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YOUR RESEARCHquestion about x51 oil pan and baffles
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accusump kit and i'll be testing our version
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The ultimate solution for this issue is an accusump kit and I'll be testing our version for the 996 in a couple of weeks at a track event myself in my 99 test vehicle..
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The issue is mounting the unit anywhere except in the cockpit..
Install x51 pan, have you noticed extra resistance
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When you installed the x51 pan, have you noticed extra resistance...
Run lower pressures than my current 996 does, including one
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However my 944 turbos generally ran lower pressures than my current 996 does, including one with a more worn motor that did see 2 BAR at 4000 rpm.
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I run without one fan in the front -and often with the A/C on- and do not see the coolant temperature rising past 190 or so on the factory gauge.
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I don't know that this is a cause for concern, I don't know what exactly it means to have lower oil pressure in a turn, is the pick up running partially dry?
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accusump kit and i'll be testing our version
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The ultimate solution for this issue is an accusump kit and I'll be testing our version for the 996 in a couple of weeks at a track event myself in my 99 test vehicle..
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Hi Guys - I have a question that I have not found the answer to here, or on RennTech... yet!
I called the dealer, thinking I wanted to order an x51 oil pain for an 02 996 that will see track time. They said the stock drain pan on a 3.6 is the same as the x51 - there is no special part number for an x51 drain pan... yet I see SunCoast sells an "x51 drain pan". Is this just a regular 3.6 pan that people with a 3.4 buy?
I've spoke to two different parts guys at Sunset about this, so I doubt they're wrong, but I just wanted to confirm that the stock 3.6 pan is the same as an x51 pan.
This has been pretty well documented here before with pictures. The stock 3.4 and 3.6 baffles look identical. The kit that Suncoast sells for X51 is really the only way to get the upgraded baffles. Many of us have tried and failed to buy just the baffle without the flat aluminum plate. Keep it as a spare cause now you have two
FYI - There is a bulletin that shows all the part numbers included for the X51 conversion that any Porsche dealer can pull up on their/Porsche's online computer system.
The stock oil pan on a 3.6 does have baffles but definitely differs from the X-51. Looking at them side by side the stock baffles look like they would hold more oil in place but there must be a reason for the X51 pan. I did this mod just recently together with an oil change so could compare the baffles first hand. I believe you actually need a secondry scavange pump to get the full advantage???
(photo courtesy of 6speed member)
As you noted the oil area is slightly larger, but the details are why the X51 pan is better. I'll try to explain this as best as I understand using some pics. I didn't take these, so the credit isn't mine, but I did edit them to illustrate the points. Also, this could be completely wrong and might cause your engine to blow up.
1) X51 has small upright gaskets [noted in red]
Gasket1.jpg
Gasket2.jpg
2) When you put the pan on, these mate up to the engine block. [Pan picture has been flipped to show how it would look mounted.]
X51Gaskets.jpg
3) The gaskets prevent oil from flowing
around
the baffles, effectively creating a little pocket of oil that remains close to the oil pickup since oil will ONLY go through the baffle openings. [edit: I am not positive how pronounced (if it exists at all) the oil flow path is around the baffles in the stock version. In any event, I am pretty sure that the oil in that area is not available for pickup
RennPicEdited.jpg
4 In the X51 pan, the baffles stay open so that the oil from the returns can flow into the baffle interior. But lateral G's causing backflow will slightly close them, again keeping oil in the "pocket."
OpenBaffles in X51.jpg
With all of these things combined, it seems like there is a larger quantiy of oil at the pickup and that oil will stay near the oil pickup longer under cornering. So, although a complete oil scavenge pump may be the best solution, the X51 pan looks to be much better than stock
.
-td
Good pics and details but I have a few questions. I have fitted this pan and carefully compared the 2 and how they mate up to the engine block.
Pic 1 shows that the stock pan is almost a complete four sided oil trap. You are right about those extra gaskets on the x51 but comparing how the stock mates up with the block you'll notice that the rounded lower plastic lip does the same thing but just doesn't stick out so far. The oil is still contained to the same depth as the x51 and isn't allowed to flow out at that point. You can see this in your pic 3. Also you will notice that the rear of the trap is enclosed on the stock where as the x51 is open. There is no rubber seal as with the small gaskets. Oil can effectively flow around the rear of the baffle between the edges and engine block wall.
The actual rubber baffles are the same material as on the stock and don't stay open any more so I can't see how that helps either. The wall holes are also the same.
I'm not trying to pick holes but after taking the stock pan off I sat and analysed how this new x51 pan would help prevent oil starvation. I just couldn't see it. I've got a degree in Physics and spent along time researching fluid mechanics and still couldn't exactly 'see it'. In the end I figured the Porsche designers obviously had more knowledge than me and fitted it anyway????
As another option there is this...
http://www.bkauto.com/porsche/r9095.php
Instruction download...
http://www.bkauto.com/porsche/instructions/R9095.pdf
As you noted, the rounded lip in the stock baffle effectively closes the baffle, but it also illustrates that there is a reduced amount of oil available in the "pocket."
Also, now that I look at this closer, I'm not convinced there is actually a huge flow path between the sections in the stock pan, i.e., point number 3 may be slightly embellished (picture number 4). The small metal tab appears to dovetail to some degree with the block and may actually prevent some oil from flowing between the halves.
However, to the extent there is a separate flow path, oil will take the path of least resistance during hard cornering, which may contribute to starvation issues.
Fair point. Although there is no gasket, it looks to me like the flat edge of the baffle is pretty close. I have no idea if oil actually flows around the back side, but given the rest of the design, I would expect little if any.
On the X51 the baffles are manufactured to stay open. Although it may be minimal, it reduces the resistance to oil flowing into the baffle area. On the stock pan, the baffles are close all the time. This extra resistance may discourage oil from entering the pocket.
Actually, the holes are little higher on the X51, probably to closer match the pickup location (i.e., to better match the pickup depth). This may also affect the deep sump pan you mentioned.
No worries. I'm not a Porsche engineer. It just made sense to me when I researched it. Like I said, it could be all wrong and your engine might blow up
If you get the deep sump, you should consider the extended oil pickup since the deep sump moves the bottom of the oil pan away from the oil pickup. Under extreme cornering you could exacerbate the starvation issue. That is, there is substantially more oil in the pan, but not necessarily substantially more in the baffle area. There have been a number of discussions on this, but who really knows if it makes it better or worse...
Ultimately, to benefit from the X51 oil pan, you probably need all the other X51 parts, or just get a new engine altogether
=============================
Lastly, those that are even considering this are probably track junkies anyway. And we all know that $250 is nothing in the grand scheme of tracking a 911. If you don't track your car, you probably don't need this mod.
=============================
-td
Haha, great!
Totally take your points though and it's always good to get a fresh pair of eyes on something. Like I said I ended up fitting the pan which without the full X51 kit may just be a waste of money but hopefully it will help prevent 'something' happening???
The x51 is also 4 sided once it is installed, the gaskets are mated to the engine wall (thus holding more oil in the baffled area). When you installed the x51 pan, have you noticed extra resistance... that is the gaskets sealing up inside the engine wall.
I also looked at the 2 design... in fact the pics that were posted are mine....
oil starvation were never an issue with these cars... unless you are tracking with slicks. the water cooled guy Ryner? at the PCA site stated that they never seen any oil starvation incident/problem... it was just one of the 996 myth. The x51 is def a better design...bottom line... it holds more oil within the baffles.
the prob with this setup is yes... it extends the oil capacity but in the wrong direction. What good is it making it deeper if the oil pickup cant reach the oil.... if there were a pickup extension then it would be better
Nice pans Red
Those pics are getting some good mileage - thanks!
FWIW, I pull 1.6+ LatGs and 1.4+ longGs running R6s. So far no engine kaboom. But my last engine did kaboom running RA1s. No confimed diagnosis as to whether it was oiling or not. Maybe Raby knows the answer
-td
Red is spot on.. The x51 has a rubber seal on both the front and rear. No question about it. It creates a much bigger box for the oil to sit inside of.
Also, extremely vital is that openings on the doors sit significantly higher than the stock baffle... BTW the parts department calls this thing a "windage" tray.
Also +1 on the Negative for the BK. what it does is just plain friggin wrong. It lifts the baffle up but leaves an open gap all along the bottom.. Where does the oil go? DUh to BK.
Mantis has the only other good solution in that they extend just like BK does but seal while extending and then drop the oil pick back down by the same amount. Ie you carry more oil and your oil pickup sits deeper w/i that pool of oil.
another note.... the only way that the oil can move from side to side (high G's) of the x51 pan is through the side 3 holes...
the stock pan use plastic tabs to keep the flaps in place... the x51 pan use rivits... When I pulled the stock pan out, I found 2 plastic tabs that hold the flaps at the bottom of the pan... the plastic tabs are cheap... if the rest of the tabs wouldve totally failed... the flaps would of failed and oil starvation is imminent.
I agree on all points mentioned. It all makes sense.
I'm sure I read in the BK install instructions that there was an extension to the oil pick up but reading it again there isn't so feeling the same about that kit as you guys.
Redridge, yup, your photos, was following your threads on 6speed...
Data points:
I have noticed in several 996s that extended sweepers (Roebling Road for example) will have the oil pressure drop a couple of bars as per the gauge on stick
street
tires. I'm at Thunderbolt right now, and I've seen it go as low as 2 bar on the gauge on a long enough sweeper. I'd seen close to 1 at Roebling. I only notice it at the exit of turn 2 at VIR full.
Anybody do a before/after with this pan?
Also out of curiosity, does anybody care to explain what exactly it means to have lower pressure as per the gauge? Does that mean the pick up gets partially uncovered, and pockets of air enter the oil supply?
LN Engineering has a pick up tube extension that works with the BK kit. Or you can just buy theirs and it comes with the extension.
http://www.lnengineering.com/deepsump.html
Question though, the install video for the LN / Flat 6 kit mentions that you have to modify the stock plastic oil baffle. You use a Dremel to extend the lower edge of the 3 "windows" on each side. So if you go with both the X51 and the LN or BK deep sump kit do you have to extend the "windows" on the metal X51 baffle too? Jake, have you seen this combo on a car?
Ordered from Suncoast and will install this weekend. Have a track event coming up in two weeks, so I want to keep doing mods to my car that will protect the longivity of the motor. Next up is the IMS / RMS upgrades when I have to replace the clutch / flywheel.
Yes the baffles need to be trimmed on the X51 as well..
The ultimate solution for this issue is an accusump kit and I'll be testing our version for the 996 in a couple of weeks at a track event myself in my 99 test vehicle.. The issue is mounting the unit anywhere except in the cockpit..
More later. We are fighting starvation issues with a vengeance and with the insane power we are getting from the updated and prepped engines its becoming even more of an issue with higher corner speeds being a possibility..
You've got my attention!
I can't believe it has taken this long and so, so many blown motors for someone to go in this direction. Looking forward to test results.
the other thing to note with oil pressure drop is oil temperature and engine temperature... as oil temp goes up... the natural pressure drops... so say 4 bar @ 3000 rpm is normal pressure... you will find as your temp goes up and up you won't be getting exactly 4 bar @ 3000 rpm.... so I think the heat exchanger on these cars doesn't do an adequate job in cooling down the oil.... I wonder if we can get a heavy duty oil cooler that will keep oil temperatures cooler than what the normal engine comes with...
that's awesome... I find at the track this is the biggest problem with these cars.... regardless of the weight of oil you use... the oil temp will go to a point where the oil pressure is compromised the longer you are into your session... I have the "fan" mod on my radiators and this keeps temps down significantly (not as effective as a 3rd radiator but does a very good job) but oil pressure still below what it should be @ end of session...
pressure @ corners @ mosport drop to 3 bar well into my session (20 min) but at normal engine temperature stay consistently @ 4bar (safe)... so rising temps means a thinner oil and lower oil pressure...
your kit will be an engine saver.... how does this kit work Jake? is it always on or does it start cooling when a certain temperature is reached... ?
It is my personal opinion that oil temperatures or other oiling issues are NOT big problem with the M96 on track. I run without one fan in the front -and often with the A/C on- and do not see the coolant temperature rising past 190 or so on the factory gauge. This leads me to believe oil temperatures stay in check also, though I don't have an oil temp gauge.
Likewise my oil pressure does not drop noticeably between my first 5 minutes on track, and near the end of an hour session. What does worry me is that on some longer sweepers I see the oil pressure dropping (street tires but modified suspension) by a couple of BARs. I don't know that this is a cause for concern, I don't know what exactly it means to have lower oil pressure in a turn, is the pick up running partially dry? If so, does this then mean that some bearings go dry, or just that the system pressure drops. If it's the latter, I have no problem with having 2 BAR at 4000rpm for example.
For full disclosure, my car has a remanufactured motor, uses absolutely no oil through several days on track, or between oil changes. This is the first car I've ever owned (including brand new cars and full rebuilds and engines with hundreds of hours on them) that uses no oil what so ever, by the way.
2 bar @ 4000 rpm... uh-oh... not good... do you have any metal shavings in your oil?
what track are you running and how long are your session for.... do you shift at redline? or 6000 rpm...
I will try to be more clear, I have no issues with my 996, my oil pressure is not 2 BAR at 4000 rpm. However my 944 turbos generally ran lower pressures than my current 996 does, including one with a more worn motor that did see 2 BAR at 4000 rpm. Many track days and no issues w/that motor. This leads me to believe that a set number is not necessarily "too low", but I'm curious on this topic, and I'm finding it hard to get information, or even educated opinions.
I have seen several 996s, oil pressure dropping by 1-2 bar on the factory gauge in long right hand sweepers, and it is a quick drop, comes back as the car straightens out. It does not go below 1.5 BAR or so. I am curious what this means. Oil pick up partially dry? If so, does this mean some bearings ever go dry, or just lower overall pressure?
Latter is not a cause for concern, where as the former is, more so than an absolute number on the gauge, in my opinion.
I've ran quite a few tracks, (CMP, VIR, Laguna Seca, NJMP, Rockingham, Watkins Glen, so forth). Length of sessions vary from group to group, some give 90 mins at a time (last weekend), some only do 20-25 mins -the week before. I think that's irrelevant though, as my concern is oil pressure under cornering, not running slightly lower -but consistent- pressure due to heat build up. Anyway, some tracks are better than others, but this issue is not track specific. Just to answer your question, I don't have a set rpm where I shift. I just posted this video from 4 days ago elsewhere on this forum, it clearly shows the tach for shift points if you're curious. I don't have one showing the oil pressure gauge unfortunately.
tight and long right handers is what causes this drop... from 4 to 3 instantaneously... and then as you say when its straitens out the pressure comes back... that is exactly what I see.... porsche created the X51 scavenger pump to eliminate this "sudden drop" and it works...
HOWEVER
I don't see the "drop" at normal engine temperatures... only toward end of session when temps are higher and oil is thinner and sloshes around more.... I even have the X51 pan installed ... on my older engine I didn't have the x51 pan installed and saw even lower pressures 2-1.5 in that same corner... so its definitely a form of momentary starvation of some sort
Very cool, thanks for sharing. How much did the X51 pan help by itself? Did that engine have some oiling related issue that caused you to switch?
I have not paid attention temperature vs. the sudden pressure 'drop', I'll be more cognizant in the future -though my interest is mostly academic at this point, I think I want to move to a GT3...
Didn't you mean long "left" handers?
The problem is well documented and has to do with the M96 engine only have 2 oil scavenge pickups. The left side pickup is at the front of engine (towards front of car) and the right side pickup is at the rear of the engine.
Under heavy breaking followed by a long high G left hander, oil collects in the right front cylinder head instead of being returned to the oil sump.. Sump runs low on oil, pickup tube sucks air, oil pressure drops, crank bearings see little fresh oil eventually you throw a rod.
Happened to me.
Well poo. I was under the impression that it was also right handers. All of the serious 996 folks here have most problems (including smoke screens) when running clockwise with mostly right handers...
Heh, good thing I have a GT3 now...
-td
it was a new engine I put in the car and decided to put an x51 as a precautionary measure...
as for oil temperature... a new oil cooler is needed... the stock one sucks... or perhaps a 3rd center radiator will keep overall temperature down and oil pressure up as it won't allow it to get hot and thin...
at mosport corner 5b... its very tight right hander and then you accelerate down a hill and then up and TO THE LEFT... the drop occurs at the bottom of the hill right after you have start going up and left... so you are right... also in corner 3... very extended continuous right hander... I get 3 bar after 20-30 min... 4 bar in first 10 minutes at normal temps...
what kind of BAR were you seeing before you threw a rod..?
The right hander thing and smoke screen only has to do with the air oil separator. Nothing to do with oil pressure. Surely Jake Raby will chime in and school all of us
lol
Guys.. anyone recall the factory motorsport oiling upgrade that adds a dual stage oil scavenge pump to the right cylinder head to remedy this situation? Chads996 did a thorough writeup here when he upgraded his car last year.
did I miss something?.... pics now!!!!
yes, the valve cover needed to be machined so that an external oil pipe drains the trapped oil in the heads back to a new scavenge pump that have an extra inlet to accommodate the external oil return pipe.... it is part of the x51 oiling kit. Maybe one of the 40th Ann guys can take a pic of it.
Sorry to be late to the X51 baffle party. A a couple of questions:
Objective question:
Is there any functional difference between the X51 baffle and the one Patrick Motorsports sells?
http://patrickmotorsports.com/part/1630/
Subjective question:
X51 + accumsump + deep sump kit = peace of mind or overkill?
Subjective question II:
X51 + accumsump + deep sump kit + GT3 oil pump = get a GT3 already?
Dave- did you install your baffle already- notice anything last time out?
One concern I have is the plastic baffle in the stock pan.
If you watch Jake's installation video for his pan gasket, he finds a broken plastic tab on the stock pan. I'm sure I'm just being paranoid, but I like the metal in the x51 better.
I can't see any difference with that baffle and the x51 model. I doubt that they invented a new one.
My 2 cents on your 2 options... For utmost peace of mind get the Motorsports Oiling Kit ~$1K for parts plus some more for the install.
The first option you have isn't bad insurance. The 2nd one I didn't even think was possible with the GT3 Oil pump? Explain more on that one if you can.
-Paul
I can't explain the GT3 idea other than its going on my 3.8 and probably should have some time ago.
Ask me why another time.
Probably a stupid question will it even work in a wet sump car like the 996?
I know on the 964 the case needs minor trimming.
I'm no expert, but if you do the deep-sump kit, then don't you also have to lower the oil pickup and raise the baffle walls by the same amount? Otherwise the deep sump by itself could potentially make the oil starvation issue even worse, right? I remember reading that here somewhere. Please correct me if I am wrong.
