996 buyers are a different sort

The used 996 owners I have met have all (100%) confessed to buying their car on a whim, or without doing adequate investigation. They viewed the 996 as a $20,000 "toy" that looked cool. None (0%) of the 996 owners I know knew whether they had an original or reman engine before they were given instructions on how to find and read the engine code. None of the 996 owners I have met knew that the reman engine likely precluded the LN Eng IMSB retrofit. None of the 996 owners I have met knew that a single sealed bearing failure could end up costing them over $20,000 in parts, labor and "other" sensible repairs done at the same time. This is a different sort of a car buyer--in my mind this is how people end up in Smart cars and Nissan Leafs--not in Teutonic wizardry.

You need to meet more used 996 owners. I should amend that statement a bit. It doesn't surprise me that anyone who bought their car 'on a whim' without doing a little bit of diligence on it, isn't aware of a particular vehicle's typical problems. While I will admit that I haven't met many used 996 owners in person, it's safe to say that most (if not all) of the folks on this board who are still searching for a 996 are more than aware of the 996es common maladies. I don't know how many people you've spoken to in person but anyone who buys ANY car without doing a little bit of investigation (whether it's a Porsche or any other brand of vehicle) is foolish...and it's safe to say that there are fools who buy every kind of car out there. Certainly those of us on this board who have bought used 996es aren't buying them 'on a whim' without doing a little research. -Eric

Sounds pretty elitist , Bedee .......

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It's safe to say you have met perhaps one tenth of a percent of the perhaps ninety thousand 996 owners worldwide. Also this whole IMS hysteria is out of proportion to reality.. The percentage of cars that had it is small. Imho, If you leave a car in the garage for months at a time trying to bottle the Porsche mystique and alow moisture to build up in the oil there will be problems. Stop fretting and drive your freaking car.

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Mositure in the oil is the root cause of IMSB failure then? (sigh) See what I mean? Where's Henry Timken when you need him? Perhaps you are in bearing failure denial my friend. Look, it's simple, it's as simple as this: Your oil-cooled p-buddies accept head stud and valve guide issues... but 996 owners seem to live in IMSB denial. 996 owners are a different sort.

Ben?

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Who said anything about root causes. If you don't drive the car the oil will degrade and cause problems is what I said. You hear that over and over on this forum, and in my opinion it is a strong factor. You come on here making general statements about 996 owners and I believe you are wrong.

I fear that simply reading the same "truth" over and over on this forum doesn't make it any "truer". You lost me at "drive your freaking car".

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mmmhhh. I don't think we have met then... Bought it after thorough research and extensive PPI. One of the first mods was LN IMS upgrade. FM

My wife bought me my 996 as a total surprise. I immediately set out to find out exactly what I had. Fortunately for me I grew up dreaming about 911's and learned how to throw my 65' Mgb around corners, learned how to double clutch and heal toe. My first drive in my 996 one year ago was my first drive in a 911! Exactly everything I'd ever imagined and maybe a bit more! An hour after my first few trips taking my family each for a spin I dove into the Internet and learned to refer to my particular 911 as a 996 funny all those years of dreaming of a 911 and I never refer to it as one... It's a 996. Anyhow, I quickly had a bit of a sick feeling when I learned about the IMS, felt a little better at least mine was a 2001 and had benifited from some minor up grades from the 99 and 00'. Here's how being overly aware of the IMS was almost as bad as actually having an IMS failure. Of course I needed a poor oil change a nice hot day and an unscrupulous and or stupid Porsche dealer to take advantage of the situation. I would have been a statistic of the statistics had I taken the $9,000 offer on the badly smoking car I had towed to the dealer. This forum and some common sense saved me from this fate. Many said check your AOS or maybe an oil overfill. Funny, with out the knowledge of the forum I'd have never thought my entire engine had blown up as I'd be blissfully unaware of the dreaded IMS failure. Then, lucky for me the collective knowledge of this forum guided me to retrieve my car from the dealer and determine what was ultimately the problem... Oil over fill. Fortunately the car is so much fun to drive that even the nigling worry about the engine possibility blowing doesn't rob me of the pleasure.

I don't agree with the OP.....I have owned German cars for over 20 years and always did my research. Also....the 996 problems that scare people can be just like the Audi timing belt problems...or the BMW subframe problems....sometimes posts on the internet scare people away from them. Regardless....when you buy any used older German car...you better have some money stored away. Just my 2 cents.

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What is this IMS thing? Maybe you should start a thread about it. There are a bunch of people here that own 996s and would appreciate learning something new.

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Jake? Is this for real?

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I would have a lot more to say to counter OP's "observation", but the above statement pretty much says it all.

In respect to the OP, I think there are probably a lot of buyers out there that buy cars like the 996 as a status symbol and because they can finally afford the 911 that they have always wanted. Remember how many were built and then thing about how many ended up the hands of true enthusiasts who peruse these forums. A significant portion of new buyers probably do not know the RMS from the IMS Bearing and would be lucky to figure out where to add oil. When it breaks they take it to their mechanic... As such, they don't do a PPI and they don't find out about the potential long term risks and costs, because they are making an emotional purchase that is governed by a visual inspection, test drive and maybe a Carfax. All that being said, the oldest 996s are now 13 years old and I would regard such an approach as higher risk and advise anyone on the realities of the car. I would also postulate that most of us here view the above approach as heresy and would never buy without PPI and full knowledge of the potential issues, and performing preventative maintenance etc.

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Say it isn't so...

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I agree with this to a certain degree, especially in the context of first time 996 buyers. Most folks coming from non-Porsches don't appreciate the need for a PPI. It's more out of extrapolating prior car buying experience to the 996 that doesn't usually entail a PPI or serious internet investigation. I dind't get a PPI for my first Porsche. I looked at the Carfax and the warranty and drove away. In my mind, saying they are a different "sort" only implies those buyers were not aware of that they could have done a little more investigation up front. I don't think this makes anyone elitist or having more money than brains. -td

well I admit it, the OP described me when I bought the 996 right down to NO PPI and no Carfax check...just "bought the car cuz it was pretty and a Porsche" figured in my mind the biggest expense "could be" a motor blow up and might cost me $5-7k what else could go wrong...BUY IT! didnt sleep well that first year at all

Maybe all those 996 buyers who buy their car on a whim and never know about IMS issues are better off than we think. They buy the car, enjoy it and never worry about their engine expolding because they never know it's a potential issue. Does that sound so bad? Maybe ignorance is bliss... What about 997 buyers? The IMS issue wasn't resolved until the 997.2. 997 buyers must be a different sort also. Cayennes have the potential for major issues, so their buyers must be a different sort too. I think this whole discussion is silly.

Is it too early to start drinking?

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I look forward to the new thread in the P!g Pen. But in fairness, that is a different sort.

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way ahead of you Marc.....have not stopped since yesterday morning

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Well than cheers my friend Let us drown out our regrets and frustrations.

Ivangene made an interesting point.. New factory engines used to be 5-7K, today that START at 13K and now core charges can be 18K!! This is something that we knew would happen, and eventually crate engines will go away from the factory.. The new engine cost was send up like a rocket in 2009 due to the value of the dollar.. A lot of potential 996 owners call us first, BUT a majority call us AFTER they have had the car for 3 weeks or so and start looking to google for info on performance upgrades, only to be seriously disappointed. I recently sold my Wife's 996, the purchaser had never owned a Porsche, but he had carried out all the research and was an informed buyer. Because of that he was smart and bought a car that already had the IMS Retrofit bearing installed and that was proven with the door jamb decal with our serial number. Honestly, many more purchasers of Boxsters seem to do their homework up front rather than 996 purchasers.. Try that one on for size-

I was/ am the other extreme. I started looking at Boxsters in '97. It had a new refreshing look and the new watercooled flat 6 that all the motomedia was highly praising. It was also affordable, in relative Porsche terms. I was reading everything I could, and had membership on every Porsche internet forum trying to learn everything Porsche. In '97, '98 and '99 there were virtually no cars available for sale in any model Boxster and 911s were virtually non existant as well. Production was up from previous years but demand was skyrocketing. This was due to the great economy, the internet going mainstream, the technology and dot com boom. Any Porsche would require a special order to get one and time varied from a few months to almost a year for delivery. Used Boxsters were almost as much or in some cases more than new ones, and the 993 were very expensive as well. In '98 I became a "waiter", a term for those who had ordered a car and were waiting for the build, ocean transport and dealer delivery. I was going to share the car with my wife so I ordered a tip. It was Arctic Silver with Boxster Red full leather interior, cruise, trip computer, CD, 17" wheels and a few other bits. The cost was a whopping $61k. After a couple of months, I got cold feet and gave up my order. This was due to what I considered too many potential issues that I didn't want to deal with on an early model production run. I'd wait until things got better sorted. The internet was a new tool for alerting people in various circles around the world anything and everything regarding what there is to like and dislike about anything. I quickly learned of cracked and slipped sleeves and heads causing intermix issues, intermediate shafts breaking and the all too common leaking rear seals. There were also a host of other issues that were not engine related but would be considered a pita to have to deal with. Fortunately at this time, everythig was covered under warranty, but the inconvience of the failure and unknown future regarding valuations was more than I wanted to deal with at this time. Fast forward to spring '02. My wife sold her mint Corvette and bought a '99 Boxster with under 8k miles still under warranty. We still have it and it has been off warranty for 9 years. It's like mint and a hoot to drive. It has less than 30k miles. In '03 I bought a 996 Cab, looked for 15 months to find the perfect car. Had a PPI, flew half way across the country, drove it back. Very nice! My years of research and months of looking paid off. Took nearly a year to find my Turbo. It paid big dividends as well. I saw several pics of the car, spoke with the person handling the sale for the owner, one of his employees that helps with personal matters. Had a copy of the PPI from a Porsche dealer that uses a CPO checklist. Asked lots of questions, got favorable answers. Nice to know exactly you have before you even see or take delivery of the car. In the case of the Turbo, I was totally blown away when I saw it. It looked better than a new car sitting on the dealer showroom. I paid for the car before I even heard it run or drove it, it looked that good!

I did quite a bit of research on mine too. I read about the 996 and looked at many potential cars until I bought mine roughly 6 months later.

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I do sometimes miss him, though!

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Agreed. None of the 996 owners I have met knew about rennlist or RennTech. This is consistent with the observations in the OP and your comments above. To the uninitiated, a 996 looks to be a startingly cheap way to drive a lovely exotic car. The "true truth" is too often another matter altogether. I believe 996 owners on rennlist need to be more forward in educating newcomers who drop by to confirm the 996 "bargains" that they find. As I have noted before... MY99 through MY01 996s often look nearly new and are a blast to drive. The educated buyer knows that under that exterior could be lurking cylinder head issues, RMS, IMS, AOS, etc. It is my impression that many rennlisters think a MY99 through MY901 996 with a reman engine represnts a "great find". The truth is that many reman engines have the revised IMSB with 22mm center nut and aren't a canddiate for the LN Eng retrofit. I don't think SHATTACK's IMSB "sticky" addresses this important topic.

J beede, where are you getting the info that 99-2001 Carrera's that have had engine replacements have a 22mm IMS that cannot benefit from the L&N upgrade??? I HIGHLY doubt they redesigned the 3.4 just for replacement motors, that would have required a complete retool and new block design to my knowledge. From what I know, all 3.4 engines have an IMS that can be removed and replaced by the L&N bearing kit. Please share with us where it is stated otherwise? David

wait, what? Maybe becasue they are only 20 grand we dont feel like we have to do all that? mine is 100% 20K toy. no PPI when I bought mine. But I knew a lot about the IMS issue

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Any 3.4 (or any other M96 engine) that was new/ reman post the 2006 implementation of the 997 style IMS bearing has an IMS bearing that cannot be retrofitted.

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Thanks, Jake. Have you seen IMS failures on these reman engines?

I love the fact that the OP thinks we're in denial. Why? Just because we bought one? The first page of the 996 forum always has at least one, if not several, posts on IMS failures and questions. There's even an IMS/RMS sticky at the top. It seems like he should be criticizing anyone who bought a 996 (or ANY car for that matter) without doing some research on it beforehand. There's certainly a plethora of information about the M-96 and the 996 in general on Rennlist, Renntech and a dozen or so other websites. Maybe someone else who needs to be educated is the OP? -Eric

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Could be a fair statement since we don't know each other. I purchased mine in 2007, hmmm now that I think about it was our 4 year anniversary on the 7th of this month. Dealer should have called me and told me how badly they needed my used 996 on trade for that GTS! Actually I did not buy mine on a whim and I obviously paid much more than $20k for it four years ago. I'll admit that other than googling "2004 Porsche" and paying for a full car fax, I did not anguish for months in research. I knew about the RMS, was somewhat concerned until I read about the progressive updates to the replacements and mine was replaced when qualifying for CPO. I will add that I am still on that RMS and it was dry when my transmission was replaced about 2 years ago, under CPO. They replaced the IMS at the same time, "while they were in there". The single requirement that I had was that I purchase a CPO car. The IMSB catastrophy must not have been so well known, or published, or fed upon, in August of 2007 because my internet searches never showed anything, maybe I didn't research enough, who knows. I do know that after spending some time here and on Renn Tech, I learned about it and I did stress in a major way. I pestered the hell out of the service manager. He insisted that although they knew about the issue, they had never actually had any in their shop. LOL - he finally got pissed at me and said "look - you paid good money for a CPO car - go out and drive it like you want to blow it up and if it blows up you'll get a crate motor installed for free". So - I pretty much followed his advice and darn, I should have known, the motor has not yet blown up (fingers crossed) and the CPO has long since expired. I put 11k miles per year on the 996 alone. So - I don't think all 996 owners are of the breed you describe, but then again, not all 996's blow up as soon as the new owner drives away. As soon as I can find my "lucky" meter I am heading to the casino - have to find a way to get that GTS so I can put all of this IMS stuff behind me. P.S. - if I had it to do over again and knew about the IMS prior to purchase - I honestly believe I would have purschased the car anyway. There isn't much I've enjoyed in my life that hasn't come with known risk. Let's all drive and enjoy.

Hummmm... - I was after an air-cooled, got caught up in the chase, blu-***** aching, $15,000 996 with the re-man engine and bit on it, no PPI. Am I a f*ckin idiot, ask my wife & friends. Do I flat love this car and will work through any issue that arises? Absolutely. If you are foolish enough to buy one of these cars for ANY reason other than you want one and nothing else will do, you deserve what you get... If the motor takes a dump tomorrow, I will place a call to Cleveland, GA and weigh my options, if this sort of thing bothered me, I would enjoy driving my wife's Prius.

You didn't meet me, that's for sure.

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OP, could you please enlighten us on just exactly how many of these "used 996 owners" have you met? 3? 5? 10? 50? 100? I just can't envision that you have met enough of them to be statistically representative to support the statement srongly suggesting none of the used 996 owners knew what they are getting themselves into. Yes my used 996 Cab with the hardtop was priced right for me and it does look cool and it's my toy car when I decided the 928 just didn't fit my liking even though that was the car I started lookin as the toy car. This 996 cab needed tires, it needed a good polishing, it didn't come with the owner's manual(!) and at some point in the near future I will have the LN IMS bearing installed and likely getting the AOS and clutch done at the same time, and oh yes I did know of the IMS, RMS, cylinder crack issues, and Rinnlist.com before I committed in buying this particular car, while I have been wreching my own cars for the last almost 30 years, I knew I didn't know enough about Porsche cars or the 996 specifically, so a thorough PPI was performed by the top independent shop in the area with lots of recommendations, including from my dentist! BTW, who really "needs" a Porsche 911/996/997 etc.? These cars are not necessary to go to work or grocery shopping with, whoever buying these cars do so because it is unique, rare, status symbol, fun, enjoyable, so why do all the "used 996 owners" get stereotyped as clueless exotic car owner wanna-be?

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If your engine code looks like this... M96/0*ATxxxxxxxx and the replacement was done in late 2005 or later... your IMSB may not be replaceable. Unfortunately the only way to know for certain is to view the IMSB bearing/flange.

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Nice story with a happy ending. As you probably know, the LN Eng retrofit is not a cure--it is an alternate to the approach chosen by Porsche. I have been unable to secure the data that compares the failure rate of the sealed (factory) bearing versus the LN Eng open race bearing. I hope you enjoy many trouble free miles with whichever IMS bearing you are running!

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Six. Not a statistically significant sample size. Clearly, none of them knew what they were getting into. They were "clueless" to use your term. Even within this thread you see 996 owners who are yet confused about IMSB--this in spite of the usual complaints that this topic has been beaten to death.

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Probably not. I have not met any 996 owners that have heard of rennlist.

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Perhaps this is Porsche's fault! What cars out there have such a major issue that warranted (rightfully or wrongfully) this much attention where the engine can self-destruct if/when the IMS bearing fail? This is recognizing that many 996 are still running just fine with the OEM IMS bearing, and some with well over 100K miles as two of the 996s I saw supposely were, but there certainly are enough 996 engines lost due to this cause as the internet and web have allowed the rest of us to glean into the higher than expected IMS failure occurances. Most, if not all people buy a modern car expecting not much will go wrong if they just followed the mfg suggested maintenance schedule, especially for critical items such as timing belt on interference engines, but to the best of my knowledge the IMS bearing has not been identified by Porsche as one of those items under the normal maintenance schedule. I also understand there are 5 chains internal to the engine to drive the IMS and valve trains that need to be replaced at some point in time, but hopefuly not for a very long time unless engines are reported blown with timing chains issues! It seems Porsche is just keeping quiet and replacing the IMS induced blown engines under warranty rather than coming up with a proper solution and offering a recall and extending the warranty. Honda was in a similar situation with the auotmatic transmission of their V6 engines in the early 2000 to mid 2000s, it was under-designed where one of the gear set would overheat and break making a total mess of the transmission. Honda tried very hard to just pay to repair/replace the dead transmissions and not offering any recall or post warranty good-will repairs, eventually enough people documented the occurances and complained an US government agency (FTC IIRC) stepped in, telling Honda either to make this right for the owners or "we'll see you in court", Honda backed down, came up with an oil jet retrofit kit, and extended the warranty to (IIRC) 10 years and much higher mileage limit. Doesn't look like Porsche will be doing that any time soon though ..........

I bought my first p-car, an '80 911SC, on a whim...great car. I bought my first and second 993s on a whim, too; both were great cars. I bought my '99 996 cabrio w/hdtp on a whim, too; another great car. After 25 years of 911 ownership, I don't have a problem with those who buy on a whim. There's room in the tent for everybody. Finally, after meeting P-car owners of all vintages, cars and owners (!), over the years, I have not discerned any major differences across groups in re. technical knowledge, brand enthusiasm, or whatever. relinuca

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So I understand... even though it is a 3.4 motor with a case designed for the older style IMS bearing they retooled the cases on newer 3.4 replacement motors to use the newer bearing? I did not think Porsche would find it cost effective to retool the older 3.4 case design like that... FYI, I had an IMS failure on my 1999 996 so I know how painful it can be. Did the L&N IMS upgrade on both my 2000 Boxster (original single row bearing was in bad shape!) and on my current 2001 996 (dual row bearing looked to be perfect go figure) so I am a happy customer of this solution.

Yes, but there was no re-tooling involved.. In 2006 with the 997 the IMS was updated, When Porsche did this they changed EVERYTHING to the newer style bearing. This would include if someone bought a new engine for a 997 Boxster 2.5 engine in 2006. Porsche does not like having multiple components in use at once, when the new bearing was developed a global change occurred between all engines, new, and reman.. Once again, no re-tooling.. They simply threw the newer IMS in at assembly time, its a seamless integration.. Hell, we can remove the new style IMS and bearing and back date it to as eary as a 2001 arrangement, or can use a 2008 bearing in a 2001, they share the same IMS drive on the crankshaft. Porsche would have had to continue making the old style arrangement to keep the 06 and newer 3.4 engines using it. The 997 or these bearings are not special. Single rows are 1/2 as durable as dual row bearings, but that doesn't mean the dual row is any better- they fail too.. In closing, if you have a new or reman engine made post 2006 it has the 997 style bearing, NO MATTER what displacement or application it fills.

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I learned about this when I called LN Eng to get a referral for a local mechanic to do the IMSB upgrade.

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If you don't mind me asking, where are you taking your 996 for the "upgrade"?

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Amen to that!

*changing the channel* Damn, another commercial.

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AGREED!

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Good reply. My wife bought mine 4 months ago with 45000 on it as a 70th birthday suprise. I have driven it daily nothing less than 2000 revs onwards for 5000 miles (now 50000). Changed my own oil and filter and more important than anything, cut open the oil filter to check for silver bits. Clean as a whistle. My mind is clear. I have a great car and am going to run it as porsche intended it to be run. No easy driving. Higher revs than normal driving. 17 miles to the gallon is good to me. I have a warranty purchased at the time of buying the car. Glad I had. Had a built up transmission fitted last week on the warrenty. Original was noisy I thought but never driven a 911 porsche before so didnt really know. Got a Porsche mechanisc to check it. Now it sounds nice and quiet with the top up. Runs as sweet as a nut (English saying). Why live in the wreckage of our futures. It hasn't happened yet. Live each day as though it is your last. One day we will be right.

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Congrats! I love your attitude but 17mpg!?!? Where can I get some of that?! I'm averaging about 13.5-14mpg on a tank and I'm really not pushing it hard at all. Most of mileage is around town but is this something I should be concerned about? I figured my Volvo gets about 15-16mpg doing the same commute so ~14mpg couldn't be that bad for the Porsche. My Saab gets about 30mpg. Maybe I'm driving the wrong car on a daily basis. -Eric

My pre-purchase inspection was a track day at Watkins Glen with the previous owner. After we finished the second day I handed him a check and he handed me the keys. Worked out great, I highly recommend this method!

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I drive mine pretty hard on a daily basis and usually get 17-18 MPG. On the highway anywhere from 26-29. I'm surprised you're getting mileage ratings that low. It's not a huge difference but generally the only time I see something in that range is: a) at the track b) right after I fill up, reset my mileage counter, and shift and the redline for the next few stoplights. Soon thereafter though I get back to the higher ranges

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I'm sure everyone has their own definition of what it means to drive a car "hard" but I don't think I qualify as pushing the car that hard on anyone's scale. Maybe its my route? Just too short and too much local driving? According to Bing, my total commute door to door is only 4.9 miles -- about 2.1 miles local roads (including a school drop off), 1.8 miles on the Parkway and then 1 mile of local road to my office. Rough commute, I know. I'm sure I'm killing some gas waiting to get in and out of the school lot but I don't race off the lot at redline and my quick jaunt on the Parkway is packed with other commuters moving at about 50-60mph. Would anything else contribute to the low mileage? I'm not sure which model you have but does a C4 typically get materially worse mileage (on average) than a C2? Maybe I'm enjoying the top down or listening to the exhaust too much. -Eric

Eric, I'd reset your mileage then take a 20 mile or so drive pretty much nonstop and see where it is. A 5 mile repeted stop and go is going to show poor mileage no matter what your driving.

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Not that I would fret over the mileage for the fun factor of this car, but I've gotten anywhere from 18 MPG this last tank 'cause I let a few friends have some fun with the car to as much as 24 MPG on a highway trip.

J beed Keep enlightening the ignorant 996 owners. I am sure they are much happier after hearing THE WORD from on high. Did you ever find that perfect 996?

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No, but not to worry, his mom lets him borrow her Olds Cutlass whenever he needs it.