HRE wheels getting banned

Just thought some would find this interesting. According to the post on Audiworld they are going to be banned at PCA events! http://forums.audiworld.com/lrqc/msgs/41036.phtml

interesting... Is it being banned at certain PCA events or is this nationwide? (I don't know how you read that forum, it's hurting my eyes looking at how the threads are layed out!)

Same problems with Kenisis (spelling?). There were 4 rims that failed at the DE event this past weekend! Here's a picture.

^ i was under the impression that kinesis rims were good quality and often used in racing. perhaps this is an issolated incident? did all 4 rims fail on the same car?

Nope....different cars.

WTF I've never seen that happen to a rim before

Me neither. I was shocked. Not to mention I was PISSSED that I lost 2 hours of my track day while they figured how to get that car off the track! Not handled well. They could have easily had that taken care of in 15 mintues. Go out there, jack up the car, remove the leftover piece, put on another wheel, drive back to the paddock, check track for debris, resume racing! Oh yeah....that's what they ended up doing and talking with the owner about God knows what for some time. ARRGGGGHHHH!!!!!

i hear ya.. that's annoying

best evidence yet that we should stick w/ what porsche uses for it's cup cars -- bbs. hre and kinesis are expensive too boot.

Totally concur! I will only use factory (usually BBS) or BBS wheels on the track.

You can use whatever wheels you want on the track and likely be safe, but if you don't check them regularly, you deserve the failure that is bound to happen. Nothing that is exposed to constant fatique will last forever. Common sense rules. __________________ Brian Bailey Autometrics Motorsports Porsche 996 - Grand-Am Cup #45 '87 Porsche 944 Turbo - PCA GT3s

BB.....Fyi, those wheels were just a few months old.

I�m stressed out now�I just put Kinesis K19�s on my 997 (for the track)

I've wondered about this for a long time. I used to be that you had street wheels that were strong but fairly heavy and you had track wheels that were light but had to be maintained on a regular basis. Now you have all these super lightweight street wheels. I don't know how you make a 19 lbs street wheel that can handle the stresses of potholes and high g-force track use. I don't care if it's HRE, Kinesis or someone else. If I were buying track wheels I would only buy BBS or Jongebloed but Brian is dead on. Track wheels of any kind need to be checked on a very regular basis. Jim

Jim....do you think that there may have been hairline cracks, etc., that the driver could have seen B4 going out on the track?

I have heard that Kinesis can easily crack at the track do to the stress and here is a post to prove it. If I track, I would only consider using Fikse, BBS or Porsche wheels. HRE's and Kinesis are strictly for the street, IMHO.

But what if you push hard on the street at times, for instance, in the mtns!!!!!!!!!!!!

What about Forgeline wheels? I considered them when I was planning to turn my M3 into a club racer and while they are not as well known as HRE or Kinesis, their wheels seem to be involved in various levels of amateur and professional motorsports.

One of my Profil 10's had some hairline cracking on the inside of the wheel... a disaster waiting to happen. The forged center was perfecto. Fikse to their credit, fully repaired the rim at no charge. They said they had a "bad batch of aluminum" come through. I know stories of hairline cracks in stressed Fikses, but no catastophes like the Kinesis pictured. As BBailey said, inspection is the best key to prevention. That's truly disturbing about that Kinesis center, especially in what is supposed to be a strong, thick spoke design. I hope nobody was injured. A few shots of the Fikse damage...

Good question, I guess you can be our guinea for this one. I guess Fikse and factory Porsche wheels are not immune either then. That would only leave BBS left for the track, unless someone has cracked them too.

On my former 993 I found a similar hairline crack, as pictured above, on the inside edge of one the rear 18" factory turbo twist wheels that came on the car from Porsche when I was preparing to go for my first DE. Regular inspection of wheels is very important. This is becoming even more important as wheels get even bigger and utilize even stiffer and short side wall tires.

Dell, Sometimes you can see cracks but part of the maintenance for racing wheels is to have them x-rayed from time to time. For the track, I like Jongbloeds first and BBS second. I like Jongbloeds because they are great wheels and have great customer service. Try and get someone from BBS racing on the phone. Call Jongebloed and you're likely to talk to a part owner. Having said that, as I mentioned before, BBS, Jongbloeds and other light racing wheels require regular inspection and maintenance like retorquing wheel bolts, etc. I don't think everyone should panic about their wheels but I do think you need to wonder what was given up to make a street wheel so light. Just my 2 cents. Jim

That was my wheel and my car. I'm glad you posted the picture. I have it on my camera phone and have no idea how to download it here. I was shocked. I am counting my blessings that it happened on the slowest part of Spring Mtn. I was wearing a HANS device and had no problems. To their credit, Peter Stacy of Kenesis and John Brown of Wheel Enchancement flew out on Monday to review the tire and my damaged car. Luckily, no one had to visit my wife to explain why I died or was crippled. We do not know 100% why it failed. We can guess that it might be related to the process of powdercoating the heating of the wheel when the powder coat was stripped off due to a previous problem with the Kenesis powder coat. I will post more information once we know facts. BTW, this wheel WAS inspected by one of the best Porsche mechanics in the world and myself prior to the event. There were no obvious signs of impending failure. The wheels had only been used for four D/E's previously. No time trials, no races etc. I'm lucky it failed on the track and not in some canyon. I had two friends have recent bolt issues with their Kenesis wheels, so I was on the lookout. The bolts were fine in this model, so the evidence leads to the powder coating process. Peter Stacy indicated to me he has never had this kind of failure on his wheels, even under racing conditions. To LV Dell, if I had "gone off" under driver error I would understand your feelings, but this was a serious wheel failure that resulted to a lot of damage to my car. We were going to try adding a different wheel, but the other wheel had large cracks in it and seemed ready to fail as well. This would of delayed the event further. Did you want to drive it in that condition? So, the call was made for a flat bed -the only solution. The car was flat bedding as soon as possible using my tow hook, and one hour of the delay was lunch-no track time lost. You lost maybe one run group only. I hope you never have to experience any kind of problem yourself. I guess you'd have been pissed if you were at the track in Fontana last week and missed track time? This was a serious wheel failure and could have been fatal under different circumstances. Get your priorites straight and know all the facts before you accuse the track organizers of slow reaction. They did all they could under the circumstances to get the track open quickly and so did I.

I am glad that you are ok, and I would hope that, depending upon the findings of the investigation, that someone would help you fix your car ($$$$$). Awhile back, I posted that the tracks rats had been telling me not to powdercoat wheels. This may not be the cause of your failure, but I know that I trust track rats more than salesmen when it comes to things like this and I will not use a powdercoated wheel. (now, watch someone tell me that the finish on my Diamond Black BBS RS-GTs is powder coating Doh)

dell, would love to tag along with you one of these days.. let me know the next time you go out..

Vegas, Don't be too hard on Dell. I've both caused and experienced delays on the track. They look very different from the two perspectives. The comment about Ben's tragedy was pretty uncalled for. I'm glad you're ok. I had a wheel fail a couple of years ago as I turned under the Billy Mitchel Bridge at Road America. It can be pretty scary and mine wasn't as bad as yours. Jim

Thanks, I appreciate it. I would say that is wise advice in light of what happened. Up to this point in time, Mr. Stacy and Mr. Brown have been very considerate and have acted and met my preliminary expectations.

I did not mention Ben specifically, but it was indeed called for and I wanted to provoke deep thought. Where are people's priorites. I thought as a track community and especially as Rennlisters we had an affinity. LV Dell had NO concern for me, and my well being only his Goddamn one run group of track time. Selfish. Sorry, but I'm calling a spade a spade on this one. If you don't agree, that is your right.

Totally different situation. As for your situation, I was just echoing the sentiments of everything I heard in the paddock (and my feelings as well). It was frustrating and poorly cleaned-up. Not accusing you b/c that is unfair since I wasn't in your shoes. I feel horrible for you and wouldn't wish that experience on anybody. Honestly, I immediately thought what if it was me. I felt bad. But........I am blaming the track and crew for taking so frickin long. We got started 30 mintues late in the morning and then lost 3 sessions before lunch b/c of this. Not fair to anybody! PM me and we can discuss it offline. Also, I can get you the pics so you have a better res photo for your records since you said the pics you had were on a cell.

You must have posted while I was just typing up my last post. To address this accusation...I did have concern for you. Ask anybody in the paddock that I talked with about how concerned I was and hoped nothing bad happened to the driver. I felt horrible and hoped the situation wsa nothing more than car damage and no driver injury. Please don't take my comments out of context. All I was doing was venting my frustration for "cleaning" up the situation which was poorly executed.

From what I have heard, track wheels should not be powdercoated as they can hide hairline cracks. Track wheels should be anodized. We have used Kinesis wheels on two of our track cars (one ran profesionaly) and we have never had a failure.

and BBS have never failed in a similar manner ? I highly doubt that. It comes down to inspecting the wheels before every track event...imo

My Porsche tech (the famous two-time LeMans winner) stated that he has seen many, many BBS wheels break under race conditions similar to mine. Peter Stacy of Kinesis stated that he never had this type of failure before, even in race cars. BTW, Rockitman, it was your car and your Kinesis wheels that I liked the look so much I got my own.

Dell, As co-organizer of the Lapping Days events, I was quite surprised to see your completely inaccurate, emotional tirade against my handling of a very serious incident at the track this past Saturday. First, we did not lose "... 2 hours...", we lost exactly 20 minutes. We shut down the track, and Jeff re-scheduled lunch. In case you did not notice, we went hot after lunch 45 minutes earlier than originally scheduled. Second, we did NOT put on a wheel and drive the car into the paddock. We DID put on MY wheel in order to get the car onto the tow truck bed. Phil's car could not be driven another 10 feet, much less to the paddock. Third, in your later post, you state we lost three sessions before lunch due to poor organization and a late start. This could not be further from the truth. Drivers were late arriving to the track, and late coming to the drivers meeting. We lost 15 minutes early in the morning, but made it up in the first three warm-up sessions before 10:00 AM. In the end, Lapping Days has a run group format which changes to "open-track" in the afternoon. I have yet to meet a driver who uses the full 4+ hours of track time. Why you feel the need to come after the organizers and completely mis-represent the facts in a public forum is beyond me. In the future, if you have issues, please come to me or Jeff directly. Bob Read [email removed]

Hey Bread. It me up on IM emailm3

in case you didn't follow the link, this was part of that post: "Interesting tid-bit. Talking to IMSA and Viper Racing League sterwards. found HRE's are banned ...in both series due to too many failures. NINE, yes NINE failures in one race weekend Vipers.Apparently the PCA is on their way to banning HRE's as well. The racers have always called them "Fools Fashion" and i thought that was a little rough until I started seeing them fail at track events and how easily they bend and corrode. Then, after Leslie had problems with hers corroding and I spoke with one of the owners, I realized quickly they were WAY out of reality as to strength and design. Wasn't really surprised that they were banned (was at the meeting), but was surprised at ALL the problems reported. Unreal for such an expensive wheel. Apparently tolerances are sooooo poor that the tires often rotate on the wheels themselves as the rims are often slightly too small. Mike S" i can accept that wheels will fail, but nine at one event!! i would also be curious as to what sort of qc and ongoing testing goes on at the smaller mfrs compared to the majors like bbs, o.z., speedline, et al.

not very good news since i ordered a set of hre competitions 3 weeks ago. as far as dells comments, i have to back up bob and phil. we lost very minimal track time as lunch was moved up an hour. also we tried to rectify the problem as quick as we could while maintaining the safety of everyone there and without subjecting phils car to anymore damage. i think if anyone were in the same situation they would not want to have anymore damage to their car either. i understand people want to get as much track time as possible, but at the end of the day i think we had more than enough track time. just my 2 cents

Bob, only 2 things I will say and then call it a day. 1. It is EXTREMELY innapropriate to come on to this board and single me out when I never singled you out. I just referred to an event that I was at (no names, etc.). I never referred to you nor your organization. This is something that you can contact me individually and we could discuss it offline (as Phillip and I have already done in a very informative and polite manner). This board is not the place for that. 2. Your facts of the event and mine differ greatly and I am sure (as most would agree) the truth then lies somewhere in the middle. The attendee's and the organizers are going to see the situation from 2 different angles. And DO NOT blow the situation out of context. The unfortunate event that Phillip experienced COULD have been serious and thank God he was ok. I would not classify 100% car damage and 0% driver injury as serious as you did. Potential to be serious? Yes. Was it? No. And by the way, you DID put a wheel on it to get it onto the flatbed and move it (now you are just playing a game of semantics). Regardless, the situation took longer than it should. When you start 30 minutes late and break for lunch b/c of and accident that eats up 3 sessions of 1.5 hours that equals 2 hours (regarless if you went hot early in the lunch hour)! I never said I lost 2 hours of track time but rather 2 hours of my track day (we were out of the cars for 2 hours). Not being in the car for that period of time (for us in the white group that was from about 11a through after 1p) put a real cramp on the day and just ruined the flow. Put a sour taste in a lot of drivers mouths--but you didn't even address it with the attendee's. I just echoed the sentiment I felt and those of the drivers around me. We can just agree to disagree. I am surprised though of your lack of professionalism and your lack of etiquette to come on to a board that you have never visited nor support to post and feel the need to explain something that you were never singled out for. But if you want some advice then I would be happy to offer it: *Do NOT start an event late b/c drivers get there late. You have now penalized those that arrived on time. For crying out loud, you itinerary says arrive promptly with exclamation points. *If you publish a schedule, stick to it. Especially when you are charging a fee for a service, you are obligated to provide it and change only at consent of both parties. Did I have a great time? Yes. Did I feel jipped out of time? No. But I did feel--as I have stated--that the situation was not taken care of well and that put a damper on the flow. This had nothing to do with lost track time it had to do with lost track day, this had to do with the manner and speed with which is was taken care of. The best analogy I can give is one those of you that play golf will understand: your stalled in your round sitting on a tee box about half way through the back nine b/c some idiot feels the need to search for a ball for 15 minutes, finally takes a drop, then take 10 practice swings to just skull it 20 yards again while you sit there watching the whole thing as your start to tighten up. Put yourself in the drivers shoes and you will understand.

These wheel failures are very upsetting, I expected a lot more of Kinesis and Fikse. I am sure ANY wheel can and has failed, but I'll stick with OEM or BBS.

Word

how about speedlines? i used to see them on DTM cars, i think. i haven't heard of anything bad about my champion monolites by speedline.

good that everyone is OK

Just Great (sarcastically)......I just ordered HRE 841R's, and they're VERY expensive.....I've made a 1k deposit......I don't intend to track, but I do intend to drive in a "spirited" manner.......should I cancel?

This, or these failures are not a result of powdercoating, well not directly. Powdercoat cures at ~375-400F, which should not affect properties or heat treat of aluminum. I will say indirectly it may play a role since powdercoating will hide fractures/inclusions, preventing necessary inspection.

Anyone hear of any problems with HRE's on the street? I was seriously considering buying a set.

This is exactly the reasoning I heard . . .

I would pass.

I just went to the HRE website and no where does it say their wheels are designed for track use. They use "vintage sports cars", "track inspired" and "design found on the race circuit". Does HRE make any track use claims anywhere? Just curious. I have a set of HRE wheels which I have never had any problems with on the street. However, I will not be taking them to the track.

speedlines are italian. champions are re-branded by a mfr in japan.

I've been told by racing friends in GA and ALMS that their very nice and expensive BBS racing wheels break, and have been warned that any wheel can and will break at some point in its service life, given sufficient forces and stress. As for OE wheels, I don't recall where, but didn't someone post pics from Spring Mtn on here in the recent past (like maybe last year) recounting and depicting their experience breaking an OE Porsche wheel?...Point is, I've never had the understanding that ANY wheel will not break, but quite the contrary, that EVERY wheel can break (just like any other stressed element of a vehicle) and in track driving conditions at some point it's a certainty. That in mind, I would never buy a used track wheel and expect it to last long, and likewise, if/when I track my car, I expect to go through equipment failures and replacements over time, wheels included. Wheels and suspension members especially are under tremendous stress and endure heavy impact forces continually. As for slamming a custom wheel brand by old coots at the track or in the enthusiast community, you and I both know that people are quick to start or join a "sewing circle" without really knowing the facts about what truly happened, or taking the time to get the details before drawing a conclusion. Makes for very entertaining conversation, but it's a waste of time. My $.01... (I can't offer $.02, saving for mod's) (Btw, I know not all track stewards are old coots, some are young coots. I prefer the old, because they usually have more stories to tell, and less teeth; usually adds to the overall humor quotient. )

really, i thought the champions were made by speedline, hmmm. at least the champions are forged (per wheel enhancement's description)

I wouldn't bash Kinesis too badly yet. It seems like they are being very responsive trying to resolve the situation, they are obviously very concerned. Do you think the owners of BBS would fly to you the next day if a cup car wheel failed at an open track day? (Maybe they would, but I doubt it) The owner of the car is the one who has lost the most here and he appears to be satisfied with the way Kinesis is handling things thus far. Can we move the event organization bickering to another thread, some of us are interested in wheel failures.

I agree with everyone here who is saying that it is premature (a) to assume the cause for the failure; and (b) to blame any particular manufacturer for product defects or follow-up after a failure. However . . . I do think that there is a tremendous difference between (a) the stresses put on wheels during racing and (b) the stresses put on wheels during "normal" street driving and DEs PROVIDED that there has been no known impact with a road hazzard (i.e., deep pothole, OTE, wreck, etc . . . ). With respect to a wheel purchased for street and DE use, I expect it to have a significant enough safety margin built in that I should have to inspect the wheel only after some sort of impact or once in a while over a very, very long interval (i.e., years). By contrast, although I also expect a racing wheel to be overengineered, I can imagine the need visually to inspect the wheels before every event and x-ray the wheels once a season. It horrifies me to see a wheel fail during a DE (and yes, I know that I do not know all of the details).

Race wheels (as opposed to DOT approved wheels) are lighter and less durable. The higher magnesium content makes them more brittle and they don't resist potholes (or equivalent) and corrosion very well. That's why they aren't DOT approved. Race teams carefully inspect wheels and periodically magnaflux them looking for cracks that are not normally visible, especially after the wheel is subjected to unusual stress. I would expect DOT approved wheels to be more durable. Looking back, I think they are. I started and just closed a similar thread over on GT2/3 linking to the audi site because it seems that the information about the HRE wheels is suspect. Vegas' problem could be a highly isolated failure - one of those one in a million deals. Let's see what the analysis shows before getting too excited. There are a lot of racers using DOT approved lightweight wheels and if there was a pattern of failure I am pretty sure we'd have read about it on the Racing DE forum. Metal can do funny things, I once dropped a marine grade $tainle$$ steel bolt and had it crack in half. Considering it was brand new and cost about $20 I wasn't pleased. OTOH I was pleased it broke from a 3 foot fall because it would have been holding up a 60 foot tall mast on a sail-boat otherwise! best,

C4S surgeon, Speedline has gone out of business. I am told that their contracts for OEM wheels have been picked up by OZ, Fondmetal and BBS. Speedline was an OEM supplier to Porsche for some time.

Some years back I saw a news piece on counterfeit bolts. I think it was around the time that DC-10 engine fell off over Chicago. Basically, they take ungraded metal and make the bolts, mark 'em grade 8 or whatever, and sell them to unscrupulous suppliers. At the time, this was rife in the aircraft industry.

Very scary!

Spend the bucks to race safely. Get titanium wheels like on the Audi/Infineon R8.

I have learned tons about wheels in this thread. I am glad everyone is safe from this accident. BTW, this issue is spreading like wildfire on the net.

Bob Rouleau: After reading your thread, regarding the legitimacy of these claims, I also did a little sniffing around and didn't find much. I also emailed a few folks at VRL (Viper Racing League), the apparent source of the multiple failures. I will let you know if I hear anything. In the mean time, there is absolutely nothing about a ban on HRE wheels on the VRL web site. However, their "official" wheels sponsor is Forgeline, for what its worth. Sorry folks

Hey don't be sorry, it helps when someone actually addresses an issue in a measured and rational manner. Having personally spoken with the technical director of Viper Racing League, I can tell you that current requirements dictate that as long as wheels are the correct size and have an inspection and manufacturing date sticker for tech inspection approval, they're good to go. I applaud that measure, btw, it's an attempt to address safety in a professional manner, like with the harness dating (no flames please, but your life IS worth buying a new harness for to eliminate variables--if you disagree with me, why not take up Base Jumping and use an old chute? hahahaha...). Additionally, I asked if wheels had been broken and if so which brand, and the tech director said "Yes, they've all broken, every brand, it happens commonly in racing, and that's what the dating is for. No wheel can withstand racing forces, all will break at some point, and we're trying to keep everyone safe." Good job on that. Safety first, then race. FWIW, IMSA also doesn't ban any wheel brand in ALMS competition, it's really a matter of meeting size and weight specs for each class; brand is open to whatever, and that whatever is usually a factor of who wants to make a volume run of a particular wheel to sell to teams in particular classes. That's a business decision, rather than a manufacturing capability issue, as there are several capable wheel manufacturers. The only brand-specific racing scenario is the IMSA GT3 Cup, where BBS is the "spec" wheel under contract, and if you get caught running another wheel, they'll bust you on it and not let you run until you buy their product. I like how the audiworld guy posted that he "heard from the VRL and IMSA steward" that a wheel brand is banned, but the actual sanctioning body knows nothing of it. It's terrific to have so many "experts" out there. (I saw someone posted, asking him if HE "heard" this news, or if "someone" told him that "they" heard it from someone else...I don't think he's answering; no surprise...) Anyway, thanks for your report YETIS. Gossip sucks, nice to hear real info. Too bad there isn't some sort of filter for that, eh?

Yes, our Champions Monolites are rim-forged, one-piece wheels. Mine were made in Japan.

Mike S. is generally pretty reputable and a hardcore track junkie. If its the same guy I'm thinking of, he organizes trips to The Ring for Americans who want to taste it for real and has rubbed elbows with technical project developers from Porsche and Audi staying at that oh so famous little hotel. Just $.02 to prove that gossip sucks regardless of the credibility of the source.

Yetis - no need to apologise. Like you, I took the post from a known track junkie to be valid without question. After I went looking for confirmations and found none (like you) I became suspicious. When someone called HRE and discovered that there had been no reports of failures (let's face it, if nine had failed in one weekend, somebody would have called to complain!) I decided to close the thread. Rennlist has a reputation for outstandng technical info and it was pretty obvious that we were helping to spread bad info - harmful to a reputable manufacturer. In the end, this thread has been helpful. All of us who use lightweight wheels need to inspect them frequently. The lighter they are,the more likely they are to develop stress cracks. Everything has side effects, even lightness. Best,

1st - Super D, those HRE's look really good on your car. FWIW - This thread (& parallels on audi, etc) are the first I've ever heard of quality issues with HRE. Generally, in my experience, conversations about them run along the lines of aesthetics, high price and weight penalties of super strong vs heavy. Based on the HRE wheels we (my bf, me, friends) use and have used, the decision to go HRE was for their high street durability. They stand up well to the cobblestones that Charlotte calls 'paved'. But I'm very interested in hearing what Yetis is able to find out.

Gents and Ladies, The miracle (and problem) of the net (and cell phone cameras) is that when a wheel breaks in Pahrump , the ripple is felt around the world. Butterflies in Tibet, anyone? When there are repeated, factual and documented failures we need to discuss it. When there is a "one off", it should be researched carefully by the customer and manufacturer, before we all freak out. I have personally had wheel failures with multiple brands Sometimes a three part wheel, sometimes a nicely machined one piece wheel... What I object to is people posting inflammatory BS before they know the facts. (There were a few posts in the past days that really got under my skin... Perhaps I need better sunscreen :-) What we do on the track is very stressful, yet we demand extremely lightweight parts, at reasonable prices. I hate the fact that my GT3 weighs 3,040 lbs... would love to take 800 out of it... BUT, at what cost? Wheels (as in unsprung weight) are a great place to save weight... They are also a critical element keeping us on the track. Hmmm... While an open forum is good, let us all understand that there is a balance between posting a comment/question, and posting gossip that can ruin a company's reputation. GT3Bob PS... Kinesis is doing a fantastic job of researching the broken wheel issue, informing customers and shops, and working very hard to be sure this does not happen again. Ask me how I know....

Just thought I would get back to everyone with an update. I contacted VRL, the apparent source of these wheel failures, and this is what I heard tonight. "Chris, HRE wheels - yes we have had failures in the past and they have been banned BUT we now hear that they have come out with a competition wheel. If this is fact the whell will be allowed. They will also have to comply with our dating procedss as we required wheels be stamped or plated with date of manf. We have a two year rule for for all cars on race tires. " There you have it, Chris

On the bright side, it wasn't gossip and Mike S. is still reputable.

Jesus...dell what was the speed of the car that was wearing these rims? Where did the wheels fail...what kind of turn was the car into? I'm assuming it was a turn of some sort.

OK, I'll bite. How do you know? P.S. Not meant to be inflammatory, just curious . . .

Jim....not sure about the speed but it was the RR wheel on a tight left turn (if I am not mistaken). You would have to ask Phillip (vegasgolf) directly though for specifics. The other wheels that failed I have no idea and specifics since 2 of them were form one car that an instructor told me about when we were talking about the fialed rims and the other was from antother driver in the paddock area that ran the same type of rim. If i am not mistaken it happened b/t 4&5. It is a low speed high stress turn up hill slightly. (attached)

Not to jump in at such a late date but thought some info might help. Being a manufacturer of Aluminum & Magnesium Alloy parts I hope this might help. Powder coating will not do anything other than visually obscure or limit your ability to see or test for suface cracks. Unless the bond is not good and moisture works its way under the coating then this can speed up corrosion which can lead to premature failure. Penetrant inspection (Magnaflux or Zyglo as it used to be called) will only detect cracks if the process is properly controlled using the appropriate sensativity on a properly prepared surface. Many contributing factors can allow surface defects to go undetected. The surface must be free of soils, oils, grease, paint, coatings or chemical residues. If not properly prepared small cracks or discontinuities will go undetected because the pentrant cannot properly enter the discontinuity. Some forms of pre-pentrant cleaning that can be done are an acid etch, solvent cleaning including vapor degreasing and ultrasonic cleaning. I doubt that many people will go to this length to inspect their wheels. Especially since it requires the removal of all coatings and the reapplication of those coatings after inspection to prevent corrosion, especially on magnesium based alloys. From there I can go on how the processing may or may not be performed properly to detect such defects. Radiographic inspection has it's limits also. Although it can be very good at determining subsurface defects depending on the extent of a crack and the appropriate angle of the exposure the crack may also go undetected. Film radiography is expensive and most wheel manufactureres use a non film method. This is all fine depending on the acceptance criteria established. Small gas holes or other minute subsurface discontinuities can be considered acceptable but over time and proximity to the surface may cause a fracture point. This can also include included material which is both less or more dense than the alloy used. In many ways the best form of testing of something like a wheel may be ultrasonic testing but this has its limits also. The most critical point for any testing to be done is by the manufacturer prior to realease of the product. If there are no hidden defects then everything else is left to design, purity of the alloy used and special processing like heat treatment. I was disturbed by a comment someone posted saying a manufacturer claimed a "bad batch of aluminum made it through". What is that all about? Isn't the material tested at least on a sample lot basis and if so at what frequancy? Also what does bad mean? poor tensile strength improper alloying of the material, what? I would expect that at a min these companies would test for both hardness and ultimate tensile of the material not to mention chemical composition. Even if it is done by seperately manufactured coupons test bars etc. I for one would expect that they would test the center part by cutting test bars from the casting/forging or testing the entire part on a regular frequancy to determine that all processes are controlled to a minimum level which should far exceed the requirements of the product. What concerns me also with the pictures of the fractured wheel is the uniformity of the break. It would appear that the wheel failed all at once. This could mean a number of problems ranging from design, poor material or excessive heat cycling of the material but the later would mean that the wheel would have to reached some serious temperatures causing the material to loose its mechanical properties. It is also possible the wheel was just pushed byeond it's designed purpose. Many of these cars and new rubber compounds are putting stresses on vehicles that even ten years ago were unheard of. I have my opinions on what happened here, all i will say is that I would recommend having a subsized test bar machined form the center hub and see what kind of numbers you are getting and also it wouldn't be a bad idea to have it tested for chemical composition at the same time. If the wheel is properly designed and manufactured age should be less of an issue than track hours used. I hope this is of some help.

Any opinions on the strength value of pressure cast alloys vs. the wheels in question as used per Porsche OEM?

Here's an interesting thread regarding this wheel conversation: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/s...0&pagenumber=3