193 captured repliesDiscussion pagination complete · Source accounts, not a confirmed diagnosis
THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHWhat's with the new PCA Forum?
Reported or suspected cause
pca forums (coincidentally "pcaforums.com")
Reported cause
No successful repair reported for this finding.
1
Identified cause
0
Suspected cause
0
Reported fixes
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that report identifying a cause
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Reported cause
To get an e-mail/announcement of a pca***.com" site, and whether intentional or by sheer "coincidence" - had many believing it was the PCA Forums (coincidentally "pcaforums.com").
Leading evidence: 'pca forums (coincidentally "pcaforums.com")' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'pca forums (coincidentally "pcaforums.com")' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Adjust ip' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
Source reports, not a diagnosis or a success probability. Counts refer to discussions and can overlap.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that report identifying a cause
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Reported cause · Original poster
It was the very first thing that came to mind when I was invited to participate on the site - as I'm sure was the case for every other Rennlister (and others) who opted to participate.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I didn't give them much info., and I've changed all my data to true-but-irrelevant stuff.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
The company changed their name to Victor's Little Secret and the case went to the Supreme Court.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
But, for whatever reason, they "saw the light" and changed their website name and design.
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
I am wondering John because the AlfaBB forum uses the same software as Rennlist and recently on that forum a credit repair spamer started posting and not but a week or so later in the e-mail box I use there and here I start getting credit repair spam with the same message as the postings?
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
I am wondering John because the AlfaBB forum uses the same software as Rennlist and recently on that forum a credit repair spamer started posting and not but a week or so later in the e-mail box I use there and here I start getting credit repair spam with the same message as the postings?
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
Remember - when I started Rennlist - there were exactly TWO "RENNwhatever" sites on the Internet - one in Germany (yes - I asked their permission and told them about the name change from "PorscheList") and a PCA Region (at that time - that region was about to start their website - but, what the heck - I asked anyway.
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
I changed my IP address to look to see if Phil had gotten a response and in the time that I was there two new members were banned and their posts were deleted.
These are separate views of the same evidence. Frequency alone does not establish a fix, and these counts must not be added together.
pca forums (coincidentally "pcaforums.com")
No successful repair reported for this finding.
1
Identified cause
0
Suspected cause
0
Reported fixes
Read evidence and context
Discussions that report identifying a cause
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Reported cause
To get an e-mail/announcement of a pca***.com" site, and whether intentional or by sheer "coincidence" - had many believing it was the PCA Forums (coincidentally "pcaforums.com").
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Reported cause · Original poster
It was the very first thing that came to mind when I was invited to participate on the site - as I'm sure was the case for every other Rennlister (and others) who opted to participate.
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
193 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
0 evidence records excluded for query context · 0 excluded by outcome qualification · 0 adjusted by outcome qualification.
1 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
I susbscribed, but not sure how this will differ from or add to the Rennlist forum experience. They claim they will be more interactive, giveaways, etc. I'm assuming all PCA members with an email address were invited to join. Anything new under the sun here? The site is
http://pcaforums.com/forum
.
FYI: It appears that they ARE NOT affiliated with PCA.
This is from their web site at the very bottom:
All content, including images are property of PCAForums.com. This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Porsche AG, Porsche North America, or Porsche Club of America.
oh boy - PCNA has a pack of attorneys that look for TM infringement issues and who (so I have heard - *I* am sure they're all nice folks) make the Hildabeast look like Mother Theresa - this could be over before it starts. PCA probably won't be amused either.
On a perhaps related note, has anyone else noticed that of the Disney movie "Cars" toys, you don't see Sally Carrera anymore?
Charlie, that's interesting. I didn't read the fine print, and assumed it was a forum sponsored by the Porsche Club of America. Maybe that explains why there are
zero
threads in the "911" section!
I really couldn't see how this would add to either Rennlist or the 6speedline forum. Rennlist is still, far and away the best and most informative Porsche forum on the web.
These guys are a bunch of tools. Trying to copy the model of Rennlist in the hopes of cashing in. Gotta love the free-market system.
What boggles me is why in the world do they call themselves "PCA"forum when they are in NO WAY affiliated with PCA? Sounds like deception to me to gain membership.
I'll play devils advocate for a second.
Guys, haven't seen the invite yet, but the letters PCA are not trademarkable. Porsche Club of America is. They are "People, Cars and Activities". Bottom feeders, most likely, but legally they might be able to use the letters PCA, especially since they put a disclaimer on the bottom. Google PCA or PCA.com and you'll see even though we believe that the world revolves around Porsche, it doesn't.
Car forums like rennlist are nothing new or exclusive and I know it is hard to believe, but Porsche didn't invent the car forums...Al Gore did.
It's a matter of context. If they're trying to become a Porsche forum, then they're playing on the name of PCA and that is not allowed and probably sanctionable.
The question is, "would a reasonable person be confused by the use of PCA in the context that these people are using it?" I think from the response of this group it is safe to say that the answer is yes.
And that's the counter point to "devil's advocate". Anybody who owns a Porsche (for the most part) knows that "PCA" is synonymous with Porsche and to setup a "Porsche" chat board that is entitled PCAForums you are going to get ALOT of people thinking that PCA set up a discussion forum. Don't think for a second that their intent is People, Cars, and Activity
Well, I figured that at least it would be an email scavenging exercise. I went in and chan ged my personal information after I figured out that it was a PCA rip-off.
User Name.......PCAforumsAreBogus
Location: The real Porsche sites.
Cars : You know how many 911's there are guys?
Anyhooo....sounds like a scam and a run on Rennlist's long tenure at providing a great site.
Everyone should set up a bogus account and use a yahoo address. Then set your user profile with a url to the Ren. They will get the idea.
Time to bring on the new year.
Hope everyone has a great evening and a safe one as well.
Congrats, Wayne!
You're the first to be banned from PCAforums.com!
The site had at that moment, a total of 8 threads and 32 posts.
Must be some kind of record!
Whoo-hooo!!! That's SO cool! I've never intentionally gone out to get banned before.
The record is more impressive when you consider that 6 of the 32 posts were mine.
I'm impressed.
They were actually kinda slow to ban me considering that I posted this afternoon and they obviously didn't ban me until 7pm.
The website says I'm banned until 7pm on New Year's Eve 2009.
Did Phil get banned also? (I'm blocked from the website)
No, Phil G's not banned yet.
Here's the mod's post for you, since you can't view it:
"wellardmac was banned from this site not for the negative posting here but for posting the same message in multiple threads and for creating a false signature with foul intent listing his car as " your wife" is an example of the BS that will not be tolerated here."
It took at least 10 minutes of thought to come up with the "your wife" car.
Pretty sad. No loss there. Rennlist rules. I only registered as I thought it was a legitimate PCA site.
I'm sure that PCA will take care of them pretty soon.
Thanks for letting me know what happened.
Strangely enough if I go to the site from another computer on my network I can see their forum. They deleted all of the posts except the ones in the New member posting area. I thought that their response was pretty funny.
Anyway, we shouldn't be taking up bandwidth here with this. I'm sure it will get taken care of by itself.
Yeh, I thought the mod's response was pretty funny, given that the website's mission statement is, "We are geared to be .........just a [sic] all around warmer, more welcoming atmosphere."
I don't think PCA is gonna have to do anything.
They have a whopping 3 members sign up, then they ban one of the three after 6? posts!
Doesn't look like a promising start.
I regret that I'm one of them. I signed up right after seeing the first post in this thread yesterday. I didn't give them much info., and I've changed all my data to true-but-irrelevant stuff. I won't set out to get banned, as I'd like to watch the developments. And I emailed the PCA president yesterday, as others seem to have done.
Although my posts have magically disappeared since yesterday, I was able to post this AM - accusing them of being misleading and potentially illegal. I'm sure that post will be gone by today as well (if the webmaster isn't too hungover).
So their forum as they claim is NOT Porsche but rather People Cars and Activities yet their main page is Porsche's, their forums are Porsche model specific, and their classifieds are 1. Porsche and 2. Others
FYI...they have a link on their website to HELP keep it a free site by donating.
Wayne & Phil,
You guys are officially the "Bad Boyz of Rennlist!" Talk about ending an old year with a bang!
Wayne - I'm impressed that you got banned so quickly.
Phil - I can't say anything about you dragging a couple of guys into a "fake forum" because I have made a New Year's resolution to stop giving you a hard time. I don't want to break that resolution on the first day of the year! Tomorrow maybe, but not today!
Yeah, it will be interesting to see how this plays out. It was funny to see the moderator's post that they could chose any domain name they wanted.... obviously they don't know much about trademarks and cybersquatting.
The dicey thing in this case is that Porsche Club of America doesn't have exclusive use of PCA, but it could be argued that they do have the exclusive use in the area of Porsche.
It's funny, as I've never gone out to do anything like that before. Their blatant use of the PCA name annoyed me so much that I couldn't resist. The idea of me and Phil being bad boys is laughable in itself.
I probably could have gotten banned more quickly, but I didn't want to be a total *** about it. In the end I got banned for the wrong reason... banning me just because I said that their wife was my car.
Someone was a little sensitive obviously- maybe they've had problems with others driving their wives.
It's
GONE!!
along with the rest of my posts. My goodness, I can't understand why!
As for you and I being the "Bad Boyz of Rennlist," I will reserve that honor exclusively for you Wayne, since I'm such a nice, innocent guy.
I can't speak for you!!
Ouch! That hurts. Abandoned and banished. Unloved. A pariah of the PCAforums
At least now everyone knows the fast way to get banned - just change their car name to "Your Wife" and you're all set.
That's right boys and girls, you heard it here.
I will forever hold the record for being banned after 0 Posts.
I should get a free t-shirt or something.
I submit to you:
Thank you for logging in, PCAforumsAreBogus.
Click here if your browser does not automatically redirect you.
You have been banned for the following reason:
No reason was specified.
Date the ban will be lifted: Never
Thank you,
PCAForumsSuckAzz
. Your registration is now complete.
You may now proceed to edit your Profile in order to fill in additional personal details about yourself, or you could modify your Options to customize your browsing experience of this site. If you would rather do these things later, you can do so by following the links around the site to your User Control Panel.
Alternatively, you can simply go back to the Forums and start posting in threads.
The clock is ticking,,,,
Actually, I'm in favor of leaving them alone.
I hate to be a party-pooper, but I think that they have enough problems coming and Rennlist should not be a place for instigation of attacks against other forums - we value this place and should not be using it in a manner that might cause trouble for John.
It's better that they're left alone for PCA to deal with. Vu is aware of them and will take whatever action he can against them.
maybe I'm a little confused here, but where is the "blatant use of the PCA name"? If you choose to or not to participate in their forum is your choice. But for several of you to slander them here and on their site and their site AND using the good name of Rennlist is pathetic. And to spend time TRYING to get banned? If their site doesn't live up to your expectations so be it. Regardless of whether using pca in their web address is right or wrong is not for any of us to decide.
I have no affiliation with this group or their forum nor am I a member at this time. I found out about this site through a thread about an upcoming event at Sebring on the racing forum. One of their members is a photographer and offered to take photos. He asked us to register on the site and provide car info. I went to the site but haven't registered yet.
What's next? Attacking renntech because they have renn in their name?
Steve
They are clearly misleading, and some here fell for it,
and more people out there probably will.
As for the extra fun, it is just that.
How can you not laugh at "Your wife" as car type?
John
Renn just means race. PCA means Porsche Club of America. Using the latter with the subtext "a community within a community" is an apparent attempt to mislead people into thinking PCA owns the forum, no matter what bogus alternate meaning they offer for the abbreviation. Why? To earn money off the PCA name.
At best -and this is being charitable- they're idiots. At worst, they're thieves. Maybe it's in the middle; maybe they're just liars. Either way, ridicule is what they deserve.
Apparently, they didn't care for me or my commentary either:
"You have been banned for the following reason:
Anything better to do with your new year?
Date the ban will be lifted: Never"
I believe that they think that this is all my work, as they have banned my IP address. Pretty funny considering that I have not done anything since my first and last posts yesterday.
I'm not sure of their logic considering that others are still picking on them, even though I have no access to their site.
I'm innocent guv honest.
A couple of basic issues need to be addressed here. First, what is the motivation for a group to create yet another Porsche discussion forum - after reviewing it, it adds nothing to the forums that already exist, including Rennlist. Second, I disagree with Steve that the use of PCAForums isn't misleading - it clearly leads one to believe that Porsche Club of America is the sponsor of the board, which it's not. "People, Cars and Activities" - really now, give me a f-ing break! I, as others on this board, were clearly led to believe that Porsche Club of America was the sponsor. If it's not illegal, the name is clearly misleading. Whether it's a copyright infringement is for the lawyers to decide, if it's even worth their time to pursue it. I don't think any of us were trying to slander the site, just being protective of the 'real' PCA. Just my $0.02.
Absolutely, if they were not intending to piggy back on the good reputation of the PCA, then they would have chosen another name for their Porsche forum.
Holger - sorry to see that you're also on the blocked list.
Banned by the IP General as well.....hummm, takes all of about 4 seconds to adjust the IP but its not worth the time. Just a little holiday fun, back to work.
I guess I haven't been banned after all, at least not yet! But here's my latest post to my comment on Wellardmac's post on their use of the PCA name. I simply commented that I'd be interested to see PCA's response. My post follows the webmaster's. Now, they've gone and pissed me off. I, for one, am done with these jerks.
I'll tell you one thing, the last thing I need from you is to be insulted when I asked a very simple straightforward question. Your use of the PCA moniker in your web address is drawing some legitimate questions and criticism. A place to fester my inadequacies? Is that what you really think? Just answer questions from Porsche owners who are questioning your use of "PCA" - it's clearly misleading. The very fine print at the bottom of the page is very easily missed. One would deduce that the forum is sponsored by the Porsche Club of America. Continue to insult your posters and you'll have more banned than active members.
Now I'll be interested to see the response to that comment!
I really do wonder if they have a clue about intellectual property rights and cybersquatting.
Whoo-hoo! Go Phil!
Those guys are deleting posts and banning members left and right. I changed my IP address to look to see if Phil had gotten a response and in the time that I was there two new members were banned and their posts were deleted. It's the best case of censorship I've seen in a while.
It was funny, as I saw a moderator post a reply to Phil's message, then immediately delete it. What a bizzaro forum.
My 2 cents - These guys are either 1) obviously taking advantage of the Porsche Club Of America's goodwill. 2) genuinely stupid enough to think what they are doing is legitimate. Either way - toss 'em...feakin' *** clowns!.
THAT SAID....where I come from PCA is the Portland Cement Association, which was founded in 1916, some 30 years before Porsche GMBH and some 40 years before the Porsche Club of America began.
The PCA is one of the most active industry advocacy groups in existence today. Very important group, working for almost a hundred years under the PCA designation.
Interestingly, the Porsche Club of America was first to register the domain name... The *real* PCA was stuck with this domain:
http://www.cement.org/pca/
If I get some time I might go rattle the PCA forums guys as well - dinks.
Here's their response to my comment:
________________________________________________________________________ ____________
Hey Phil,
No one is forcing anyone to become a member here, the owners of this website are not the Porsche Club of America or Porsche AG, Porsche North America that is why the disclaimer is there. Check any forum that is based around a car company or any company for that matter, including Rennlist.
You are acting like we are making a forum for all the wrong reasons, when in fact we are providing a gathering for friends that share the same intrests. We are giving away items to our members, I myself go to DE's and Races and take photos for our members for free.
I
am sorry that you are having confusing on our name, but PCAForums is not Porsche Club of America. Regardless of what you think, it is not our attention to "trick" anyone into thinking we are associated with the Porsche Club of America, hence the disclaimer and the "People Cars Activities"
I hope you can see past your misunderstanding and enjoy our community,
if not stay where you are
.
Happy New Year
________________________________________________________________________ ___________
It's not their intention to "trick" folks into connecting their name with Porsche Club of America? My misunderstanding? Yeah, mine and virtually everyone else's who signed up for their forum!! I was going to suggest that these guys just don't get it. But, it's clear that they get it completely.
have any of you actually researched the definitions of cybersquatting and intellectual property? For that matter, how about copyrighting?
Last time I checked, the Porsche Club of America does not have exclusive rights to PCA. If they were so interested in cybersquatting, why haven't they shut down PCA Electronics, Inc. BTW, their web address is
www.pca.com
. Is there a thread here about Porsche going after them? Or as Jasper mentioned the Portland Cement Association?
It doesn't take a genius to look at their homepage to realize that there is absolutely no affiliation with the Porsche Club of America. Do you see any Porsche logos or anything else that designates the Porsche Club of America besides their web address? The answer is no.
Steve
Steve, you may be correct here that there is no legal violation. There can be no debate that their use of "PCA" is at the very least, deceiving. I can tell you that the
real
PCA is taking a serious look at their site. But, from the responses I've received to my relatively tame posts, the moderators are at best, insulting. And, that's enough to keep me, and potentially others, from becoming users of that board.
Phil, put yourself into their shoes for a second. You start a forum and you're attracting new members. Then, these members begin a process of inflamatory posts, threatening posts, slandering your site, etc. Wouldn't you go into a defensive mode?
Is their use of PCA deceiving? It may be. But, is it illegal? How many of you sent emails to the Porsche Club of America siting their use of PCA? and the "real" PCA? If there is no legal violation, what can they do?
Frankly, if I was in their shoes, I'd be viewing this thread and taking notes.
Steve, if there is no legal violation, fine! Let them "take notes" if they wish. After reading over the posts both on their board and Rennlist, none constitutes slander. Anyone is allowed to start a business - we're just reacting to what we perceive as deceit on their part. It will be interesting to see what PCA's response is - it may all be behind the scenes, so we may not see it publicly.
so, I guess we can just forget about the posts to see how long it takes to get banned, let's try this screen name to see if it's allowed, etc. or were these posts deleted?
personally, I don't think that the Porsche Club of America will do anything. They may watch the site a bit, but that's about it.
I think that there was an extreme overreaction by a few that incited others to also act quite unprofessionally. And why - because they used pca in their name? BFD
My first post....
NC checking in. Found site through Rennlist.com
NC could be checking out. Also found through Rennlist that this is NOT affiliated with the Porsche Club of America.
Hmmm, wonder what the over / under is on the lifespan of this site. The buzzards are starting to circle.
And their reply....
Welcome to the Site, and we are feeling pretty healthy at the moment...they say we live longer these days.
Steve, it's not a huge deal, it's just deceitful, IMO. But, to say we acted "unprofessionally," just read the replies of their webmaster - I've posted one above. Now, THAT'S unprofessional. Enough said.
We need a Lawyer to give their .02.
There is,(to me) clear intent to benefit from adopting the acronym that is(legally) wrong. I am with you guys, I read cases that were less blatently obvious in connection than this situation and the Plaintiffs won copyright infringement.
I agree with Phil! It's a different story if you call a flower shop in Thailand PCA than calling a sports car discussion forum in the US PCA. It's the same intent as if I call a Ford dealership "Ferrari Cars of New York" and then say:"Ah it's in honor of my grandmother as her maiden name was Ferrari."
Why isn't it "Cars, People, Activity"? Simple, none of us would have gone there to check it out.
Also, what does "a community within a community" imply?
I'm not going to get all worked up about it, since the site will die on its own soon enough. They'll fool a few people for a little while, but not enough to gain any real traction. And they're probably dumb enough to believe that any publicity is good publicity.
Okay boys and girls, let's settle this one with facts.
Trademark # 75240075 filed with the US patent and Trademark office on Feb. 11, 1997 was grated to the Porsche Club of America.
The trademark was granted for "PCA" DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
i.e. PCA and logos and usage of said mark in commerce, specifically for "books and magazines promoting the interests of owners of sport cars and slipcovers for magazines."
FIRST USE: 19870700.
FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19870700
Any questions.
their site does not use the PCA design so there is no copyright infringement. It's that simple. As previously stated, you can not simply copyright the letters PCA and in this case, the Porsche Club of America did not. They protected their logo with the words, letters, etc. but the primary focus is the logo, not the letters.
I'm glad that you have time to waste researching copyrights. However, if you're going to quote them, you had better get it right.
Actually, the reading of the trademark (I wouldn't call 2 minutes a great deal of time to find this info - any idiot can do it) appears to specify that the words stand alone from the logo.
The key to a trademark is the use of the mark in context. In this case the context is "promoting the interests of owners of sport cars". i.e. you can use PCA how you chose, but if you chose to use it in the context of the trademark, then PCA owns it and you infringe.
Steve,
Aside from my feeling compelled to mention that trademark and copyright are two different things, I'll leave the legal dispute to the IP practitioners. But that's not the point. The point is that these guys are clearly trying to trick people into thinking they're part of the PCA.
Legal or not, I don't think it's ethical. And customers don't like being lied to.
CP
Yeah, I wasn't even going to get into that one, even though some were confusing the two.
Here's an interesting overview on domain name disputes on BitLaw
http://www.bitlaw.com/internet/domain.html
and one from Chilling Effects
http://www.chillingeffects.org/domain/faq.cgi
It's never straightforward and this is no slam-dunk. It will all come down to whether someone thinks that this is worth spending attorney fees on. The question will be whether the PCA and it's lawyers see this as trademark dilution.
Well, part of trademark dilution can also be degrading an established name. Companies spend a lot of money building brands. if a company comes along with a similar brand of lower quality, then that is still trademark dilution.
An example from a couple of years ago was when Victoria's Secret sued Victor's Secret (sex toy store) in Kentucky for diluting their trademark
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/LAW/11/...tus.trademark/
The company changed their name to Victor's Little Secret and the case went to the Supreme Court. Lower courts upheld the dilution of Victor's Secret as dilution, but the Supreme Court found no dilution of the brand by the later name of Victor's Little Secret - Victoria's Secret lost the case. An important finding was that the marks did not have to be identical to cause dilution, as long as they had the intent to mislead, or play upon a well established brand.
The problem with technology law is that it's like the wild west - unchartered and an ever changing landscape of conflicting precedents.
I posted a skeptical response to the name of the forum yesterday. I went back today, and it was erased. I just posted another on the same subject, pointing out the obvious PCA trick. We'll see.
Can anyone get the logo/picture uploaded to this site? I tried, but it tells me its an invalid file.
Nah, I'm not touching that one. I'm staying away from those guys.
If PCA choses to take action, then that's their call, but beyond the opinions that I posted and were deleted I'm done with their site.
I think that the majority shares the same opinion on their choice of name, so there's little we can do beyond the sentiments already expressed.
The funny thing is that a PCAforum banned member that has been complaining on here about PCA forums has deleted posts and members and screen names on a P-car related forum that he administers!
Those retards don't even have a forum for us 928'ers. It's not like our 928 forum here is slacking in activity.
I think that one will go down in flames real soon.
The admin is a rennlist member:
https://rennlist.com/forums/members/57235-tilly.html
Eric T. = Tilly
I'm sure y'all figured that out quickly, but when I went to go check it out I immediately recognized the autocross pictures he posted as a series he also posted here, in the autocross forum, a while back.
While I'm not as rabid about it as some people, I'm a bit annoyed about the hijack of PCA in their site's name. If they really don't mean it to be a hook, they should just change it and add a redirect. I predict nothing good will come for them with their attitude and approach. :/
I check there once in a while and it looks like we have more posts here talking about them than they have in total posts.
I thinks it's safe to say that PCA members first thought it was a real PCA site and once they knew it wasn't, they bailed.
You know that you want to drive the C4S - just DO it!
I had my car out on Sunday - took a drive down the Jersey side of the Delware and had a blast... well despite being tailed on the drive back through Buckingham by a cop... he was traveling the opposite direction and turned around to follow me to the town line. You wonder what goes through their minds when they do that.
Yeah, but tell me what's going through his mind when he stops traffic to turn around and follow 50ft behind me waiting for me to go over the speed limit. Who in their right mind would speed when a cop is sitting behind them?!?!
...Plus the fact that traffic wouldn't let me got over the limit anyway, as the road was busy and moving at the speed limit. Very strange. Maybe he was just admiring my rear end. I know that following the rear of a Carrera gets me going every time.
Despite the unexpected escort on the way home I had a good drive - the roads were wonderful. I'll have to check out rte523 - any good for a fun drive?
Agree with you fully. Sure there may be some probable/possible cause for suspicion as to the use of PCA but they are not violating anything. And whilst we may feel that what they are doing is wrong, I question if the reaction by some members here may have been slightly immature at best. Each to their own, but I think that the better way to show rennlist as the premier Porsche community would not be to necessarily act childishly in other forums.
Did they use the PCA name to give credit to their forum....almost 100% sure they did. I know rennlist has been a wealth of knowledge, with that being said I like to think I gave back to this community with the knowledge I have learned here, to those who needed or asked for it.Who is to say that the new forum would not have benefited all of us?
I am not condoning what they did, but I would hate to think we are missing out on another great source for us Porsche owners.I am sure most of you here are also members of 6speed, I go there allot because of the very active Turbo forum,don't get me wrong I LOVE the list, but I would hate to think the same thing could have happened there because of the over reaction of some of the members here. Yes I know this is a different scenario but it could have played out in many ways.
This should settle the debate. It looks like they folded the tent...PCAForums is now CLUB GOOMBA!
Just when you thought they learned a valuable lesson, this time they ripped off a video game character for their logo.
Hey Harold -- SNAP!!!!! Club Goomba Forum now. Think this had anything to do with our "immaturity" or maybe the REAL PCA folks got involved? Isn't it interesting how their wonderful PCAForums site completely unraveled within 2 weeks of startup. And their webmaster whining about how could
anyone
possibly misconstrue their use of PCA with Porsche Club of America. Mere coincidence? Yeah, right!! Isn't it obvious to you what they were attempting to do? Gaining legitimacy by ripping off the name of a respected, reputable organization, that's what.
Whew - I feel better now.
Once again I agree fully, there are other forums that supplement the likes of Rennlist for me very well and these include 6speed for their very strong turbo content and Renntech for their fantastic tech info. I guess that the difference is that neither of them went out of their way to deceive their members as to any affiliations.
Phil, I never said that what they did was right. If you read my post I suggest that they may in fact have been deceiving us. Hey, I never even bothered signing up. BUT my key gripe has been the way in which I have seen us react to the PCAforum, I just dont see it as necessary. As some other members have said I think they would have died a natural death if they brought nothing new to the table and we saw through the potential deceit with warning posts on this site together with a couple of mails to PCA itself. I didnt see Renntech or 6speed members go quite so out of their way to make a scene on the new site (although I may have missed this). And this if nothing else this may have reflected badly on Rennlist, which is a pity.. I myself have been a member on Rennlist for many years, and was also on the former incarnation of Rennlist, and would not wish for it to be tarnished. Hope you guys understand my concerns.
I love it. I stand vindicated on their unauthorized use of the PCA name.
...although I'd never heard of Goomba until Holger mentioned it. I guess they didn't really learn their lesson, but moved onto another trademark infringement.
Harold, very well stated. I actually did sign up for their site AFTER all of the mess with Phil and the boys and really had no problem with them or the site. I posted legitimate posts and received good replies.
and Phil, you need to get over the "REAL PCA" comments. Despite what your buddy Wayne may think, they do not have sole use of the letters PCA. Do you hear CPA's complaining that the Central PA region uses cpa-pca as their address? Certainly CPA letters are much more well known than PCA, especially during tax time.
Steve
Steve, you're missing the point of trademark law - see my earlier postings and you'll understand better. No, Porsche Club of America does not own the PCA letters, but they do own them in the context of sports cars and that was where the PCAformum.com ran foul of trademark law.
I didn't make the law, if you disagree with it, take it up with the US government. Legal entities spend a lot of money building equity in trademarks, which is way they are so vigorously defended when other infringe.
Patent and trademark law is very clear - it does not grant the rights to use something, but the rights to exclude others from doing so. This was a clear example of trademark infringement and these guys were on the wrong side of the line, therefore excluded from using the PCA mark.
For me it's always about right and wrong - these guys were in the wrong and reacted badly when it was politely pointed out to them that they were infringing Porsche Club of America trademarks. If they had said, "you know, you're right and we didn't realize it, but we'll fix it", then they would probably not had any issues.
Writing a disclaimer at the bottom of the page did not release them from trademark infringement any more than turning on your emergency flashers releases you from illegal parking.
Harold, I really do appreciate your concern, but don't agree that Rennlist members "made a scene on this new site" - I think we were just trying to protect the good name of Porsche Club of America (as if it needs protecting). I for one did email the real PCA (despite what Steve thinks, Porsche Club of America is the real PCA - not sure what his fixation is with that) to voice my concerns in a very civil, rational way. I don't think our comments reflected badly on Rennlist. For some reason, PCAForums' use of PCA just seemed like such a rip-off to me and others - it clearly got under my skin - probably more than it should have. But, for whatever reason, they "saw the light" and changed their website name and design. I don't think that "Club Goomba" forum is going to snag many Rennlisters or PCA members, but it might interest my kids who will think it's a video game site!
I can't believe this thread has had 2500 hits and almost 150 posts - it's turning into another "Please disregard this post" post.
Steve,
Your continued obtuseness on this issue leads me to conclude that you may be a friend or relative of the pcaforums/clubgoomba founders. I don't see any other explanation for your being so completely clueless, fixated as you are on the single notion that "PCA" can stand for more than one thing.
I'll try one last time: Yes, we know PCA can mean lots of things. But in the context of auto enthusiasm, it mean Porsche Club of America. The founders of that forum knew it, and they were trying to confuse people.
CP
Of all the acronyms and names to use for a forum, why PCA? Because they used the name (acronym) recognition and well known reputation of the PCA for their own benefit. Sounds like copyright infringement to me.
When I first saw it, there was just "Club Goomba" in a different font with the Mario Brothers character (Luigi?) sitting on the G wearing an open face racing helmet and no car pics.
Maybe they read my post and smartened up.
Oh Crap, Rob! My special order 2008 997 S with X-51 package was on that ship!
What am I gonna do now????
Oh wait.... I've got it!
Hey, 'Gant, I got a brand new 997S I can sell ya! Clean Carfax, too!
Hi Steve,
Well - since you brought it up.... There are two kinds of folks that have registered "Renn(whatever)". Remember - when I started Rennlist - there were exactly TWO "RENNwhatever" sites on the Internet - one in Germany (yes - I asked their permission and told them about the name change from "PorscheList") and a PCA Region (at that time - that region was about to start their website - but, what the heck - I asked anyway. Didn't really take too much time or effort - just trying to be professional, I guess?)
As for Loren's Renntech site - I guess Loren holds to the same degree and principles of professionalism. If it were any of your concern, which it really isn't - Loren asked if I would have any concerns about it BEFORE he set it up - as he understood it was a direct play off of the Rennlist Name, but he wanted to make his Forums more Porsche Technical in nature. I thought - and still think - his Forums are absolutely outstanding - but my point is -
the professional thing to do is ask...
Anyone want to do a search on the registered Domain Names today with "rennwhatever"
Many of them, did - in fact - ask if I'd have any problem...
Funny enough - and to your argument - there was a "Renn(namedeleted)" started by a Rennlist Member. When I asked him in private - "how did you come up with the name" - the reply was similar to the comments in this thread... "It just came to me..", "no affiliation.." "Didn't even THINK of Rennlist when I came up with that name - it just came to me.." "I can name it whatever I want..".. So - I started cruising his site....
After about two seconds - found he forgot to "copy & replace" the word "RENNLIST" in his "Terms of Service, Charter and Help sections" with his "not-Rennlist" name, including my ADMIN e-mail address!!...
That "rennwhatever" site is
Server not found
today....
I guess in my view - their are legal boundaries, sure - and I'm not a lawyer.... BUT - more importantly - we, the websites owners, are professionally bound. And - I think I can say that.. I think I've probably directly & indirectly helped launch more "renn" websites than anyone else - fact is - I encourage and work with many of them.
Well, I support and encourage those who are professional about it, anyway - probably about 80% of them.
In fact - I wish they were all like Loren and
Renntech
...
Just my $0.0000002
JD
John, I think you have nailed this. I've been thinking about what's been the key issue upsetting me (and many of us) on their name selection. It's not that it's potentially a copyright infringement (I'm no lawyer, either), it's the sheer lack of professionalism in selecting PCAForums as a moniker, and then asserting that it's sheer fantasy that any Porsche enthusiast could even question an affiliation with Porsche Club of America! It was the very first thing that came to mind when I was invited to participate on the site - as I'm sure was the case for every other Rennlister (and others) who opted to participate. Website owners are professionally bound. You and Loren are prime examples of how to do it right. Well done.
Went through all these posts quickly, but didn't see an issue addressed...
Several people at the start said they got e-mail invitations to join this new site. Where did those originating the new site get the list of Porsche people e-mails? Can such a list be bought? I guess I'm not on the list as I didn't get the engraved invitation.
Hey Phil,
Yea - I just saw this thread today - and started reading - and, since I've BTDT - sort of guessed at what bothered you, many others and myself - as well.... And - my thanks for posting back...
CAF - well - I feel a little neglected here, as I didn't get an e-mail..!!
Rennlist doesn't sell, offer for sale, for *any* use, or disclose *any* e-mail addresses registered to the site (Forums, e-mail lists, Classifieds, Registries, etc..). Never have - never will.... It's not ethical, nor professional - and frankly - we all get enough SPAM as it is...
Hmmmm??? Wonder what they are worth????? <<---- JUST KIDDING!!!!!
John D.
John,
Just to be clear, I never meant to imply that the list came from Rennlist. It's obvious that not all of us on Rennlist got the e-mail anyway. However, it does seem like they garnered a Porsche enthusiast list from somewhere, and that's why I asked.
And I have NO clue why I receive all those "Make yourself ENORMOUS" e-mails...
The snail way was for the guy to click on your name on Rennlist and send you an e-mail. Unless you opted out of receiving direct e-mails when you set your membership up. I didn't get one either which makes me suspect this method?
Nope - and I didn't take it that way either!! So - no problem! In fact - I have about 10-15 e-mail addresses registered to different parts of Rennlist (and have for years) - just so I can try to catch anyone trying to "harvest" e-mail addresses from Rennlist. I have an personal/ethical issue with that as well...
So - nope - just thought your post was a great lead-in for a public reminder of my policy.!!
And oh - about the **** SPAM??? Tell me haven't visited "Rennporn".. (Where in the world is Wayne when you need him to post???
)
Best to you!
John
Yea - BUT - it would have shown coming from the "Rennlist Forums" (my form handler does the e-mailing - and bounces from this server to my rennlist.net mail server (behind the curtain))... Since I didn't get the e-mail - nor any "ADMIN" bounce/complaints - my guess it was a direct e-mail?? But - your comment is something for me to look at!
Best to ya'!!
JD
He could have farmed one of the other forums as well, I suspect most of us have accounts on many of the enthusiast sites. Also, since he was definitely leveraging the PCA name, he might have trolled one or more PCA regions' forums.
I did not receive any email, but I've always avoided allowing people to email, preferring instead to receive private messages on the forum and going there to retrieve them. I typically trust the site operators (at least enough to register), but don't trust any site viewers unless the site is secured, which none of the enthusiast sites I know of are.
I'm here, I had to take a break from patrolling Rennlist to spend some time at the gym and keep my trim physique in shape and you're calling me out for dereliction of duty.
John, I'm glad that you chimed in on this. I had been wondering where you were on the issue. Phil and I sort of led the charge here as we both felt the same way about these guys being so unethical.
It didn't matter if it was PCA or Rennwhatever, I'm sure that both of us would have been equally annoyed by their lack of class and ethics (aside from the legal aspects) regardless of the name that they ripped off - it's just the principle of it and sometimes you just have to stand up for what's right. Some with lesser character just didn't get that.
Now, did someone say RennPorn?
... damn, what did I do with that picture of Angel.... I must have worn it out already.
I was wondering about the email thing also. I didn't get an email advertising the forum - Phil's posting was the first that I'd heard of them. I assumed at the time that the reason I didn't get an email was because that PCA doesn't have my email on file. I later realized that thought was also wrong.
You go to the gym?? Who signed you absent slip?? And to think - I was going to almost make you a Moderator. "Almost" is the operative word in that sentence...
Best to you Wayne, and seriously your thoughts (and others) mirror my own....
Now about Angel.......
If I ever decide to do "Rennporn" (LOL!!!!) - you will be not only a Moderator - but I'm thinking ADMIN would be fitting....
JD
Denied.
Muahahaha!!
Hey, you can count on us to keep things running smoothly.
My gym time is the only time of sanity in my life - 1 hour per day where I'm not at the beck and call of others and am left alone - it's heaven and I guard it closely... it has the added side effect of keeping me in good shape.... plus it gives me bad ideas for the next photos to post here.
I am wondering John because the AlfaBB forum uses the same software as Rennlist and recently on that forum a credit repair spamer started posting and not but a week or so later in the e-mail box I use there and here I start getting credit repair spam with the same message as the postings? Very suspicious and since then I have removed the option for people to send me e-mails.
I wonder if the bad guys have fiqured out how to wack the system?
In the past vBulletin has been a commonly hacked platform by Phishers. I normally find those buggers hiding out in the online photo galleries but I've found them in cracked vBulleting forums as well. Would not surprise me if there is a new exploit.
Dont' forget to mention to Gant that it has option code x91 - sonar.
I would like to think Porsche owners are just a bit harder to bull****.
Well, 911 owners anyway
I would also like to think so, but unfortunately there isn't an IQ test to buy a Porsche, just a financial test. Money and stupidity have been intertwined since the begining of time.
You know, I'm very upset about the ban since I was planning on spending a week at "Club Goomba" with the family to get some some sun, do some drinking, hang out with their lawyers, and take frequent showers. Oh well, it will have to wait until I'm reinstated. Back to my travel agent.
John D, the difference between you and this thread is that you handled the matter professionally. I'd be willing to bet that you and your friends didn't go to that site and post harrassing threads and then come to your site and insite a riot. I wasn't questioning you or this site, simply those who handled this matter in a not-so-professional manner.
Carpundit, I didn't realize that this is an "if I'm not with you, I'm with them" mentality. I've stated repeatedly that despite the name that was used, there really wasn't any law broken. You can rest assured that I have never met any of them yet, but will meet them next week at a DE event at Sebring.
and Phil, you need better choice in friends
Smankow, if not illegal what they did is certainly unethical. There is no question in my mind they where trying to silently trade off on the brand equity the Porsche Club has built in their name. Do you honestly (really, I mean honestly) believe they did not choose the name on purpose?
If you're "ok" with that slight of hand then fine. However, I believe John, Phil and others have an equal right not to be "ok" with it.
Hi Steve,
Point taken. However - what I'm about to post is my opinion only...
If you look at "Porsche Club of America" - their "internet presence" is, indeed "
PCA
.org". To get an e-mail/announcement of a pca***.com" site, and whether intentional or by sheer "coincidence" - had many believing it was the PCA Forums (coincidentally "pcaforums.com"). In fact - this entire thread is entitled "What's with the new PCA Forum?" and it wasn't until the 9th post in this thread that someone observed is WASN'T
the PCA
Forum.
To explain the vitriolic criticisms posted here - and in looking at many of the first posts to that not-PCA site - many thought, indeed - and again whether intentionally or by sheer "coincidence" on the URL naming convention - many folks *thought* they were posting to the "PCA Forums" (pcaforums.com). I'm guessing folks don't like to be "duped" or misled - again, of course - intentionally or by sheer "coincidence". So, I do understand the criticisms and "riot" that ensued. I believe it was even more "confusing" that the entire repertoire of "car forums" on that "not affiliated with Porsche Club of America" - was the fact that the ONLY Marque represented was, indeed - "Porsche" - and the graphics to reaffirm that dedication to that single Marque.
An appropriate analogy would be if you announced your new site - "rennlistforums.com" (if Rennlist didn't have forums), sent out e-mails/invites - and "forgot" to mention you are not affiliated with "rennlist". Coincidence? Maybe if it was a Honda site in format and design only - and only Honda owners got the invites - then, it *might* be only minimally plausible, in my opinion - and certainly as it only applies to the Internet and Domain Names....
Anyway - while I understand your point, I too - understand peoples frustration and disappointment with being led to believe it's THE PCA Forum - when in fact - it has nothing to do with either PCA or Porsche Club of America.
Sorry for beating a dead horse - but, I wanted to share with you my thoughts and opinion.
My Best to you,
John
Thanks Steve..!
As well - I appreciate your views and comments. I think all sides were represented on this, so if folks don't mind - I'm going to close off this thread... If some of you want to keep it open - please PM me, OK??
My best to you Steve, and thanks to all...
John
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
