Opinions Wanted - A5 v C4S

Hi all, Long time lurker looking for some experienced input. I am a longtime Audi fan for year round transportation, current ride is a 99 A4 2.8 Manual and its a tank in the snow with the right tires. When the time comes I initially considered a 2008-2009 A5 V6 Manual as a logical choice. But looking at prices of 2003 era C4/S they fall into about the same range with similar mileage. I have seen videos on Youtube of C4S's in the snow, but they were short and not very informative (or it looked like the car was a 2WD and not AWD) So my question is how would they compare for inclement weather given snow tires on each? Has anyone done a similar comparison before? Thanks for any input

I had a few audis A4s, Coupe and A6 - loved them, amazing AWD system. If you're talking about long drive into ski country, I'd take the Audi. Is it a daily driver? Where are you located? The C4S is very good in the snow - even in some deeper crud (it's fun to throw around)- but even with "thinner" winter tires, is still easy to shoot the back end out. I felt much more confident in blizzards and on ice in the A4 with my Nokia Hak 10's than in the C4S - but I have not spent nearly as much time in the C4S in really deep snow (that's what I have a Volvo V70R for). The C4S has been MUCH more capable in inclement weather than I initially gave it credit for though. The A5 is beautiful, my friends wife has an S5 convertible - and they love it, she traded from a Boxster S as they wanted a back seat and awd.

Bad Tag, you need to talk to Capt. Obvious. He is a Audi fanatic, and has a (I believe) C4S, so he should be able to help immensely. I had a B6 S4 a few years back, but I live in Florida, so I won't be able to help with any pertinent information regarding snow. That said, all thing being equal, I had the best of what Audi had to offer in that variant, and love my 996 quite a bit more. There is more of a connected feel when driving, and as a DIY fan, it's a very easy car to work on. GL in your search, DS

My buddy has a 991 S 2wd in wisconsin as a daily driver. You just need to get snow tires. They get alot of snow in germany and the 911 has heavy weight in the back with a rear engine. I had a S4 and if it was me I would go for C4S an Audi is an Audi and there quality is more on par with VW than porsche. my 2 cents.

I personally have owned 5 Audi's: A4's, S4, A6's. All of them were fantastic in the snow and I never feared any weather, ever. I live in Pittsburgh where we get all four seasons and again for the climate here, the Audi rules. I currently own a C4S and I drive it mostly every day with the exception of snowy days so I do have a bit of hesitancy there. As for the over all quality, that is a tough one to compare. Either way, as you likely already know, plan on $1000 for any time you need to take either car to the shop. In the end, I say it depends on your climate. Lots of snow/rain - go for the Audi. Otherwise, I would go for the C4S any day! Good luck!

Another point to consider: The A5 will continually depreciate for some while whereas the C4s has already hit close to bottom.

You will love the C4S. It handles like a dream. If you drive it to the limits as I do, you will be more than pleased with it. Actually I havent driven mine in a few weeks because it keeps raining.

I drove rs5 ... Engine is amazing .. But still does not feel as good to drive as 911. Audi is good looking and capable in snow .. But not without water pump, window regulator and other annoying problems ..and will continue to depreciate. Porsche is a special car .. Will be fun on track .. Less depreciation .. Higher regular maintenance unless you DIY and sometimes subject to very expensive failures but in general reliable . I would not want to use as dd in snow however ..get a beater for that ....

Thanks for the reply's everyone. Input is much appreciated. I should say that I live in the Albany region of NY and we tend to get a fair amount now and then (though this year is proving to be light, like last year). I do ski but not every weekend and then mostly in VT so no long treks to middle of nowhere typically. This would be serving the purpose of an all year round car, and I do love driving in the snow. Have done several ice events in NH and can never seem to make it home on a snowy night without a detour to an empty parking lot. The A4 will go through more powder than you will be able to see through. That said, given the nature of a C4S I would expect some compromise on the pure snow going capability in return for a more rewarding driving experience. Audi's have always been more fun in the snow than in the dry =) Right now I am just trying to gauge how much I would gain/lose on both fronts. That is a good point about the depreciation on the C4S. And I do as much maint as I can short of dropping an engine or something so that also helps. I know the key issues are the IMS and the RMS, so those would be budgeted for. Thanks again for the responses. Maybe Capt Obvious will chime in ?

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Post the use of TC and/or VSC (PSM) (~2000) but prior to the 997.2 the C4, C4S, had NO F/awd functionality, even, mostly with those nanny features turned off. The VC's of that era did not stiffen quickly enough to be of any real help with preventing wheelspin/slip at the primary, rear, drive wheels. In point of fact some level of rear wheelspin/slip was actually REQUIRED to force the stiffening of the VC front drive coupling. TC, obviously, if on, would always act to prevent the VC from ever providing increased coupling. That's why almost all modern automatic type, no driver intervention, "awd" systems have abandoned the VC as a viable solution and adopted the electromagnetically actuated clutch. Oh, and be sure that any Audi you purchase isn't primarily FWD, as most are. Those can turn dangerous, possibly HAZARDOUS(***), in the blink of an eye on wintertime roadbed conditions. *** VW has developed a new safety feature (yes, yet another "nanny") for their FWD models equpped with manual transmissions. Should the driver downshift far enough to result in so much engine braking that wheel skid results, would result, the new feature will automatically uprev the engine as a preventative safety measure. Since Audi is division of VW....

The impression I am getting is that the C4S with traction control off is essentially a RWD car, is this correct ? So in a sense, turning traction control on is like pushing a 4WD button, but that also kills any chance to have fun Is there any known changes that can be done to the VC? Thicker viscosity fluid maybe to provide a lower threshold of engagement ? For the record the 2008-2009 A5 would use the 5th Gen of Quattro which has the Torsen type 3 (Type "C") centre differential, 40:60 'default' split front-rear, Automatically apportioning up to 80% of the torque to one axle using a 4:1 high-biased center differential. With the aid of ESP, up to 100% of the torque can be transferred to one axle.

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No, the opposite. Say you get stuck in snow. TC will prevent rear wheels from spinning. Turn off TC and rear wheels can spin freely, if they spin fast enough then it will engage the fronts at more then 5% power that the front wheels normally get.

I've had quite a few Audis and I'm a huge fan of the brand and their cars. I also love my C4S. I haven't driven my C4S in the snow, but the AWD 996s are known for being darn good snow cars. Personally, I love the A5s and they're one of my favorite cars on the road right now; but in the end I bought a C4S if that tells you anything.

I know this for a fact. With my C4S on jack stands all 4 wheels do spin if put into gear. I assume because there is little resistance but it tells me the AWD is working.

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Finally agreeing with the K man Also with PSM even if you turn it off it is still there in the back ground.

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That's cause there is 5% power being driven to the front all the time. PSM does not kick in and brake the wheels until the threshold of allowed amount of spin is broken.

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I t may be it the background but it can't be triggered unless the brake is applied. It can be fully defeated by pulling the ABS fuse.

The Mayans had the date wrong. The world will indeed end today.

Jumper have you pulled the fuse and tried this?

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Yes, pulling the fuse will also cause your spoiler to deploy and not retract. ABS doesn't work as well. Also PSM and ABS is deactivated when a wheel sensor detects an issue. It till deactivated the PSM/ABS and give you a warning msg saying it. This happened to me after lowering my car. I had to have the wheel sensor calibrated.

Hi Bad Tag, I'm going to guess that the A5 is better in snow based on a few observations. 1. It's higher off of the ground. Clearance is critical. 2. Take a look at this thread on Renntech: http://www.renntech.org/forums/topic...-work/?p=58986 3. Also, keep in mind that Quattro is generally thought of as one of the best AWD systems on the market. Not that the Porsche system isn't decent but the version of Quattro in a '08-09 A5 is representative of technology that is 4+ years newer than anything in a 996 C4S (which used the TT's technology; and the TT first went on sale in 2000. I don't know if Porsche made any material improvements or changes in the TT's AWD system over the next 4 years.) Unfortunately, I can't provide any real side by side comparison. My C4S spends its Winters in a garage but I used to use my '02 TT Quattro (which actually used a Haldex system instead of the Quattro's Torsen differential) year round in CT. My TT was a blast to drive in the snow especially with snow tires and I've never seen/heard people complain about the inadequacy of the Haldex system in a TT the way I've seen/read about inefficiencies in Porsche's AWD system like those in the Renntech thread above. Do a search on Rennlist and you'll uncover a number of similar themed threads. I love my C4S and I am not trying to dissuade you from considering it. I just don't think they're comparable to a much newer A5 from an AWD or "practicality" perspective. They were designed for much different purposes. -Eric

When I was going to get a 996, I decided to get a 4wd and some snow tires and use it all year round. But then reconsidered based on all the salt on the road and grit over winter, and how it beats up your paint. So I ended up buying a 40th (great RWD summer fun), and with the money I saved on not buying a new set or wheels and snow tires bought a high mile A6 4.2 for a winter beater and to leave at the airport when I travel, to me it�s the best of both worlds. My 911 stays in great condition (no salt encrusted carpets), and in winter the A6 will go anywhere and if it take a few knocks it wont stress me out.

Eric - thanks for the link. I read through that particular one and it has some great info. My thinking would be that I could get 911 (which is high on the to get list) and be able to enjoy it all year, plus I just dont have any room right now for A5 + a 911 I completely understand the concept that these are 2 different approaches to the AWD concept. I wouldnt expect the C4S to go through quite as much as say an A4 which is more utilitarian in nature v the performance approach of the C4S. I'm just not willing to give up AWD for those few times we get a decent snow...its just too much fun channeling Ken Block and Walter Rohl =) One thing people did seem to mention on RennList is the failure of the VC. If this part has a limited life span I would be conscious of burning it out every time I went out in the white stuff. rossclifford - As far as salt, proper precautions would be taken for the interior and with regular attention the paint on the A4 looks as good as the day I bought it. No body rust at 162K is pretty good for a NY based car. One thing that I have found great for other components/fasteners, linkages etc is motorcycle chain lube. Specifically PJ1 Blue Label, really helps prevent rust on the exposed bolts. Goes on thin them forms a film, very effective.

No problem. I get not giving up AWD despite the relatively warm Winters we've recently seen. Watching people get stuck in my driveway with their RWD cars wearing "all season" rubber over the years has sold me on its value. When I bought my C4S about a year and a half ago, I initially thought about selling my S60R and using the C4S year round. I went through a similar throught process as rossclifford but instead of selling the Volvo for two used cars I just kept the Volvo. With 300hp, AWD and 4 doors it satisfied my Winter needs and provides more practicality if I ever need it. How many miles do you have on your A4? I don't know your financial situation or the condition of the Audi but can you turn that car into your Winter beater? My Volvo still has well under 50K miles on it and I'm the original owner so I know it is well maintained. Your situation might be much different. -Eric

Eric makes a great point, if you financially don’t need to sell the A4 run that in winter. The savings in not having another set or Porsche wheels & winter tires to get will pay for a few years winter/summer storage if space is an issue. You can try it for a year or 2 then make your mind up. Back to the origianl question, get the Porsche, I have been deliberating on it for years, pulled the trigger last year, wish I had done it earlier. They are brilliant cars

Eric/Ross - A4 actually is the winter car at the moment. I have another car and motorcycle that are fair weather only and I cant justify yet another vehicle that doesnt get used all year round. Just dont have the space right now for another car, but that would be ideal.. So given that restriction, replacing the A4 is the only option. Theoretically the C4/S made sense, but watching several videos online of them in the snow with only the real wheels spinning has given me another path to investigate as to how effective the AWD actually is. At any rate, thanks for all the info. If I do go 996 I know I will be in good company =)

Doing a quick search on Ebay and came across this. Thought it was worth a post Anyone else feel the need for speed ? haha http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FEEL-...item2326e8a59c

Nice car.

I personally liked the description - "Must be the closest thing to flying"

I've been driving Audi Quattro's for the past 27 years as DD's, and acquired my '02 C4 cab 6 years ago. The Audi's will give you more confidence in the snow, but the P-car will be more fun. In the summer, it's all P-car. The 996 C4 should always be driven w/ PSM enabled while on public roads IMO. Turn it off for fish-tailing thrills. For confidence-inspiring power slides on a snowy canyon road I'll take my S8 any day. At 160k mi, your A4 is a disposable winter beater - it may hurt to park it outside in the winter but I would hang onto it, especially if your ski trip involves more than 1 passenger. My $0.02...

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Sorry, but I'll bet the Audi "AWD" will soon also go to the 997.2, Cayenne, and VW type R/awd system. Electromagnetically, linearly controlled (PWM) driveline coupling clutch. Beats anything else out there. ZERO engine torque to the front should the yaw sensor and steering wheel rotational position sensor signal equation indicate such. 50% to the front (assuming equal F/R tire CSA) but only under HARD straight ahead acceleration. *** The base idea behind a VC coupling is that the fluid will normally remain thin/flaccid and therefore not couple very much drive torque. Then under special conditions, conditions that result in HEATING the fluid, it thickens thereby increasing the level of coupling. Use a "base" thicker VC fluid and the latent, flaccid, coupling level rises according, possibly enough to compromise the life cycle of driveline components. Heating the fluid increases viscosity..what kind of magicians hat trick is this? No trick at all, heating the fluid would normally result in expansion of the fluid volume. But in the case (no pun itended) of our VC, the fluid is within a hermetically sealed case of a FIXED volume, so the effect is to THICKEN the fluid..

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Wrong approach. TC can be used to indicate that the roadbed is slipperier than the driver might be aware. Once TC activates, turn it off IMMEDIATELY and then use the old tried and true technique of throttle feathering to produce wheel drive torque right up to the "cusp" of wheelspin/slip, not beyond. If that tehnique doesn't get you moving then next as traction, tire chains, or call for a tow. In cold weather your VC is unlikely to tighten up at all and NEVER for an extended period.

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A 997.2 C4S...?

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Yes, but now have a friend hold one front wheel stationary while you hold the other and note how easy that is....engine IDLE!

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...

Guys, Appreciate all the feedback here. I am loosing the fight to resist the allure of the 996. The more I learn and hear about these cars I am getting comfortable with the wintertime abilities. Given that we have had 2 weeks of actual snow here in the NE, I dont think I need the full capability of the Audi system. And for the rest of the year, I get to enjoy a car I have been wanting for longer than I can remember. Now the search begins =)

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Stick in the mud alert! https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ts-in-oil.html Sadly, considering the purchase of an A5 or S5 very soon. Don't want to tromp on your dreams, but do want you to be careful as you look.

On your advice we tried this. Unfortunately it broke his arm. Hes sending you the bill. (internet humor disclaimer) But seriously, what is the OP trying to do? They are two completely different cars for different purposes. Get a Jeep Rubicon if you want a true 4wd.

Quix - I read through the beginning of your first post. Sorry to hear of the news. Understand how frustrating that can be when you do everything you can to prevent it. That said, I will keep it in mind when I search. That said, if you do go the Audi route I can give you some points to look for in an A5/S5 from my initial research Krazy - my initial foray was not to compare how much can a C4S go through, simply how much of a change it would be from what I have been used to. Its easy to get spoiled with Quattro when it comes to inclement weather.