Are Porsche dealer fixing IMS when they update the RMS?

Sorry to bring a painful topic back on the board but I know that my car was serviced for the RMS (rear main seal) problem, and had a new clutch installed at the same time. What I wonder is if the Porsche dealer would have checked the IMS (intermediary shaft) ? And even if they did, are the Porsche dealer authorized/capable of updating the IMS ? I am under the impression that the IMS bearing update is an aftermarket thing only, no ? Anyways, I just wanted to know if anybody had some experience with IMS weakness diagnosed at the Porsche Dealership. I have only read about people bringing the car once it is too let, to get the engine exchanged. Also after all those years of IMS and broken engine, still no class action or even an 'go to' lawyer for this particular problem ?

NO your dealer believes the IMS is non-servicable part, no need to check or replace an item that "cannot" be replaced that said my indy is doing them very regularly, My advise, get it done as soon as it makes sense. If you need an installer in your area, contact LN Engeneering's website and maybe they can set you up a shop. Good luck.

Yeah, what Ed said. I saw in another post what you paid for your car. Made me a bit sick to my stomach considering what I paid for my car (that sounds just like yours) just 9 months ago. Mine did come with a Porsche CPO warranty. The RMS was leaking on mine and I elected to have a new clutch kit installed as well. I bought my car with 35K on the clock. I am sure they checked the IMS seal to see if it was leaking or causing part of your leak issue but that is all they did with regards to the IMS. Remember RMS is an annoyance, the IMS is a "killer"

My dealer suggested an IMS seal replacement when my RMS was done last year, so I had them do both. I don't think they checked the IMS bearing or even considered that it could and/or possibly needed to be replaced.

Dealer performed an IMS seal replacement (at my request) when performing RMS replacement. At that time, I was not very clear on this whole thing. Looks like they did not replace the bearing as I had originally thought. FM

the seal leaking and/or replaced WONT SAVE YOUR MOTOR sorry guys, but I have seen many of these bearing that "look" ok or were "fine this morning" and now the car is dead - I am sure to be branded as an alarmist, and I will be the first to say its not an emergency, BUT - I will also NEVER STOP saying, "replace it as soon as it makes sense" sooner would be better than 1 second too late

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Shark? Is that you?

LOL nope, he's driving this boat... I am just hanging off the stern

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All joking aside, I would be more than a bit uneasy if I did not have one of the following 3 things: A CPO warranty A comprehensive aftermarket warranty covering such things as seals/gaskets/bearings and there associated failure items LN/Flat 6 IMS bearing

I am currently shopping for aftermarket warranty but that is no easy task. Everybody is fast on giving you the prices, but when you ask for a copy of the contract to read the fine print, the are gone... I am near Dallas, so RUF is offering me TSP (Total Service Protection), Park place dealer is offer ASC warranty but really none of those guy have a decent website. You can't even read the contract online... scaaaryyy #soverystout, I think the CPO is money well spent indeed. I will have to add $3500 to my cost for a full coverage warranty anyways.

OK here we go again. The dealer will only do anything if you tell them to do it. Other than that they are waiting out all the warranties. After all, Replace 80% of IMS bearings or replace a few engines. If you are not under warranty you're screwed if it happens. They will not help one little bit and it has been proven here over and over and over. What causes IMSF? Good question. After I took a good long look at it here is what I came up with. This is OPINION The seal fails on the bearing allowing engine oil to pass through the bearing into the Shaft. The oil has no where to go and then sits in the shaft and cooks black and breaks down maybe even gets gritty. Now this burnt oil is what is lubing the bearing and thus causes it to fail for LACK OF GOOD LUBE. LNE has a good fix for the price. But I think the actual IMS itself needs a few drain holes drilled in it to let the oil that gets in the shaft get out. However this would be next to impossible with the retrofit kit because you never remove the shaft. No way to drill any holes. ( I wonder if you could if you removed the oil pan? Hmmmmmm) <---- JAKE?

how about packing it FULL of grease before installing the new bearing BTW I am kiiding, thermal expansion would cause MAJOR issues if you did

Depends on the dealer. Mine was aware of the LN/Flat 6 IMS bearing upgrade. They had not done one, but knew the local indy had done a few.

Do Porsche dealers now buy from LN/Flat 6 and do the replacement or are they still in denial, just curious.?

I heard of a couple, but they dont want to let corporate know or the hammer would be knocken on some heads (from what I hear)

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I have heard a story where the service advisor put the kit on his peronal credit card and the customer paid him back to keep it off the books?

well that sounds like an "above the board" move on his part....sure porsche would not mind

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Kyle- I have thought the same thing. I also wonder if all that oil in the shaft causes an imbalance in the shaft and could contribute to the bearing failure- although the number one reason for bearing failure is lack of lubrication. Also wondered if it would be possible to drill holes in the IMS shaft from under the engine. Shaft is below the crank. 3 holes would seem to do the job. (Did you see that guy from Spain put a cork in the shaft?) Great minds think alike- Maybe Jake will look at this.

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I might have to throw the BS flag on this one. Why wouldn't the customer just put it on his own card?

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Just repeating what I heard

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I was thinking 4 holes 90 degrees from one an other spaced = across the shaft. Or 3 holes, @ 120 degrees? Lack of lube? Not so sure. I think it is lack of clean lube. If you think about it, when the car is not running, the bearing is not in clean oil. However the burnt oil in the tube can seap back in to the bearing. The new bearing from LNE has the one side and one side only seal removed from the bearing So the engine oil can get in the bearing. I almost think that removing the seal from the visable side of a porsche bearing may save it. But what do I know

With a couple hundreds of engineers at Porsche headquarter, you'd think they would come up with something... Only reason I see to not fix it, is to sell rebuild engine... but that would be really mean, wouldn't it ! I can't believe they let this go so long and that nobody came up with a class action law suit. That is what they deserve !

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I dont know what to tell you. People do a lot of talking but no one really has done anything. Not really sure a lawsuit is there. If you are under warranty they fix it with a smile. If not, they hand you a 17K bill with a **** eating grin. I am not sure a suit about the IMS is the way to go. Finding enough people to participate would be hard and the cost involved in getting the data needed. Plus dealers have more data about it than anyone and they are not going to just hand it over. I feel the numbers of IMS you see on the internet are scewed a bit becasue when you feel you are getting the shaft, where is teh first place you go to check it out? Thats right the internet. So I think we see more here than our fare share. I think a suit would have more of a chance with original owners who took a bath in re-sale value. When I came on here and voiced my opinion of why the cars have tanked in price I was met with many people in denial that the car they paid 60-70K for was now only worth 20K on a good day. When I told them I was buying an 99 Aero for 17K. I got met with all kinds of "dont come back here crying you got screwed"," For that Price I am sure it is not a REAL AERO". The car is nice, Its here and I drive it everyday its not raining. I didnt pay for the IMS the other owners did. The first only had it for a few months, The second owner bought it for 56K and 8 years later sold it to the 3rd owner for 27K, One year later the 4th owner paid 17K, 6 months later I paid 17K. The guy who took the bath was owner #3. And that plays in with what I have seen. As little as 1.5 years ago you couldnt touch a new body 911 for under 30K. In the last year I have seen them going for mid teens on a daily basis. I know, I watched because I wanted one for years.

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awe.... you need to look in side one of these motors and you might have a little more faith the the bean counters are running the show -

02 996 C2 27K miles- purchased 6 yrs 75K Fidelity Warranty from local dealer few yrs ago after buying car from friend- few drops of oil on floor last month- took to dealer last week- they installed new RMS and IMS seal- covered by warranty- i paid for clutch from sunset- So far Fidelity has covered two repairs with no issue. thankful i've 3 1/2 yrs left on warranty to cover IMS bearing issue if it develops.

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That's great! Fidelity may have more of a problem with a $14K plus motor as opposed to a repiar that probably caost less than $2k. But hey, if Fidelity continues to work out for you (or it doesn't) let us know. Thanks, Jim

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It is good to know that Fidelity extended warranty services has not let you down on this. So the dealer at least acknowledged the fact that the IMS needed a new seal? Did you ask for it specifically or they knew about it and they do this each time they detach the gearbox ? BTW, can you tell us how much you paid for that super long warranty ? i am in the market for one I think we need an extended warranty thread (price, detail policy, experience), is there one already ?

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It's true, unfortunately. If they had not been so tight for money when this car was developed, it probably wouldn't have used the IMS design at all. AFAIK, it was imposed because they wanted to avoid the cost of casting separate heads for the left and right sides of the motor.

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I agree on the bad oil- It surely has alot of acid and water in it which will corrode the ball bearings. Once that happens, the clearances increase and the ballbearings start moving laterally in the races, and the cage starts giving out. on a side note , I noticed that some cars produce a lot more acid in the oil. I had a Audi turbo that produced enough acid in the oil that it would eat through the plastic containers I put the old old in. If I didn't get them to recycling within a month, I would have a nice mess on my hands. All my other cars were fine.

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You have more than the engineers involved, when it comes to these situations. Lawyers don't want a trail that could admit fault, engineers not willing to think outside the box, finance picking the lowest cost senarios. BTDT I've been in those meetings. They did take care of people that were in warranty, and replacing engines is pretty generous (and costly). The fact that so many of these cars are garage queens IS a major contributor. Sitting in a garage all winter or only driver a few miles on weekends isn't good for any car. You don't want a class action suit. Only the lawyers WIN. All you will get a coupon that will save you 5% off a new 911. And now the value of your car will really drop with the publicity. Lose-Lose situation.

2001 C4 with 95K miles. Just did the clutch (first) and at the same time put in an Inengineering IMS bearing assembly (was lucky enough to have the double race version which is less troublesome) and a 997 Rear Main Seal, although I was not having an RMS leak. Thought it prudent to do both as I intend to run up much higher mileage. Also replaced the 996 shift assembly and shift cables with a 997 shift assembly. A 997 shift assembly drops right into the 996 and is shorter throw, much more positive at each shift point - feels like each shift location has a gate and is not sloppy as the 996 shifter was. Was told that the double race IS bearing will warn you that it is moving toward failure by loudly rattling whereas the single race bearing fails without warning the driver. The double race became single race sometime in 2001 production; it is cheaper to produce. The Inengineering assembly is open to hot oil on the engine side and the bearings are not metal and have a natural lubrication and do not shatter as steel does. They are designed for lubrication with engine oil, unlike the factory bearing assembly. Worth every penny to me. Can be done for a reasonable cost when you do the clutch. I believe it to be prudent, given the horror stories.

phil000- dealer installed new IMS seal w/o my asking as part of RMS repair- they did give the party line when i asked about IMS failures, etc- in 7/07 bought Fidelity platinum ext warranty from dealer for my 02 996 C2 with 17k miles (private party purchase)- got 6 yr/75k mile warranty-0 dedutible if service done at dealer- good for 6 yrs from date of warranty purchase or 75k miles on car- it wasn't cheap - believe it was $3700 or so but i wanted no worries for 6 yrs. So far i've recovered about 40% in cost from 3 repairs they've covered oil press sending unit, RMS/IMS, and remote issue with one of keys.

I had my RMS/IMS from LNE single row porcelain bearing upgrade, and McKenna Porsche in Norwalk replaced last 07/07 for $1000 out the door with me supplying the aftermarket upgrade from LNE. It turned out that my RMS was leaking badly and IMS likewise but McKenna got rid of the IMS bearing when I was asking for it. I suspect they're sending it to Stuttgart for analysis or they just don't give a sh'''. Anyways, any member that might be interested for an upgrade, go order your stuff from LNE and contact McKenna Porsche right away coz I have a feeling they're gonna start charging more for the labor. An indy @ Torrance, Ca is offering a package for $1900. This is for those of you living around LA or OC. I'm glad I did my upgrade coz I've been dreading this engine failure since I started reading rennlist and flat6 discussions, my car would have been toasted if I delayed it. Total cost $519 for parts + $1000 for labor. Insist on paying only $1000 for the labor, Josh Kramer is about to move to Covina Acura soon accdg to him, so the offer might not last. Just trying to help out. Good luck guys.

some one can tell me what is IMS thanks

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NEVER HEARD OF it before either.... I think scare tactics abound to benefit indys and what not...

04 996 C2 - My dealer checked both my RMS and IMS and replaced the IMS seal - under CPO warranty at the time. They claim that they check the IMS for run out when replacing the seal. They also cut open my oil filter at every oil change and look for metal and plastic - so far always clean - 65k on the car and I drive it daily. Oil changes between 5500 and 7500 miles, basically 2x per year. My dealer also installs the replacement IMS bearing and said that they have two sources; I can work with the mechanic to choose which source I want to use and either buy it from the dealer or provide it on my own. Labor is the same in either case, quoted me $900.00 for the labor. But they recommended I wait until I replace the clutch in the future and then my cost for the IMS bearing replacement will be basically the part cost. They said that they own the tools for both bearing suppliers and it is a very simple and quick job once the transmission is out. They have had two catastrophic engine failures, one on a 1999 and one on a 2005. I was in the shop when the crate motor came in for the 2005. It is obvious that they are quite tired of being grilled about IMS failures and the bearings they replace are "peace of mind" repairs. My CPO is expired so I will follow their suggestion and do the IMSR when the clutch needs to be replaced, guessing I will do that at 70k to 75k miles. I don't stress too much about this anymore - it is a car and I have a new perspective. I used to worry every day if my motor was going to blow up - my wife has ovarian cancer and she worries every day if today will be the day that it takes her. I coach her every day to live today because today she is alive and worrying is robbing her of all enjoyment. Then I felt like a fool for worrying about a freakin' car. So - keep it in perspective - drive your car, enjoy your car, - and do that today.

FWIW, my local dealer has excellent technicians and an experienced service manager, and I rely on them for nearly all my service needs. Recently, I asked them if they had investigated the LN Engng. retrofit approach for replacing the IMS bearing without complete engine removal/splitting the case, etc., as recommended by Porsche AG. (I have a '99 996, 6-speed.) Response?...a long silence followed by "No, we follow Porsche's recommendations completely." Then they politely changed the subject. relinuca

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[Sarcasm] It stands for Immediate Motor Seizure, and describes what happens when a newbie buys a Porsche without doing at least a minimum of research. [/Sarcasm]

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silotwo: This is the type of attitude that we should all have. Thank you for putting in perspective.

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While I agree with the sentiment, I am enjoying my Carrera more now that I had the IMS upgrade bearing installed. I think it is a wise precaution, like replacing a seemingly fine timing belt and water pump in a 944 every 40k miles. Simple piece of mind.

I work at a Porsche dealership and we replace IMS using the LN products with warranty. We even pay for parts up front and bill the customer for the parts on the service invoice in full view of Porsche. So what you folks "heard" sounds like rumor and pure BS to me. And we also inform customers of this upgrade when it makes sense with other services being performed.

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You bought a 911 without knowing what an IMS is? Stands for Intermediate shaft. Located right below the rms ( rear main seal)

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The 996 owners I know learned about the IMS bearing issue after purchase.

Dealer did my RMS and IMS with LN bearing and put it right on the invoice before i got the car.

Hello bgrpph, I am looking for support in my failed IMS bearing problem. Was its the decision of the Porsche dealer to replace the RMS and IMS bearing due to the oil drip? If so, I would like to see if I can use that to support my stance with my Porsche dealer. Your reply would be greatly appreciated.

Hi URSUSMUGGR- The dealer did not replace my IMS bearing- they only replaced the IMS bearing SEAL with newer one. I had the normal RMS oil leak with drops on floor under car- they verified leak and replaced RMS and the IMS seal. They had normal dealer response regarding IMS bearing itself- I didn't push them to install the LNE bearing at that time as the repair was being paid by my extended warranty Fidelity. hope this helps -

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I know exactly which dealership was doing this. We have another that has the customers pay for and we drop ship the parts to the dealership, but for the most part, the dozens of dealerships who order mostly buy direct and bill the jobs out for what they are and don't hide it. I know of only one dealership that got in trouble with Porsche for marketing the retrofits too aggressively and a CPO customer wrote to Porsche wanting the retrofit done and covered under his warranty. I would have to guesstimate that half of the Porsche dealerships in North America purchase and use our retrofit kits at this point in time. One of the local ones to us has done dozens.

bgrpph, Thanks for the reply. Can you please contact me at [email removed] .....I have a question for you but want to keep this confidential. Thank you!