Speed limits

Found this excellent article in CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayof...tes/index.html Just a few quotable points from the article: "The results were clear: "By and large, across the 50 states, there was no discernible effect from the higher limits," Yowell said. "Two or three states actually had a decrease in fatalities." Once speed limits are raised on interstates, drivers are more likely to get off the more dangerous two lanes and use the faster routes, Yowell said. Furthermore, the motorists traveling the fastest on the higher-speed interstates tend to be good at that kind of driving. The less competent drivers at high speeds tend to drive more slowly. While Yowell admits most states are well-intentioned, he's "not willing to accept that speed limits are solely a function of safety," he said. "They are a function of revenue generation as well. There have been cases of judges saying communities have to raise their speed limits because they were obviously being used to raise revenues and that's not a proper use of the law." And: "His research doesn't surprise Jim Baxter, president of the Waunakee, Wisconsin-based National Motorists Association. His organization had lobbied heavily for an end to the federal limits. Baxter's rule of thumb for computing the right speed limit is the traffic engineering standard known as the 85th percentile speed. That's the speed that 85 percent of motorists drive at or below. But it tends to be well above the speed limits that most jurisdictions set. With the speed limit set at that level, traffic tends to move smoothly, reducing the risk of accidents, Baxter said. If you put the limit below that speed, some vehicles are traveling far more slowly than the fastest drivers, creating the most dangerous conditions of all. Baxter argues that most drivers naturally tend to drive at speeds that suit the road conditions and their driving skills. St. Thomas is a case in point, albeit an extreme one. With its congestion and rugged terrain, the island is bereft of performance cars; many of the vehicles are older pickups, aging Japanese compacts and SUVs. The treacherous conditions restrict speeds far more effectively than any local law."

I vote for American Autobahn's!

Bravo, Palting. Baxter and the NMA do yeoman work!

Don't get me started on speed limits. In South Carolina, local municipalities can go to the interstate, change the speed limit in their jurisdiction from 70 to 55 for just a couple of miles, and sit there giving speeding tickets out. Some of the local towns are well known speed traps, where towns with less than 1,000 people will have a 1/2 dozen police cars staffed around the clock, sitting right under speed limit signs giving tickets. Be careful if you go to DE's at CMP in Kershaw. The local's have figured out they can write all the tickets they want to as cars and truck/trailers slam on brakes trying to go from 55 to 35. Anyway, I know this os OT, but speeding tickets are nothing more that some city's form of road tax, and it can have dramatic affects on peoples lives IMHO. Meanwhile, when's the last time you saw a ploice car doing the speed limit? I know some local police and can tell you, they get a real charge out of whipping the car around and stopping people and it has nothing to do with making our roads safer. I'll shut up...

I just moved to Baltimore from San Diego, and boy the speed limits on these roads are driving me crazy. Speed limits are 55mph on the 695, which I take to work everyday, and people actually only drive 55-60.. it's maddening!!!!! In San Diego, the traffic flowed at 80-85 in the left lane(s). In Baltimore, I feel like a speed-demon when I'm only going 70.

Our 'politicians' feel the need to protect us at every step whether we need their help or not, and speed limits seem to reflect that misinformed attitude. Raise our speed limits...please!!

I seem to get one speeding ticket every 5 years or so. As it happens, I got one 3 weeks ago leaving Sedona Arizona going 10MPH over, while driving my BMW. For some reason, it didn't bother me too much, because having owned my first 911 for just 4 months now, I just accepted it as the way it is, as I know I've done much worse on my new to me 911. I was all but tempted to tell the officer "I am so grateful I got this on my BMW today; you wouldn't even imagine what I was doing on my 911 last week..." Many Arizona highways have a speed limit of 75MPH, and that is a reasonably comfortable range to drive in. If anything, I dislike vintage rice burners with poor tires going by at 90MPH, as I've seen two sudden blow outs in the past year that could have easily cost not only their lives but of those of drivers near them. On the other extreme, I can't imagine major highways that go on and on in the East Coast set at 55MPH. That seems like idling.

I know this post is OT, and it will probably get moved to the OT board shortly by John. Thought we at the 996 board can enjoy the article a bit to ourselves first. I always knew that safety was not an issue with speed limits, and now I know that there is a study that actually proves it. It also came as a surprise that some judges have actually mandated that the speed limits in their community be raised because the limits were used to raise revenues and that was improper use of the law.

"The less competent drivers at high speeds tend to drive more slowly." and in the left lane!

+1 Marv! People will sit in the left lane and let folks fly by on the right! I haven't been on the Autobahn, but have heard they are quick to give tickets for left lane traffic going too slow...I love that!!

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+1,000,000

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Not tickets very often - they just don't do it! Lots of training and respect for the road from the begining. There used to be a law that if you were hit from behind and in the left lane on an unlimited autobahn YOU were at fault. That has been repealed. There are very few politzi on the autobahn - regulation is mostly done by camera. If you have a witness in the car you can take pictures and turn someone in to the politzi for driving in the right lane. A hold over from Gastapo times...

In my experience, the Polizei in Germany were less Gestapo than the police in Podunk.... I remember the first time flying by the Polizei on the Autobahn and my instinct was to slam on the brakes.... Not only does slow traffic stay to the right, but get this: people actually use their turn signals! Irony of note: Germany banned the "flash to pass" (aka Licht Hupe / light horn) many years ago because West Germans were getting a little too aggressive on all the East German Trabants after the wall came down....

Speed limits??? We don't need no stinkin' speed limits!!!

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So, you've been to PA then? Speed limits = taxation plain and simple. Politicians are addicted to the revenue generated by speeding tickets and it's slam dunk to sell cracking down on speeding to the less educated masses.

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Not sure this is entirely true - I think it's also about the lowest common denominator. Here in the US, a driver's license can be obtained by having your father teach you to drive, followed by a 10 minute test PA's finest. In Germany, many hours of professional instruction are required. Also, have you seen some of what has presumably passed state inspections here in PA - scary. Then there is the state of our roads - again frightening. Considering all that, I agree that speed limit enforcement is revenue driven Stefan

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Agreed - poor quality driving instruction and dumbing down driving rules to the lowest common denominator are a large part of it. My CA driving test was literally a drive around the block. I was disgusted at how easy it was... from there I've transferred that single road test into a Massachusetts and an PA license... just goes to show the damage that poor quality instruction and testing protocols with low standards can do. It's easy to get a license from Podunk, MS and b e woefully equipped to drive anywhere in the world. I never thought I'd be an favor of having a driving test as difficult as the one I passed in the UK as a teenager, but I really do believe that high quality instruction and high standards for testing do translate into safer roads.

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I get to Germany often and drive the autobahns. It works. I feel safer there driving 100mph ormore. Traffic tends not to bunch up since NO ONE ever sits in the left lane. And NO ONE ever passes on the right under normal circumstances. But where there are conditions that require a slower speed, they do put up speed limit signs and EVERYONE slows down in those sections. I don't recall ever seeing the police pulling anyone over for speeding on the autobahn. They leave that up to the speed cameras, but they tell you where they are and it always obvious why the speed is restricted in those sections.

Wanna hear something funny about SC? About 10 years ago, there was an uproar about people just paying a few extra $$ to get their car to pass state inspections instead of shops actually doing inspections. So guess what our brilliant politicians did to "solve" the problem? They eliminated state inspections! So now we have logging trucks going 90 mph on blad tires and 30 year old pieces of crap w/no mufflers, and the cops pull over $50,000++ cars for speeding 46 in a 35 or better yet, 66 in a 55 on the Interstate!! Unbelievable

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My wife went to school in Michigan, and remembers many cars making four tracks when driving in snow. Stefan

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Hey El Torrente - I'm looking to move to Baltimore in the next few weeks - do you drive in the city?? Heard a few bad things about the town - not too sure whether to buy a DD or just go with the p-car??

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It depends upon where you live and park. There are many areas ib Baltimore that I would avoid at all costs, much less park my car there. The biggest issue I have with Baltimore is that it's part of MD which is one of the most highly taxed States in the country. I'll be exiting this State as soon as I get the opportunity. Also with the new governor MD has, look for the proliferation of red light cameras and speed cameras.

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Speed is only an issue when some eight ball tries to go faster than the majority of cars on the highway. When that happens you see the guy change lanes every 20 - 30 seconds to move up a car or two. One guy passed me earlier in the week, and during the next 15 minutes I watched this jerk change lanes at least 20 times. Many of the passes were extremely risky. When we exited the highway, this guy was no more than ten cars ahead of me on the exit ramp. So when all was said and done, this guy may have cut his commute time by 10 seconds, but antagonized numerous commuters in the process. On the other hand if everyone is travelling at 80 MPH, I see no added risk as long as they are driving cars that are properly maintained: good tires, brakes, and suspension systems.

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I've seen some areas that were down-right scary.. It all depends on where you live/work, I guess. I live in Perry Hall (it's also listed as Nottingham), and it's nice and quiet and seems like a nice area. I work in Timonium, and that, too, seems like a safe area. Both cities I mentioned are on the North side of Baltimore. Coming from San Diego, basically everywhere in Baltimore doesn't really compare in terms of general cleanliness, crime, and how nice things are in general. I'm getting used to it, though. I would probably get a DD if I was going to work in the inner-city and couldn't park in a secured parking garage.

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Thanks guys - much appreciated. I'm moving from NY, so I'm looking forward to hitting some of those 'country roads'! Work will be in Fells point and there is a secure garage - maybe I get a dd and use the p-car on those sunny Friday commutes! If it all works out for me - are there any p-car events / drives etc that happen?? I'll be out in the 'burbs so I'll need something to keep me sane!

There are some fantastics roads west of Baltimore. Less than 30 minutes from the Inner Harbor there are hundreds of miles of beautifully paved twisty turny roads just begging for a Sunday morning blast. Ask me how I know.

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I was going to ask about this myself before Jayv911 mentioned it. Can you please give us directions on how to get to a couple of your favorite roads? I haven't been out of the city in a month now, and I'm in need of some curves and open spaces..

I feel they are missing the biggest problem (even though some areas sould have higher speed limits for sure). The left lane law. The biggest causes of accidents is inattentiveness, imparement, and DIFFERENCES in speed. If people were ticketed as much for hanging out in the left lane as they spend on 10+ speeders there would be a lot less accidents. Then (and only then) would a strict "no passing on the right" also work. There is a reason there are fewer serious accidents in Germany than here in the U.S. Also, mandatory skill checks for a drivers licenses wouldn't be a bad idea... assuming they're even legally in the Country....

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And speed limits only encourage the left lane bandits to think they are within their rights to sit in that lane and bottle up traffic. Drive any interstate and just watch how the traffic is bunched up because of one or two cars forming a moving road block.

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On many of the roads with 55MPH limits, you'll be passed on the right and left if you're doing less than 70-75. It's all BS. Even the state troopers cruise at about 75.

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You know, I never cared that much about speeding tickets when it only involved a fine. (Kinda' like a "Ticket to Ride") But this BS with insurance surcharges, it gets ridiculous! I've had radar detectors since they put that into effect MANY years ago. If they want the revenue, then lets drop the surcharges and keep the speeding tickets reasonable. Say about a buck for each mph. (Not likely to happen)

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I agree with you. It's the insurance that gets you. As for the radar detector - I've actually stopped using mine, as it made me drive more slowly and be more paranoid. I found that if I just reverted back to using the observational skills that I used before the radar detector, then I had more fun driving, drive at a higher speed and more importantly drive more consistently, rather than reacting to every annoying beep out of the detector.

I find that detectors aren't that great on the highways where I live, but they really pay off on the local road. I live in a somewhat rural area and the usual limits are between 35 - 45 mph. My detector has paid for itself countless times over when I'm doing for example: 45 in a 35 zone (no one is around, no driveways, etc.) and a state trooper or a county sheriff just happens to be driving towards me with his radar on. With out the detector, he may pull me over at that speed. With the detector, I'm doing 35-37mph. Just my $0.02. Eric

Well, that's the problem here in PA is that the detectors are only good on highways and state roads, as the local police are not allowed to use radar and rely upon VASCAR - consequently we have white lines painted all over the roads.

The major problem with speed limits is that you never know what they really are. The true speed limit is whatever the policeman on the spot feels like enforcing on that particular day. Especially on the interstates where you normally cruise along at 70-75, you never know when there is going to be some righteous officer who is going to enforce the posted limit.

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To tell you the truth, half the fun for me is turning down a road I've never been on before just to see where it takes me. To that end, take I-70W to at least Rte. 32. The further west, the more rural. Bring a decent map or GPS to consult if you get really turned around. I like Rte. 97 south to Olney or north to Westminster. Then I just head west. There's also a Rennlister named "bull30" who is organizing a drive and dine scheduled for March 30. Ken really searches out some great back roads.

Since I've gotten GPS, I've begun actually using the trip computer (have the built in porsche/audi/benz ones on my cars but never use), and the one thing I've found is that the "selective speeding" that we all do (moving with the flow of traffic interspersed with short bursts to high speed to pass) delivers absolutely no benefit to "making time" in most metro area highway systems, particularly in states like California, NY/NJ/CT where you're bound to slow down due to rubbernecking, accidents, road work, etc at some point. The luck of the draw exiting back on to surface streets, light timing, fuel stops, parking etc, is far more impactful to true "average speed". Doesn't mean I don't like to get up and go out there (I once got a ticket when Montana had no daytime limit), but unless I'm going pretty far, the difference between today's posted limit and the fastest I'm willing to go with all these pickups with junk flying around in the bed and little hondas zipping by on bald tires and colombo cars is not enough to impact my personal driving much in terms of "time to destination". I figure we all intuitively know this, but the GPS really put it in perspective for me because it's accurate. I remember after a week in LA looking at it and the top speed logged was so high I almost smacked myself, but the average: 4mph without stoppage time (and about 8mpg on the porsche trip computer) The whole speed limit justification is just nonsense from a safety standpoint. I have a lot of trouble believing that in 60 years our cars are still as dangerous as they were when the highways were built, and while there will always be a handful of truly dangerous drivers out there, a lot of modern cars are fine at even 90mph+. Revenue is a crutch and a key driver to these haphazardly posted and enforced limits in many areas of the country, and it's silly because it generally isn't even true municipal revenue but often goes straight to the PD traffic pool's budget. I think trucks, including SUVs and other light trucks, should be relegated to lower speeds thn cars though, if only because the risks of failure or rollover from sudden dynamic changes, wind, tire blowout, even braking increase so dramatically with speed. The novel solution, which I would gladly pay a fat flat fee per year to use, would be to have a left lane that required an ez-pass type radio device to enter, with no limit, similar to elevated toll roads in certain parts of asia but utilizing our existing infrastructure. Ticket anyone who enters that lane without a pass, and enforce a strict minimum speed limit. Of course there are challenges a plenty to anything like that (left lane exits, highway divisions etc) but I mean come on they came up with HOV lanes. Give me those! I might fly a lot less if I knew I could average 120+MPH over distance on a major interstate for a couple grand a year.

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+1

HT, What were you doing to get a ticket during that situation? I do recall seeing an article about some test drivers for Mercedes who received tickets for following too closely at 100+mph.

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Cool thanks. I have a GPS, and I'll go exploring in that area - sounds like fun!

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too high, 150+, clocked us at 140 something, was 1994 i believe