Misfire and knocking

Hi - My pcodes are P0300, P0302, P0305 and P0306. But the catch is that there is a knocking sound that does not exist in idle but appears @1500rpm and above. It seems to appear from the right hand side of the engine? Model 1999 Carrera 2 Any help appreciated. Thanks

Sounds like a bad lifter

coils, plugs.... sound like you need a tune up. Whats your mileage?.... and, Oh Tim?

Misfire cause a knock? I guess that makes sense. Checking coil packs and plugs should be easy

Mileage is 82k. yes Tim!

cool, will check and post. Thank you everyone

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Damn Ferd, I was asleep in bed when the "No Pic Newbie" alarm when off. This couldn't have waited 'til morning? < yawn > OK, here goes.... KST, Welcome to Rennlist. It is customary for Newbies to post pics of their car. So here is your official Rennlist "Newbie Initiation." Come on Newbie, post the @#$%^&* pics! I'm going back to bed!

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I think the OP is Tim too?

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glad the old gaurds are still pulling their shifts.... those newbies are everywhere.

thank you for the initiation!!! BTW the knocking turned into a rattle and is from the right side of the engine???

Thanks for the pic. How long does the rattle last, just on start up or all the time?

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Misfires from cylinders from both banks? And a knocking sound. I hope I'm wrong but just in case, sit down: IMS bearing has failed. I'd advise no more running engine, even at idle, until you've had the noise diagnosed by a qualified tech. Even if it turns out to not be an IMS any starting or running the engine can do more harm, more damage, and could render a relatively minor problem ( like a failed cam chain tensioner/guide ) a very serious one if the cam chain should skip/jump some teeth on any of its sprockets, or worse break outright. Trouble is a shop's probably going to want to do a compression test -- vs. pulling the engine and the cam covers and other covers to examine the various cam chain drives and tensioners, guides, etc. -- which can cause a problem if cam chain skips/jumps one or more teeth or just simply breaks. Even at cranking speed pistons and valves making contact can do serious maybe even fatal engine damage. Best of luck and I hope I'm wrong and its coil packs and something like a water pump making the knocking noise or something more benign than an IMS rattling around. Sincerely, Macster.

Ouch! The rattle is not there at idle, but starts the moment you depress the pedal. You can hear the rattle at anything above 1500rpm.

Try simple stuff like check engine air filter, clean MAF, change spark plugs. You never know where and what the car has been into.

This could be something minor or it could be something serious. I'd suggest stopping diagnostics and towing it to a shop. I mean it's probably just a lifter not seeing oil or a bad spark plug but it could be a chain tensioner or something, we can't say. So just be cautious with it.

Its in the shop, got it towed just to be safe. They will let me know by tonight. Thank you so much for the help.

not to scare the OP, but IF the IMS bearing is toast and the motor still runs... is it something that can be repaired or does the motor have to come apart/be replaced? My prayer are with you, and I hope its a misfire in conjunction with a bad cat that is rattling due to the misfires of a bad coil......... was it wet/raining when it started? were you driving? just started the car? came on slowly / suddenly?

Possibly engine is salvagable if IMS failure. Around 2 years ago I came across a 996 engine torn down in a dealership and talking to the tech and taking pics he told me IMS failed -- though at the time the owner didn't know an IMS form a hole in the ground -- and the owner shut the engine off right away. Tech told me that Porsche had recently changed its procedure and allowed partial engine teardown to ascertain the extent of the collateral damage from the failed IMS. In this engine's case besides the very obvious failed bearing, which ruined the IMS, and a broken cam chain guide/tensioner rail, the scavenge pumps in the heads were free of any metal debris and other checks found no signs the IMS bearing failure had done any other harm so the engine was deemed rebuildable. So, it is possible that even if the IMS bearing fails if the failure is noticed soon enough and the engine shut off and not run again -- at all -- that it could be possible the engine is salvagable. Engine is removed from the car and partially torn down and if damage found to be confined to IMS and less critical areas of engine then a rebuild -- just replacing the IMS and the damage directly arising from this failure -- is possible. Not cheap, if one's paying for it, but cheaper than a new/replacement engine. Sincerely, Macster.

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It was dry weather and I had been driving for about 60 miles. The engine light came on and I stopped the car. Started driving to the shop and the light went off, drove another 20 miles to the shop and the light started to blink. Stopped the car and had it towed to the shop. They said that they will let me know later today. Will post for advice. Thank you

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I didnt want to scream it, Becasue I have really been the grim reaper on IMS. But I think macaster has a very valid point. Knocking, missing... Sounds like valve timing is way off

It also wouldn't be the first time a bad batch of gas from a station went out full of water and gunk. I don't doubt failure but the weakest tuned area is the section that will result in symptoms arrising like missfiring and such. I hope it wasn't a failure of the engine.

any update?

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Have you been driving your 911 since its operation Kyle? Is it what you expected with regards to power and handling compared to your 928?

Thanks for asking! I have only driven it about 80 miles since the op. Weather has been in the pooper. The 80 I did drive it I couldnt really do anything becasue of road conditions. I am going to have an alignment done to it before I make any real judgement calls.

KST.... scooby doo, where are you?

Sorry for the delay... there was no response from the shop yesterday as they had not got to my car yet. I just spoke to them and they said that the sound has not (disappeared) "Its not doing it now" is what he said. So there is no rattling sound anymore. Help!! Do i drive Do i have them open it up to check Do i ???

So, did the shop take it over 1500RPM's as you described or just get in it and start it up? Is this a Porsche shop?

Yes the rattling is completely gone. Even over 1500rpm. Should I get the plugs, coils and cam solenoid brackets changed, just to be safe. Thanks

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Noises are very hard to diagnose by long distance and with no audio clip. One car engine's IMS bearing death rattle is another car engine's loose heat shield. Did you convey to the service manager the circumstances under which the noise appeared? It is very important that you do so, and that you ensure the service manager writes this info down accurately. Sometimes they have a habit of pre-judging a noise complaint -- cause they hear (no pun) of so many -- and tend not to pay as much attention as they should. Plus service manager or service writer will not be directly involved in trying to reproduce the noise, this falls onto a tech and he is getting the info second hand. In some cases you need to make a list of steps: 1) Engine off X number of hours. 2) Normal cold start procedure. Transmission in neutral/park, clutch depressed, A/C off, radio, lightsoff , etc. 3) Start engine and let it find its own rpm. No throttle or shifting into gear right away, unless of course this is what you did when you heard the noise. 4) Idle for so many seconds or until fast idle speed drops to normal. 5) If driving involved what kind of driving. As much detail as you can provide. What you want to avoid is not supplying enough info, not supplying meaningful details and the tech is unable to recreate the noise. If you have to arrange to be at dealer one morning after car has sat in similar conditions as when the noise appeared. If in a garage arrange to have car left in service bay overnight. (Be sure car not left outside and then "snuck" into service bay before you arrive. Check engine is dead cold.) Or if the car sits outside arrange to have it sit out on lot somewhere where you can start it and if necessary drive the car off the lot to recreate the noise. It is hard to know if noise something serious or just a loose heat shield. Of course, I can't advise tearing engine down to investigate a noise that a tech can't reproduce, though you have to as I mentioned above give him every bit of help in reproducing the noise. OTOH, I can't with a clear conscience advise you just continue to drive the car unless the service manager believes a reasonable attempt at reproducing the noise has been made -- and you're in agreement -- and no noise was recreated. Also, this needs to be accompanied by placing the car on the lift and having the tech make a thorough inspection of the engine mounts, transmssion mounts, underbody panels, suspension, steering, drivetrain, exhaust and exhaust/engine heat shields looking for something obviously wrong, loose, out of place. In some instances banging or pounding on various panels, exhaust pipes, heat shields and grabbing various items and giving them a good shake or tug looking any unreasonable play or noises. Likely you'll be billed for this time. An hour perhaps. Ask beforehand. In some cases I've observed a tech start an engine and the lift the car in the air and while engine/drivetrain warms up walking under car checking various areas for any signs of an abnormal noise -- the noise sometimes being barely audible over the normal noises -- with the noise increasing in volume as the engine warms up. In one case the engine started out rather quiet but in a few minutes I was there was making a pretty good racket. IMS bearing diagnosed. Like I started out with noises hard to diagnose. It is easy to say ignore it and it is easy to go too far the other way. You want to give the car every chance while at the dealership to manifest the noise and the tech every chance to hear it, and every chance to eliminate other external sources of the noise before you take the car back. Sincerely, Macster.

Macster - thank you for the advice, I am off to the mech with a print out. Though when I brought the car in they heard the noise and suspected that some chain (don't remember the name) may be broken. Will report back in a while. Thank you for all the help.

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Almost certainly not a chain broken or engine would not run. Could be a failed chain tensioner or guide though. As I mentioned in earlier post I watched tech start engine of Boxster, raise car on lift. Engine idling and tranny in neutral. Then this tech and shop foreman tech both under car listening. I was standing from out from under car and heard noise. Didn't sound at all healthy either. Oh, car was facing away from us and we were at the front of a service bay. I stayed out of the way but even from where I was I could hear the noise and hear it well enough to as I mentioned above note it was not a healthy sounding noise. It is important to note techs didn't race engine or first drive car around like a maniac but simply started engine and lifted car and then listened. Oh, shop foreman did bring out mechanic's stethescope to listen to engine at various places to be sure noise coming from where it sounded like it was coming from -- rear of engine (Boxster) where IMS bearing and chain drive from crank reside. Not sure but I believe the owner of this car received some goodwill. 1st engine replaced under warranty and this second engine while out of warranty had around 40K miles on it and I believe the techs told me the owner took good care of the car. Sincerely, Macster.

Thanks Macster. The sound disappeared, they removed the oil and no metal ????? They say it could have been nad gas and have asked me to drive it around to see if the sound starts up again. The tech who had heard the noise says he has never seen anything like this in 30 years. Do I drive it around or should I just get him to open the engine anyway. Thanks

Try to go for a long ride with your tech.

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No. Do *not* have tech open up engine. If other tech has not heard anything like this in 30 years I found it hard to believe bad gas could be at the bottom of the noise. Your car can't be the only one to get a dose of bad gas in 30 years. Possible though, I guess. If sound disappeared then if bad gas either the bad gas has been consumed or has mixed in with the other better gas where it can't make trouble. If tech pulled oil filter housing and poured oil out into clean drain pan and found nothing in the oil then that's a pretty good sign the noise even if mechanical has not yet caused any metal bits to appear. This does suggest a non-mechanical cause to the noise. Thus about all you can do is do as the tech suggests. I would approach this though with caution. Take baby steps, drives, bearing in mind if something serious does come of the noise you want to be in light to no traffic, not too far from home and a flat bed tow truck, you want to be in cell phone coverage. While driving have a safe place picked out to pull over and shut off engine quickly. Avoid starting engine again. Get on phone and get flat bed truck to come and pick your car up. Stress the engine can't be started, at all. Also, I would keep rpms down below some upper threshold say 4K, at least for a while. No need to start banging possibly sick engine off its rev limiter. Pay attention to what conditions were present, what steps you followed just in case noise appears again. If engine cold, warm, or hot. Approx. how long you let engine idle. What accessories you had on: A/C? Lights? etc and so on. If you start out with car and engine dead cold and drive until everything fully warmed up and no noise, then take a coffee break. 5 minutes later give the engine a hot start and drive around, easy does it, again. If after all the above and the engine has not reproduced the noise and is otherwise behaving normally, and coolant level good and oil level ok, cause you check these as often as you can under these circumstances, if engine operating normally, then you can push the engine a might harder. Nothing gruesome, but vary the engine load and rpms more. But chances are if noise has remained away this long it was something relatively minor and transistory, and bad gas certainly gets a place on the list of suspects. Side note: Buy name brand (top tier) gas, premium, and from a busy station to avoid buying stale gas. Premium gas can go stale rather quickly. Besides a busy station is likely one that offers gas at a lower price than other stations so you're getting fresher gas and paying less for it. Avoid running gas tank level way down. If low fuel level light comes on that's too low. Increases the odds if water or "bad" gas at bottom of tank fuel pump will pick it up and feed it to engine. About all you can do. Best of luck. Sincerely, Macster.

kst_77 here's a little warning. Strange things the mind will do when worried hehehe. You can build mole holes into mountains. Ignore simple things and think the end of the world is in your face. I'm not sure what nad gas is the guy you took it to referes to but I imagine it means old gas. Gas has a shelf life believe it or not. If you store or have just bought a car some place has been trying to sell it might have old gas in it. Fuel and or electric can cause misfires. You best thing to do now is get the tank down to half and get some injector cleaner in there before topping off again. Old gas gums up injectors. If you had all the problems and put some gas in the car before taking it to be looked at it might very well be the fuel was bad. Believe it or not some times you can get bad gas from gas stations. The shop might of heard you say you just bought the car and put some gas in it thats fresh to cure the problem. Guys that store bikes in winter are always thinking some major problem has developed while the vehicles sat while all along its just the fuel went bad. Soring a car you have to use fuel stabilizer to help stay away from the fuel being ate up. I don't think it stop fuel from drying up in the enjectors and passageways to go all gummy but eh. Take care and I'm glad I'm stopping jabbering on this keyboard. PS what changes did you do between seeing the problem and the sho getting the car? Fuel? plugs, filter and such? Did you just buy the car? Are you trying to blow smoke till you can post pictures of your car? Post pictures or the problem will return!

could this be a failing solinoid on the vario?

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Below is his original post. I don't know what the codes mean but missfiring is what somebody said. I also think depending on the length of time the engine sat and where could answer some questions. Like if it was at a car dealer and only got started from time to time if at all with out being run up the valve guides could get goofy sticky. I don't know if 77 has had a life time of trouble shooting and cars to repair to know what he is hearing when listening to an engine so all we can really go on is the engine is screwy. That's a great point to start from with hehehe. I always watch out for diagnosing mechaincal when it could be fuel or electrical abnormals. Throwing parts at a problem doesn't work. SO my cure is to be sold here shortly. It's the new Rennlist diagnostic webcam system. You plug it into the ECU and mount the cameras and microphones according to the supplied diagrams. Please read the attached warnings. Rennlist and its forum members are not to be blamed for remote starting your engine and redlining it to death or remote flashing the ECU to unheard of values. We also offer for a small additional cost a sound proofing barrier to keep your neighbors from going too ballistic while countless members remote start and try diagnosing your problem. Anyway I guess for now the deal is to get new gas in there, new plugs and air filter with a MAF cleaning that easier than the plugs for sure. Then just cruise it to loosen up the engine if it has been sitting for an extended period of time. One thing I do not like about engines that sit is which valves are open and which cylinders get air in and out that can corrode cylinder walls and other internal parts. I don't think engines sitting works at all. Running an engine will help smooth out problems thats for sure. That's only part of my fear factor of not using a car and letting it sit. I'll just throw gummed bearing and valve guides waiting to be scarred with filth as another. As far as major mechanical problems showing up? I don't think 911's self destruct or break down as much as many think so I like a chew some bubble gum and call it a simple fix approach. Do not forget injector cleaner in there. You don't want to bake in any gunk in there.

The tech changed the oil and filter (no metal). I followed Macster and took it for a drive..... Cold engine, low rpms for about 30 mins (no noise) Switched on A/C for 5 mins. The lights for 5 mins. Then both A/C and lights for 5 mins. Let the car rest for 15 mins and then started her up again and drove a little hard for 15 mins. Let it idle for 5 mins, let it rest for 10 mins. Drove back home 15 mins. The noise did not come back???? I have had this car for a while and been driving it on a daily basis. Pac996 - I did upload a photograph, will upload some more after I wash and wax the car.

Yah baby! You know I do feel the car felt neglected so played sick so it could visit with its brothers and sisters at a prosche shop. Once you take pictures and post them the car should be happy with its new owner and want to cuddle up with you. After washing lift the engine lid to get the water out of there. I watch water drain more than I'd like after washing. Double check in front of the windshield cowl to make sure it is draining the water. Mine played be plugged and was finger primeable to get the tube unplugged. You'll be a happy camper now wooo hooo.

so the noise went away? What exactly did they do? an oil change and that is it?

Yes the noise went away, even before the oil change. Now I am scared to drive for I don't know if I am doing more damage and to what!!! Will follow your instructions Pac996 :-)

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your only clue is the thrown codes.... all the suggestion on page one should be done at the least... when was the last time you changed the plugs or coil packs?

Plugs and coils were changed about a year back 7k miles.

I have seen just old oil foul things up. I figure its more drag on the engine and the fumes that cook off and enter into the intake from the crankcase breather don't help the engine run. Could just be the engine was running rough from the O2 sensors needing to be cleaned off by heat and exhaust flowing. Lots of variable with cars that sit around not being used. To be a finely tuned and lubed machine running it has to be done

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Given you tried under several different engine temperature conditions to reproduce the noise and were unsuccessful it is unlikely the noise is coming from a mechanical problem. With no check engine light, no noise, no other untoward engine symptoms, the noise was almost certainly due to a transistory condition. Bad gas, a plugged injector, even a piece of combustion chamber deposit came loose and interfered with a valve closing 100% for a while. I read where you had plugs and coils replaced a while back. Generally the last thing touched is the first thing suspected when some symptom appears. It could be a bad new coil, or a bad new plug, or perhaps a coil that is not attached to a plug tightly or even an improperly tightened plug. You know the shop that did this work and only you can know the confidence level you have in this shop. If the noise returns without a clear indication of its source I'd have the coils/plugs checked just to be sure all is right. If a misfire code or codes appear you can swap coils around and see if the misfire codes follow the coils. But assuming the noise stays away, and absent any signs of engine distress I think you're ok to drive the car. My course of action would be to keep my usage of the car local -- no cross country trips for a while -- though varied from city driving to highway driving, and to keep in mind the possibility of the noise returning. As the miles accumulate and the noise remains absent and the engine continues to behave normally and without any signs of trouble, then your confidence in the car can only return to its pre-noise level and you can begin to treat the car as you did before this episode. I do much the same thing when I buy a new (or used) car or after I've had a car worked on. I give the car a shakedown period from a drive or two depending upon what was done to the car to sometimes a month or more in the case of a new car or "new" used car until I have confidence in the car and its reliability before I venture out on a cross country trip. Sincerely, Macster.

Macster - the plugs were replaced by a shop that I do not trust, will get my new tech to have a look and will keep the driving local. My around America trip is not until September anyway. Will slowly drive it to work in a week or so provided everything is fine (25 miles). Thank you for all the help. Regards

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thats sez alot right there...

isnt there an old thread called..... my car had a wierd problem and fixed itself?

Valves sticking upsets engine performance since 100% of operation depends on them being in tune. Injectors getting gummed up from sitting around not running fouls things up. You can go either sticking to keep adding fuel or not opening enough. Water and other contamination in fuels doesn't pass easy through fuel injectors causing major problems. Even gas stations once in a while sell bad batches of fuel. Water will even completely lock an injector up not allowing anything to pass when the injector isn't even sticking. I imagine heating the engine can help clear water from injectors. Fuel pumps before going out can play intermitent problems like yours. I never should of mentioned that one. Best to not run fuel injected engines below a 1/4 tank to keep air from getting in the pumps which burns the pump out since the pump relies on fuel to keep it cool. I'm glad your car is running good now. After a good running period hopefully the mystery wont ride with you as much as an impending fear. Some of us have been there.

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redridge sums it up nicely. I'd say have tech you trust look at this sooner rather than later. If plug loose it can ruin the threads in the head from moving around. I'd not not delay having a trusted tech specifically eliminate wrong plugs, or plug, loose plug (or plugs), loose or bad or wrong coil packs, etc. In fact, give the labor cost is the larger portion of the bill I'd just have him replace all 6 plugs with new ones of the proper brand, type. At this time he can then ensure they're all the same (I've seen plugs mis-boxed!) and installed correctly (properly torqued down) and each coil pack is securely connected to its spark plug. Sincerely, Macster.

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Valves just don't stick if stem not bent (this can happen if engine overreved and valves hit pistons... I might add a bent valve stem is preferrable to having the head snap off which usually happens) or valve spring not broken. Even with a broken valve spring as long as the spring exerts enough force to keep the valve keeper snug and the valve spring retainer in place a valve just doesn't stick. If spring doesn't do this a sticking valve is the least of your problems. The other stuff you mention is possible. Water in gas can result in a scored injector which will not create a correct spray pattern and in severe cases not fully shut closed. (Water in fuel can quickly ruin a diesel injector -- and on the way to the injector ruin the fuel pump -- which is why diesel fuel filters have a water trap.) Sincerely, Macster.

Will keep driving around and report if there is any problem. thank you everyone.

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Why don't you trust that shop or did I miss something?

I started the car yesterday evening and though i heard a faint knocking again. So today morning I recorded it. The larger file that is attached takes a while to start but looks like I managed to capture the sound. I also did move away from the car (Macster) and the second recording is of that. After a while the sound just disappears. I am confused??? Thank you for the help Youtube video below

I'm not downloading that.... last time I did that I spent 3 days fixing my PC from a virus. Post it on YOU TUBE. I woudl have the IMSB checked. Faint knocking HAS been reported prior to IMSF...

Here are the youtube videos, please give the first on 10 seconds before you hear the engine. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QDzTfW5Sk0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jkWiNkbLvo

I don't have anything for playing those files. Given the way it happens it seems like a lack of lube when it clanks or clicks before getting lubed? When you start the car and hear that noise just run the rpms at 14,000 for a few seconds. What happens is the extra rpms for a short period gets the lube distributed faster. Some performance engines have a program that reads the temp and determines the length of higher rpms at start accordingly. Two objects metal to metal or plastic will make clicking and snapping noises when they break loose since they aren't lubed. I wont call it sticking because Macster wont like that If you aren't getting an initial oil pressure of 5 bars that could be a problem. I mostly think after the car sits the oil drains into the sump and just needs to reach the cams and valves before the noise ends. Some cars just don't start happy Try cleaning the MAF and making sure the air filter is clean so the electronics aren't having to adjust around irregular conditions. Oops now I see youtube videos and it sounds like lack of oil at start. Do the 14,000 rpms trick. What ever you do make sure you are happy for the weekend.

Will try the 14,000 rpms trick tomorrow morning and post the verdict, thank you.

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Oh sheeze I mean 1,400rpms. Hehehe I've got a bike that does 14,000 so it kind of didn't register as a strange thing. Yah 1,200-1,400rpms a second or two after start when you hear it then do the 1,400 for a 3 seconds or so.

Yes :-) i figured. Whats funny is that earlier the sound did not exist in idle and only started at above 1500 rpm. But now the sound is there in idle and no sound on acceleration. Thanks

Just tried it, the sound is still there after holding it at 1400 rpms for 3-5 seconds. It goes away after 5 minutes once the engine begins to warm up.

lifter.... should go away once its lubed up.

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Does the noise return upon next cold, warm, or hot engine start? If not then I agree with others: zero lash adjuster (lifter) bled down or doesn't pump up fully for a few minutes or so. Once engine fully warmed up a spirited drive could help. This helps to flush oil from the lifters and replace it with "fresh" oil. Once the noise goes away it should stay away. If it returns after engine has sat a while then a lifter is 'bad' in that it allows oil pressure and oil to be squeezed out when engine off. Assuming of course the engine stops with the lifter under compression. It may not. Random. In this case a new lifter may be required. I came across a new Carrera (an 02) that required this and in fact had it done under warranty. Happens. If the noise comes and goes at any time engine running... that's tougher... I'd have to think about it but only if you tell me it does this. Keep fresh clean oil in the engine. Old contaminated oil loaded with unburned gas and water will lose viscosity and then is more prone to leaking out of where it shouldn't. Sincerely, Macster.

The noise comes back only at cold start, looks like the lifter. They are going to try Swepco first. Will keep you posted. Regards

Swepco the oil did the trick, the noise is gone. Thank you everyone for the help. Regards

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Good to hear. Swepco oil (what viscosity?) or Swepco oil additive? Porsche techs have told me that Swepco oil additive -- the one with moly (I forget the Swepco part number) -- quiets engines on startup that are used infrequently. I tried some in each car but I didn't notice any difference. But I don't let my cars sit unused for more than a few days at a time and noise on startup is not a problem. Sincerely, Macster.

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I'll bet you're sleeping better now. Nice to hear that something simple did the trick.

I think it was Swepco 502, worked like a charm. Yes sleeping much better :-) thank you once again for the help.