RMS - after the truth

Him I'm researching a feature for a magazine on RMS leaks, and would like to make contact with people who have detailed knowledge and experience of the issue and feel they could contribute towards this. If you think you can help please email me at [email removed] Many thanks

Why not start at the top.....say PAG? Nobody on this board will have detailed knowledge of this since it (all the answers) is held by the gatekeeper and they aren't talking nor admitting (PAG). As for members experience, I would just let your fingers do the walking and use the search command. You will get more threads than you care to read since it has been bit*ched about ad nauseum. Long story short.....it happens, it sucks, we live it it and the excuses and denial they (Porsche) give and move on.

I'm pursuing the official route as well, and talking to various specialists, but it would be good hear some experiences of owners. Cheers

Keep us posted as to your success with the "official route". I know we would all be interested to hear. Still searching the shelves at my local Borders for your mag.............

Yeah definitely keep us posted. I would love to hear what good 'ol PAG says about the issue. Also, Phil, I've been checking Barnes and Nobles and haven't been able to find a copy yet. Has it hit NY yet?

Really - search.... You will find many multiple experiences on the same cars... the poster boy is Scouser (Bernie) in the UK....... The way the UK & the US handle it is an interesting slant.... good luck......

Hi Phil... Sort of like Diogenes with his latern!! Berny (Scouser) who is from Liverpool has, I think, had six RMS replacements on his car. Barny is driving around Europe right now. He'd be a good contact for you. His email is: [email removed] You may also want to post this note up in the RennTech forum as well. There are some current RMS discussions going on there now. There is also a considerable archive on the subject. Good luck. Would love to read the article. Jim

Here is something I put together 2 years ago after we had a tech session on this issue at my local dealer. http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=15 Since then a 3rd seal design has come out and Porsche issued a bulletin about replacing the intermediate shaft bolts and rear crankcase bolts with bolts that have a sealant on them. Berny has had the seal replaced 6 times. The most recent was with the 3rd generation seal and the bolts with sealant. His 996 still leaks. We have a local Boxster owners with 5 replacements until Porsche gave up and replaced his egine, so as far as I know Berny holds the record. Some time ago the Porsche Club GB did a written survey with it's 986/996 members. I think PCGB is now doing a follow up survey to get members who joined after the initial survey, or who did not respond to the initial survey, and to find out if the seal had been replaced again after the initial survey. Or something like that.

Good luck with the official route because you are going to need it. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't believe you are going to get a lot of information from Porsche. If there is a persistent RMS problem, and I believe that many of us believe there is, it's unlikely that Porsche will voluntarily offer up any data that could be used against them in some future litigation. Moreover, for all we know Porsche has already been sued, and in that case they certainly won't share any RMS data with you.

Yup....Berny is the contact for all RMS related info. Look him up over on renntech.org

If you do a search like the boys have said, you''ll get loads of information on this plague. RMS has been a terrible overwhelming ordeal for those that have had them and an overwhelming concern for those that have not had them..........................YET! Please post your results. Cheers

I was thinking about this and wondering why Porsche would not want to make good on this and make their owners happy. Remember the Pentium Divide Flaw issue of the early 90's? Intel initially said only scientists could get their microprocessor replaced because the flaw was rare and only affected double precision math or something like that. The public outcry was huge (lots more people own PC's than Porches) and eventually Intel offered anyone who would bother to change out their processor a replacement at no charge. They took a $400 million reserve that quarter and the actual returns were way less. It turned out to be a huge PR coup that paid for itself many times over. Now, why wouldn't PAG do this? The obvious answer is THEY DON'T HAVE A FIX!. Even though the RMS has been redesigned several times, they still leak and in significant numbers. That means that if they gave everyone who wanted a new RMS, or a new engine, or lifetime repairs, the financial exposure would be enormous because there is no quantifiable scenario in which it gets better!. If I was running PAG I'd be screaming at engineering to come up with a fix, and once there was a fix, install it at no or minimal charge every time it came up. It can't be very rewarding to them to be replacing 2 or 3 of these and replacing engines on cars under warranty as they apparently are.

Lee, once again, well said. Chris

Thanks guys - some useful info here. I'll keep you posted.

Phil I have always suspected but have no proof that the original engine design was tested with conventional oil. It is well known that mobil 1 will leak where conventional oil will not. So after the design of the crankshaft seal area was cast in alum. in this case, they changed to Mobil 1 not knowing that the seal design was not adequate. Because it would take a casting change to fix it is nearly impossible. I don't think the GT3 motor or turbos have an RMS problem.

I think you have to remember that this design flaw started in MY99. While it is different metallurgy than the GT3 a casting change wouldn't fix that - machining would have to (alignment) or jig change (that holds material while maching). I'm sure PAG is pulling it's hair out over this, just don't think they have it fixed. My curiousity lies with how much Kolbenscmidt (the block caster who makes pistons) does with the engine. Their web site brags about doing assembly in addition to casting. PAG is such an outsourcing *****, it wouldn't surprize me if Kolb. assembles the piston/crank assembly. Furthermore, if that was the case PAG would probably get reimbursed for some of the problems. We're dealing with very smart people here. Just my speculation.

The GT2/GT3 is NOT immune to RMS leaks. https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...hlight=RMS+GT3

No car is immune from RMS leaks.

Correct. The lower sales and different engine type can attributed to smaller reported RMS problems with the TT/GT2/GT3 but they are not immune. However, it appears that the 996 and Boxster have disproportionate RMS failures than other earlier Porsches. Rob

RR I have owned 5 Corvettes over 36 years none ever had an RMS leak. The only Chevy's that ever had a RMS leak had a bad rear main bearing as well. Maybe you meant all Porsche's have RMS leaks.

The $150,000 Ford GT 40 was recalled for a RMS. Many cars have them, not just Porsche's, and certainly not all Porsche's. I've had two 911's, with combined mileage of over 70K, neither has had an RMS... looking for wood to knock.

I think of this problem, as this . Yes Porsche knows and yes Porsche doesn't care, it is NOT effecting their sales, I mean the sales are up 30% from last year.I believe it is a design flaw, it will not be fixed by replacing the seal, it comes down to some cars are worse then others eg: Barnys car.My 2004 996 C2 had a leak at 18,000 k and was repaired under warranty of course, but please entertain me for a moment. PCNA pays 8 hours to do this job, I know for a fact that it really takes 3 hours(if your good) so why not change everyone thats covered. Correct me if i am wrong but aren't most P-car deals privately owned and operated i know if it were my dealership i would change every single one.I know this will **** allot of people of but come on people get over it, its a flaw if you cant deal with it SELL YOUR CAR. With this being said I don't think its right but what do you expect from Porsche , they are in the business to make money and I hate to tell you but they too cut corners.

I think you're absolutely right Paul. BTW car looks sweet, like a 40th with that bumper. Chris

I check my 03 C2 everyday for any leaks and have found none. Today heading home on the 118 fwy (LA) going at 60 mph, the engine suddenly gets louder while obviously struggling to rev. The Check Engine light goes on, I pull over, engine still running but struggling to rev, the shut engine off due to low oil pressure message comes on. I comply and get off the car. There' s oil all over the the road under the car. I call my dealer Westlake Rusnak and after describing hat happened they immediately told me that it was the main seal. Kudos to them, they did a great job assising me. They immediately called Porsche Road Assistance and within 20 minutes a flat bed truck arrived. The driver was obviously experience in picking up Porsche. He knew exactly how to carefully load the car into the flat bed. It took him close to 30 minutes to do this as he carefully and painstakingly tied the car down on the flatbed. On the way to the dealer (30 miles away), I complemented him on how careful he was with the car. He told me he had to actually take a course in a Porsche dealership on how to properly transport these cars. We got to the dealer, where the manager was waiting for me in the entrance, did the paperwork quickly and I was told that the warranty would cover the cost of the new engine plus a free rental to use for the next 4 days as they expected the work to be done on Friday. All in all the disastrous event ended up in a very positive note. Can't thank Kimberly Hoover, the Westlake Rusnak service manager enough. She kept me calm and did an awesome job assisting me. Thanks Kimberly - appreciate all your effort!

Wow sqlb I have never heard of a rear main seal blowing out. Usally they just weep oil a few drips at a time. In fact on most I think you could just leave them leak to keep the dust down on the hyways if you don't mind a little oil on the garage floor. let us know if you hear any other details. I would be interested if such a severe leak caused oil to get on the clutch.

Sounds like a whole lot MORE than just a RMS. Odd to hear of a RMS lasted perfectly for 2 years, then BLAM it explodes and squirts oil (all of it) everywhere then automatically leads to a new engine. That is an EXTEMELY small space for 9+ qts of oil to escape that fast. There was something catastrophic that happened inside that engine other than RMS.

Amazing story about the level of customer service at that dealership. We have all heard of dealerships telling the owner to pound sand in some situations. Your a lucky guy. I hope my dealership has the same commitment to customer service.

SQLB, How many miles do you have on the car?? I hope that you get your car back soon, better with a new engine.

The car has 19,972 miles. Ran perfectly until now without any kind of mechanical problems since I got it. Someone in 6speedline.com had a similar experience with his 02 C4. No oil leaks of or symptons of RMS then his Check Engine light went on and the rest is exactly like what happended to me. I love this car and intend to keep it even though I plan of getting a 997 GT3 when it comes out next year. This incident does not diminish at all my Porsche fanatism. LOL

What happened to sqlb is a little disconcerting...I, along with others I think, assumed the RMS issue was something that gave some warning rather than a sudden catasrophic failure. I'd be interested to hear if the dealer gives any additional information on what exactly happened. This could get a little expensive for cars out of warranty...

My 02 C2 had no leaks for two years until about 20,000 kms. Then I noticed some drops and had the seal replaced for RMS. Then not more than a 1000 kms, my car started to leak again. I asked the dealer to replace my engine, but they asked to fix it one more time. I agreed mainly because I really didn't want a new engine number. The dealer replaced the seal with their new tool, and about 3000 kms more, the car leaked yet again. This time the dealer ordered me a new engine and gave me a Cayenne S for a week.

I don't think Porsche provides "new engines" because of persistent RMS leaks. Unfortunately all you will get is a rebuilt engine, probably from another car that had a RMS leak.

I don't really care so long as it runs right and I don't have to pay.

Guys, Just came across something interesting today while talking to a local independent Porsche specialist. According to the service manager, they shorten the spring inside the RMS to make it hold tighter around the shaft. Sounds like they could be on to something! Ciao, Johannes E.

I was told this almost 6 years ago when I started Boxstering and talking to mechanics and going to tech sessions.

Here is a little tidbit for you. While playing with my engine the other day, I had loosened (deliberately) the cam actuator cover on bank 1. Well, I got distracted for a few hours doing something else around the house and my wife started the car to go somewhere with it. Well, the oil obviously leaked out in greater volume than the common leak. I retightened the cover and noticed that some of the oil had found its way down the front of the engine and was dripping EXACTLY where oil would drip from an bad RMS. Since it is common for these covers to leak, I wonder how many RMS replacements have occured because of an incorrect diagnosis?

I would guess that any decent tech (or the supervisor) would know that, and take it into consideration.

The leak on the GT40 has nothing to do with RMS, it is a bearing design flaw. Full detail in C&D of this month.

Decent Porsche techs at the dealer are few and far between. The vast majority of them can only do what the book says and the extent of their knowledge of these cars depends on how detailed the pictures in the shop manual are. There have been numerous posts on this board of false idetification of RMS leaks.

Very sad but true... What are the requirements these days? Seems like everyone and their mother could be a tech or specialist.

Very true. All techs at the both local Porsche Dealers barely look 18. Dealers start these guys off at 30-40K a year. As soon as these kids get some experience they go on to independant shops, etc...

That sounds a lot more like intermediate shaft failure than anything.