What is an overev?

Will hitting the revlimiter setoff a range1 overev? I have read that a missed shift will cause a range 2 correct?

Yes to the first question. In most cases, yes to the second question.

To add to infanterene remarks, technically speaking an overrev is range 4 or higher on a DME report. The most common way of triggering a true overrev is when downshifting.

fast1. The 996's and 986 have only 2 over rev ranges. The 997 & 987 models have 6 ranges.

That suck I already hit the revlimiter shifting from 1-2.

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That's nothing to worry about.

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Agreed. Range 1 over revs are nothing to worry about. However, Range 2 over revs can become an "oh ****" moment.

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yeah, like going from 6th to 1st...maybe?

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What are their 6 ranges?

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Uhmm Ray...... I would guess they are numbered 1 through 6. OK, you probably were asking for a little more detail per range, so here it is. Rev limiter ranges for 997 cars (excluding GT3 & GT3 RS) Range 1 - RPM Range 7,300 - 7,500 Range 2 - RPM Range 7,500 - 7,700 Range 3 - RPM Range 7,700 - 7,900 Range 4 - RPM Range 7,900 - 8,400 Range 5 - RPM Range 8,400 - 9,500 Range 6 - RPM Range 9,500 - 11,000

Cool, anyone every had a range 6 on an motor and had the motor live?

In just 250 miles or so driving my 01 it seem the 996 "spools up" quite a bit faster than my 993. I did not hit the rev limiter but got to 7,000 rpm very fast. I hit the rev limiter on my 993 only a few times.

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When a connecting rod is hanging outside of the block.......

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Or even worse from "3" to "R" while moving forward.

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Ray, I would imagine that not only would it die, the associated "death rattle" would cause it to burst through the rear deck lid and tumble down the roadway.

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OUCH! That would be nasty!!!!

I'm buying an 03 turbo with a report of 114 ignitions in level 2 over rev. The pre-buy inspection from a qualified Porsche dealer was fine other than this report. Should I be overly concerned?

That may only have been 1 missed shift. As far as I am concerned when purchasing a used car, 1 level 2 is enough. Even if the engine shows no ill effects, it is a possible symptom for other abuses, lack of care, or of the car being badly driven. I'd walk away from it.

My previous 993 and current 996 both cut out at around the redline, I am wondering how it is possible to get to these high revs?

What exactly are the two(2) over-rev ranges for the 996? I have seen the 6 ranges for the 997, with their corresponding RPM ranges, posted many times. However, I do not recall seeing a post which listed the 2 ranges for the 996/986 engines.

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They exist and it is real... level 1 is ok, level 2 will likely disqualify your warrenty

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+1. Type 1 is a bump against the rev limiter and measure "ignitions". Purely harmless, but does indicate to the mechanic just how "hard" the car has been driven around redline. A Type 2 indicates that the rev limiter (or throttle cut-off of the gasoline) could not contain/limit a high-RPM experience... By high RPM, I mean several thousand RPMs above redline. This is usually caused by so-called "money shifts" - 5th gear to 2nd gear (missing 4th). Personally, I would avoid ANY car with a Type 2 overrev. The car might still be running, but the engine did suffer abuse and is more likely to have problems over time. (Plenty of threads on this if you search) For those looking to buy 996s or 997s, I would recommend buying the $250 USB Durametrics ECU reader. Plugging into the OBDII connector in the driver's footwell with this "dongle" connected to your laptop will give you plenty of information on the car. It is fun to go plug it into cars on the showroom floor... I call it a cheap Pre-PPI... Oh - and for those interested in 997s. Porsche got "smart" and decided to add a level of subjectivity to help void warranties for abuse. The 6 ranges tracked on the 997 start well below red-line. This lets them see how hard you run the car BELOW the rev limiter so that they can cite patterns of abuse. Big brother is watching... I guess the only upside is for those looking to buy a used 997. At least we can transparently see how hard the car was driven based on the tracked data.... -Blake

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The higher revs come from "mechanical" over revs. The wheels are spinning and drive the transmission through a low gear to cause the motor to spin over it's rev limit. These over revs are not caused by fuel and ignition but rather by mechanical drive from the wheels. Make sense?

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Wow. Did not know this. What's constituted as abuse? For all this scientific data gathered, it seems the conclusions are highly subjective. Let's say I redline my car every time I drive the thing... is this abuse? Let's say I rarely redline the car... is this "abuse"? fun stuff to think thru. btw, i always slightly pause in neutral and use the proper shifting hand position to minimize margin for error. it would suck to type 2 over rev!

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I never questioned the fact that there are indeed over-rev ranges for the 996. I am aware of the fact that they exist, I believe most of us here are aware that there are over-rev ranges. My question was: What are the numerical values of the 2 over-rev ranges for the 996? I have seen the ranges posted many times for the 997 but I cannot recall seeing the ranges listed for the 996. Does anyone know what they are?

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So you are saying that a type 2 over-rev does not occur until you have exceeded the redline by several thousand RPM? I find this hard to believe. That is very interesting info. about the 997s data acquisition. Thanks.

Thank you UCrazyKid got it. So is there demerit points when going up in gears and we hit the "ignition" type cut out only?

The 996 (unlike the 997) records types of over rev, not ranges. That is why you haven't seen ranges reported. With the 996 the over rev types (1 and 2) refer to HOW the over rev occurred: 1 - throttle incurred over rev 2 - mechanical over rev. (as defined above) type 1 will not cause damage, that is why the fuel cut off exists prior to the point where damage will occur. type 2 can go from no damage (unlikely) to mild (float the valves) to severe damage (break a rod) I do not believe that the 996 keeps such detailed tattle info on the type 1 over rev as the 997. (i.e. no demerits) It just counts how many times it has occurred (not sure if it counts how many ignitions occurred during, i.e. how long)

Check out this link Over Revs

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Correct. It counts ignitions over how ever long the rev limiter is being touched. One can read this number with the Durametric Tool or the Porsche Diagnostic tool (can't remeber acronym). The Porsche Diasnostic Tool can reset the data to zero from memory, but the Durametric Tool can not... -Blake

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Wow, based on the information provided by the link either: 1.) There is a lot of misinformation being given on this thread/board OR 2.) The 996 TT has a different system for counting type 1 and 2 over-revs. P.S. The posters in the link, which is taken from a 996 TT board, claim that any over-rev which exceeds the 996 TTs redline, even by 1RPM, constitutes a type 2 over-rev. That is scary news for all of you 996 TT owners out there and possibly for us normally aspirated 996 owners as well.

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Correct ...that is why I posted the link.

what misinformation had been given? Am I missing something? An over rev is just that, 1 or thousands of RPM over the redline? The point is in level 2, is that the dme sees an over rev and tries to stop it from happening but cannot because the user put it in the wrong gear and the momentum of the car is now driving the engine past the redline. That is not good and raises the flag on reliability of the engine. Wether it is a TT or N/A an over-rev is just that.

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What misinformation? You're kidding, right? Not to single him out, but UCrazyKid's posts on this thread give a very different view of what constitutes a type 2 over-rev when compared to the explanation given in the link. Not to mention the fact that the numerous other similar threads on Rennlist contain differing info. This is not an issue where opinion is the deciding factor, there is a set numerical value where the cars computer registers a type 2 over-rev. If there is contradictory information being given, which there is, then some of it is invariably misinformation. As far as I can remember, not one of the threads about over-revs on the 996 board mention that exceeding the redline, even by 1 RPM, constitutes a type 2 over-rev. If this is the case then those of use who drive our cars hard are most likely putting type 2s on the engine, which is a little scary. I always just assumed that type 2 over-revs were not registered until the engine exceeded about 7,500 - 7,700 RMP or so. Of course, all of this assumes that the information contained within the linked thread is correct.

I'd have to agree that the link sounds and looks authoritative, but lacks a certain credibility. It's one guy, quoting interviews with unknown "experts", going against what is reasonable to reasonable people.

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Actually your information is WRONG...or misinformation, sir. Read the link. A type II over rev. can occur without missing a shift (or putting it in the wrong gear). This will create a type II, but not the only way. The information in the link has been corroborated by tuners and there is actual data to back it up....so stop your conjecture.

I don't know, Statman. That claim by the link seems quite illogical. The logical thing is that type 1 means likely no engine damage. The engine was protected by the rev-limiter. Type 2 means there is likely engine damage. The rev-limiter was overwhelmed, which is what would happen if you mistakenly downshifted to 2nd when you meant to upshift to 4th after hitting red-line at 3rd. Or, it could also be because the rev-limiter was either disabled or the chip was messed with by, you know, tuners. Then it would also logically follow that these tuners will give propaganda to say that a level 2 over-rev can happen just by shifting normally and means nothing. Wait a minute, didn't you say the data was corroborated by, ah, tuners? No. I stand by what has been said before, and what sounds logical. Type 1 means the engine is probably OK. Type 2 mans the engine went significantly beyond the safe rpm range and may have sustained damage. Otherwise it would not make sense to make a distinction between the 2. Anything else is misinformation. BTW, red line for NA 996 is 7200 rpm . My tachometer says so, and my Porsche manual says so. Anyone want to argue with my 2 experts?

I agree with Palting. I know the 993 also has a rev limiter, I hit it a couple times by not shifting out of first gear in time. The gas is retarded to the engine and it looses RPM when you reach a certain point. I have not hit the rev limiter on my 996 yet but it seems the rev limiter on a 996 would work the same way as a 993; pretty basic computer technology now days. I have read about blown engines because of a bad shift on the track, I would understand that to be a type 2 event for a 996. It seems easy to understand how not all type 2 events are severe enough to blow an engine. It�s very plausible to have many Type 2 events while driving aggressively at high RPM's�that�s is not allowing the computer management system to retard gas flow before a severe RPM event takes place. The ECU on the 996 seems to record both events and is able to distinguish between the two. If the computer records a certain rpm without retarding gas flow...a type 2 event. But that's just a logical guess on my part how it works.

That link doesnt make sense whatsover... "Type 1 = hitting the stock 6750rpm limiter. Type 2 = ANYTHING over that 6750 rpm limit. It's that simple." I dont see any real data to back up that comment... You can believe this if you want. But if your car rev limiter works, it is impossible to go way pass redline at extended period of time... that is what the cuttoff is for and is a failsafe method for your car. The only way to run past your limiter at extended periods if you are in the wrong gear. The DME can easily detect this over rev based on speed and rpm... then it is flagged by the dme. Go ahead an try it, see if you can reach 7800-8000 rpm... not likely. I bet you can do it downshifting in the wrong gear though. Believe what you want...

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First, the argument is not about at what rev the over-revs occur...just about how a type II can occur. This is the misinformation. The data has been collected by several folks that have recorded Type II's when there was NO mis-shift. We are not talking extended period of time...do you have any idea what the time is for 100 type II over revs to be recorded? Less than .1 second... Actually I am going to believe Stephen at IA (and also the technical expert for turbos for Porsche's website and Panorama magazine) and Kevin at UMW who rebuilds turbos and engines way before I believe you who have no credentials whatsoever. That goes for you too mr. Palting.

BTW...for the record, I don't care what you believe...if you want to vote (or agree with someone else) on what is technically correct, that is your prerogative. I just think you should be clear when you are stating an OPINION vs. FACT . Peace.

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OK. I'll bite. Point me to the right website or scan and upload what Stephen (Stephen who?) and Kevin (Kevin who?) had to say about type 2 vs type 1 over-rev. Then, we can talk about it. None of this name dropping. I want to see or hear directly from an acknowledged expert. I'm serious. I really want to hear from true experts and truly learn the facts. Not alleged quotes and what someone heard from someone who know someone who is an expert.

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A very fair response...

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RTF link... I'll do better...call them. I am of course slanted by the turbo side of things and perhaps this is the difference. IA, Stephen also see Stephen PCA UMW, Kevin Stephen Kaspar & Kevin Matwichuk...perhaps you should read more instead of typing. Stephen was in the thread I posted (porschePHD). Here is another link for you...notice I also challenged the original poster..... Rennlist over revs.

Like I said, these guys are tuners, statman. They talk about raising the rev limiter, erasing recorded type 2 over-rev records. I am not as savvy as they are, but they are talking about cheating on the car designed parameters. That is what they do. They may even be good at it. They can raise the rev limiter to allow the car to run into a level 2 over-rev with little effort. They like to say no biggie, that it's normal. But the chances of engine damage increase when you start pushing the engine beyond what the original engineers intended. I can definitely say this. I have inadvertently hit that rev limiter at full throttle in 1st and second gear in my car. I have recorded type 1 over-revs. I have never missed a shift. I have no recorded type 2 over-revs. Maybe I just don't hit the rev limiter often enough, or my car doesn't have enough power to generate momentum to reach a level 2 over-rev just by flooring it. Maybe I need to check more often, as this was 2 years ago and only 4 years on track. Maybe a turbo can hit level 2 just by flooring it because it has more power. I also definitely have this to say. A PPI is soooo important when you buy a used Porsche. Level 1 = no biggie. You can buy the car. Level 2 = beware!! The engine may have gone 1 rpm or 5000 rpm beyond designed limits. Go look at another car.

palting...no personal attack, but did you call them? I would so NO...so I give you the info and you ignore it....you have your opinions...and there are those who know...I will go with the ones who know. Peace out.

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The link you provided is from the 6 speed turbo board. The 996TT redline is lower than the standard 996, so those limits are incorrect for our cars. I'm not sure why Palting needs to make phone calls to prove your point. If you have proof for your position why don't you just post it? It seems to me he made a very fair offer a few post back and now you want him to do the legwork to prove your point? I don't get it.

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Congratulations, you can read. So you think type 2 is different for an NA than for a Turbo? Meaning you think a type 2 is not about hitting an RPM over a specified number? OK Ray I guess you speak for palting...he first questioned: I provided links to posts where both of these experts have responded to the type 2 question. Forget name dropping...he said he wanted to hear directly from them, so I posted their websites (Stephen is also the PCA designated turbo expert). What part of this don't you get? Yes I guess you don't get it...sorry don't know how to help your reading comprehension.

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Did I say that??? No, I said you posted a link to a different car with a different redline. I have said nothing (in this entire thread) about what causes a type 2. I only pointed it out because the 6,750 rpm trigger point that is listed in that thread is below the redline for these cars. I'm speaking for myself. Here is what he said. He asked for a website or a scan and upload of more info. I missed the part where he asked for a phone number? It seems to me he is asking for additional information to be posted in this thread. Perhaps Palting can speak up and clarify, as you and I seem to have read his post differently. You missed my point. What I don't "get" is why you feel the need to respond in such a hostile manner? I hope this post doesn't draw another angry response.

i like ray better than wross so go RAY! j/k

OK, I'll keep it civil, accept my appologies...I can't read what benji said, but I'm sure it added some true technical value. Here is my opinion: Over revs are a function of the rpms (certainly some cars have higher redline than others). Type 1's happen when you hit the rev limiter (DME controlled). I think we can all agree to that. The question is how do type 2's occur. It is when the rpms exceed some DME specified limit. How can this occur? Certainly we all agree that if you miss a shift and mechanically over rev (force rpms above the DME set limit) type 2's will be recorded. There are also cases (more than one) where type 2's are recorded by exceeding the DME limit without missing a shift (mechanical over rev). Perhaps wheel spin with high torque can accomplish this. The fact that type 2's have been recorded without a misshift and the possibility of this non-mechanical over rev condition have been confirmed by several technical experts. Cheers.

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Thanks for the response.... I don't really know what causes a type II. I had always heard that they were caused by a botched downshift which forces the engine past the limiter. However, the info you posted is very interesting. Thanks for posting it.

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what a nerd

Wow Ben, you have to quit swearing at Wross and calling his mother names!! Here is another thread of people trying to figure this out. I would tend to believe someone who has the car hooked up to a dyno and can get immediate feedback, like the previously mentioned tuners. It does seem like a shortcoming in the 996 design to have such a narrow margin between type I and type II. I guess we will all have to buy 997s. http://forum.pcasdr.org/forum/viewto...94f07a4fe7479f

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LOL!!

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That's a good one....but I'm not biting. I know many have been trying to figure this out for some time and it seems we can't get a straight answer from Porsche.

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That's why this forum is so much fun! We get to make our own deductions and formulate our own opinions since there are a lot of things Porsche doesn't give a straight answer to. We then get to express these opinions, and counter others. We may learn something, we may not. But it's fun!. Let the good times roll!! BTW, I still have not seen factual proof

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Please define factual proof I gave you 2 links with posters that have recorded type 2 revs without a mechanical misshift. Those posts included testimonies from 2 well respected technical experts. This is more data than you have supplied regarding your hypothesis. And yes this is quite fun

Factual = Based of fact. Several tests under controlled conditions yielding simillar results. Conclusions are clear and cannot be contested. Anecdotal = based on personal experience. Conditions vary, and can vary significantly. Can also de tilted towards bias of the tester. As in "I placed my car on a lift hooked to a dyno, floored it, and got level2". As in "I have inadvertently hit the rev limiter several times but never missed a shift and have only level 1, no level 2". Conclusions vary, and only opinions can be offered based on reasonable assumptions, not fact . All opinions could be wrong, or all could be right. The only thing definitely wrong is to opine that your opinion is the only right or real one, and that everyone else giving a different opinion is wrong and giving out misinformation. Fun, isn't it ?

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Funny you define factual by using the word fact....(the root)here is another one..."a piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred"(WordReference)...I can play with words too...and post the reference. This is of course unrealistic and improper testing (read about fractional and full factorials...experiments run in noisy environments). I will be happy to provide papers from world renowned Statisticians. This is also unrealistic, heck we still contest F=ma at the quantum level. How is it the information posted in this thread met any of the criteria you post here? Absolutely AGREE...that is why I posted the original link as it seems that most folks were posting their opinions as though they were truths (BTW a truth is different than a fact). Lastly, what really got me excited was your insinuating that the two gentlemen I referred to are guilty of changing the limiter in the DME ...Is misleading (unless you have first hand knowledge)...They are quite knowledgeable and respected and your comments were inflammatory. This is a blast, but I'm sure we're pissing off most readers....so I'll let you get the final post...enjoy.