Sadly, the "myth" has struck...engine dead.

Hello, Thanks to everyone for keeping up with this forum! I have learned so much here, that I have had few un-answered questions by reading through the archives. This is a great resource that helped me though my purchase process and shot 10K miles of ownership. Sadly, the engine in my 1999 C4 has died at about 80K miles. More details to come, but there is oil and coolant coming our of my left tailpipe. There was a LOT of smoke. It happened at full throttle in third gear at about 5500RPM on track. I have am interested in thoughts comments about what I should do... 1) Shop Responsibility I started to get the RMS spots in my garage. I took it to a local shop which did the RMS and clutch work about 2 weeks ago. (I also had a H&R, rear-sway installed at the same time). For the work order, I did request that the shop replace the IMS seal during the process; which was not completed based on the shop's analysis that is was "OK." I do not recall the link, but I remember reading in this forum that replacing the IMS while working on the RMS is in a Porsche service bulletin. If this is an IMS-related failure, could it have been prevented by replacing the seal or could it have been diagnosed as "an issue" during that process? BTW - Upon initial glance, the RMS area is still clean, thus it does not look like the RMS was related - directly the work that was recently done (i.e. - no obvious signs) 2) What next? Regardless of the "cause," this will be a costly fix. If the shop is not at fault, I will have a big decision to make. These days, 996 prices have fallen to the low- $20K range. Although I do not have a quote, I have read that a new engine could be in the $10k range. Thus, I will either have to fix it or sell it for parts - which makes more sense? Peace, Douglas

Reman engine from Porsche is now $14,000+ for a 3.4. And that is just for the engne, add labor and you are looking at north of $16,000. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news and sorry to hear about your failed engine. I just fixed mine that had an intermix, but nothing as serious as oil and coolant out the exhaust.

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RMS didnt cause your failure. Someone here is selling a 996 with an extra engine, maybe you could buy that if it is not dead.

Cory, I think he was asking if replacing the IMS seal could have prevented the melt down.

Dharn55, Wasn't your 1-3 (left) head cracked? I think It was very hard/impossible to find a good used 1-3 head. Maybe Steepsnow could do repair similar to yours? Need a tear down to find out what is kaput.

Yes it was my 1-3 head, and finding a good 1-3 was next to impossible. However I never had any smoke, or oil and coolant coming out of the exhaust, just an intermix. The crack never extended to the combustion chamber. Sounds like Steepsnow's problem must be more involved than mine was. Might be a cracked sleeve, or a bad head gasket. Has to be something that would let oil and coolant into the comsution chamber if he is getting smoke, oil and coolant out the exhaust. Only way to tell is to start tearing down the enigne. although you might see someihing with a scope.

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I highly doubt it, its just a seal. My 996 always marked it spot, all the seals leaked......hehe

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What?!?! You paid only $13k for a '99?!?! That is huge outlier if it is......I paid $10k for an '01 4Runner that is not near as cool as a 996......

Failure would not have been prevented by IMS seal/bolt upgrade. Suspect failure a cracked cylinder. My initial info was this was common in the 3.4l engines and almost invariably appeared in one of the center cylinders. However, Jake Raby says -- via posts here and elsewhere -- he's seen it in all M96 engines and in all cylinders. If you can swing it having dealer source engine from Porsche and have dealer install engine is imho best route in long run. More expensive in the short run though. Obtaining an engine from some other source and having it installed by an indy shop more risky in that either the replacement engine will be bad or go bad or the labor will be defective. The labor risk can be mitigated by using a reputable shop that of course word of mouth indicates does good work and stands behind its work. If this shop also selects the replacement engine that can work to mitigate the risk of the engine. Sincerely, Macster.

Oh, forgot to add: Very very unlikely RMS repair has anything to do with the problem. As I mentioned in earlier post cylinder wall failure which is unfortunately one of several too common failures these engines can experience. As for what to do: A runner car is always worth more than a non-runner and parting out a car is a pain. You are much better off if you can of course afford it to have engine replaced. Having dealer obtain engine from Porsche then installing engine best route. Most expensive short term but least risky and likely the cheapest long term. Also helps bolster car's resale value should you sell it down the road especially if you sell it with some remaining "new" engine warranty remaining. Sincerely, Macster.

joe (jr944) has a 99 motor for sale in the metro denver area. send him a PM. that may be your least expensive bet.

Tom, Thanks for the referral to the motor in Den. I'll send a PM. Budget is a big concern at this point. I won't have pricing from a shop until early next week.

[QUOTE=Tippy;6740636I paid $10k for an '01 4Runner that is not near as cool as a 996...... [/QUOTE] Yeah, but on the plus side your 4Runner doesn't come with an M96!

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I am not touching that with a 10-ft. pole......

Hi All, What about replacing the 3.4 with a 3.6? Any know how much difference there is in price? ....parts + labor? DF

It can be done. Fom what I understand the 3.6 is actually currently less expensive than the 3.4.

3.6 conversion has been done by a few on this board. Just do a search for 3.6 conversion. Rooks also has done them (in Atlanta I believe). Need to remap the ECU and control the Variocam. Depending on your car, may need to use your mechanical throttle body (if you have one). Again, just do a search by "3.6 conversion" on the 996 Board. I have looked into this a lot, out of general curiosity and preparedness. Please keep us up to date as you progress. thx

Thanks for the search "text" tip. DF

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You might check with Farnbacher Loles. It has had some late model Porsches with engine conversions (06 Cayman with 3.8L engine to name one) reviewed and seems to know its engine swap stuff. Sincerely, Macster.

This sounds like MOF #3: D Chunk failure.. Perform leak down and compression tests to diagnose the cylinder(s) that are giving the issues. This is one of the most common failures in the 3.4 engine.. We deal with it daily.

BTW - Does anyone have any idea what the "shell" might be worth without a motor (with a blown motor)? I would like to post it for sale to see if there is any interest, but have no idea where to start for setting a price. Parting it out seems like a lengthy, unpredictable and time consuming process. However, a dismantler or wholesaler - or someone looking to build a racecar or has a recently wrecked (but good motor) might see some value in the shell. I understand this is a much "smaller" market. However, it may turn out that I need to get a little $$ out of it now (rather than spend $$$ now) and restart 911 ownership again in a couple years. The "upfront" $$$ to fix and sell is not readily available. Sadly, another option I must consider may be to store it for a while until I have enough $$$ for a fix. Thanks again!

I think it depends on the condition of the interior, wheels, tires, etc. I think a good ballpark figure for a 99 with a dead engine is $7k.

I have Clients on a wait list for a car with a blown engine so they can buy it broken and then have me create them a custom engine package.. Email me if you want to sell it with the failed engine..

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I would love to put my motor/trans in a roller. But, I dont have the money to do it but it would be cool I think.

My condolences on your loss. I get bummed out when i hear of someone's dream car turning into a nightmare. A RMS leak is one thing but a new enginge? A $10-16,000 investment in THAT car is not a business descision but an emotional one. How many computers have you had to part with when it dumped on you for the last time or did you just drop a "new" 386 processor in there? Porsche screwed these things up and left us emptying the money bag. If this failure happened to the brake system instead of the engine for example, NHTSA would have at least forced them to correct their bad design, if they wouldn't do it on their own. But as it is, the cars just roll safely to a stop and await another dose of amerian cash. Germany learned a few thing from the American Big 3 and that was cash soothes the conscience. After 19 years of porsche onwership I am done touting the "great engineering" and attention to detail. I will not argue that it may be the icon of all sports cars, but considering the cost and the reliability issues that continue to haunt it, it does not deserve our dollars or our loyalty. Oh yeah, if the wife bitched when your porsche took her parking spot in the garage, wait till you park a dead one in there. Not fun!

Not to hijack the thread but I have a 2002 3.6 for sale with 40k miles -- trying to figure out what it's worth though! Does $7000 seem like a reasonable asking price? I don't know what goes into converting for drive by wire though.

Suncoast Porsche is having a sale on 3.6 997 engines right now... reman engines @ $6,100 !!! that's a great deal... don't know if that includes core charge... but if you bought one of these @ $6,100 and did the conversion/install on your 99 it would probably be another $5-$6K and you have a 997 3.6 in there... with a 2 year warranty!

That just can't be right.

Has anyone done a 997 3.6L conversion? ...a few threads say it cannot be done??? Also, another issue is whether the 997 3.6L "better" (more reliable) than the 996 3.6L??

well... contact suncoast for yourself and see... the sale is on boxster cayman engines.... and 3.6 early 997 engines.... but *not* the 3.4 for the 996...

Anything can be done with enough $$$$$

if I had a 99 engine that blew... at $6,100 I'd go the Suncoast way and pay for the conversion cost... out the door you'd pay no more than $12K installed... with a warranty....

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...almost as if Porsche is *punishing* the 996 devotee community with this 3.4L replacement engine pricing debacle. Obviously they monitor ALL Rennlist activity - but this is absurd. I'm still convinced that Porsche realized they made a serious design and engineering foh pah on the 996 powerplant and to help the owner community out with it would only serve to ingrain the fact that they 'acknowledge' the issue. That's a human-natural reaction. Especially considering that Porsche is going to be taken over by VW. And acknowledgement of a crap **s engine design at this point lessens their engineering overmatch with VW and weakens their already shaky bargaining position. Sad, sad indeed. But gents - thems the facts according to Mar - you heard it here first.

The problem with that argument is that the issues really aren't fixed with the 997 motor are they? I don't know what all of the specific differences are, and I'm curious what it really takes to put a 997 motor into a 3.6 996. The 3.4 non-egas etc...I think it's a lot further removed. BTW -- a friend told me today that the stealership wants $15k to replace the motor in his 2002 996. At that point, personally, I'd rather go standalone ECU and 997 motor. I know that will work! Will loose the ABS and PSM though.... Anyway, what a crappy market to sell anything! 15k for a new motor and I'm having trouble selling my 40k mile 3.6 for $6500! People should be jumping all over it but the bottom line is people aren't buying stuff now.

You should be able to install a 3.6 or 3.8 from a 997 into a 996 if you use the correct DME. There is an experienced DIYer who has done several conversions on Boxsters including a 3.8 into a Boxster. Google "tholyoak" and you will come up with several hits. He has done extensive write-ups on the issues you will face and covers the DME issues as well. IIRC he uses all factory parts and doesn't use piggyback systems. It's worth a look considering the price of a 3.6 Vs a 3.4. I think the IMS bearing was updated to a two row assembly in the MY '06 if that is a concern of yours.

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c70Pete, I wonder if Porsche will still warranty a motor if it's installed in model other than what it was originally specified for? It would be worth checking out first if the warranty is a driving factor in ones decision making process. Aron

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yes of course... when I asked Pfaff they told me they would need to plug into the engine to diagnose... so if you were doing a 3.6 conversion you would be using a 3.6 ECU and wiring harness... so it would essentially be a 3.6 car... the question is what do they plug into and if you did the conversion would it be seen by the diagnostic tool as a 3.6 car...

The other 3.6 conversions on the forum used the same 3.4 DME, but remapped. They used the old mechanical throttle body too (not Egas). And something for the VarioCam. But this was for a 996 3.6 conversion. It sounds like you are saying the 997 3.6's need the 997 DME. What about the eGas issue, etc? Either way, it sounds like the 996 engine issues are evolving/progressing. Maybe one day all us 996'ers will have 3.8's in 'em?!!!

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you'll need a new fuel sender unit... new e-gas pedals... new wiring harness... center console adapter (if you want A.C) 996 ECU (not 997 cause the ecu still has to control 996 components)

Hopefully, this is an easy question: What about swapping a 1999 3.4L C2 (drive by cable) into my "dead" 1999 C4 (egas)? Is that straightforward? ...same DME, harness? ...other remapping or connections? Thanks!

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I think that can be done... there is something that needs to be done with the e-gas connection... has to be removed... I'm not sure but I remember a mechanic saying that that engine would work... they would have to take your non-gas components from your dead 3.4 and transfer them to the new engine...

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I dont know a 100% but Id say just use the throttle body from the non-egas motor and put it on the new, egas motor.

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I have a strong-running 1999 3.4L reman with 3K miles on it that I will sell you for $23.5K It just happens to have a perfect C4Tip wrapped around it tho But you can take the engine and toss the 'car'...

I'm waiting for some guys to finally figure out how to install the new corvette LS9 engine in a 99 996. Then, I'll have the baddest car around. Watch out.

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Fuel Injection Specialties here in SA, TX can make the necessary mods to the ECU to do it. Renegade, Im sure could make a bellhousing adapter and input shaft or whatever else to hook up the driveline.

Sorry to hear about the loss of your motor Just swap the motor from this GTI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVPKIr_W6hs John

Sorry to hear your news, but join the crowd. Since Porsche and Volkswagon are nearly one company, I wonder if Volkswagon will start having massive engine failures.

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...only when they start designing an aircooled GTI...

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100% will work perfectly. Simply have them unbolt the cable throttle and replace with the e-gas throttle. No brainer and no touching of anything else, underneath the 3.4 is a 3.4. My 99 C2 car has a 2003 3.6 that was e-gas. Good luck, let us know which direction you take. This thread is really friggin hard to follow with all the OT nonsense.

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Anything can be done.. Using a 997 based motor in a 996/986 is not as straight forward. Your biggest hurdle is that the 997 went to a different way of supply the fuel rails which is not an easy swap in. I know there was a 996 owner that used a 997S 3.8X51 motor but I have never been able to hear about the results first hand. You likely hear of Cayman and 987 Boxster's doing 997 based upgrades because they share subsystems.

I have located a 3.4L engine that loooks good, "on paper." It is a used factory remanufactured engine with less than 10k miles. It was "new" in 2005, was in a car that was wrecked, then was pulled and has been sitting for about 18 months. The engine is not local (to me), so it would have to be shipped. First, I have been told by a shop that an engine that was used, then sat in a crate for that long could have problems. ...is this true/possible? Second, they said that an engine from a wrecked car might not have visible damage, but could still have problems. ...is this true/possible? Lastly, is a visible inspection enough to determine any problems from sitting and/or trauma from a wreck? Or, is there a way to test an engine before putting into the car?

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your shop is totally right... the engine isn't in the car... you can't even start it... so you don't know how it will run... if the car was hit in the rear.. forget it... if it was a hard hit in the front it could have pushed the tranny back into the motor... the shock could also have weakened the head which will result in early death ... I'd pass on it Suncoast is having an engine sale on the 997 3.6 reman engine for $6,100... for another $6K you can find all the necessary 3.6 parts (from a 02 996 - compatible electronics to make it work with 997 engine) like ECU, fuel pressure sender, center console sender, e-pedals etc... and have have a new and improved 3.6 in your car for a total of $12K... and you'll get 2 years warranty out of it... it s a helluvalot cheaper than a 3.4 @ $16K installed...

The 997 3.6L engine from Suncoast sounds great. However, I have not found a shop in the Denver Co. area that has done such a swap. I have talked to 6 shops (2 dealers, 2 P-car specialists, 2 german with P-certified techs). All have recommended against that route or simply will not do it. They have mentioned potential problems with electronics(HVAC, ABS, PSM), DME remapping/programming, Vario-Cam, clutch (which to use 997 or 996). Also, that there would be a lot of trial and error to get it tuned. ...does all of that sound right (or just lack of experience)? Is it possible to get all of that stuff "dialed?" Does anyone have experience with such a swap? ...know anyone with experience that could consult(paid) with a local shop for such a job? ...know anywhere I could ship the car with such experience? One guesstimate for labor was 50+ hours. Does that sound right?

Hehe...my point exactly, you go engineering these things you could wind up spending LOTS of money! This is something you wait for someone else to figure out.

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I heard the same nonsense and all the same red flags. Specifically from those with no experience. Find a shop that has done it. They are out there. Even if they are not local to you it is worthwhile to ship it there. A friend and I each shipped our cars from DC to Atlanta to have our conversions done. But at least their tech had experience doing these before. (key is their tech) not necessarily the establishment. On the east coast I can think of at least 4 places that have done it if not more. Roock Autosport (did mine), Orton Performance, Farnbacher Loles, Deman Motorsport. For the west coast I can't help you too much.

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no that sounds like estimates from people who have never done it... here in Toronto there is a shop that has done that conversion many many times... and it works and works well... you need to find somebody who has done it... labour isn't more than 40 hours and you'll need the parts I mentioned... everything will work as well... if you can't find somebody who has done it then *definitely* don't do it as those who have done it once or twice have found it extremely challenging... I don't know anybody in the colorado area who has done this... perhaps you can contact FVD and ship the car to them? I don't know how much they charge but they have experience doing it... I know there are some guys in California that can do it as well...

I have done quite a bit of research on this forum, other forums and lots of phone calls and local shop visits. If anyone else has an engine failure, this summary may be helpful. My car is a 1999 C4 with "egas," so "drive by wire" cars are a little different. I am located in Colorado. While there are many good indy shops, none has done any type of 3.6L conversion (996 or 997 motor). I spoke to every shop that advertises in RMR PCA magazine, plus both Denver Dealers and a couple "German" car specialists with Porsche Techs. Thus, to consider a motor conversion, I decided that using an experienced shop would be a better route than trial and error by a local shop (even after shipping costs). Presently, there is special pricing on 997-3.6L motors from SunCoast. While the price was guesstimated above to be $6100, the real price is $7263.80+shipping. I have found used 996-3.4L and 996 3.6L engines ranging from $6,000-$7,500. Lastly, new (factory remanufactured) 996-3.6L motors are about the same price at the 3.4L at $14K. Due to this price, I did not bother with the option of a "new," 996-3.6L in this comparison. Also, the conversion to 997-3.6L was as little as $500 more than using a 996-3.6L. Thus, due to the present Suncoast pricing, I did not evaluate using a used 996-3.6L. Here are some of the options and pricing as of August 1, 2009: A) NO MOTOR CONVERSION: 1) Used 3.4L 996 Motor Base Price: $7,000 (approx. including shipping) Extra Parts/Fluids: $500-$2,000 (includes pre-purchase "testing," plus extras at time of work) Labor: 11-15 hours TOTAL: approx. $9,000-$10,500 2) Porsche Remanufactured 3.4L 996 Motor Motor Base Price: $14,000 (approx. due to core charge possible refund, shipping, sales tax) Extra Parts/Fluids: $200-$1,000 (to be determined at time of work) Labor: 9-12 hours (Note: I had one dealer quote this at 11 hours and the other at 22, no indy shop was over 12) TOTAL: approx. $15,000-$16,000 B) 997-3.6L MOTOR CONVERSION Since no local shop had experience with a 3.6L swap, I did some research, then called two well regarded shops that have done several. I am confident either of these would be a good way to go. However, they completely different approach to the replacement. If anyone is considering this (and not located close to these shops), I suggest calling both shops, then speaking with your local maintenance shop to help decide what they can/cannot handle. I am sure there are other shops (some mentioned above in this thread), that can do this type of work, but I stopped making calls after the two prices were so similar. 1) Roock, Location: GA + CA Motor Base Price: $7500 (includes shipping) Labor+Extra Parts: $5500 Shipping car to/from CO-GA: $1500 TOTAL: $14,500 NOTE: This conversion method uses the existing 3.4L DME and wiring harness. They use a "black-box" to control the variocam plus and other motor timing. There are additional engine mods, plus the fuel sender as required for the 997 motor. ALL electrical functions will work as expected (HVAC, Instrument Panel, no check engine light," cruise control, PSM, etc.) 2) GMG Racing, Location: CA Motor Base Price: $7500 (includes shipping) DME and Wiring Harness: $1500 (includes shipping) Extra Parts: $500-$1500 Labor: $4500 Shipping to/from CO-CA: $1500 TOTAL: $15,500-$16,500 NOTE: This method replaces the DME and Wiring Harness. They use custom connections to the instrument panel, plus do the required work on the fuel-sender unit. ALL electrical functions will work as expected (HVAC, Instrument Panel, no check engine light," cruise control, PSM, etc.) C) CUSTOM BUILD REPLACEMENT ENGINE 1) Flat 6 Innovations, Location: GA Total Cost approx. $21,500 (includes shipping the car both ways, CO to GA) NOTE: Call Jake Raby for more details. Basically, for this method Jake builds custom required motor parts based on his extensive testing of the 996 motors. The final engine would be a 3.6L, but it would not be a "conversion" in the sense of using a 996-3.6 or a 997-3.6 motor. Known problem areas of the engine are modified in such a way to "fix" inherent problems with the factory motors. ALL electrical functions will work as expected (HVAC, Instrument Panel, no check engine light," cruise control, PSM, etc.) ~~~~~ In summary, this is the present pricing landscape. It appears to be a "get what you pay for..." scenario. There are good reasons to pick any of the above solutions to getting a 996 with a dead motor back on the road.

very good report, thanks for sharing this with us. sounds like 997 3.6 is the way to go due to the pricing.

Is 996 3.6L X51 engine not an option due to cost of the engine?

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definitely go with GMG racing if they have done it before... the fact they are replacing the ECU to newer version means things will work smoothly vs other conversions.... 2nd option is to go with Jake... only because of cost though... forget the used engines... your chances of ending up back where you are now are much higher with a used motor... you never know what your getting...

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Hi. Fellow Torontonian here going through my own engine problems . Which place are you referring to?

Finally....My C4 is back in action! After heavy reviews of all possible solutions, I ended up going the factory 3.4L route. I was just too concerned about any "used" engine repeating the problem. With the factory updates and 2-yr. warranty, the factory option seemed to be worth the extra money. I did end up have the installation done by a dealer sine the labor was only a minor part of the expense and the warranty would be "nationwide" though the PCNA dealer network. BTW - the catalytic converter was bad (full of oil/coolant jelly), which added a bit to the sting of the price. The "special sale" on the factory 997 engines ended the on 7/31, which I missed by a weekend. I would have gone that route (using Rook or GMG), however nobody told me the sale was only until the end of the month. Heh, of course I made the decision to move forward on Monday 8/3 - but it was too late! Anyway, I wanted to update this thread with a resolution. THANKS to everyone for suggestions and advice!

Glad to hear you bare back in action!

What was the total cost without the cat?

Glad your back in action