Buying advice needed...

Looking to buy a 996 C4, unfortunetly I have zero knowledge about the new water cooled cars. I've noticed the prices are a fair amount lower on the 1999 cars compared to the 2000 M.Y. is there a legitimate reason or is it just people avoiding the 1st new model year? Are the new water cooled cars as reliable as the 993 models? Are there any common mechanical issues? Is there any advantage to buying a 2000 M.Y. over a 1999? To be honest I'm trying to decide on whether I want to buy a slighlty older used Porsche or a brand new warrantied Mitsubishi Evo VIII MR. My reservation with the Evo is the fact that it doesn't have the build quality or the exclusivity and a few years down the road it's still going to be nothing but a used Mitsubishi... but they are one hell of a performance car with a vast tuning potential. My reservations with the 996 is strictly reliabilty concerns. My wife freaks out any time we have to take a car to get repaired and I know if there are any issues with a Porsche it's not going to be a cheap fix. If I knew the 996's where reliable my decision would be easy. And just so you guys don't think I'm off my rocker for considering the EVO, here's some reading material... EVO Vs Germany's Finest

If you're choosing between an Evo and a 996...get the Evo. The 996 sounds like a stretch for you financially and (not to sound like a snob, but...) if you're comparing the 996 with an Evo, you don't really get the point of a Porsche. So, get the Evo and drive it until the doors fall off or the interior fades & cracks or the motor self destructs or whatever. Then, down the road a few years when you're more financially secure, buy the P-car you're lusting after and enjoy it all that much more. Good luck and have fun with whatever you decide.

The EVO and Subi are great cars that pack allot of performance in a very reasonable price. Warrantees can save your pocketbook and your marriage You're absolutely right, Porsches are very expensive to repair. The 996 in general is a reliable sports car. It won't be rock solid like a Lexus but that's not the intended consumer group. You can get really scared off buying any car by reading internet BBS. That said, realibility figures for the 996 are rare and I have yet to see any official numbers. The 996 is infamous for RMS leaks which have affected a minority of cars. How many? Nobody has an official tally on this figure. Should it scare you away from buying a 996? It depends on your budget. You wife has a good head on her shoulders and you should listen to her. Many people don't keep any expensive car out of warrantee. This is sound advice. Another good saying is that one should buy the newest Porsche that fits in your budget unless of course there's a model that you must have. IMO I would buy the EVO and be very careful about modifications as they may affect your warrantee. Good hunting.

Low 1999 values can mostly be attributed to the fact early build '99s [01/98-06/98] had major issues with regards to coolant leaking into the engine block which was resolved by the factory later in 1998. Porsche removed the amber (yellow) from the headlight/taillight fixtures on the later production vehicles that carried the fix; but that can't be relied upon as a reliable idicator as such is also a popular, almost to the point of being ubiquitous, aftermarket upgrade. Look for a 07/98 or later build date posted inside the driver's door. Generally speaking most folks won't research these issues sufficiently to feel comfortable with purchasing a 1999, so the price of all '99s suffers as a result. Good news is the rear main seal leak [RMS] issue seems to come into play more on the later year vehicles and appears to have spared the 1999s [thank God]. I've got almost 70K on my clicker and no RMS to speak of. The vehicle does not leak one drop of oil. Some are seeing the RMS issue already even in the 2005 997, so there you go. As for reliabilty, I've had four type 911s over the years and one was basically flawless, one almost bankrupted me with a never-ending concatenation of mysterious and puzzling "issues." Mostly, it's been an endearing mix of the two. My last 911 is a late-build 1999 and I must admit there is much I love, and hate about the vehicle. But, I will not part with it. You had better love the marque enough to be prepared for the same, or worse. Additionally, all 1999 vehicles are way out of factory warranty, regardless of manufacturer, and as such even with an expensive aftermarket extended warranty there will still be a costly deductible (usually between $250 - $1K) for each and every repair issue. Honestly though, if you are even comparing an old Porsche to a new Japanese car then you're crusin' the wrong forum. Try http://www.vividracing.com . And a brand new Evo will most likely blow the doors off my 1999 tiptronic. So there ya go. Ciao kid.

A new car loses much more value in the first years than a used one. You should really sit down and calculate over a 3 year period how high the real costs are. Calculate depreciation, cost of after market warranty ( www.1sourceautowarranty.com ), maintenance costs. Don't forget that a EVO has full back seats, trunk space etc. Make a list with all criteria and give each criteria a point value, just like the car magazines do. Good luck.

"Low 1999 values can mostly be attributed to the fact early build '99s [01/98-06/98] had major issues with regards to coolant leaking into the engine block which was resolved by the factory later in 1998." Huh? I had an early '99 and not only didn't I have that problem, but I never heard of it (certainly not a "major issue"). You may be thinking of early Boxsters. "Good news is the rear main seal leak [RMS] issue seems to come into play more on the later year vehicles and appears to have spared the 1999s [thank God]." Did have that one though. They seem to have fixed it on the 2nd try on my car. It's hard to generalize with these cars. They all seem to have their own quirks. Also, '99 really includes 2 years (took delivery of my '99 in April '98). That could account for some of the price difference between '99 & '00. Now that the 00's are off warranty, the price gap should narrow.

I have had a 99 for about a year now and 8,000 miles. For me it was never an issue between it and anything else. I had always wanted a 911 and this one fit what I wanted to pay. I have a C2 Cab, black on black, with the hard top. The car had 25,000 on it when I purchased it and looked almost brand new. The warranty issue does not bother me that much. I realize that I may need to spend some cash if repairs are needed, but I could spend a ton of money before I got to the price point of an 02 or later model with low mileage. To date I have not had one issue with it (I knock on wood every day though). Although, between PSE, short shift kit and several other mods, it still seems to find ways to get at my pocket book. If you are looking for something for a daily driver and to put alot of miles on, I would go with the EVO. If you are looking for something just to enjoy driving and to satisfy a longing need you have had, the Porsche was an easy decision for me. Another option is to put away $100 a month or so in a safe place so your spouse does not feel the full effect of any needed repairs. Kris

I won't lecture or comment on which car to get. Only you know your financial situation, so drive both and decide. Don't let magazine writers and/or internet BBS poster determine which car is right for you. Drive them both and whichever makes you grin the most is what you should get. There are some other differences between the 99 and 00-01 cars not mentioned above. For example the interior materials used in the 00-01 cars is different than the 99's. Some think it is nicer some don't notice (oh and don't forget those cupholders in the 00-01 cars ). The 99 C4's are different than the 99 C2's because they have egas and come standard with PSM, whereas PSM was not available on the 99 C2 (only LSD) and egas was not on the car. There are some other revisions. If you search this forum you will find all kinds of comparisons and discussions. If you are new to Porsche realize that the options on the car can really effect the price of the car. There are a lot of really cheap 996's but most of them are optioned very lightly and missing some of the more desirable options. A good PPI is also important on any used Porsche.

Too funny, so just because I throw in my message that I am also considering an Evo VIII it automatically throws me into the lower income ricer bracket that can't afford a Porsche or it's repair. So I guess if you make a ton of money you stop worrying about reliable cars cause you can afford to be annoyed by having them repaired all the time? Even if you can afford to have them fixed who wants a car that's going to break down all the time...not me. So WHAT is the POINT of a Porsche? Or is it like "soul" if you have to ask you won't understand...hehe. I can afford a Porsche and it's repair, doesn't mean that I'm stupid with my money and that I don't care throwing it at repair bills. Hence my question on reliability. I do understand the mentality though. It kind of sucks to pay for expensive, exclusive cars/ bikes and have some Japanese import that costs half as much have the same or better performance. I own a Ducati 998R which is a gorgeous performance machine but there are many a cheaper Japanese bike that will outperform it all day long...would I trade it out for one of those Japanese bikes? No way! So I do understand to an extent what the Porsche experience is all about (had a 1979 930 and a '96 993). I was just curious at to any reliabilty issues with the new motors. My 993 was rock solid, no problems what so ever; but I've been away from Porsche for awhile so am out of the loop with regards to the H2O motors.

old 996s vs new Evo MRs are in the same price range, hence the comparison. It's a valid comparison... and that MR will destroy the C4. If he wants pure performance with price, get the Evo MR. If you want prestige, performance, and price.. get a used 99-00 C4.

"My wife freaks out any time we have to take a car to get repaired and I know if there are any issues with a Porsche it's not going to be a cheap fix." It definetely sounded as if money is an issue. I am glad that it's not. Honestly I would be embarrassed driving around in a Japanese car with a lot of spoilers front and back. I am buying a 996 soon and my decision was between an M3 convertible and a 996 convertible. You really can't compare those cars the way you do it. My 951 has over 300 rwhp, can I compare it to a 996? No.

"...I was just curious at to any reliabilty issues with the new motors. My 993 was rock solid, no problems what so ever; but I've been away from Porsche for awhile so am out of the loop with regards to the H2O motors." i put 95k miles on the 996 i just sold. no issues, 'cept for a blown gearbox at 45k...it had about $5k of defferred maintenance the guy will have to take care of straight away, and at the end of the day, it'll still be a well-used car with a high probability of more failures. If it were my $, i'd strech for something newer than a '99--certified or w/ some factory warranty.

For starters, you're worried about the cost of repairs. The Evo has the warranty, the 996 doesn't. A RMS will cost you $1k+, a clutch twice that much, dealer oil changes $250, rear tires last 10-12k miles, etc. Reliability was part of your questioning (a big unknown), cost was another (expensive when things need repair). Don't be so sensitive to honest feedback based upon what you posted (with that attitude are you sure you'd want to be seen in an Evo?). Secondly, you're comparing two completely different cars, built and designed for different clientele. Your Ducati analogy works well here too. If money isn't an issue and you want something reliable that shouldn't rack up big repair bills, get an '02. The '02 and later cars are much improved over the earlier ones (there's numerous threads on this, do a search) and they're still under warranty for awhile.

Thanks for the replies, I do appreciate it. The reason my wife bitches about car repair is because she is FEMALE! They don't understand spending money on cars, they can spend $200 on a pair of pumps without batting an eye but spend $5 bucks on the car and they're freaking out. My wife thinks cars are perpetual motion machines... you just get in turn the key and they go. Gas? What's that? They need oil? You mean you have to maintain them? Why do I have to warm it up? Etc etc etc. Personally I don't mind a little maintenance and the occaisional hicup (come on I own a Ducati!) I just don't wan't something that's going to be driven more by my repair shop than me. So what's up with the leaky Rear Main Seals? Design flaw or bad seals? Do the new motors burn oil like the old ones? What are some things to look for when test driving ?

If you like the 996, get it. Don't let people on this board scare you into thinking that you are most likely to have trouble with it. Maintanance of the Porsche is inexpensive with the exception of the rear tires which need to be replaced about every 10,000 miles. If you are an idiot, you can certainly go to the dealer for an oil change for $250, but they do use a condom for your protection. Or you can change it yourself for a total investment of 20 minutes and $65.00 for oil and filter or have a Jiffy Lube change it for $20 more using your filter and oil. The RMS is not a big issue with the Porsche and the vast majority of these cars never have a problem with any oil leaks. There are no special services to be performed on the Porsche that will not be required on the EVO. Unless you are tracking the car, you should get 100,000 miles + out of the clutch and the replacement of the clutch costs little more than a new clutch in a Honda Accord. The brakes are excellent and will last more than 40,000 miles front and 80,000 miles back; at minimum. It boils down to which car you like the best. You have to remember that 90% of the posters on forums like this one are here because they have trouble with their cars. This is what these forums are all about. You seldom hear from the ten's of thousands of Porsche owners who never experience a problem. Good luck with the decision.

My my'99 has been (knock on wood) rock solid ni issues, just typical maintenance, battery, filters, fluids etc. Get the porsche, I had a WRX right before I bought the porsche while I loved the WRX there is no real comparison.

Thanks for your post. It�s strange but I remember reading the article that you posted the web site for when it was in their magazine � at that time I was not in the market for a Porsche and was interested in the comparison. Reading it now is very interesting because my perspective had changed drastically - I have the C4s and I have a friend with an S4 and another with an M3. I will apologize for some of my other board brethren � there seem to be a number of people willing to make assumptions about other peoples SES and will tell you what to do instead of saying �If money is an issue�do this� C�est la vie. To answer your question I would put it this way. A good hooker will get your rocks off for little money and no maintenance (unless you happen to get something ) but wouldn�t you rather have a women with some class who also happens to have..ahem�other talents for a long term relationship? I think it is incredible how Porsche has managed to build a car that has a high quality feel without the added weight. The Evo is incredible in the price/performance band but I have functions that I have to attend that require wearing a Tux and I really can�t see myself pulling up in a car with a wing that big under such circumstance, particularly with my wife in tow. Whatever you choose will be based upon how you live your life but I don�t think you can go far wrong with either choice. Good luck. Barry

Great analogy! Your C4S Rocks! I'm leaning toward the C4. Now to find a good example. It's crazy how the prices vary across the country. I couldn't touch a 996 C4 in this town for under $55K, I can find them all day long back east for the high $30's. It will actually appreciate in value by just driving it home, can't beat that. Thanks everyone for the help.

I'd get the Porsche, obviously. You only live once, a 911 is an awsome machine. My wife is much the same regarding money. I got my C4S in 6/03 (I ordered it in Jan), in Feb of that yr I got her a new car, a pre-emptive strike so to speak. That's usually how I work the car stuff. HW, I'm with you, I couldn't pull up to one of my hospital outings in some ricer, but mine does have a spoiler! Did you get snow tires on yours yet, I got the pirelli 240 snow sports, had to buy rims and spacers though, what a freakin' hassle. Chris

Yup! Managed to get a set of tires that had hardly been touched (Wintersports) from another Rennlist user who no longer has his C4S for $500 and a complete set of original Turbo wheels off of eBay (no spacers needed) for only $750. So, for $1,250 I am all set To continue that thread a little - we have had some snow here recently (same as you obviously) and the car is fantastic. Obviously the laws of physics still apply but other than an occasional wag of the finger at me (yellow PSM light on dash) the car is rock solid and just plain works. Never had so much fun driving to work. Barry

dustinr I was facing a similar decision or at least similar to me. I was trying to decide between a new outgoing c5 corvette and a used 996. The vette was less money. A friend of mine gave this advice. Go drive a 4 year old vette and a 4 year old porsche. then decide. I took that advice and it was truly a no brainer. The vette felt used up, the porsche was...well, a porsche. having had a couple of Mitsubishi's around the house in the past, i dare say they are not much different than the vette after a few thousand miles. There truly is no substitute. I found the best 996 I could find from an individual and bought it. I hate to pay sales tax, although I can afford it. Find the 996 you want and drive it until you want a different porsche.