Horror Story

The following is my horror story. I am posting this under a different ID and I have removed names because of pending litigation. I grew up in a family of Porsches and have owned several in the past. This car was going to be my keeper for the next 15 years. Now it is a terrible mess that has brought an unbelievable amount of grief to my life. Please understand if I can not answer certain questions that will undoubtedly arise. Purchase In May, 2007 I purchased 2004 Porsche 996 a from a local used car dealer that specializes in Porsche. The car had 22,548 miles on the odometer and I purchased it for $45,000 plus sales tax. The car was still under factory warranty until July 17, 2007. The sales man showed me a clean Autocheck report. As with all the cars on their lot it vehicle had two dealer applied decals in the front window, one that said “Passed Smog Check” and a second that said “Passed Safety Check”. I inquired if the car had ever been in an accident as was told it hadn’t. The salesman further stated that all their cars are inspected and that is why there is the “Passed Safety Check” decal in the window. With this I believed that the car was free of any previous damage. June 2007 Within the first month of owning the car I noticed several problems. 1. The car pulled or drifted to the right at both highway and city speeds. 2. The steering wheel was tilted to the right when traveling in a straight line 3. The car became very unstable over rough surfaces. It felt as if the back of the car wanted to travel in a different direction than the front. This was noticeable in both a straight line as well and when cornering. 4. There were “clunking” noises that came from the front suspension when maneuvering at low speeds such as while parking. 5. There were many rattles over even small bumps. The pulling and instability issues caused me to bring the vehicle to a local Tire Shop with a state of the art Hunter DSP 600 Laser wheel alignment machine. The alignment equipment showed that the front suspension was out of factory specification in Caster, Cross Caster, and Toe. The rear was out of specification in Camber and Toe. The mechanic was unable to improve upon the existing settings. July 2007 The factory warranty was expiring on July 17, 2007 so I wanted to have the local Porsche dealer fix a few things while it was still under factory warrantee. The service advisor later called to inform me that the car had been badly wrecked as sometime in the past. They noted that the “car has had rear cross member replaced, most of the arms and bearing carrier replaced on the left and body work on right rear fender and roof and right door, right rear toe arm also has been replace.” As a result of this extensive crash damage they refused to perform the repairs under warranty. After finding out about the damage from the dealer I called the salesman at the dealer who sold me the car. I voiced my concerns about the damage, the fact that it couldn’t be aligned correctly, and the fact that the Porsche dealer would not honor the factory warranty because the damage was so extensive. They assured me that there was no way it had crash damage and that their mechanic would correctly align the car. On July 30, 2007 I dropped the car off at the Selling Dealer. They took it across the street to a shop that specializes in Porsches. The shop owner used a Hunter DSP600 Laser Wheel Alignment Machine to align the car. At the end of the day I picked up the car from the Selling Dealer and was told that it was now correctly aligned. I asked for the print out and was told that they had misplaced it but they would mail it to me. The cars handling was slightly improved but it still suffered from the same issues as before. The alignment printout arrived by mail on August 8, 2007. It showed that the car still could not be aligned within factory specification. August 2007 I was completely consumed by selling my existing home and trying to get escrow closed on my new home. September, October, November Every waking moment was spent on rebuilding our new home so my family could move out of our temporary quarters. December 2007 Over the previous months the car’s handling had become very unpredictable. On December 14, 2007 I took the car to a Tire Shop and again had the alignment checked. They put in on a Hunter DSP600 Laser Wheel Alignment Machine and I found that the alignment had slipped from its previous settings. The wheel alignment was well outside of manufacturer specifications. The mechanic was unable to bring the car within specification. Further more the mechanic noted on the printout that “Adjustments are maxed out on left rear and right rear and both front wheels”. With this information I took it back to the dealer’s mechanic. They again put the car on their Hunter alignment machine and confirmed that the alignment was out of spec. At this time he felt that the car might have a bent strut and suggested the use of new suspension components that would allow for more adjustment. He explained that all components would be supplied by Porsche or Porsche’s OEM suppliers. I went ahead and had them order the parts the week after Christmas. January 2008 Early January the parts arrived at the dealer’s mechanic and the work was completed on January 10, 2007. I drove the car home and found the handling even worse than before. On January 11th I took it back to the Tire Shop to find out what the alignment was set at. To my surprise the alignment was even worse than before. This prompted a call to the dealer’s mechanic and a return visit to their alignment machine. They made more adjustments including removing a 2mm shim on the divers side lower front control arm (GT3 lower arm). This “fixed” the cross camber problem buy making the control arms different lengths on each side of the car but now created an asymmetrical front track problem. March 2008 Handling had again become unpredictable and I feared that the alignment had again slipped into a dangerous area. This time I did some research on frame measurement techniques. I found that the state of the art Chief Laser Frame Measurement equipment can very accurately determine the alignment of the a cars unibody (frame). On March 6th I took the car to a Body Shop that had the Chief Laser Frame Measurement equipment to determine the condition of the unibody. In order to mount the car on the frame machine the rocker panel covers (factory aero covers) had to be removed. This exposed un-repaired damage in the passenger side rocker panel. The car was found have been badly hit and in the rear. The rear was bent to the right and up. In addition the front of the car was bent up. On March 11th they informed me that they were able to pull the rear unibody to within manufacturer’s specification but there was no possible way to bring the front of the car within spec. I then called the Selling Dealer and informed them of the problem. They asked me to fax over the information. I said that I would bring it with me and show it to the owner of the dealership. The owner refused to meet with me. Now that the rear of the car was relatively straight the alignment was way off. Again I returned to the Dealers Mechanic and had them try and align it again. The frame straightening did correct the Front Caster but now the cross camber was even worse. They removed 3mm of shims from the divers side front lower control arm and put them on the passenger side. This again corrected the cross camber issue but now the track on the drives side is 5mm narrower then on the passenger side. During this visit I found out that the owner of The Dealer’s Mechanic Shop had previously been business partners with the owner of Selling Dealer. I now began to believe that The Dealer’s Mechanic was covering up the issue with the car to protect The Selling Dealer. April 2008 After interviewing several lawyer I settled on one with past auto fraud experience. We send a demand letter that went un-answered until June 7th. June 2008 On June 2nd, having not received a response from the Selling Dealer I signed a litigation agreement with my lawyer. Several days later the Selling Dealers response arrived. In it he claimed no knowledge of the unibody damage and suggested that I had crashed the car or simply become bored with it and now wanted out of my obligation. Sure is hard not to take attacks at my character personally.

Wow! There really are some scummy dealers out there. Good luck and I hope that this gets sorted out in your favor. it sucks to buy a car with a concealed past like that. Did you get a Carfax or PPI done before the purchase? I bad accident with frame damage should have shown up on Carfax. Good luck!

BTW, if you didn't get a carfax, then please do so - if it is clearly shown on the carfax that there was an accident then you might expect a counterclaim that the information was available and you didn't do due diligence before purchasing.

I'm with Wellardmac. It sounds as though you didn't have a PPI done or get a Carfax report, which are both absolute requirements when buying any used car. Not to let the dealer off the hook but it's always caveat emptor.

Had both a CarFax and Autocheck. Neither showed any issues. The only thing I noticed is that the 2nd owner had it for a very short period of time. Perhaps it should have been a clue but I figured he most likely bought a car he couldn't afford. He had purchased it from a Porsche dealer complete with a CPO warranty. Now it clear that he purchased the car, wrecked it, fixed it but wasn't happy with the repair so he sold it. One thing that I have learned from the various lawyers that work in this field is that Carfax/Autocheck are basically worthless. Most of their cases have clean reports.

The "passed safety" sticker and autocheck report combined with and the dealers assurance that they thoughly inspect all their cars and their lot full of 100's of 911s satisfied my need for due diligence.

When buying an expensive used car, it is essential to put it up on a lift an look underneath before you sign.

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Well, I'm sorry that you're in the situation that you're in, but as Deckman said, "buyer beware". A dealer never trusts a buyer and a buyer should never trust a dealer. At worst, trust but verify, otherwise you can end up in the position that you're in.

In the state that I live in it is illegal for a dealer to sell a car with unrepaired frame/unibody damage even if they disclose it. They can of course sell a car that has been repaired.

I posted this so that others would learn. Whatever the outcome it will not effect me financially it has just been a huge pain in my ***.

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Sounds like from your report that attempts had been made to repair the car. I bought a car last year - a CPO Acura. I was "fed a line" by both of the dealers that I went to. The first dealer outright lied about the history of the car, even though the correct information was available on the carfax report. He then pulled a scam routine with one of his colleagues on the push to get my trade-in at a steal of a price. The second dealer (who I did buy from) said to me that "he had seen the complete history of my car and that he could tell from the service records that I had looked after my car". I didn't call him on it, but I did raise an eyebrow considering that he was claiming he could see all of this information in a central database... not bad considering that I was trading a Ford for an Acura and such a database doesn't exist.

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I'm sorry that you had to learn the hard way - but a PPI is the standard mantra of this forum when people are looking to buy. Without a PPI all sorts of hidden history can go hidden until after you buy the car.... that is unless you have a very knowledgeable friend accompany you on the inspection.

I don't have any experience in this area but it would seem to me that the plaintiff did as much due dilligence as the reasonable member of the buying public would do. Remember that the reasonable (average) person is not some Porsche fanatic that posts on a Porsche message board and demands the see under the car before buying it and whatnot. The general public takes a look at carfax reports and, along with assurances from the selling dealer, assumes that the car has not been in an accident.

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True, but the average buyer isn't putting down $45K on a used car.

Sounds to me like you've kept an excellent history of events and have a nice paper trail to demonstrate you did everything possible to allow them to correct this situation. A lawyer at this point is the right decisoin IMHO and you should expect retribution or a refund. Not many would have persevered to the extent you have - I'd be pissed.

pm the vin and I'll run an Autocheck, I think my account is still paid up. Hope the rest works out.

At this point its a matter of principle. Nail the lying cheating $%@##.

Thank you for reminding us that used car dealers are never to be trusted. The reality is that cars do get into accidents and are repaired. These cars are often sold following the repair and a high quality, reputable and honest dealer will not want a wreck, so these get snatched up by someone who pays a low price and tries to pawn it off on some unsuspecting buyer. It is the less reputable and greedy operators that end up with these cars. Therefore if buying from a "used" dealer the probability of the horror story you have described is higher than a reputable dealer that is accountable to a manufacturer. The behaviour you are describing following your letter to them confirms exactly the profile of the slimy used car dealer who bought the wreck cheap and found you to unsuspectingly buy it. Completely agree that "buyer beware" and always be wary and expect the worst from used dealers. Good luck with your litigation, but regretfully you are not the first or last.

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I have to admit that this is the first used car that I have ever purchased from a dealer. All of my past used purchases have been from individuals. I think that it is easier to get a feel of how the car has been cared for from an individual. I will stick to private party purchases in the future.

On the other hand, I have bought my last 3 cars from a used car dealer. When I had the BMW in for a free detailing, they noticed the brake pads were worn, and changed them gratis because I'd only had the car a month.

Sorry about your bad luck, I think you should tell the members the dealer that sold you the car, you might be saving someone else the BS you have dealt with.PPI is your best friend and it would have found the issues your car has, but you didn't get it done and you shouldn't pay for that the rest of your ownership.Like every profession there are snakes out there, What did you know about the dealer before your purchase?

That sucks, but are you telling us that NONE of the listed problems were present when you extensively test drove the car? If they were, why were they not corrected BEFORE you bought it? Good life lessen. He who holds the money holds the power. Was this a Ford dealership?

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BOB!!! Wow I forgot about that guy.

I'd love to know the name of the dealer. Be ready to spend a LOT of in legal fee's, but if you win, you should recoup them. Can you say "treble damages?"

can you let us know the state? F*ck that dealer . I got a car from a dealer that was repaired as god as new. They told me the car was repaired before they even showed me the car.They even showed me the invoice for every screw. Dealers that try to sneak these kind of cars deserve what ever happens to them. The more sever the better.

There are two issues here. First, the integrity of the Dealer is in question. Either the Dealer is unethical or incompetent, and based on what is described here, I lean to the unethical. But isn't unethical used car dealer redundant? Second, the nature of the repair. With today's technology, what you describe can be repaired in almost every case. You simply have to find the right body shop. If you live near MD, please PM me and I'll give you a recommendation. Good luck with your law suit.

First let me touch on the test drive topic. The roads surrounding the dealer are heavily crowned so I couldn't tell if the car was pulling or it was just the road. I thought that it was the road. I was wrong. I understand everyone's desire to know who the dealer is or even what state it is in. At this point I believe I would be inviting trouble to divulge that information. I will say that it is a dealer who has been mentioned on this forum before... both good and bad. When it all comes to an end I will gladly name names assuming a settlement doesn't prevent it. When you think about it, knowing who it is may help someone with one specific transaction or it may scare them away from an otherwise perfectly good car. The lesson I have learned and now shared should help people all over the country.

Oh no! I feel another bad Texas car experience coming on. Good luck in teaching these guys a lesson for passing off a bad car, then pretending that they didn't know. When you described the symptoms that you were observing I could predict the end result, even before reading it. These guys knew it as much as we did. I hope that everything gets sorted sooner rather than later.

Very sorry to hear of your misfortune. Thank you for reminding everyone here why a good PPI - from the right person - is so important. For many people, including myself, these are cars of passion and dreams, and sometimes that feeling or shortfall of knowledge overrides logic. This can cause people to sometimes believe too much, or to little, in other's words or intentions - an unfortunate fact of life that I am sure most people have fallen into one time or another. There are not many are p-car experts. People have different levels of knowledge, trust, and understanding which drives what they feel is acceptable. I sincerely empathize with your situation and wish you the best of luck in your case.

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I am not sure I see the relevance of the price of the car to the reasonable person standard. I still feel that what I wrote applies to the average car buyer, regardless of whether they are buying a $20,000 camry or a $40,000 porsche. This is a select group that posts here. Remember that the vast majority of Porsche owners are not Rennlist posting Porscheaholics. Most do not care that much. What a rennlister would consider due diligence does not equate to what the general populace would consider due diligence.

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Well, I guess I credit people with more intelligence. My method of buying cars has not changed as a result of being here. I've always done a thorough job of checking out cars even before I bought the Porsche. If you walk blindly into buying a car without checking it out, then you're your own worst enemy. The quality of what you buy can then be related to the quality of due diligence that you put into the purchase.

Amen to this. This applies to any purchase. It does not matter what you are buying.

As a dealer myself I of course have a different perspective on this matter. Although this case seems extreme with the amount of visible damage most dealers when taking in a trade only look at what they see right in front of them and rarely does a dealer put a car in the air when in the heat of making a deal. That being said this sounds like damage that should have been caught when the dealer did the inspection. Unfortuantely there are many time that cars have been previously repaired and you cant tell and carfax I asure everyone here on this forum is an absolute joke. Always check one anyway but never rely on it for a cars condition. I would guess that less than 10% of damaged cars actually show up. You have to do a PPI - period! If this dealer didnt know the damage was there and you waited how ever many months to contact them again I see why you got litlle help. I have only been on the dealer side of this a couple of times and if this car is as bad you say I would offer to take the car back in trade for what you paid if I could sell you another in good will. At that point I would take it to the auction with a previous damge disclosure and take my lumps. That's just business. The dealer could go back on the person they aquired the car from but if it was a trade in and not an auction purchase this is 10X harder than it is for customer going after a dealer and we all know how that can be. Hope you can get out of the car and get one that makes you happy.

You mentioned a dealer name, is this where the vehicle was purchased?

If all of you reading this learn one thing. CARFAX IS A JOKE!!!

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I often put myself in the shoes of this dealer and consider how I would handle the situation. Your suggested course of action is what would seem appropriate to me. As a customer I am not seeking blood. As a business man I see these unfortunate events as opportunities to build upon my reputation by doing the right thing. I can only hope that the owner of this dealership is as ethical as you.

As some of you may remember, I went through a similar situation. GlobalMotorcars.com, another sleezy operation in Houston Tx. sold me a flood car. I was able to get the actual Porsche dealer who did the repairs, and somehow prevented it going on Carfax and kept the title clean, and then sold the car to Global, to fax me the report. This went against Porsches policy, I luckily found someone on the phone at the Porsche dealer who didn't know any better, I believe he was subsequently fired. Once I got the evidence, I called Global and threatened the **** out of 'em. I had driven the car a month. They not only gave me back every penny I paid for the car, I also recouped my cost for plane ticket for a friend and me for the way down, gas money for the way back and they paid a driver to come tow it from St. Louis, all the way back to Houston.

Thanks to the original poster for sharing this. It's always good to read one of these stories every once in awhile just to keep us all on our toes. I agree that Bent996 probably did about as much due diligence as the average used car buyer. Most of the time, the buyer probably comes away OK, but that's mostly a matter of luck as it's obviously not enough to have a salesmans's assurance and a sticker on the windshield. Is it possible to track down the name of the second owner of the car? I'd probably give that a try and see if that owner's story would be useful in determining where the car's "story" was suppressed. In any event, good luck.

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Yes it is I just found out how and sent off the paper work to my states DMV. It costs $40 to get a certified copy and takes 4 to 6 weeks. Should be interesting.

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Yes I agree- I often have to ask myself what if I had bought this car/had this same problem. Most of the time people are reasonable and normally the cost to help someone vs. the cost of future business tells me to pay now and get back later- after 15 years in this business this has paid off for me.

I've found that it's always good to have a buddy alonh who knows that era Porsche. LEt the buddy drive it and give you feedback. I used to do that for friends and it saved them a lot of trouble when "full disclosure" wasn't happening...

wow! I really wish you the best of luck with your pending litigation. Please let us all know how this pans out for you. BTW - Edgy, great color on your cab!

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Well said. I think the OP has definitely gotten screwed here, but buying any P-car without a quality PPI is just asking for trouble. Any time I have contact with a car dealer, I just assume they're trying to screw me.

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This is somewhat of a tangent but I would imagine most of the board is the same way as far as always having done due dilligence regardless of the car. I feel this is likely why many on the board can afford Porsches whereas the general population cannot. Just like you are thorough with a car you are likely thorough with your job which in turn makes you successful. It is a positive character trait that in this case manifests itself with doing a great job when buying a car. Keep up the good work.

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Then there are those of us who wander through life and just get lucky as ****!

Make sure you get a quality PPI. I've seen Porsche shops offer a $250 PPI and never open the engine compartment. When they were questioned specifically about engine condition, THEN they mentioned that required further checking and wasn't considered part of a normal PPI. So ask the shop what they do on a PPI and list it on this forum before you really think you have any assurance of the condition of your car. Even then, you RMS or IMS can go bad next month. I'm not being negative, just realistic. You just can't protect yourself 100%. I think the OP did all anyone can be expected and hindsight is always 20/20.

I feel bad for you, they should have never sold it to you. The only thing I am wondering is how you didn't notice that the car was screwed up during the test drive? Didn't you test drive a few cars back to back.

if the damage repairs do not make it to an insurance company carfax will not know.

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The roads around the dealership are heavily crowned. I thought that the pulling was due to the road and not the car. As for Carfax/Autocheck... they only know what is reported to the DMV. As I have now come to learn most insurance companies only report total losses.

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You are probably correct.

Although Carfax is definitely not the iron clad guarantee of a truly clean car they would like us to believe, the report can have value. I have used it numorous times over the years, typically to look at transfer history and on some vehichles, the Porsche was one, some service history. If nothing else the report provided me with some transfer info that I then used with sellers, both private and dealers. The old addage, "ask questions you already know the answer to" has paid off. When a dealer swears the car is a local trade from a regular customer but the carfax shows sold at auction out of state, I walk away quickly. Here is where a full carfax report had value for me; about six years ago my elderly Father bought a low mileage, clean, local recent trade from a local dealer. I was travelling when he bought it, it was such a great deal he couldn't wait, but when I got home he called me to tell me about the great car. I went over and looked at - paint way too fresh, tell tale overspray in a wheel well and the paint was soft on the bolts on the fenders under the hood. Wiring harnesses patched together with electrical tape, rode down the road doggy style and floated like crazy. My pop, when he could drive, probably did a whopping 35 mph at best so he thought the ride was luxurious. And here is where carfax comes in. I went home, pulled the full report and found the car had been through multiple auctions and the selling dealer purchased it at auction out of state 10 months prior to the sale to my Father. I don't remember the mileage exactly, but it had very few miles in that 10 months. So, happy ending, I sent my Father back to the dealer with the folded carfax in his pocket, I don't know the details as I wasn't present, but my Father came back with a check in full for his purchase price and transfer fees. He said the carfax did the trick. As someone posted previously, you can't 100% eliminate risk from the purchase, but we, as buyers, do have more than one resource to minimize the risk. It sad that we have to approach our dealings as if there is intent to mislead us or to outright rob us, but it is as it is.

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Yup, I've had the same thing. A dealer actually had the gaul to claim one thing that totally contradicted the carfax report. I even asked him follow-up questions to give him a second chance. He continued to lie and I walked away.

I was recently hit hard in my daily driver. The party that hit me has State Farm insurance. They decided that the car was repairable and cut a check to begin work. Fast forward three months and the car is finally fixed. I take the car to a local well known dealer and they offered me $10,000 less than book trade in value because the car comes up dirty on Carfax. Now what do you do? I didnt choose to get hit and I have to eat the difference in the cars value because of the accident? The insurance companies are quick write checks for repairs but what about being worthless afterwards.... I am now actively persuing a "diminished value" claim.

The moment I found out that car was in a "Major accident" I would have demand my money back and if they didn't I would have driven it through the show room windows... hey accidents happen right?

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Hah!

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I agree fully. As such, I'm rather perplexed as to why the poster continued in his attempts to get the car's maladies corrected. Again, and again. Andreas

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Wishful thinking perhaps. With me it's rarely about the money it's about the aggravation/time spent and I'm happy to throw money at a problem to make it go away. I gather he sees it that way too

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Yep, I couldn't bring myself to admit that I had been taken by a used car salesman. That and the mechanic, who I now believe is in bed with the selling dealer, kept trying to convince me that it wasn't bent. Recall that the car had been repaired just not very well. Before replace most of the suspention the mechanic suggested that perhaps it had been driven over a curb or hit a 2x4 on the freeway. I wanted to believe that it wasn't that bad. Ultimately Laser frame alignment tables don't lie. In hind sight I should have done as the previous poster suggested and driven it through the window of the showroom. Hell maybe I could have taken out a few of the turbos. Then they could fight with my insurance company about diminished value. Damn that would be fun to watch!

Thought that everyone might be interested in what a laser frame measurement sheet looks like. The shop that did this told me that are doing this as part of a PPI for a lot of expensive cars. You should figure about $200 to have it measured. The numbers are in mm and blue is inside of manufacturer's spec while red is out of spec. The body shop believes that somebody tried to pull the unibody straight but didn't have a way to mesure it accurately enough. I am told that the equipment is expensive.

I've been a student of the Art of Car Selling/Buying since I got my pooper handed to me over a new 5 liter Mustang fresh out of college. They got me on Price, Interest rate, fees and a lemon of a car. That lesson motivated me to become the Shark that I am today with several notches on my gun for getting salespeople fired for negotiating deals that made the sales manager cry like a little girl . Here's what I've learned. In this day of strengthened lemon laws and dealers being required to divulge any and all information about the history of the cars they sell, they have found it more profitable to simply not know much at all. It is a don't ask/don't tell situation when the car is traded in or purchased at auction. What they don't know they can't be accused of not divulging. Typically, people buying used exotics can't afford them at full purchase price and are usually so excited about the prospect of getting a beautiful "like new" looking car that they will overlook a lot and hope for the best. They don't won't to ask the hard questions because the truth might prevent the dream from coming true. They might have to face the fact that the car they want can't be had in good shape for the money they have. THey roll the dice... Salespeople are treated like second-class citizens by the dealerships they work for. They are usually disgruntled and, if handled correctly, this can be taken advantage of while negotiating. But it also can lead to them doing unscrupulous things to turn a commision buck. You can never trust them to be completely honest (not in their best interest to care about you). I go in with cold hard numbers and an indifference to their concerns. I treat them before the sale like they are going to treat me after. I am generally a very cordial and aggreeable person. The patience I display everywhere else gets balanced by how I pound salespeople to dust... Life is all about balance

Best post I've heard in a long time!! I strive to do everthing epegesus does and I've generally done pretty well and learned from every purchase. I'm probably gonna get HOSED when it comes time to sell my M3, but I just HAD to have it brand new!! First time i've done it. When buying used, you ALWAYS have to get a PPI!!! NO MATTER WHAT! I made a few thousand off the Caddy I bought and broke even with the Boxster S. You have to be patient and shrewd when dealing with salesman/dealers....and NEVER trust what they say!

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I trust Al Bundy.

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After 15 years of making a living selling cars and not "being a student" I can say that this is complete BS! What planet are you on? Where are you buying cars from anyway????

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Maybe you can offer some slightly more constructive counter-points? My understanding has served me well. You calling it BS makes my experience no less a reality.

Sorry that I am passionate about this and a little rude. The people that think for some reason that car salespeople are beneath them and feel the need to "pound them to dust" I have little time or respect for. If you think car salespeople are bad have you ever been in a lawsuit with greedy lawyers? Ever dealt with a kinky mortgage broker? There are lots of professions that are worse than this one and most car sales people are trying to make a living and are not generally dishonest people. I have never "cried like a little girl" or fired a salesperson over a deal and the "sharks" that think they are so great at what they do are generally just jerks who pay more profit to me than a nice guy who will work me the right way.

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Lanny, chill man. He wasn't saying all salesmen are bad. He's saying you have to go into it and be ready for anything. Car salesmen are there to make as much off of you as possible, that's ALWAYS true. That's just the way the game is set up. There are ALL sorts of tricks they use to get MORE money, you KNOW that! Therefore, he was saying, YOU have to know the tricks and turn them around. It's not easy, but you have to get them to go down and resist all the tricks. There are few other professions in the USA where you are "haggling" as much and dealing with such an expensive product that can have so many issues or have so much info withheld that can hurt the buyer more...as seen in this and countless other posts. Used car salesmen have to be watched out for. It's not our fault they give "you" a bad name. I have had too many try and overcharge or rip me off, say one thing and do another. They are the most unscrupulous people in business, so I have found. I payed $50k for a flood damaged Porsche and flew 2000 miles to pick it up. Guess what, they KNEW it was a flooded car and still sold it to me!!! With respect, If you don't like how you are perceived by people, you need to grow thicker skin or be in another profession. Anyone who says, just trust the (used car) "salesman" is a fool!! Lawyers are hated cause when you need them, you HAVE to pay, often more than you can and there's no other option. Im not even sure why there are so many sleezy mortgage brokers, but there are. But they don't hold a candle to a used car salesman. If ANYONE here can think of another profession trusted less, PLEASE let me know.

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For the record, there are good car dealerships but they are far and few in between. I had a dealership try and hook me with a 27% interest rate on financing. When I let them know that I knew I had exemplary credit they claimed it was a case of mistaken identity. Had another get so mad at me for paying cash he still tried to insist on running my credit just to **** me off. Another salesmanager attempted to hold my new car (paper work signed) hostage unless I paid an additonal $1,500 because the deal his salesman cut was too low. I have purchased 15 cars/motorcycles and I can only recall a couple where some funny business wasn't attempted by the salesperson or the dealership. Oh, and then there was the time the service department wanted to charge me $200 to activate a new set of fobs. Told me this story about how the vehicle had to be hooked up to their diags. to have the ecu reprogrammed. Then I watched as the tech walked out to the car and programmed the fobs in 3 minutes... 2 cars had been previously wrecked. One didn't officially belong to the dealership and the list goes on and on if I were to talk about all the deals I walked away from. But I have come to accept that as simply how it is done. I refuse to buy from any of the no negotiation dealers like Saturn or CarMax. The latter typically gets $3000 in profit per car (insider info from a neighbor who works part time for them). Ultimately, if a dealership agrees to meet my price how bad of a deal is it? On the flip side, when a customer comes in and pays full retail I bet no one at the delership tries to stop them...

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For the record, there are good car dealerships but they are far and few in between. I had a dealership try and hook me with a 27% interest rate on financing. When I let them know that I knew I had exemplary credit they claimed it was a case of mistaken identity. Had another get so mad at me for paying cash he still tried to insist on running my credit just to **** me off. Another salesmanager attempted to hold my new car (paper work signed) hostage unless I paid an additonal $1,500 because the deal his salesman cut was too low. I have purchased 15 cars/motorcycles and I can only recall a couple where some funny business wasn't attempted by the salesperson or the dealership. Oh, and then there was the time the service department wanted to charge me $200 to activate a new set of fobs. Told me this story about how the vehicle had to be hooked up to their diags. to have the ecu reprogrammed. Then I watched as the tech walked out to the car and programmed the fobs in 3 minutes... 2 cars had been previously wrecked. One didn't officially belong to the dealership and the list goes on and on if I were to talk about all the deals I walked away from. But I have come to accept that as simply how it is done. I refuse to buy from any of the no negotiation dealers like Saturn or CarMax. The latter typically gets $3000 in profit per car (insider info from a neighbor who works part time for them). Ultimately, if a dealership agrees to meet my price how bad of a deal is it? On the flip side, when a customer comes in and pays full retail I bet no one at the delership tries to stop them...

I am a Saturn dealer and we DO negotiate. I have sold many different makes but mostly managed with the same owner group who does not pull this type of crap. I am truly suprised that you have had so much trouble. I just find it odd that I take trade-ins all the time that are jacked up from our "honest" public that I have to end up wholesaling out - you must be buying these cars

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Right on Lanny, I think Saturn kinda does have a different philosophy, that I find very respectful, the only problem is that wheeling and dealing is all part of the game. Bottom line is, no matter WHO you're dealing with, don't trust anyone's word and ALWAYS do your "due diligence."

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Right on Lanny, I think Saturn kinda does have a different philosophy that I find very respectful, the only problem is that wheeling and dealing is all part of the game. You have somethign I want, I have the money to buy it. I can go somewhere else or not buy it, you have to get as much as you can, i wanna give you as little as possible. Bottom line is, no matter WHO you're dealing with, customer OR salesman don't trust anyone's word and ALWAYS do your "due diligence." If I as a customer can unload a trade in on you and I know it's been wrecked, but you can't prove it, or that I knew it, you think I'm worried about it? Hell no!

I am pretty sure that in my state (New York) you have 30 days to get a refund from a used car dealer. The dealer is also given time by the auctions if they want to return the car for a refund as well. Once the 30 days are up I think you have very little leverage at that point.

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You know, I've heard this before and still don't believe it. I've bought a couple dozen cars in my time, and I've NEVER financed through the dealer, and not one has ever blinked an eye. Some of those transactions have been cash and some have been financed outside the dealership, but in either situation, I was paying cash as far as the dealer was concerned. A dealer getting upset because a buyer isn't paying cash is a good way for them to alienate a good chunk of their business. Did you give them any reason to believe that you were going to finance through them?

I have read most of this thread. I want to make something quite clear. As some have said, there ARE some good dealers out there that truly take care of their customers and do not hire yo-yo salespeople. With that said... To this day, I refuse to buy an exotic / sports car from dealers. Why? Because for the most part all they are selling is the badge. They know what they have and they mark it up. This story is simply another in the hundreds I have already heard. Some of the best reading on what dealerships (average dealerships mind you) is from Edmunds.com. They sent one of their editors to get "hired" as a salesman to learn what the scoop is. AMAZING what he learned and wrote about. http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying...2/page001.html Be warned...it is a bit long, but WELL worth the read. There is a VERY good reason they are called "stealerships." C.

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Yes even Saturn has figured out that to some extent it is hard to sell cars without someone feeling like they have won a little bit in the deal. I have no problem with someone wanting a good deal - the funny thing is how many people (including several I have read on this forum) think that they need to pay little or no profit when buying a car. How many of you stock inventory in your businesses that you pay interest on at an average for us of about 28K per car and think that we can survive on $500 profit? I just get a little pisssed that a car dealer cant make any money and we are all scum ect. I built a new home in 2000 and my friend who was the realtor showed me a cost vs. what I paid and it was double as it most retail business. At an average profit of $3000.00 per car with all finance and warranties ect. there are still several dealers in our group who are not making a profit. I just wish the public would pick on everyone else making money and not just us

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I just read this article and I embarrased to say that I have done the sell me the pen deal but most of this is very old school and not practiced anymore luckily.

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Lanny, GREAT points and you're TOTALLY right!!! Now we know why the dealership has to mark stuff up so much and charge way more per hour than the indie shops Truth be told, I love when I find a "good" salesman that I feel great about buying a car from. If he's honest and straight up with me and gives me the respect of knowing I understand the game. When he says listen, here's what we have to make on the car and makes me believe it AND if I like him, I'll buy from him cause of the respect and hard work he's put in. Being a good car salesman is a great thing and it's not that we don't have respect for you guys, we do. It's just buyer beware (of the bad ones). You, my friend, are the exception and THAT is why you're successful!! [hats off]

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I will finance through the dealer if they have incentives that yield a better rate than the credit union or bank are offering. That has been the case twice for me. This particular dealer was pissed because I was pitting him against a competing dealership. When he felt forced to beat the deal I was offered elsewhere he then asked for my information for the credit check. I told him I would be writing a check for the vehicle. The salesmanager (whom the salesperson kept going to for approval) stepped in and insisted that the credit check still had to be done as if he was suggesting my check would be no good. At the time, I worked for an automotive industry OEM part manufacturer and I knew I was leaving him with a 1500 over "true" dealer invoice. That plus the manufacturer's kick-back program that was in existence left he making a fair amount on the car but not the typical $5k they made off the unwashed. It cost me an additional $500 bucks to leave that dealership and go to the competitor who's best offer was that much more.

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Thanks!!

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Everyone who sales good/services has a bottom price he/she is willing to accept. That bottom price doesn't represent the poverty line. I make it a point to haggle down to that point. I didn't set that mark, the seller did. Their competition is who is to blame, not me. I fail to understand dealers who get upset because I am not willing to extend them charity. Besides, there are many who are willing to pay the premium. That is who subsidises my deals.

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GREAT point!! Sometimes you can get them to go beyond and below that "bottom line" price. That's the REAL fun!!!

Okay...the group hug has been done and everyone's feelings have been smoothed over. Now, we need to hear more from bent996! We need a name!

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[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/beerchug.gif

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I just can't name names until after this settles... God only knows how long that will be. I am hoping sometime this summer but who the hell knows. I can afford to drag this on for years if I have to. I won't just fade away and everyone here will find out all the names involved just as soon as I am allowed to disclosed those details.

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No, i need more hugs!!

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Ben, it's cool man. We understand!!