. I also believe that the seat bottoms are identical. The difference is that the seat backs in a cab tilt slightly forward.

No, I'm pretty sure this particular paisley would be hideous in any car.

No seriously though, the Parkway didn't work because your seatbacks tilt forward? If not for that, I don't know why it would work fine in mine and not yours. Did you remove the seat bottoms?

Thanks all! Very much appreciate the great info! I have my eye on a silver 2003 C2 Coupe that is for sale at the local dealer for $49,900. If I can get them to $47 I may have a deal. Now to convince the wife........

Sounds like what happened to me. When we only had one child, I owned a Boxster S, and my wife had a Toyota Sienna. When my wife found out that she was pregnant with twins, she told me that "the Porsche must go." I tried to resist, pointing out that she has the Sienna, but she, correctly, noted that if I were home alone with the twins and there was an emergency, I would not be able to take the twins to the hospital. So I sold the Boxster S. Two days later I drove home in the Targa, in which I had already placed two baby seats in the back. My wife flipped out when she saw me driving up in a 911. Then I pointed out the baby seats, and she started laughing. Now we affectionately refer to it as "the family car." Now she likes it, and we are both happy to go out on our "date nights" in the 911 rather than the minivan. My car is always waiting in front of the restaurant when we are ready to leave. Somehow I do not think that would be the case in the minivan . . .

I use these seats as well (one of them) for my 3 year old boy - it is excellent

While the Britax Starriser is discontinued are you certain that it is unavailable? A quick google search showed them being sold on Amazon.

Some interesting info, there have been an array of public service announcements reminding people that based on government tests stating that until 4 feet tall and 100 pounds children should be in booster seats for adequate protection. That being said, I too have a 4 year old and she currently rolls in a Britax car seat, I need to change to a booster soon. Im not very confident in the base fitment of the seat.

Take out the seat bottom and use a towel if necessary.

Good tip, but I tried, I think mine seat is just very wide on the base. Has anyone ever used the Britex Romer Porsche carseat with the porsche fabric/logo etc...

No, I did not think to remove the cushion and never would have thought about it except for this thread. I had a pair of Parkways in my wife's car and I tried them in the cab, but it didn't work. My memory is that it didn't work because of the bottom, but now that I'm thinking about it, it's possible they didn't work because of the seatback, as you suggest. I mostly recall being pissed off about needing to buy two more seats on top of the six or eight we'd gone through over the years. CP

TD, We may be beating a dead horse here. Or at least I may be. I think that there's more agreement between us then is obvious at first glance. I think that we're just interpreting some amibiguity differently, and therefore in conflict. Which reminds me of marriage. Re. relevance of my assertion. It was not my intent to make any concrete suggestion about if and when to use a kid seat or a booster seat. The point that I intended to make was more along the lines of 1) From the standpoint of human nature, isn't it interesting how "What is Right" can change one decade to the next? And 2) The popular conception that child seats are obviously safer, may based on surprisingly weak data. What does that tell us about how popular conceptions are formed? I wasn't trying to say "don't use a childseat", etc. Re. seatbelt vs. no seatbelt. If I understand your point correctly you are defining a properly used seatbelt as including a childseat or booster. Therefore seatbelt vs. no seatbelt becomes childseat/booster or no seatbelt. But I think that what we are really talking about is "childseat/booster, or any other system that properly positions the seatbelt". And there are other systems. But this issue kinda just boils down to semantics. I think that we agree, we're just using different words. Re. the Freakonomics data. Sometimes when we analyze the data, our preconceptions take some hits. That's what the whole book is about. Obviously there is a limit to how much you can prove with general data. That is to say data sets that weren't specifically structured to analyze a specific question. I was surprised to find that ALL of the studies that showed the efficacy of child seats compared them to a complete lack of restraint. Perceptions of safety are far more complex then safety statistics. It's very human to get wrapped up in a safety issue all out of proportion to it's stastical likelihood. Our challenge is to resist that. Re. you've nothing to lose by using a childseat. That's backwards. We make choices about cost/benefit of actions and items every hour. Is the cost/benefit of a childseat superior to all of the other options? I don't know. I do know that I want to do something because it makes the most sense. There's a lot of ways to do a decent job of securing a kid in a back seat. Each has plus's and minuses. Each parent should chose their own road. But they should make choices armed with good info, not misunderstandings fed by by car seat manufacturers, do-gooders and the nanny-state. The fact that the government tells me that I must use a car seat doesn't strike much a chord with me. Speaking as a fanatical Libertarian, we're supposed to be telling the government what to do, not them us. Another approach has occured to me. There is no "clash" here. I am saying that the data supporting childseats being safer might be weak. If you said "no, the data is strong", then we could argue. You are saying, if I understand correctly, "seatbelts have to be properly positioned. A critical component of that is boosters and childseats". If I said "seatbelts don't have to be properly positioned, then we could argue. But since neither of the above are true, we don't have enough conflict to stoke a good arguement. We, therefore, have no alternative but to link up and drink beer. Except that we live too far apart. Luck to you TD. <g>

Yes, I never viewed us personally as being in that much conflict, which is why I said no need to tell me to take it easy. This is exactly my point. I am unaware of anything else that is readily available to the public apart from car/booster seats to help enure that seatbelts are properly positioned in publicly available cars. I wasn't referring to laws or anything else. I am strongly biased. Last year, I put a race car into a wall at 87 mph. I had paid attention to all of the safety equipment, and I walked away without a single bruise or sore spot. Yesterday, I was almost hit by a driver running a red light at 40 mph. The impact spot would have been right where my daughter usually sits. So, this is a topic that has been very much on my mind. Peace, and I always enjoy sharing a beer, or scotch, or wine, or cigars, or all of the above.

Dang, TD. Having a kid make a close brush with death or serious injury would certainly make one lay awake at night. I'm sure I have plenty of that in my future. Unless they suddenly take a keen interest in interior decorating, I fear that I'm raising 3 infantrymen. But at least I don't have to worry about who they date. Well, unless they take up interior decorating as a lifestyle, I suppose. But one worry at a time. No more walls TD. Does this qualify as a thread hijack? Off to CMP. Luck to all.

Here's also more locations for scientific and medical information if you are so inclined to research. It won't be based on "infant" vs. "toddler". Rather, for the most part, age, height, weight, ability to hold the head up etc. Regards, Marc Here�s the Children�s Hospital of Philadelphia (CHOP) a website that has a lot of information about child safety with regard to seats and travel in vehicles etc. Might as well go read some of the scientific and medical resources and what their recommendations are. The longer you can keep your child in the recommended location and restraint system you have the safer they will be. http://www.chop.edu/consumer/jsp/div...c.jsp?id=77971 Education resources: http://www.chop.edu/consumer/jsp/div...c.jsp?id=83350 Click on library of educational materials which will take you to here: http://stokes.chop.edu/programs/inju...onal_advocacy/ Partners for child passenger safety reports: http://stokes.chop.edu/programs/inju...onal_advocacy/ Charts and images: http://stokes.chop.edu/programs/inju...rts_images.php etc,

You have a great wife . I liked this story especially the part where you wrote "..Then I pointed out the baby seats, and she started laughing". That's great

Thanks! I completely agree that I am a card carrying member of the undeserving husband club. I hope that most of you guys are too (which means, in my book, that you win).

Thanks to lapistola for starting this thread and to the rest of you for the great info/discussion. I subscribed to this thread with the thought of having to look for a car seat someday. So I figured, why not keep this handy. Don't know about the good husband part (I hope I am at least) but I do know there are some great dads here that's for sure. Everyone is writing about what the BEST car seat is, that to me shows you are all good parents My parents on the other hand just threw me in the back of the pickup and hoped I was in there when they came to a stop Just kidding of course...

There is always a risk in anything we do, nothing is perfectly safe, not even a tank. That said, the fact that you would even question the safety for your child means that you are not a bad father (at least in this respect ). I have wanted a 911 in some form for over 20 years, and agonized over this same decision/dilemma. This is a purchase of passion, not necessity, so it makes it more difficult to justify, but honestly, I have no issues with putting the most precious part of my life in my car, at least no more than any other car. I am sure there are safer cars, and I am sure there are less safe cars, and I am sure it also depends on the situation, but I will say this, I had a 1986 944 turbo that got into a wreck when some moron (with no license or insurance) tried to make a left turn into my passenger door at 45 mph across 2 lanes of traffic. I was able to veer away from a direct hit, and what I learned was this: I would have not had the ability to avoid much of this hit in 95% of the other cars out there (braking, steering, and handling), and when I did get hit, I was able to maneuver around some pedestrians, and besides a shattered passenger window, you would never know from the inside of the car that it was hit. The outiside had damage from wheel to wheel, and the car was almost totaled. There is inherent risk in just about everything we do in life, the risk obviously increases when we don't take precautions, so we have to do our best to make sure we are as cautious as humanly possible in all the situations that life throws at us and especially our children. All things being equal, I do tend to drive, let's say, much less spirited, when my baby is in the car. There is quite a bit of information on this topic, a search will give you plenty to digest. I recently added a child seat to my 996 cab and am very happy with the results - aesthetically and the idea of taking my 2yo for a ride. Below is a link to a previous pic of my installation and a few tips. Link to baby seat post

Thanks so much. I truly appreciate the great info and insights! I too have had some unfortunate collision experience in Porsches. The worst was in a 2001 996 C2 Coupe when a person from another country (who later denied payment or insurance, thus leaving me with the bill) turned left in front of me at an intersection (speed limit 60). I was probably doing 55 and attempted to avoid her, but we nailed each other at a semi-head-on angle. I then spun around and hit her car again on the other side, then bounced off a curb and two other cars. The repair bill was $18,000 and included frame damage, a replaced door, bumper, hood, and a few quarter panels, etc. I didn't have a scratch on me though! Not even a bruise. Ever since then I've had a lot of respect for Porsche crash safety!

Quotes source post: 4358231

I don't even have kids, but I gotta say those seats are pretty darn cool.

Britax car seats in the cab... works like a charm!

I bought a britax roundebout and took the bottom part off....now it fits in the 996....but there isn't much space for her feet....maybe I got an extra short version of the 996 cab.. (for Tim..it think because of the Tip my Porsche has less space between back of front seat and backseat!!LOL) I did something better for safety..I bought a HUGE escalade and this thing has airbags all around...drives, handles and it thirsty like a tank.....but I feel okay( just okay) when my wife takes the kids out shopping.