Car is dead after one month, opinion needed

hello all, I have barely owned my car, picked it up June 1st and yesterday the engine died. The car was bought with 104,000 km, and now has 107,000 km ( I live in Canada). I know it sounds potentially possible right now but here is where it takes a turn that I would love to get your opinion on. 1. the car was inspected before purchase, it did not show any leaks and it drove like a dream 2. I bought the car and drove it for 4 weeks and it was amazing. In the fifth week I thought that I would like to keep this for years and did the IMS LN bearing replacement as a preventative. 3. When the repair started on Monday and the transmission came off, the shop informed me that the clutch was on its way out and that I should replace while the tranny is out which I did as well. 4. The bill came to 4,300 which I paid in full. 5. 2 days later (yesterday) I was driving to a client meeting and decided to stop quick before getting to the clients door. When I came back to start the car it made a ticking noise and did not start. I did not drive the car the day before as I was working from home so yesterday was the first real day driving it. So just to sum all up: - the repair was done from the 14th-15th of July (this week), picked up on the 16th and the engine blew on the 18th. The car was not driven on the 17th and it sat parked. I thought it was the battery so I got a charge started from a guy in a truck and it gave me abit more juice from which the car started for a brief moment and then shook and started smelling. When I went outside, there was a coolant spray out of the driver side exhaust tip and smoke as well. That is when I knew that I fried something. I had the car flat bedded to the shop that did my IMS. They started to open the engine to see what happened and they pulled the spark plugs and all had coolant on them except plug 5. This just seems odd to me that it happened so fast after a large preventative repair. I asked them what this could be and he stated first that his job had nothing to do with what happened and that my car probably was weeping from the head gasket and I understand that this can not be detected on an inspection without removing engine components. What I am left with no is a car that I paid 26k for and a 4k repair job. I have the car at another shop now and they are going to examine the engine to see if there is anything visible in the engine that would look like there was a fault from error rather than known issue. I am looking for a new engine but also looking to see if there is a potential case here for me to take the shop that performed the work to court to get a new engine. I am new to the Porsche world, was a BMW guy for 15 yrs so I am still learning alot but wanted to get some good opinions to see if this could have happened or if I may have a case here. Thanks in advance to all that will take the time to read this and respond. My dream car has started to become a touch of a nightmare now...

Whatever the cause, this really sucks, and I'm sorry to hear about your trouble. It's also worth pointing out that 2 days is a significant amount of the total time you've owned it... maybe it was a ticking time bomb, regardless of what your shop did. As Flat 6 often states, there are MANY modes of failure for the M96 motor. If you think the shop's work is at fault, you need to get another shop to start the teardown and document what they find. Keep in mind that if you accuse your shop of some misdeed and it turns out to be coincidental, you will have burned whatever goodwill you might have had with them, whereas keeping things cordial until you know what's up might result in a discount since you just plowed a bunch of money into the car. In my opinion, it's premature to be looking for a new engine before you know what's wrong with the one you already own.

Sorry to read about your engine's demise. Horrible news. I really do not think you have a case against the shop that did the work You got the car back and drove it 4 weeks. If the work/repairs that were done were the cause of the massive coolant leak into the engine this would have happened much sooner. I'm going to have to declare it a coincidence. (All in my humble opinion of course.) Now it could be there was some head gasket leaking going on for a while. But you'll never know now. A plug change might have turned up one or more plugs with clean tips that would have hinted at coolant leaking into the cylinders. The oil had it been analyzed might have found anti-freeze chemicals in the oil. The coolant level could have been dropped too. You know now that I think about it that coolant is in both cylinder banks... that doesn't read like a head gasket failure. That reads more like an AOS failure that routed coolant to the intake. If I'm right the engine might be salvageable. Before you trash the engine and order a new one you might explore this see if it the AOS can be made to take the rap. An engine that has suffered from this could very well be brought back to life. It won't be cheap, but it will be a heck of a lot cheaper than replacing the engine.

The shop is right, the two are unrelated. BUT make sure whoever insoect the engine, they have a really close look at the Air Oil Seperator. It has coolant going throgh it and is very possible that if the seperator fails, it can dump coolant into the intake manifold. This would then get sucked in by the cylinders and then shot out through the tailpipe.

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Hello again, I wanted to just let you that the repair was done from the 14th-15th of July (this week), picked up on the 16th and the engine blew on the 18th. The car was not driven on the 17th and it sat parked. I did own my car for 4 weeks and decided to do the IMS job this week. Thank you all for your insight, it is much appreciated.

First off, sorry to hear about your troubles. An AOS problem is fixable. What year is the car? If an early 996, it could be a cracked head - also fixable. Don't assume the worst just yet. Is the shop that did the work fluent in Porsche? If not, take it to an expert.

What year? When you say they pulled the spark plugs and all had coolant in them except #5 do you mean 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 or just the right side of the engine, 4 & 6? Exhaust crosses over so drivers side smoke comes from passengers side of the engine. +1 for an AOS. Hard to see where else antifreeze could get to both sides at once if that is the case. Both left and right heads blew at the same time? If so suspect skipped timing. If just one side could be cracked head. Not uncommon on 3.4 LTR engines. Was the car stored outside in the rain at the shop? Was it raining when you stopped for ?? on the way to the client? If so and the front drains were clogged it could have ingested water that would hurt the engine. Cracked head can be repaired See this thread by Dharn55 https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ad-repair.html

My car is a 2002 C4 cabrio. The car was not in the rain, more so the week has been very hot and humid 33C. This input from all of you has been great so far as it leads me to believe there is a slim chance that that it may not be the entire engine. I will know this week.

I would have it sent it back to the shop that did the maintenance repairs. You only had it back for 2 days and the motor failed...sounds like a mistake was done by the shop. If so then they should be accountable for the labor and cost of whatever needs to be fixed.

edit: sorry..just re read you're post and you did send it back to the same shop.

OMG I am cringing reading your posting. So sorry for your demise. Hope it is only the AOS at fault and that you get it replaced.

The problem as I see it is you had it bump started. If there was coolant in the cylinders you very well may have bent a connecting rod (or two, or more). As a note, always let the clutch out slowly when bump starting it while being pulled. If there is a condition like this, it will lock up the wheels before doing damage to the engine. Ask me how I know this......

I will be the first vulture and offer you 8k for the car....

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Good grief, my reading comprehension is about zero. Make that less than zero. Sorry. Still, AFAIK the cooling system is not really messed with when the IMSB upgrade is done. Some coolant hoses may be disconnected and clamped to prevent coolant loss when the transmission is removed to get at the IMSB. That is I'm not sure in the case of the 996. My 996 Turbo is in the shop for an RMS leak which means the transmission has to come out and I looked the car over (from underneath as the car was on the lift) and noticed some coolant hoses were clamped off in preparation to removing the transmission but if this is required for the 996 NA cars I can't say. Regardless, I can't think of anything arising from an IMSB upgrade that could result in a compromised cooling system that would flood the cylinders with coolant. Generally a head gasket leak/failure is localized to one cylinder, two at the most if the gasket between cylinders fail. But to have all 6 or even 5 cylinders with coolant suggests the coolant came in via the intake and this could point to the AOS as it does have coolant flowing through it and a failure of the AOS could have coolant getting into the intake via the same route the crankcase vapors are routed to the intake manifold. Really, the failure looks to be nothing more than a horrible coincidence -- not that that makes the event any less painful -- but I'll think about this some more.

Yikes stories like this make me cringe since I am in the market for a 996. But we all know that sports cars all some sort of issues. JR did a post recently on how some shops are not really doing a job on the IMS correctly? I would be so mad if I spent $26k and my engine blew

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Nope, no need to touch the coolant lines to take down a manual transmission on a NA996. The lines themselves are actually above the transmission, so you'd have a hard time getting to them. Even more so, you have 2 head gaskets on the M96 (left and right sides of the engine), so it's VERY implausible that both would blow at the same time. The only common point of contact between oil/coolant that would affect both heads is the AOS. Hopefully that's all you have to fix...

+1 on AOS...similar thing happened to me and scared the crap out of me. Even if the shop comes back with a diagnosis that your engine is toast, get a second even third opinion. Towing money well spent. AOS is around $1200 installed. Good luck

Wow. Good luck. Heres hoping its the AOS.

Sounds like AOS to me. Not sure if you are able to work on the car yourself, but if so: Step 1: remove the AOS; pull the plugs; crank the engine by hand (get all the coolant out); install old spark plugs; install new AOS and change oil/filter. Step 2: Start car up and let it get to operating temp. Step 3: remove spark plugs, check compression on all cylinders; if you have constant compression across all 6 cylinders, install new plugs and be on your way; if there is a cylinder or two with significantly lower compression, it's time to drop motor and replace a rod, valves, or piston rings IMO your engine is probably fine.

There is even an easier way to test the engine. Clamp of the two coolant lines that go the the AOS, pull the spark plugs and crank the engine for 20 sec. to clear out the coolant, then re jnstall the plugs. After this, fire it up, let it run for a few minutes. If the engine sounds good. Get a leakdown test done on it. If that comes back good, take the car for a drive. If that checks out, then get the AOS replaced.

I can't thank you all enough for your positive comments and your opinions, I really appreciate all of it. I am hoping to get an answer this week and am trying to stay as positive as I can. My first thought when it happened was I would rather it be my car than my own body that had something inside that was killing me like cancer or something fatal. I am very good at processing hardships/challenges so with a sharp brain, and a functioning body I can make the money to pay for the repair instead of stress about things that are out of my control. It may take a bit of time to sort out but I hope to keep my love for Porsche and I would really love to experience what you all do as it has been a short experience for me so far.

Keep the positive outlook and be sure to investigate FULLY the AOS (short for Air Oil Separator) issue. They ALL fail eventually and are considered wear items. Most AOS's do not make it to 100,000 miles. The AOS is a not an expensive item, but can be challenging to get to, hence the $1200 repair bill at a shop. I replaced mine in my own garage over a weekend and saved myself probably $1000 in labor.

OP where are you located? Does the "new" shop know the water-cooled 911s?

This post is like a cliff hanger season ending tv show. I keep checking back to see the out come and hope for a new episode. I can't wait for the conclusion. And I keep hoping for a happy ending.

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LOL, me too! I keep checking the thread for input too as it helps me to plan what/who to speak to this week... I am hoping for a happy ending with the car as well, at this point whatever happens I will accept it and deal with it.

Where are you located?

Picked a shop for the diagnosis?

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Thats right. Wait till you see the study I have put together based on a car that was owned by a Rennlister that had an IMSR installed and then the engine failed shortly thereafter. The shop installed the top bell housing bolts in the lower positions and they were too long. This lead to a chunk of the block breaking through the chain well and sitting atop the drive chain for the bank 1 cams. That chunk of the crankcase was the size of a half dollar and was 1/4" thick. It was picked up by the chain and was run through the exhaust cam sprocket. This broke the chain, blew a hole through the cam cover, bent the cam, busted the scavenge pump, retarded the valve timing and kissed all the exhaust valves to the pistons on that bank. It ended up with two busted pistons. All because the guy chose the cheapest shop to do the IMSB retrofit. I spent the past 16 hours trying to beat discipline and attention to detail into the heads of 30 technicians at my M96 Engine Mechanical Class this weekend in San Jose Ca. and I used this circumstance as an illustration. You can lead a human to knowledge; but you can't make them think. The whole story is in my Flat 6 Innovations Newsletter that I'll release in August.

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Where in this thread (except your posts) does OP say anything about pop-starting his car? Jump starting != bump starting

damn, sorry to hear about your engine.

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You might be right. I re-read the whole thread and it is not there. Although I have been called crazy before (and will again), I generally do not insert random thoughts into the mouth of someone else. I will at this time retract my statement. If he just got a boost with jumper cables then please ignore my previous post....

Heh. OK, glad you're the crazy one this time - it gets old always being the insane party...

And people told me I was wasting my money replacing my AOS preventatively at 48k miles on my 2002. It's a nasty DIY but if you only pay for parts, only around $120. Too bad you didn't post to ask what else should have been done while they were in there for the IMSB and the clutch. Most of us would have said replace the RMS, water pump, T-stat, AOS and motor mounts. Cracked heads are not a usual fialure on a 2002, so lets keep our fingers crossed for the AOS. If you get theat done, have them do the water pump and put in a low temp T-stat, too.

The water pump and thermostat are on the other end of the engine, how does it fall under the while you are in there category?

Even a total n00b knows to number and note the order of these bolts. What a complete moron.

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What's a bolt?

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+996 on that. First time I dropped the transmission I was like "sh&t, those aren't the same bolts all around. Betta put some numbers on it!"

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Never said it was in the "WYAIT Category", what I said was, if it's "just" the AOS, which means the car is salvagable/repairable and just in for service, and will be driven regularly afterwards. He has an 11 year old waterpump, that is a known wear/fail item, replaceable with a newer revision (3 revs, actually), and can take care of the well known hot spot issues of the '02s and newer with a low temp stat, and be done with it. Car may still even have the original "lifetime" coolant in it, which is total BS. Not everyone is a DIYer/rebuild an engine in your sleep kind of guy. His car is in for service, get the obvious worry points done. I'd have said get the motor mounts done too, but really almost anyone can really do them on their own, and they will not kill the car if not done.

We need an update!

I dont think the OP realized that the 996 is just that, a DIY vehicle. Not everyone can afford the "dealer fixes everything" syndrom.

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This is my first Porsche and I had been a BMW guy previously for 15 yrs straight. I used to perform some repairs on them but left the bigger jobs to the shop I used to deal with. As for update, the car is still not running and my new place is analyzing what happened and if in fact the shop that did the ims work is at fault. There is no way that this could be such a coincidence in my mind as the car was running perfect before taking it in and then losing the car a day and a half later.... It just does not add up in my mind. Either I have terrible luck which I do not believe or the job was not done right which I tend to believe. For now I had to go purchase a Mazda 3 so that I could get around and did not want to spend too much. This will be quite a change but I am not going to stress it as it will be a temp thing till I can get my car back to health. Thanks again to everyone who has been so supportive and all of the messages that I have received. Even though I just joined I have learnt a lot from all of you and and thankful to have joined the board.

did you mention the possibility of the AOS being the issue ?

Unfortunately since this occurred right after the IMSB work, Jake is probably right, as usual.

i dont believe in coincidences ... although it is not necesary did the first shop take the engine out to do the clutch or IMS upgrade ? if they did im thinking they hit the AOS and damaged it ...

To the OP: Did you get any news yet about the problem? Waiting for your findings before I panic and drop my engine for the AOS/OVS.

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Statistically, I think this is the likely situation. A Major problem after a major engine repairs is just too much of a coincidence. Surely the shop knows that.

Either way, it still sucks.

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maybe if they didnt pull the engine out, could still have hit the AOS somehow. I am betting on AOS

Having recently done this work on mine, I dont see how you could hit or damage the AOS/OVS. Its not in the way of anything.

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Yes and no. After the dealer performed an engine swap at 37k miles my right cat rattled, and still does. The bottom of the Cat is clearly scuffed, I was present when they checked the cats for noise when I first took the car in because of an engine noise. In the end the dealer refused to accept any responsibility because "we googled Porsche cat rattle and had hundreds of hits" so this is simply coincidence. They then told me to check the Rennlist forum and I would see what they were talking about. On the other hand, I remember in the old days when I was a mechanic a customer accused me of "breaking" her back up lights when I rebuilt her generator. The back up light switch was bad, I tried to explain it but in her mind I touched something electrical and lights are electrical so I screwed up. Again, it was the old days, and I worked for a guy who lived by "the customer is always right". I was pissed, but we replaced the switch on us. It seems that in this current age it is most always about the money. They repaired the seat because it was a cheap fix, the cat on the other hand comes with a significant cost. For the OP, I hope the outcome is not catastrophic and I wish you luck in getting cooperation from the original shop.

Same here. Been following and like everyone else hopeful it is not as serious as it looks. Please keep us updated.

Sorry to hear about your troubles.. Certainly curious if the wrench is responsible?

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That is amazing to hear. Under the same breath, the dealer won't admit that there is a common problem like the one you stated, nor will Porsche. I speak of this since I've gone through 5 sets of catalytic convertors. Dealers are such full of ****, no wonder they get a bad name. Yes, each and every one of them.

Any updates?

OP, From your other threads of the car being wrapped in sky-blue color and now with a chunk of ice denting the hard top, you obviously got the car running again. Can we please ask you to fill us in with what the problem turned out to be? And what did you do to rectify the problem and got the car back on the road?

I was thinking the same thing. Saw the car on the Rennlist fall run but only afterwards I realized it was the same car. What was outcome?

Hello all, At the end of it all, the car got a new engine in it in September which really sucked. The next shop that did the swap had assured me that they would look at my first engine and document any errors. None of this actually happened and I got fed up with pathetic service all around and never experienced this in 15 yrs of running 6 BMWs. At the end of the day they did a really good job on the install and I did not have any issues afterwards. I was getting so annoyed that at the end of it, I just wanted to move forward instead of sitting in a problem and headaches. It was a crappy situation considering that I did nothing wrong in this scenario except listening to peoples recommendations and I did not follow my previous rule that if it is not broke don't fix it. I simply took my car in to do preventative work and lost it within 48 hrs. I just wanted to get this all behind me and while it was an expensive experience, dealing with E U Autowerks and meeting some great Porsche enthusiasts has brought my positive experience back. The car drives like a dream now since September and I look forward to the next season of Rennlist cruises as well. Apologies for not updating this thread, I guess that I forgot it along side of the ordeal that I went through.

Wow. This is a new engine from Porsche? I remeber your car from the fall run too.

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It is a not a new engine, it is actually from an '06 997 with under 80k on it. The shop that did the install sourced it for me and it was one of their client's cars. They took their time with the install to make sure that all connections were proper and they used the air hoses/connections from my previous engine. They were a great shop from work stand point but I did not like their lack of communication. I was used to status updates and do not like being in the dark. From an enthusiast's mind, I also like to know what is going on with my car at every stage if possible. My BMW mechanic was amazing for that and he took care of all of my cars since '98.