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YOUR RESEARCHSQUEAL - help
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
So using the tips on page 2 from Redridge, and the advise from Tippy to lower the motor, i successfully swapped the AOS.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
(actually I used the 1/4" drive on everything except the wheels and motor mounts...
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OK, this is a link to my poor quality vid....I am not sure what is squealing. What I "think" I know is...
Same sound with clutch in or out
seams to be rpm related, gets louder the faster it goes
does go away, sometimes in a couple minutes, sometimes longer
Got it on video, so its not just the noise in my head
seems to be in the area where the motor and tranny connect, not the rear of the motor, or front of the tranny.
height is about center of the motor
Its freakin me out and making me vote in polls about panic relationships to car issues.
would like some thoughts from my friends as to what to do....OH and from you guys too
Thanks - no really.... THANKS!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZxQR...eature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hmhiHKMw6c
Could be a pulley.
If that is not it, check the Options Sticker under the front hood lid to see if you have the code DLV. If you have that code, that means you got the DELIVERANCE option which means your car will squeal like a pig!
good one Tim! haha....or maybe the MIC option? Where you have a mouse running in a metal carousel that needs a lil WD-40? That's how I'd describe it.
J
That it goes away makes me think it's a belt, odd that you can't hear it where...well...the belts are. Could just be the engine forcing the sound out a certain way.
Try this, get an old hose from a vacuum or something, then put one end to your ear and use it as a huge stethoscope. That's helped me a number of times trying to find squeaks and slaps and clacks.
I'll 2nd what Tippy said - sound could be a dying Air Oil Separator cavitating your oil supply!
If you take of the oil filler and the car dies, or you put your hand over the open oil filler tube, and it get's sucked down hard by a vacuum, then that's a sure sign.
When one died on my wife's 986, it sounded like a whale falling from 30,000 feet!!
Sorry, was napping
Now that I got to see the video (cant view at work), I am really sure that is the AOS (Air Oil Separator) making the noise.
When they fail, they sound just like a belt squealing and the fact he went exactly to point where the AOS resides with the camera, I dont think it could be anything else.
OK... cap off while running (warmed up w/o squeak when I got home from work)
Car ran better...the idle lifted a couple hundred up and the car was running smooth. I covered the oil fill tube with my hand and could feel suction... a fair amount...idle would drop, open it up and comes up again.
I think you are right....now how tough a job is it? can I do it? List of parts... and can I drive it while waiting for the repair/parts? Are there other things that "while I'm in there" would be good to do sinice I have loads of miles on my baby
Thanks guys, this is a better feeling than I had before I posted it
TICKING SOUND???........Wayne
Yeah, seriously. I don't know why I couldn't hear the squeak, but I could hear a noise that sounded like a diesel-like ticking/clatter that I don't ever recall hearing on my car. I could hear it at all times in both videos.
I dont take that cap off much, in fact that is only the third time I have had it off... it seemed to be a little stuck on when I twisted it.. (not sure if that happened on the other times or not)
The amount of vacuum was in my opinion significant
Thanks
If the AOS is leaking, you can get cavitation (air bubbles) in the oil - which is not good.
Access to the AOS is tricky on the 996 - to give you an idea, here's the AOS on the 986 I mentioned, outlined in red. As you can imagine, in the 996 this is difficult to access.
If I were you I'd be handing to an indy to confirm diagnosis, and make the repair if required.
Sounds like it then.
It should only have a very, very light pull on your hand. If it feels like an average vacuum cleaner, it has failed. The diaphram has ruptured and is letting full vacuum come through the AOS.
As cdodkin posted, it looks similar but the round part where the diaphram resides sits vertical and flat with the back of the motor.
I have a pic of one at home I will post.
There is also a school of thought that the excess vacuum in the crank case can be a leading cause of RMS displacement/leaking - yet to be proven, but worth noting.
I'm not sure I follow you but here is my theory.
The AOS fails so vacuum from the intake is pulled straight through the AOS (through it's ruptured diaphram) from the crankcase.
So, there is a vacuum on the inside of the RMS in turn which in nature is trying to draw air from the outside of the motor.
This should actually inhibit oil going out of the motor when the engine is running with a blown AOS.
Not proven, just a theory.
But, an engine with high blow-by (pressurized crankcase) will have more oil leaks.
I think.... not sure what side the RMS is installed from... what he is saying is that the suction moves the actual seal from where it should be, this in turn causes it to leak....maybe after the suction is removed or the motor is turned off
right?
just my thoughts too
Its a diy... but a pain the ***... allow yourself 10-12 hours. I would pull the belt of off and check for loose rollers...
Step 1 - remove air box, throttle body and plenum's - no pics of this as it is pretty self explanatory....be careful with the vacuum lines especially if the car is older as the plastic lines become very frail, i am replacing a lot of them because they cracked so easily, which is kind of a good thing as i wont have vacuum leaks later on
step 2 - once you remove the plenums you can reach back and feel the oil separator with your hand, fee around and get a good bearing of where everything is by feel, look at your new unit and get a visual of where the 2 bolts are on the oil separator. once you locate them jack up the car and relocate the 2 bolts from underneath the car, you should be able to remove the 2 bolts with a 10mm deep socket and wrench.
step 3 - now that the 2 bolts have been remove the oil separator can be wiggled, which is important because now you can wiggle it out far enough to get a socket to the last bolt on the driver side intake, you can now remove the drivers side intake, a pic is below so you can see the bolt hoes, there are 6 of them one on each side of the runner
Step 4 - once you have removed the passenger side upper intake you can have a clear sight of the oil separator, pic is below, you can now remove the 2 water lines, the vacuum line that ran to the throttle body, you are only left with 2 hoses connected at this point in time and a pressed in fitting
Step 5 - this step you need to preform very carefully so not to damage anything else or cut the wrong thing - take a knife and cut the rubber belows, this is a ton easier than trying to take off the clamps, but there is some risk here, after that is separated you should be able to bring the unit up just enough to remove the last hose. and the bellow and clamp that is left on the engine
step 6 - mount all the hoses in the new unit and press the unit into the pressed fitting on the engine, it is recommended to use screw type hose clamps to make install easier
step 7 reinstall intake
Step8 - bolt the 2 bolts in the oil separator from the wheel well
step 9 - mount plenums and throttle body and air box and you should be done!
Which is why I suggested taking the car to an indy for diagnosis - wasting 10-12 hours of effort to find the AOS is ok would suck!
Assuming you even wanted to take the task on in the first place.
redridge - did you pull the rear tire off? It makes it way easier to get to throught the control arms.
Second, you can lower the motor down on the crossmember to gain about 4-6 more inches of space above the plenum.
nope... theres' enough room to get your hands in there but... you are working blind, its all feel at this game.
didnt do that either, I used a flexible screwdriver to get to the clamps of the plennum, worked great...
the biggest wall I had was the SC and the belt, tons of bends...
All very good tips you have though... will keep this in mind!
Might also try taking the belt off and BRIEFLY running the motor. Pulley noises can sometimes reverb back through the motor if bad enough. Could also be a clutch throwout bearing.
are there any belts or pulleys on the front side of the motor (tranny side?)
I thought about throwout bearing... but clutch in or out sounds the same, plus this vacuum in the crank case doesnt sound like a good thing....
Cory, drop the motor.... you make it sound like its easy???? That sounds a bit scary to me unless I had a special jack to place under it while the car was on stands... starts to get complicated and I am limited on space around the car while I am working....
No, pull the airbox out and the belt is right there. throwout bearings always have pressure on them clutch in or out. I would first eliminate the pulley noise before calling it the seperator.
Mine did too for about the first 3 weeks.
Saw you were following my squealing thread there for a while. Some good tips on eliminating other sources of similar noises.
Here's the link: (search won't bring it up because I had a typo on "Squeal")
Squeal on startup
IIRC,
1) run engine without belt on to eliminate pulleys (as previously mentioned here)
2) unplug secondary air pump and run engine
I can't access youtube at work, so can't compare the noises. But judging by where you described the noise as coming from, it could easily be the throwout bearing.
Take 'er into an indy to have it checked out. When I took mine in I told him that I assumed it was a throughout bearing and he had it diagnosed before I had time to grab a coffee and come back.
It actually is very easy, it is only 2 bolts. Your only hanging the motor down at most about 4-6 inches.
But first, I agree that
confirming
the AOS is the issue would be in first order.
If it is, what redridge wrote and what I posted below in another thread (except removing motor mounts from the chassis) should make the job a little easier if you do it yourself.
Here ya go for hanging the motor down a little for easier access:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ferrerid=44749
Tippy,
On a C4, How far can you drop the motor w/o affecting the tranny and drive shaft to the front diff? Prob have to disconnect the shaft I guess... what about on a C2?
I dont know about a C4.
I have only dropped my engine down on my Tiptronic and I asked '99 if he knew if you could drop the manuals the same way without issue. He said yes and I remember a Porsche Tech telling me you could drop the motor down on manuals without issue too. So, I am not taking responsibility if this is wrong information.
Look at the distance from the engine case to the crossmember, that is all you are dropping the motor by.
Dont worry, the fuel lines, vauum lines, and everything else have enough to give but just take it slow with the jack.
The engine will rest on one of its' case bolts on top of the crossmember.
OK, so I took the belt off and the lower idler pulley (closest to the floor) seems to have some roughness and squeeking when I rotate it.
i took it off and tried to lube it a little (not too successful) and now I dont know what to do next.... IF this is the trouble, its a darn easy fix, but in order to isolate it I think I should start it up........
Q: Can I run the motor with no belt? (I know i would have to hook up the MAS and intake tube to the throttle body)
This seems to be the only way to know for sure if I have found it.... HELP I have it torn apart now!! (hoping this is the problem... really really really hoping!)
those rollers are cheap... forgot how cheap. Call Suncoast [phone removed].
As for starting the motor w/o belt.... As long as its a very short run. But Im not positive on this. But, its like snapping a belt right?
Yea, I am thinking they aren't much but I dont want to dig in here again after I replace it to keep looking for the noise
Ugg... I agree, BUT want to be sure before I go down that road.
yup, I took a chance, figured they break sometimes and dont take out engines.... ran OK, had to hook up the MAF to do so.
good news bad news...
runs ok
wasn't my squeal - keep looking AND replace that pulley
Yea!
nope, all felt good, no drips or wiggles... its a nice motor they give you when you buy one of these things!!
Thinking throw-out bearing... any thoughts on how to check?
Also while I have the airbox out, what filter should I be using... something with some NOISE to it when I hit the loud pedal!!!
I would think any throwout bearing noise would go away with the clutch depressed.
As for air filters - depends how long you want your MAF to last..
Do a search on K&N and dead MAF
Ed,
Do yourself a favor and stick with the OEM air filter set up. BTW - if you decide not to stay with the factory set up, don't say I didn't warn you.
But Daddy,
I want a loud Porsche too, and I want it NOW ! ! ! !
WAAAAAA
I have to mod these cans when I get some spare time... that seems to be the only way I am going to get SOME noise w/o getting TOO MUCH noise
Thanks for the advise, I know Redridge uses an aftermarket filter... Evoms or something maybe its the one that starts with B_ _ (three letters) I will stick with stock
LOL
I have a really long time friend and we used to drive old Bugs... his always ran like hell but had great big steroes...Everytime it started making more noises he would add some speakers and say... "There, instant tune-up" and off he would go
It's one way of getting past the issue.
actually until i read your post i had forgotten i had put in the gillette cap mod. i've been running it since last august. just as an FYI, no CEL, issues, etc. in hot summer weather or in the current cold winter.
UPDATE:
So using the tips on page 2 from Redridge, and the advise from Tippy to lower the motor, i successfully swapped the AOS.
TIPS I learned the stupid way:
- get the car up in the air with jackstands uned the rear jack points.
- remove drivers rear wheel
-lower motor as Tippy linked to
-buy intake gaskets when ordering the AOS (otherwise the local stealer will charge double
-Cut water lines off once the unit is out, easier than messing with those clamps..replace clamps with screw type.
-dont use the lower bellows clamp, replace it with screw type (this can be done as the very last step, so leave it off for the install, access from the tranny side is ample enough to put the new clamp on.)
-remove bolts from the wheel well with a really long 1/4" ratchet and 10mm socket... easy shot thru there. (actually I used the 1/4" drive on everything except the wheels and motor mounts... I have about 5 of the 6" extensions.. they came in very handy and the small size ratchet made more room for my hands)
-stuff rags in the intake holes - dont leave them open - remove rags when you are ready to re-install intake.
-getting that stupit tube in the hole is a bitch!
now for my squeal:
After new AOS I still feel quite a bit of vacuum when I remove the oil cap and the motor runs very differant with the cap off??? is this normal ?
ALSO - there is a vent tube that runs from the lower passenger side of the throttle body, over the throttle body and to the drivers side. this is connected to some sort of a device with an electrical connection. then goes ....? That little electrical thing "CLICKS" to beat hell.... really annoying.. what and why does it do that?
and last -
while under the car for the first time (since I had it jacked plenty high) I could hear the squeal perfectly....Its NOT the engine. It's the tranny or clutch for sure.
SO- I thought I would change the tranny fluid and see what it holds for tales (anyone have a DIY and advise on what fluid to buy and how much I would be greatful),
Then if that doesnt show anything... I guess its out with the tranny and look/replace clutch and bearing (hope it's not a tranny bearing!!!)
Thoughts?
My '03 takes 2.7L, oil from dealer and they sell by litre bottle (or quart I don't remember). Yours should be similar. Just like other cars with one dain plug and one fill plug. Super easy DIY. I changed mine at 23k miles and it's pitch black. Good luck.
The saga continues.... (sure I have a bad clutch but... this has been fun)
I thought it would be a good idea to change tranny fluid. So my 10 year old and I rolled under the car and drained it out...(note fill plug was VERY TIGHT!) then started to look for new oil....
OMG!!! How much $ !!
So my local Indy show carries Swepco 210 in bulk....i ran down and picked up a pump ($6.99) and then needed a clean gallon jug.... nothing... I found that distilled water jugs look close, I bought a gallon, poured the water into the washer fluid resuvour and ta-da... claen bottle. Rinced with alcohol, then acetone, then dried with hair dryer.
Perfect... Ran down to the indy shop and picked up a gallon of the good stuff, ($79) came home and filled her up.
WOW... a 10 minute test drive and I am shocked how much easier it goes into gear... Sometimes a small change can really have a nice effect on the drivabillity of the car.... If you are having issues getting into gear when cold, this is a nice, simple, way to make things better....
Thanks for reading this mess!
Ed,
You have literally gotten "into" this car and I applaud you for that. I am impressed!!
Speaking of fluids, don't forget to change your blinker fluid and grease your muffler bearings this spring. Both of these need to be done at least once per year.
CEL for low blinker fluid...? shoot... I just replaced that socket (from DC Auto) but I installed it dry...we may FINALLY know why I have this squeal !
as for "gettin into it" I tell people there are 3 ways to enjoy a Porsche (1) Drive it (2) wash / clean / detail it (3) maintain / repair it ... all 3 are very satisfying in thier own way
I try to be well rounded about all 3 too
