Changing from 964 to 996

Hi guy's, I'm seriously considering joining the 996 fold after 8 years in a 964. Has anyone on here made the change that could offer me some insight? Reliability in the 964 has never been great, although I have worked through the long list of faults as and when they arose - it's been very time consuming and financially draining! Plus my wife hates it, says it's like taking off in a 1970's Boeing!!!! So come on, give me the low down......... Cheers, Mark 964 '90 C2

Well, going from a 993 to a 996 was similar. A 996 is a normal car that looks like a Porsche. Easy maintenance, modern systems, etc. It's like owning a Honda. I put $000s a year into maintaining the 993, but the 996 has been very cheap to run (IMS don't fail me now!) And in terms of comfort and noise isolation, your wife will love it.

Hi Mark. Many Porsche owners will tell you to stick with an air cooled Porsche for reasons of purity and design, the driving 'feel' that is missing in the water pumpers. I disagree, having owned a '68 912, and a wonderful '79 SC, and now in my 5th year of a '99 996.I don't want to go backwards, I like the updated interior, the much improved AC and heating, the acceleration and handling...everything is an improvement to me with the newer Porsches. Like all 911s, we have our share of issues, but all worth the ownership experience in my opinion. Several on this forum have owned both, an one person (Ed) has switched from a 996 to a 964 and loves the change. GL with your search.

Mark, Welcome! 996s are more reliable because it is a newer vehicle. However, it is not without its design flaws. The big problems are the IMS (Intermediate Shaft), leaky RMS and sometimes cracked heads. Those issues can be addressed cheaply. IMS and RMS can be addressed with a clutch replacement. Cracked heads costs about 1500 pounds to fix. I would avoid '98s due to porous blocks but that can be addressed with new sleeves. MKII ('02 to '05) is better than MK1s ('98 to '01s). Buy the newest you can afford with maintenance records. Many of those issues are being talked about in the top 15 threads right now. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...r-or-junk.html https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...es-for-9k.html

Get a 996TT and avoid the IMS & RMS issues

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Mark has the option of buying a MK1 GT3. Get that instead. Only 1800 produced worldwide...

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Yummy!

I guess the value of the GT3 will hold up better than C2/4 or Turbo, although depreciation is low on my list of concerns after pleasure of ownership, enjoyment from the driving seat, lack of bits breaking constantly etc. My driving is purely for enjoyment not commuting, so country lane blasts and a few track days per year maximum. As a side issue, whats the best 996 GT3..... Mk1 or 2?

Oddly my wife likes the 86' 911 better than the 996 - I guess we are a tad odd. 996 is a wonderful car and for those out to get the "full Porsche experience" a "must own" at least once in my book. Jon comapres it to a Honda and I disagree.... more like a Toyota all kidding aside, they are smooth, quiet, refined and if your wife doesnt enjoy the 964 I am guessing it would be right up her alley. As for you, I think you will find maintenance to be less taxing and fewer issues than the 964 but with a couple black clouds that you end up living with or taking opreventative measure to try and avoid. All is all I would rate them very high and contrary to others I still prefer the MKI with throttle by cable (aka 99') If I was looking for one i would take my time and find one with a replaced motor, the resale is not much better but you might avoid one of the early blocks that have been hit and miss on fatal issues Best of luck !

The Honda/Toyota thing is a little offputting, although I do see where you're coming form! This is one that I like the sound of, especially the lsd, and sport suspension........even though the engine hasn't been replaced. http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classifi...ge/2?logcode=p

^ that is a nice car.

I think the Honda/Toyota comments can be seen as a plus when it comes to daily driving and trouble free miles. It is pretty easy to remove some of the feeling of being in a Toyota by changing suspension, exhaust and getting a bigger right shoe - there aint no (stock) H/T cars going to be hanging with you. Plus the brakes are awesome!

Looks like I can sell my 964 for over �15k and pick up a nice(ish) early 996 for �11k leaving �4k for mods!!!!!! Here we go, the slippery slope................

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Improvements were made to MKII GT3s over the MKI. Better aero downforce at higher speeds. If I was buying and just blasting it around the country side, MKI GT3 would get my vote. I have a copy of GT Porsche that compares all the generations, up to 997s, somewhere at home. Give me your email and I will scan and send it to you.

Chao, Sent you a pm

Well, Mark, it is a slippery slope. But not a ride you won't enjoy (from a former '93 964 RS America owner). Real A/C, real heat, real comfort for the wife, will all be a big plus. Also, you will be able to enjoy the mod process since there is plenty of fun stuff out there to do to it. If the car you select has a dry RMS area and a good clutch, then don't lay awake nights worrrying about it like some do here. Just do the RMS/IMS/clutch thing if you experience an actual leak from that area. Do them all at once and save a bunch in labor. The Air/Oil Separator, known here as the AOS, should be replaced if it has not already been done before. If the coolant resevoir plastic is orange-ish instead of white-ish, then consider that as well for replacement. If all of this has been previously done, then don't worry about them. The vast percentage of engines will never need replacing. The real advice seems to be to avoid extremely low mileage garage queens, since the problems seem to arise from LACK of use, rather than too much.

The 996 is enjoyable, esp. if you will treat some issues like RMS/IMS/AOS/water pump, etc. as preventative maintenance items rather than waiting for them to fail. The basic 'problem' with any newer car is that the refinements also serve to reduce the unique character and personality of the car. That's not bad. It just makes the car closer to other cars that have been refined using similar goals. It handles more neutrally than older models (which, for some, means it is less entertaining to drive...for others, it means it handles 'better'...). You turn the key...it starts...no hot or cold rituals. It is quieter. The complexity of the systems tends to reduce the amount of work you can easily do yourself....but with greater dependability and less rust, there is less to do. It is closer to a GT car than the older, lighter, more nimble sports cars...yet, in a collision, I'd bet my a$$ and the family's well-being on the newer car. In effect, it is less entertaining than older sports cars, but better transportation. The issue comes down to, what are you looking for?

The only thing that I can add is that I track with a buddy that drives a 964 C4. My 996 out performs his car all around. He heavily considering updating to a 996. He always tells me after a run if he only had 75 more HP. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Very well put, it's always a worry in a car with no airbags that part of the crash design involves having a space saver spare wheel under the front hood! I would guess most of the guys coming from older cars try to dial in some more 'feel' by pre planned suspension mods/ lighter wheels to add some nimbleness to the equation ???

James briings up a valid point - safety is much greater in the event you need it airbags and designed crumple zones ect equate to less passenger collateral damage - no doubt about it

I test drove a few 964's and 993's before I bought my 996. The 996 is a newer, more modern car. You won't be smelling that familiar burning oil, but you'll have heat at your feet fairly quickly. It is significantly more powerful, and will launch you ahead of traffic nearly instantaneously. So, it's more fun to drive. And even as a DD, I have it just for that reason - fun to drive. But also think of the maintenance cycle. Your routine on a 964 is every 5,000 miles. On a 996, the service routine is 15,000 (except for 5,000 mile oil changes) That brings down the cost of ownership significantly. Not sorry that I bought my 996. But, I would steer clear of the early models. Porsche tended to "secretly" improve on the breed with every car they made. Many of those changes aren't announced, they just appear. Remember that the 996 was a revolutionary car for Porsche. Skip the 99 and 00 models as early adopters. Choose a 03 or greater for the changes made and the 3.6 engine. larry

I've owned two 964's and two 996's in that order. They are very different cars so it's hard to make a recommendation without knowing exactly what you are looking for. The maintenance cost on my 996's was virtually non-existent while my 964's always seemed to need from $500-$2k in annual maintenance not counting oil changes. Good luck in your search!

Mark, I just came from a 964 widebody and a RS America before that to a 99 Aero. I used the 964 as a daily and thoroughly enjoyed it. I was concerned that the newer car would be a little less involving, but must say I have found it to be every bit a Porsche. My 99 is set up with PSS9s, a lowered ride height and some GT3 bits so it is a little tighter than your average stock 996, but still is quite comfortable on my daily one-way hour commute to work. I formerly considered myself a die-hard air cooled guy, but must say I'm every bit as pleased with the water pumper. I would love to add a non-daily air cooled as a weekend car sometime in the future, when life's responsibilities tip in my favor. My guess is you'll miss the sound and some of the characteristics of the 964, but will probably be happy not to deal with some of the compromises. The 996 does have a few "game over" type failures that can occur, but I believe these can be mitigated through purchasing the right car and performing a few targeted modifications and recurring maintenance actions. Like all Porsche's maintenance can jump up and bite you as I just had the transmission rebuilt (main pinion bearing degraded badly, which led to fluid contamination, which manifested itself as a 2nd gear failure and excessive wear/pitting of the syncros- only 44k miles on the car). While I was in there I had the clutch replaced and did the LN IMS bearing. If you can keep both do so, if not take the leap as the 996's represent a great value IMO. You'll know doubt miss some aspects of the older car, but will gain in others. If you have younger kids the back seats are a huge improvement….you can actually securely fit booster seats in the back. I feel substantially better with them in the back of the 996 as compared to the 964. Good luck with your decision.

I just want to throw a shout-out for the older 996's. I don't doubt that earlier cars might have some issues and they got better as they went along. However, if the car is 11 years old with some miles on it it seems like a lot of the catsrophic stuff was fixed earlier under warranty. They are a great bargain and in my case the maintanance is minimal and work is self inflicted. I have had a great experience with my '99 and would have another in a heartbeat.

Compared to driving a 996, 964's sound old, look old, smell old, and drive like an old car.

Guy's, Thank you so much for your input, it's all very much appreciated. Garrett, you track 964's don't you?

Yes, for a while I raced a couple different 964's, but for the past year or so I have been developing and racing an 02 996 C2.

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Emailed. Enjoy the read Mark and take many pics of the new ride for us. That is all we want...

Some of us were born too late - we like older things

Thank you for the scan. Cheers, Mark.

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I guess the primary reason for picking one car over another is going to have to be yours. If I was buying a toy car to have fun on weekends, and maybe drive to work once in a while, I would pick an older - early Porsche. There is a cache' to the sound, feel, smell of those older cars. Driving them is a whole different experience. If you enjoy the history, want to feel like you are repeating that stage of your and your car's life, then go for the older car. If you are looking for a more sophisticated experience. Quieter, with the modern conveniences and comfort, but with raw horsepower and handling capability, then go for a newer 996 or 997 version. I'll say that before I drove one, I considered myself a "purist". Porsches were supposed to be air/oil cooled, with all that went along with it. Then I drove my first 996. It's a modern high powered sports car. Different game, but just as much fun. You makes your pick, and takes your chances. larry

I recently traded in my 1990 964 C4 Cabrio for a 2003 996 Cabrio and eventhough I only got to drive it for a week before winter struck and buried us in snow, I can honestly say that apart from the sound and the looks I don't the 964 one bit... I think the 996 is a better car in every aspect. period. Being a 2003 it doesn't sound like a muted washing machine and the looks is really growing on me so, If you are like me, wanting to stay with a 911 but longing for something more modern, then do the swap. If you do your homework right, you won't regret it...

Thanks Peter, I'm busy doing my homework right now!

Similar to Ed, for driving...I prefer the older, lighter cars. I like their character. I like going into a curve fast enough that the rear just starts to come around, then glue it on with the throttle. With smaller tires, the car is a lot more engaging as there's a lot more room between traction and losing it....and there's a lot of entertainment in that room. A car where it's more about carrying speed than blinding acceleration. But....I have an older airplane that's my project vehicle. I still want to drive a Porsche, but I just don't have the bandwidth anymore to have more than one project at a time. The 996 gives me fairly classic styling with some cues going back as far as a 356, corrosion resistance, dependability and parts availabilty. A very nice handling car with capacity that exceeds my enthusiasm for speed these days. I could get in and expect to drive from the West Coast U.S. to the East Coast and expect to get there and back without drama. But for straight entertainment....older, raspier, lighter, aircooled, no freakin' computers, not an airbag in sight...mechanical not electronic. It just depends on what fits you.

I use the airplane comparison a lot.... seems people "get it" when to use airplanes. When asked why I like an older car I sometimes say "for the same reasons people like to fly around in old airplanes" It really is about right - a light plane is fun but loud, cold/hot, gets tossed in incliment weather, leaks oil, and has radio bugs and smells a bit.....but it can take off in less room at a lower speed and fly on the deck - pretty fun if you like that stuff.... pretty cruddy if you dont

964 is my favorite porsche in terms of aesthetics but other than that I chose the 996 and have been happy since. The threads were the engine explode scare me though.

The 964 and the 996 are very close in weight, and some lower option early 996s are lighter. Of course they're also more aerodynamic, powerful and stiffer. I like the charm of the earlier cars too, but from a driving dynamics perspective (and I don't mean comfort), the newer chassis is superior.

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Hey buddy....speak for your own airplane. Mine is quiet, dependable, comfortable, economical, new radios, real-time-weather in the cockpit, no burning or leaking of oil, new interior and elegant. (Of course, there are others..... ) But keeping it almost like new is why I want a sports car that is less needy. It seems to me that your car is closer to new than "loud, cold/hot, gets tossed in incliment weather, leaks oil, and has radio bugs and smells a bit."

true true (except the "smells a bit" )

I shall go and look at this one when the snow melts..... http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2277154.htm

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I would tend to agree with the above statement. my 1980 911 SC was a blast, and solid until it left me w/178K miles on her my 2000 Boxster was an upgrade in technology, handled great, needed *****!! my 2002 996 C2 is fantastic, I truly love it and have had no problems my 2008 997 C2S should arrive next weekend (more on that later)

Just did exactly what you had contemplated. But kept the 964. Yep is smells of oily gas in the cockpit, and smokes a bit after firing, but it is still pure Porsche air cooled. Which one do I drive now? Well of course the more comfortable one - which is the C4S. The C4S does feel like a new Jap car inside to some extent, but I have to say, once moving, a little pop to the long pedal and this thing simply squirts out from under you - the 964 lugs up to speed with a lot of noise (in part due to an aftermarket air cleaner and U-tube instead of primary muffler). In the end I've kept the 964 for now, having trouble parting with her. But she is stored offsite and the C4S is stored in my garage - just love looking at it from behind when I pull up in my 4x4 truck!