GT3 Ceramic Brakes

Who has placed there order with PCCB?

From what I know, if you're going to track your GT3 at all, don't get the PCCB. I know people who have it on their GT2 and Turbo and they overheat terribly and they get ripped to shreds after only a couple thousand miles. Be forewarned, Grant GT3 on order with Steel brakes

Not me. I can replace a lot of rotors, pads, and calipers for $8,150. Karl

PCCB is superior to steel in every way. I ordered them for a June build.

Aren't ceramic brakes supposed to have better heat handling characteristics than ordinary brakes? Surely people don't buy it only for the weight advantage.

I was speaking with a friend who has a GT2 and took it to the track last year. He had all kinds of fading. He spoke with Porsche Motorsport and they told him there was some bad pads put out last year. They sent him some new ones, which are to correct the problem. My problem is I can�t drive his car on the track until May and I'm placing my order on Thursday. I definitely agree you can buy a lot for 8K, but if they really do work as they state you can�t beat them. How many of you guys are using your cars on the track? Are you racing or doing DE? I think if your going to race it you need to go with them.

You guys need to do some research. Go to <a href="http://www.rennteam.com" target="_blank">www.rennteam.com</a> and search for the brakes. You'll find several of our European friends who have them, and hate them. One guy has the steel setup after going through 2 sets of PCCBs. The bottom line, is that if you track them, they are not there yet. There's a reason that the GT3 Cup and GT3 RS come with steel brakes... I did not order them on my GT3. Roy

RWO thanks for the tip

I'm not racing my car, I have a track car for that. I will probably do a few DEs, just to see what it will do. I ran the old 4 piston GT3 steel brakes on my 996 for 3 years of DEs and never had any problem at all with them. Karl

Except when chasing a stock 996 into turn 1 at VIR.... I agree with Karl. No way the ceramic brakes are anything but a "cosmo" option at this point in development. If you are serious about saving weight, get a 6 or 8 piston Brembo kit with floating rotors and aluminum hats. Close to the same weight, less$$$, better brakes, period. Chris Brown

If PCCB is a "cosmo" option, why is it standard on the V10 GT? It's the cost that fosters envious criticism, not the Porsche/SGL brake technology.

gt3jack, Maybe you can help us understand why it does not come on the GT3Cup or GT3RS. Perhaps you should go read the reviews of it, by people that own and track it, before making statements like "the cost that fosters envious criticism, not the Porsche/SGL brake technology."

I agree, Roy. PCCB is on the Carrera GT as much for marketing reasons as for engineering reasons. PAG has made a big deal about PCCB being the ultimate in brake systems, and maybe one day it will live up to the hype. But in the meantime, if you are building a $400K Supercar, from a marketing standpoint, it better have your ultimate brake system on it, whether there is a sound technical reason or not. The issue with PCCB is not whether people can afford it, if you're in the market for a $100K+ sports car, I doubt if $8K one way or the other makes much difference. I think the issue is more one of value. What most of us are saying is we don't see $8K worth of value in PCCB, so we didn't order it. If gt3jack or anyone else sees it differently, it's no big deal. As the man says - "Youse pays your money and youse makes your choice". Karl

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by RWO: <strong>gt3jack, Maybe you can help us understand why it does not come on the GT3Cup or GT3RS. Perhaps you should go read the reviews of it, by people that own and track it, before making statements like "the cost that fosters envious criticism, not the Porsche/SGL brake technology."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">The reason it doesn't come on an factory race car is simple. It is not allowed due to the rules of the ACO. It has nothing to do with it efficacy. Carbon brakes are amazingly light and heat resistant, but not very good when cold. My guess is that the PCCB just needs a more aggresive pad, but that would mean it would need warm up time, which means poor street performance.

If I'm going to spend $100k on a performance sportscar, I wouldn't flinch at the idea of paying 8% more for a substantial improvement in handling and braking. However, from everything I know, the extra 8% buys you slightly better handling (from reduced unprung weight), but far worse braking (in terms of stopping distance, heat resistance, and wear). That is unacceptable and I'd be willing to pay 8% more for the steel brakes. That is a system which cannot be compromised on a car like this. It is obviously not ready for prime-time. Maybe they'll develop it further and it will be the system to have (and then we can upgrade), but for now, Steel is the way to go.

PCCB are great IF: Set/aligned/installed perfectly including proper ventilation (major problem for upgrade on Turbo) Pads good from Porsche Warm up time -- In other words, they are great under precise conditions. However, there are many excellent steel aftermarket options that offer a good weight savings and are more bullet-proof. If I were upgrading, I'd do one of those personally.

Since the Porsche Cup is a Porsche only series, I would be surprised if they could not make that change if they wanted to. I'm not an expert but doesn't the ALMS and Le Mans allow composite brakes in vertually every class (I'm prettys sure when I looked to purchase the Le Mans winning Viper a few years back it had composite brakes on it?) Why would PCCB not be allowed? Personally, I think PCCB has promise but is not there yet. Most of the reviews I have read, by testers that use hard data to support subjective statements, do not support that PCCB is better than the steel setup. In addition, the users who have put a lot of miles on the setup, have had more than their share of issues with it. When it's ready, I'll get it. Until then, I'll stick with the proven stuff. (I actually ordered it for my TT but it would have delayed production by 3 months so I took it off the order, now I'm glad I did). My big issue was the "envious" statement. Anyone who orders a $100K car can afford it if they want it. My issue is what is the performance improvement for the money? I don't think the reduction in unsprung weight outweighs the reported problems with the system. As Karl said, to each his own Roy

The Carrera GT's ceramic brakes and pads are not the same as the TT/GT2. And the ceramic brakes on the similar Enzo seem to work great.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by RWO: <strong>Since the Porsche Cup is a Porsche only series, I would be surprised if they could not make that change if they wanted to. I'm not an expert but doesn't the ALMS and Le Mans allow composite brakes in vertually every class (I'm prettys sure when I looked to purchase the Le Mans winning Viper a few years back it had composite brakes on it?) Why would PCCB not be allowed? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yes they could run them on a Cup car, but even if they were better it doesn't matter because everyone has the same set up, so why spend the $$$. It is a driver's series not one to show how much faster Porsche is than another marque. The rules are different based on the classes. The Viper did have them but they are a GTS class car. The ACO does not allow them in the GT cars, period. It is most likely a cost issue, a set of carbon rotors costs several thousand dollars. I am not positive but I think they are not allowed in the GTS cars anymore due to cost issues.

I do agree, value could be an issue with PCCB. Value is the reason why I will own a GT 3, and not a X 50, or GT 2. We all want the best there is..., and I believe PCCB is it. If it does not turn out to live up to expectations, we have 4 years to make our case before Porsche. I do detect however, some who discount PCCB on cost or value, may have no problem ordering interior cosmetics which belong...elsewhere.

GT3Jack - In terms of making your case before Porsche if PCCB don't perform, I can tell you that Porsche's response to several complaining customers has been to retrofit the Steel brakes.

Grant, What number is "several complaining customers" of the total sold? If the board is saying most PCCB orders are not performing as advertised. Then I will change my order! But it must be based on fact. Nonetheless, I do thank the board for their input.

I'm aware of 3 that I talked to on the Rennteam board. Granted 3 is not very many, but then again, there are very few cars equipped with PCCB's out there and only a fraction of those on Rennteam. I haven't heard any positive comments from people who track their cars with PCCB (aside from the benefit of lower unsprung weight).

I have a GT2 and the ceramics perform flawlessly on the track (Laguna Seca), they are noisy on the street though! When I order my GT3 it will have ceramic brakes as well

It good to hear somebody is happy with PCCB, especially at a track like Laguna Seca which is hard on brakes. Apparently ceramics have a lower coefficient of friction and heat transfer than steel. So reported PCCB problems should be of no surprise. See this Rennteam <a href="http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=996turbo&Number=3502&page=4&view=collapsed&sb=5& o=all&fpart=1" target="_blank">post</a> for pics and commentary. I have had lots of brake trouble at DE events. Even with Cup car brakes, the GT3 may yet have problems on track because it is so much heavier. For now, I am going to stick with steel. As soon as the Cup cars run PCCB sucessfully for a season then I will consider an upgrade.

Brakes are a system with lots of parts that all have to work together to get maximum use without any problems. I had GT3 brakes on my 996. I used SRF fluid, Pagid Orange pads, and brake cooling ducts from Cargraphic. I bled the brakes every 4-6 track days and changed the fluid twice a season. I threw away the pads when they got less than half thickness. And I replaced rotors 2 times a year (front) and once a year (rear). I ran 45-50 days a year of DEs with this combination and I used the brakes hard. I never once had a problem or soft pedal in 3 years. And my 996 was at least 100 lbs heavier than the GT3. I don't care what "miracle" brakes you put on a car. If you don't keep them cool, use the right pads and fluid, and properly maintain them, you will have brake issues, if not outright failure. But if you treat them right, even the stock 996 brakes are very, very good. If you don't believe me, ask any E46 M3 owner who has tracked their car. Karl

My friend has an X50 with ceramic and it never squealed or provided any problems. I am ordering my GT3 with them also.

I'm happy to hear some positive reports about the PCCB's at the track. And yes Karl, the Brembos that Porsche supplies are FAR superior to the brakes on BMW's. I can't believe that even the cool new CSL doesn't use Brembos. BMW brakes fade early and often at the track. Even Mitsubishi, Subaru, Chrysler, and Chevy are using Brembos now on some models.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by GrantG: <strong>I'm aware of 3 that I talked to on the Rennteam board. Granted 3 is not very many, but then again, there are very few cars equipped with PCCB's out there and only a fraction of those on Rennteam. I haven't heard any positive comments from people who track their cars with PCCB (aside from the benefit of lower unsprung weight).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I am one of the three Grant cites. I too have been trying to get a feel for the satisfied/dissatisfied ratio. I spoke with the person who must have been the very first customer with the PCCB system and got them well before the rest of us. His rotors were replaced by the dealer on their own initiative at 20,000 km. He also suffered heavy pad wear but not as heavy as my own. I make it a practice to check the brakes on the GT2�s that I see at N�rburgring (not as demanding as most short tracks but still hard on brakes in places). It isn�t uniform. Sometimes they are ok and sometimes they are not. It can even be the case that one rotor will look fine yet the other will not. And I�ve see cars where one or both rear rotors were bad but the fronts were ok (which is really strange as the rears get a lot less heat). Figure that bad rotors are being replaced at service under warranty and you have to wonder how many bad rotors are replaced before I ever see them. Also, the pattern on failed rotors looks quite different. Most seem to start chipping away around the drill holes. Mine seemed to loose fibres on all surfaces (front and rear though less so on the rear). The outside surfaces did not look that good but it was the inside surfaces that looked absolutely terrible. They became uniformly rough (worse than the feel of concrete). My personal opinion is that this is due to the fact that they keep the dust shield in place on the Turbo (the GT2 has no dust shield). Still, the difference in the conditions of the inside and outside of the rotors does demonstrate how poorly the ceramic rotors transfer heat. It seems that the situation varies greatly. One factor might be differences in manufacture. But it is also obvious that different people use their brakes in very different ways even on the track. Someone can be fast and not destroy their brakes. Another might be slow and destroy his. It doesn�t seem that there is rime or reason to it. I suspect it is simply down to whether the rotors locally exceed a certain peak temperature or not. Certain drivers might get high short-term peak temperatures while others do not get the same peaks. This is pure speculation on my part. Another issue might be the high frequency pounding these rotors can get with the modern ABS systems. My brakes have seen a lot of ABS use. Pad wear seems to be very high on tracked GT2�s. I even saw one GT2 where the brake dust had packed so tightly into the rotors that it appeared that the rotors had not been drilled and were actually made of cast iron (they were smooth and shiny). The biggest complaint for GT2 owners seems to be brake noise. GT2�s came with the P90 pad. The normal solution for this is to go to the P40. This solves the problem. Turbos come with P40 pads. I hated these. They tended to be really soft. There wasn�t the bite that I am use to on the cast iron system with stock pads (and I understand that more aggressive pads yield much improved bite over the stock pads). They also yielded longer peddle travel which I really didn�t like. I wore away the front pads almost immediately (but not at the back where the wear rate seems much more reasonable). The P40�s were replaced with P90�s on my car. They were an improvement but not a fantastic improvement. They seemed no better at handling the heat. Bite and peddle travel were improved slightly and that felt better. Wear was better also but still not acceptable. In fact, wear for me on the street with both the P40 and P90 was really quite phenomenal. My car has gone though five sets of callipers. Many of them leaked fluid from the bleed nipples. This was said to be unheard of yet it still happened multiple times on my car. Both front and rear callipers were affected. The difference in unsprung weight seems noticeable to me. My car has been used on a lot of difficult roads. The lower unsprung weight might be a factor in the reason why I do not have bent wheel rims from such roads (which is common on European Turbos). But the biggest advantage by far for the ceramic system is the total inability to fade the brakes. The temperatures will just go up and up. They might destroy themselves but they will never fade. Obviously this is an advantage on the track. The latest solution for the pads is the P50. This has just been released and is said to solve the pad overheating problem. I have not yet had the opportunity to try these pads. See my report on <a href="http://www.rennteam.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=996&Number=8167" target="_blank">Rennteam</a> for more info on the pad issue. I�ve also heard that there might be a solution soon for the rotor overheating problem. The timetable I�ve heard means it won�t be available for the first deliveries of the GT3. Sorry but I cannot say more on this. One difference between the GT2 and the GT3 might be cooling. Carbon/Carbon needs massive amounts of direct cooling air. This is also the ultimate solution for the overheating ceramic brakes. The GT2 and Turbo get the same treatment as did the cast iron cars (with slightly larger scoops for the GT2). Hopefully the GT3 gets a lot more air than this. My personal opinion remains unchanged. Eventually this will be a great system. It is probably better suited for a road car than a track car. Road cars are less likely to see the heat which is causing all of the current problems and more likely to suffer pot holes and bad roads. But more so, the consumables on a cast iron system are very cheap. They certainly aren�t for the PCCB system. So unless you really need the very last tenth then stay with cast iron on a car that is seriously tracked (more than just a few fun DE events). Anyone seriously tracking a car with ceramics must upgrade the fluid to a high temperature brake fluid. My preference is Castrol SRF. It is probably not a bad idea for serious road use either. SRF is expensive but the advantage is the high wet boiling point which means that you do not need to replace the fluid every couple months. Stephen

Thanks for chiming in, Stephen! Lots of important info there. Please keep us up to date on the improvements to the system. Much appreciated, Grant

Thanks to everyone who had input regarding the PCCB for the GT3. Last Thursday my order was placed without the PCCB. The car will have a July build and a mid August delivery. I tried to keep it simple for the track but I had to personalize it a little. Here it is, Carrara White, black interior, black belts, aluminum dials, metal sills, thin aluminum look strip (3 pcs in the dash), leather sun visors (I could not deal with the plastic) and the ticker steering wheel. I decided not to go with the Xenon head lights because most likely the car will never be driven at night and I know the lenses will be broken on the track, so why spend the money. Once again thanks for the help.

Chip - I don't think you'll regret your decision about the PCCB, and when the system is perfected, we can both upgrade later ;-) -Grant 88 944TS 04 GT3 waiter

Chip, If it makes you feel any better, I had Xenon's on my 996 which saw at least 100 track days over 3 years. I had them covered with the 3M film and never had any cracks or even nicks. Lots of rubber to clean off but that's it. I wouldn't let that stop you from getting Xenon's if you want them. But if you're not going to drive the car at night, I guess it would be a waste of money. Karl

I thought those lights were covered with Lexan, which is bulletproof. They don't shatter, AFAIK, but maybe they could become pitted...

Actually you would shoot a Porsche in the rear if you had to put it down, wouldn't you? I wish they would mix some Lexan into the paint, I always have the sense I could strip the whole car to metal in one pass with an expired credit card. I have had bugs go to the primer.

Are they only inferior to standard discs in track conditions, or on street/spirited driving too?

They are not inferior under any condition. They are superior (as brakes), but not everyone's preference.

I think the PCCB's are inferior when they're totally cold and when very hot (they do not sink heat away from the calipers, pads and fluid the way steel does). They seem to work very well within a fairly narrow heat envelope.

That hasn't been my experience with them at Laguna Seca.

Apparently, the new GT3 will get the second generation and reportedly improved PCCB that addressed all the problems TT owners had with generation 1 , per RC at Rennteam - proving once again, it's never wise to get the first year/generation of any significant new Porsche technology. Next example will probably be their coming twin clutch sequential shifter system. <a href="http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=996&Number=8880&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=1&f part=1" target="_blank">Second generation PCCB </a>

Sounds promising. I'm certainly interested in upgrading to them once I'm convinced of their performance and longevity under a variety of conditions. Once the bugs are out, should be a very nice system. Hoping that the price will drop over time too...

i loved my gt2 pccb's and had no problems after bed in in hard street only use. i ordered my gt3 [july build] w/ pccb largely for the wieght loss.

take a set of these ceramic rotors to Pep Boys and ask to have them turned...See what they say.. Does any of you that track your cars use heat paint (green/orange/red) on your rotors? If so what colors have you 'burned' into?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by chris walrod: <strong>take a set of these ceramic rotors to Pep Boys and ask to have them turned...See what they say..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Why would anyone take any Porsche brake rotors to Pep Boys to have them turned? Is that something you do?

Except when chasing a stock 996 into turn 1 at VIR.... I agree with Karl. No way the ceramic brakes are anything but a "cosmo" option at this point in development. If you are serious about saving weight, get a 6 or 8 piston Brembo kit with floating rotors and aluminum hats. Close to the same weight, less$$$, better brakes, period. Chris Brown +1