A $600 Oil Change

Just thought I'd relay a little experience of mine, food for thought: I purchased a 911 about 6 months ago and reached my first oil change interval. I took the advice of many individuals on these forums and others in using the rear engine jack point to get the car high enough for the change. However, the car was up in the air less than one minute when my left rear engine mount burst and scared the **** out of me. Regardless, my $65 oil change has turned into a $600 oil change. The take away in my opinion is: be careful who you regard as expert in any area concerning DIY work on a 911/996 . Afterward, I did what I SHOULD have done and consulted my Porsche dealer service manager who cited at least 5 cases over the past 5-10 years of someone coming in with the same problem because of using the rear jacking point and further stated that nowhere does Porsche recommend to either owners or service organizations that the rear engine mount is an acceptable lifting point. Therefore, I would hope that common knowledge would shift towards NOT using the rear engine **** as a jack point. That being said, this is obviously my own fault, but it indicates to me that I should take a more critical eye to advice given online by owners.

What year is the car and how many miles on it? A picture of the car would be helpful.

An expensive oil change.

Jacking the car with the engine did not break the motor mount, years of driving did the motor mount in. Jacking the car, simply allowed the mount to finally fail in a way that made you aware of the failure rather than it dying during driving and you not having a clue that it failed. You did nothing wrong. If the mount failed with the car lifted by the engine, the mount was going to fail anyway. It was only a matter of when. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using the engine as a jack point to get the car up in the air to place jack stands under the rear support points. What is wrong is to leave the car lifted by the jack. For an oil change, it is much easier to simply drive the car up on ramps ( I recommend Rhino Ramps) rather than lifting it with a jack. Of the hundreds of times I have lifted a 996 up with the engine, I have seen 3 mount failures. In looking at the failed mount, all of them had excessive degeneration of the mount center, and would have failed regardless. These fluid filled mounts are used by VW and Audi as well, and they all seem to start leaking or fail with less than 100K miles on them. On the bright side, replacing a mount is a 20 minute affair (3 bolts) , and the mount is relatively inexpensive ($150). Again, don't blame yourself like you broke the mount because of a improper maintenance process. The reason the mount broke is that it was just plain worn out. You just allowed it to fail in a controlled environment instead of out on the road or track.

ORIENT: Good point of clarification. I use the rear jack point all the time....and left unsaid, this might have scared a lot of the DIY'ers from using the rear jack point under any circumstance. Of course I immediately put in the jackstands and block the front wheels if I leave them on the ground. Although perhaps no where does Porsche say to use the rear jack point....there are an awful lot of Porsche mechanics who use it rather than go thru the added work of jacking up each side.

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the weight of the (rear of the) car. It is designed to support the weight of the engine and of course to keep the engine properly located under normal and not so normal driving conditions and the forces the engine is subject to. If you wish to keep using the motor mount as a lifitng point that is your business. I would always recommend the car be lifted at factory designated liftng points only. Using any other points to lift the car is just asking for it. For oil changes and other minor services I prefer to back my '02 Boxster up on Rhino Ramps. The slight slope of the car does not impede the draining of the oil from the engine. It does make for slightly cramped working under the car but since I'm in no hurry I adapt. Sincerely, Macster.

Heppens more than appears in this forum. Only a fool would lift the car by the engine. Funny how it's always those who state that Porsche is smarter than they are when it comes to how to care for their car who ignore Porsche's specific warning not to use the engine to lift the car. It's all about common sense. Your kness can support 1,000 pounds of weight but will be destroyed with as little as 300 pounds of pull.

I have only used the engine jack point a couple of times, but cannot think of any other way for me to get onto jack stands. I do have a very low profile jack, but there is no way to get it to the rear crossmember that some use. I did lower the car, but pretty conservative compared to others.

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You could drive the car up on 2 x 6's which will give you the room to get to the crossmember. Or, spend a few dollars and just buy a second jack.

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Nice idea. Thanks!

I didnt mean to offend anyone, but the point should be clear and well taken: if Porsche doesnt suggest it, or better, if Porsche suggests against it, its not a good choice. Certainly any procedure that works for cars with X miles but not for cars with ++X miles isnt a legit or universally acceptable procedure. I think the best choice is to make yourself, or purcahse, appropriate car ramps or take the time to jack each side up using the points. That's what I'll be doing from now on.

I was able to do an oil change on my 996 by backing it out of the garage to the point where the rear tires were about 1" away from the small lip of the garage floor. Since most driveways slope away from the garage entry point to keep water from entering the garage, that slope was enough to allow me to reach under the car to remove the oil drain plug and the oil filter. No jacks or ramps needed.

How do you jack the back of the car up without using a different point other than the rear jack points? I understand using the rear jack points to lift the front end, to put stands under the front jack points. So now you have the front end on jack stands. Then what (aside from the non-Porsche recommended engine jack point)?

Here is a question: Is the engine hanging from the body, or is the body sitting on the engine?

I havent read all the post by I always jacked mine at the crossmember between the eng and trans. I have heard people say you shouldnt do that but I laugh......they say it will bend the crossmember and affect the suspension geometry.......BS

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Just curious, why do you find it necessary to be insulting? Clearly Orient Express is not a fool. Isn't it a bit tiring always taking the low road?

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Hangs

why don't people just jack up one corner at a time by utilizing the body jack points that you use to change a wheel/tire? Is it tough to place stands in with that method? J

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Until I tried it myself I had the same question. The problem is the jack stands need to use the same points. You can get the fronts on jack stands using this technique. but need some way to lift the back to position the jack stands. I have seen longer access low profile jacks to reach the crossmember--might be my next investment.

I tried getting the car up on jack points this way, but could not get the rear of the car high enough to get the jack stands under - it was pretty scary. The weight of the engine means that you end up jacking the front of the car WAY up there for a small lift at the rear. In the end I chickened out and put the car back down again. It was not a safe place to be when using a compact shop jack.

996/997 Jack plate

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I agree. I jack up on the rear jack points and slip ramps under the rear wheels when I want to work on the rear for anything (oil, exhaust, etc). Our X5 has a dedicated jack point in front but it's not the motor by any means.

Oil changes - just use the Rhino ramps - easy, quick, safe.

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Wayne, I did what you did on my '87 and guess what? It slipped off the jack wedged the jack between my tire and the torsion bar cover. My Brother was using my short jack stands and so I grabbed his tall ones.....big mistake. The kicker was that it tore my ground effects on that side and the I had a jack stand under the half-shaft. It fell on the half-shaft but it did not hurt it though. I was so pissed and had to get another jack to remove the first one. I just cant bring myself to jacking a 911 by its' engine.........

I would not use the engine mount as a jacking point...seems like a no-brainer to me.

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Yup, that's what I was afraid of! I got the front end way off the ground - almost to the limit of the jack and it still wasn't high enough to get the stands under the rear. I figured no good could come of going further and very slowly lowered the car for fear if it slipping. I have to find some good ramps at some point.

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Wow, where did you find that??

I used ramps..don't know the name bought them pep-boys, never did an oil change myself, but changes the exhaust and bumper this way...little more space..

If your car is lowered www.raceramps.com

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Thanks - I'll have to take a look next time I'm in there.

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Who is being insulting? Whether you damage the mounts the first time you use the engine to lift the car or it takes several times or it never happens, it is foolish to do so. Someone who does something foolish is described as a fool, it he not? The mounts are not designed to be compressed with 1000+ pounds. Just because there are a few exceptions where damage does not occur or has occured and is not noticed, does not mean it is the best way to lift the car.

Here is where we disagree. It appears that your position is that lifting a 911 by the engine is the root and sole cause of motor mount failure. Unfortunately your position is not correct. The root cause of motor mount failure is simple wear and tear failure. A mount in good repair can handle both positive and negative torsion compression from engine movement, but over time the flexible materials in the mount degrades, and will eventually become brittle and will crack releasing the isolation fluid that is contained in the mount. This is true for not only 996 mounts, but also for mounts from other german manufacturers, especially Audi and VW. Under normal use a mount will usually last about 6-10 years or 100K miles. Severe use can cause the mount to degrade and fail much earlier. (Trivia fact, 996 motor mounts have a 993 part number) 996/997 owners who may not be mechanically adept or have a good understanding of the mechanical or electrical subsystems in their cars could come to the conclusion that if a motor mount failure event happens during lifting the car, that the lifting event is the cause, but the reality is that the mount was doomed well before it failed. I maintain that if a mount was bound to fail, that it is best that the mount failed when it could draw attention to its condition. Lifting the car using the engine as a mount is a very good way to determine the serviceability of the mounts. Many 911 owners drive their cars for months if not years with failed mounts and are none the wiser. Their only indication that something may be amiss is an increased level of NVH or that the muffler tips seem to be lower that what they were. As a part of normal oil change maintenance, I recommend that the condition of the mounts be examined. If there is any purple or dark liquid stains on the mount bottom or the rear engine cross brace, then the mount has failed and needs to be replaced. Replacing a mount is a very easy DIY process. To replace a mount, simply support the engine with a jack, then remove the bottom bolt securing the mount to the engine, then from the engine bay, remove the 2 top securing bolts, lift the mount out, and drop the new one it and secure it. Note: It is necessary to remove either the air box or secondary air pump to gain access to the mounts. Retail on a replacement mount is about $150, but can be had for less. If you are capable of using a ratchet wrench, you can R&R the mount in under 30 minutes.

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I have no idea where you identified my position as "lifting a 911 by the engine is the root and sole cause of motor mount failure". It IS, howver, one of the causes that can easily be eliminated.

OK, so, how does Porsche say to put the car on 4 jack stands??

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No further questions, your honor, the witness may step down...

If a part--in this case, a motor mount--has become worn due to age and mileage but actually fails when you do something you're specifically not supposed to do--in this case, using it to jack up the entire car--I'm not sure why one would claim that the jacking didn't make the part fail. It's like continuing to pile snow on your roof beyond its load rating until it caves in and then claiming that the failure was because age had weakened the roof and not because you kept piling weight on it. When something works for its intended use but fails when used for something that's beyond its intended use, you don't blame the age of the part...you blame yourself for using it beyond its capabilities.

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Good comments but you won't get through to him because it make too much sense.

I can change my oil and filter w/o jacking the car. I just found a low oil change pan. Whole job is 20 minutes. I use Gota911's technique.

So I get the sense that many of you are really stuck on a tangent, so let me recap my points. 1. When changing your 996/997s oil, don't jack up the rear, rather drive the car up on ramps. It is a faster and easier way to gain access to the oil drain and filter, especially for the faint of heart. 2. If you do need to put the rear of the car up on jack stands, then using the engine case centerline to temporarily support the car while you fit jack stands to the rear body support points is perfectly safe, and is done day in and day out on thousands of 996s without any issue. 3. Fluid-filled motor mounts as used on the 996 have a finite life and will fail at some point. If a motor mount is nearing the end of its useful life, using the engine as a lift point may hasten the mount to rupture and a small number of mounts do fail when lifting the car. The OPs experience shows that. However if the mount is in good condition, then there is no reason for concern, as the mount will not be harmed. The shear strength of the mount is identical in both the load and lift modes. The key point here is that if the mount is nearing the end of its useful life, then there is a 100% probability that it will fail even if the car is never lifted using the engine. Again, if the mount is at the end of its life, it is going to fail regardless if the car is just driven around or lifted using the engine. Don't confuse the catalyst with the end result. How severely the car is operated will determine the life of the mount. So if you can get past that point and accept the fact that the mounts will fail at some point in time, then you have to ask yourself what is better, to have to mount fail silently and you not know that it has failed, or have it fail in a environment that makes you aware of the failure so that you can remedy the situation quickly? I would wager that a significant number of the readers of this thread are driving cars with failed mounts right now and are oblivious of the situation. If your mounts have failed, would you not want to be aware of it? In the end, this whole discussion is probably moot. Those that are on the sheepish side of this discussion would probably never have a need to lift the car up in the rear in the first place and are probably driving around with blown mounts anyway. The other camp that is comfortable in lifting the car from the engine are very well laughing at this much ado nothing.

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No, he is not. BTW, when I changed a bulb in my wife's Cayenne today, I couldn't help but laugh at the "Porsche recommends Mobil 1" sticker. Only a fool would say Porsche doesn't recommend a brand of oil right?

How often do you change motor mounts ?

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I get what you're saying - makes a lot of sense and I agree with the logic. I would have given this a shot if I had a shop jack that could reach that point.

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Big difference between recommending something and paid advertising.

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The short answer is as often as necessary. On my personal 996, It is still on its original mounts after 6 years and 70K miles. I expect that I will change them out at about 100K miles. My Audis mounts seem to fail at about that time, so I would expect the 996 to last about as long. Your mileage may vary. If you drive everyday like you are trying for a new record at the Ring, your mount life (as well as tire, brake, clutch and engine life) will be less. If you drive more conservatively, your mounts will last longer.

OP never posted pics yet... this thread is void....

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Yeah, I needed 1 more inch to get the jack stnads in, praying it would not slip. The angle of the jack pad was pretty severe to the jacking point, I guess I didnt pray enough....... I use rhino ramps and love them, unfortunately mine werent around at the time........

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Who sells this?

CDOC.com

This thread is starting to be a back and forth issue but I only started the thread to bring up the point that the engine lift, while it might be acceptable, it isn't a Porsche approved procedure. Because its not always easy to find what is or isn't real a Porsche procedure I wanted it to be known. It is my opinion that if jacking the using the engine mount causes enough stress to burst a mount, whether used or not, it isnt one to be used regularly. As for me, I'm in the process of building ramps that raise the rear-wheels about 1-1.25 feet off the ground with a shallow angle appropriate for my ground clearance. That being said, anybody that doesnt follow the mainentce or repair schedules to the tee at Porsche certified locations is, according to Porsche, a "shade-tree mechanic". I do my own mainentence and repair to the extent I can and have no problem straying from Porsche recommendations assuming that it is well founded. I just dont think this is a well justified exception, from what I could tell, jacking from the engine wasn't necessary the safest or the least stressful on the car. Furthermore, I doubt that jacking from the single point on the back of the engine replicates even closely the force load that is applied to mounts under normal driving because all the force is located on the rear engine mounts and not on the additional transmission mounts.

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The mount is the least of my worry......it is the case! Hey, I resemble that comment in bold.

I make it a habit of staying out of such threads but I will chime in and say that when we raced my 996 we only used the engine jacking point when no other approach would work and then we did it very carefully. To put our car on jackstands we used the rear jacking point and put one jackstand under the front jacking point and the other (with the cradle removed) over the bolt head near that rear jack point that holds the black brace that runs at a 45 degree angle from there to the cross member. It's hard to describe from memory and without pictures but it should be pretty obvious. This method was much faster and much much safer than putting the front on stands and using the engine to lift the rear. Just my 2 cents worth. I'm probably wrong. Jim

Just driving the car will cause enough stress to burst a mount too. In fact 90% of burst mounts are caused by just driving the car. Is this then an indirect endorsement of only using the car as a Garage Queen?

Well, thanks to the OP Navy for posting your experience. I have a different technique for lifting the rear of my '62 Bug, but certainly have jacked the 996 this way to set up jackstands when changing out exhaust a couple times. (I don't like ramps myself.) Just good to be aware of this, and also to take a look at the mounts once in a while.

Are these mounts known to fail?

Any motor mount is prone to failure. It's a wear and tear item.

Looks like we have two distinct camps here....those who jack their cars up using the engine point, and those who feel that this is tantamount to heresy. I think Orient's intent was to provide us with an alternative to jacking up the car. Doing it this way takes both rear wheels off the ground at the same time and facilitates the insertion of the jack stands. Those who feel this contributes to engine mount failure may have a valid point....but I know of many professionals who use the engine jack procedure. Actually more guys I know use this procedure than those who don't. I guess if you want to use the technique....go ahead and do so....if the thought of doing it this way raises your anxiety level....go the other route. I've been using Orient's method for some time now and have never had a problem. If I blow a mount....I'll fix it. This is almost becoming a Shakespearean.....Much Ado About Nothing.

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And I always thought retired guys were uncouth ******! I guess I was mistaken! Well, at least about the "uncouth" part anyway!

Thanx for blowing my cover....You phallic symbol of a cranial extremity.

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Sorry about the blowing your cover.... I fixed it! At least I gave you the opportunity to call me a ******** very early in the new year, so you should be happy about that!

Turn about is fair play....I fixed it too! Well....sorta'. Hope your new year brings you a GRREEAAT job...and you can get back into a P car.

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Your fix makes me sound important until you stop to think about it! Thanks for the good wishes. I certainly hope so too. I have nothing on the horizon right now, and I have to admit, I am very concerned about finding a job.

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+1 I love it! Nice to see the dick head insult fly early in the year and with style. It's always fun to see you guys go at it.

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That one took me waaaaay too long to pick up on.

I usually jack up the rear of my car by the bumper cover, other times I have used the exhaust pipes. Could I be doing damage to my car using this method?

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I've used that jack point for the rear also. Just never the motor! You should try the cats. I think I saw a thread somewhere that someone used the cats to lift the engine due to some theory. It works! Why not?

I can't believe I'm doing this. My first post on a new forum and it may make enemies out of half the members. The engine only hangs down about an inch. When you jack up the engine it goes up about an inch and then the engine carrier hits the bottom of the rear bumper structure. So the weight of the car is not on the rubber part of the mount, it's metal to metal. If the mounts are in good shape the rubber will just retract into the mount as the engine comes up. If the mounts are worn and sagging and collapsed and hanging out of the mount, (and that is what they do) then I suspect when the engine is jacked up they don't retract and the bladder gets pinched. That's why they pop, burst, leak, explode, die. I personally don't care about the mounts. If they pop they pop. I'll replace them. What concerned me most was damaging the case. Could that little lug really support the weight of the car? Well I accidentally tested that. I jacked up the car with an old floor jack. The kind with a really deep cup style saddle. I didn't realize all of the weight of the car was on the thin edge of the saddle, and not even on the flat lug, on the bolt behind it. It put a little notch in the case but no cracks or damage. I definitely don't recommend trying that. I now use a pad. I place jack stands directly in front of the factory jack points. None of my stands will fit on the jack points securely.

Careful with RHINO RAMPS. Fast forward this utube video to around 2 minutes or so. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb3zkFJVoGU John

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You will find that EVERY post will make half the members enemies.

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Ahh yes, I have had it happen.

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Who revvs the motor when you're declining down a temporary ramp? That guy did it deliberately and doesn't have much common sense.

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What did you expect?.... he drives a Honda!

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so THAT is what "Driving a Honda" looks like Not real fast are they

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No, WE aren't!

I always jacked my 1999 C2 from the engine when I needed to get both wheels and tires off the ground (i.e., to change plugs). I did not do it if I could get away with leaving the tires on (like changing the oil...I just lift one side, pull the plug, lower the car to let it drain while level, then raise one side again a bit to get access to the plug to re-install. I had a motor mount pop one time while engine jacking. (the car had 80k miles). I spoke to my indie tech (who happens to be an ex porsche premier tech, and he said exactly what Orient Express says: it is not the act of jacking form the engine that busts the mount. If a mount fails in this circumstance it had already failed or failure was imminent. He frequently jacks from the engine if he wants to do something on a customer car quickly without getting the car on a lift. By the way, when I bought my turbo I visited the evolution motorsports showroom and asked them about a safe engine jacking spot for the turbo...they pointed me to a spot on the case and indicated they frequently jack from there (but only long enough to get the stands under the stock jack points). I think the absence of an official "engine jacking" location from Porsche is born more from a desire to force people to go to the dealer for repair/maintenance than anything else. My two cents. I'll continue to engine jack when necessary (guess I'm foolish).

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Hmm... hitting the gas on a front wheel drive car and wondering why the ramps become projectiles... ahh, another member of MENSA there.

It's not like he reved 4000 RPM or anywhere even close! He touched the gas, but not that much. If you must go uphill, even if just a few degrees, you must touch the gas, or you won't move. I would keep that video moment in mind, when thinking how safe a ramp can really be. Bottom line is: Plausible (a la Discovery)

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This is a novel way of getting up without jack stands>

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JD, Wayne obviously doesn't understand the massive amount of power and torque these "Honda Honeys" produce. If you are not used to them, they can get away from you in a hurry!

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yea, but what if you punch the throttle with those suckers on!!!

Guys, I think that we haven't spent enough time on the topic of getting a car on jackstands if the engine-mount method is to be disregarded (which I've used the past 3 winters to great success). I'd be delighted to use a 'safer' and 'better' method for getting the car up on jackstands, to change wheels for example, if someone could present me with one. The problem is one of getting the rear jackpoints put into place on the Porsche approved jack-points. The front wheels are a no-brainer, but I couldn't for the life of me figure out a way to utilized the rear jackpoints. JimB had a decent workaround, but again, it doesn't use the jackpoints, instead using the cross member. Any thoughts or recommendations?

Just use the cross member or the pivot point of the control arms or 2 jacks . The subject is really not that complex.

my recommendation...

I've got to get my car on the road, so out of frustration I just took my jack (one of the cheapos with the small jack pad) placed a 1x1x3 on the pad and lifted on the frame directly in front of the jack point. I was then able to put the stand on the jack point and lower the car. If the jack point is reinforced to bear the weight of the car then so is the frame 3-4 inches in front of it. Anybody else do it this way?

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Nice set up! Maybe some day...

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Yep.

Gees guys, this is just not that hard. When my Porsche had a 930 case number I used to jack it up a bit from beneath the engine. With the 996 and 997 engines I jack it up just a tad,--with two floor jacks and I do it from the aft jacking points. If I want to keep the car on stands then I jack it up from the suspension pieces nearest the rear wheels just enough to get the stands with hockey pucks beneath the body support points. Back to the oil change issue,--I still use the cut down 5 gallon paint container that I made back in my 930 days,--it's cut low enough to slip beneath the engine (without jacking) (and still be able to reach in and loosen the bolt) yet still holds whatever amount of oil a 996/997 will hold. (I routinely dump about 8.5 quarts with a change and the container goes to 12).

man, if you cannot jack the damn car up, just let the dealer do it. this is not rocket science.

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This theory is not necessarily correct, although 356 users do it all the time.

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It's all about how much you are lifting per sq/in in relationship to the jack. Just spread the weiight out and you're good to go.

Im actually surprised how long this thread has stayed alive considering the relatively simple issue of jacking up the car. I only started it to warn newcomers to these cars (new 911s) that jacking from the engine can end the life of worn-out mounts. Who thought jack points would be so polarizing?

Ah, Grasshopper... Welcome to the world of Porsche fanatics.... Watch what happens when I pose this simple question: What is the best oil for my 996?

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Great thanks. You lucky dog, you. I'll start saving now! Dude, you're talking about Porsche owners. The longest threads around debate the merits of one oil vs another. I still think the fact that Porsche doesn't offer a detail method to put the car on jackstands is part of the reason that there is no uniformly accepted manner of doing so.