RoW030 vs X74 vs PSS9

First off, I've already done several searches and spent hours learning from previous posts. I have: a 2000 996 coupe, stock, and I recently purchased Dunlop R compound tires, which was a HUGE improvement. But, I have the neg camber maxed out at around .75 degrees, which is less than any R compound tire wants. Not surprsingly, after 2 track days, the outer edge of the front tires are wearing fast. Also not surprising is that my sticky tires are too much for my stock US suspension and high ride height. My alignment guy told me that GT3's have different suspension (coil over?), that allows much more negative camber. I'd ideally like to: 1. lower the ride height, 2. improve handling, 3. enable more negative camber, 4. use OEM parts. My options are: 1. RoW030, which would satisfy all but #3 above, at a cheap price. 2. X74, which is forbidden by the factory, but will work, and would satisfy my needs, but I'm not sure about the camber issue. 3. PSS9, which would do everything I want, but its not OEM, so its not ideal. My main question has to do with using the X74 kit. First, can anyone tell me with certainty whether the X74 would allow any more negative camber adjustment than stock? Regarding the fact that X74 isn't designed for 3.4 liter 996's because of "chassis reinforcement issues"; is it any harder on the car than PSS9, or any other aftermarket upgrade? Obviously, since Porsche doesn't sell those kits, it doesn't have to warranty or recommend them, but since they do sell the X74, they've issued this warning. Is the stress on the car any different from X74 suspension than it is from PSS9? Has anyone ever seen or heard of a problem resulting from the use of X74 on a 3.4 liter 996? Does anyone have a 3.4 liter 996 with X74 installed? If so, comments? Is the GT3 suspension coil over, or is it similar to X74? Or, is it exactly the same as X74? Any feedback would be appreciated.

I think the Porsche engineers know what they are doing. Stick with RoWM030. If you want more than that, then PSS9 is the way to go b/c of the adjustability and tune for yourr car. I would not put X74 on a 99-01 C2 b/c of the structural issues that can arise. Just b/c X74 could be fitted to a pre 02 car, doesn't mean it is the proper suspension for the car.

Ditto, but a c4 might get away with it if it could be fitted bc the frame is stiffer. I would stick with the porsche engineers, row 030. You will get more than enough camber for any street car even in the red run group.

I could sell you my GT3 suspension if you would like? That would solve all your issues. Let me know.

Like what kind of istructural issues? , I keep "hearing" about issues caused by PSS9's, X74's Sway bars, etc. on various forums There doesn't seem to be anyone that actually HAD an issue. Where can I get more information???

9nine6......search is your friend.

Like I said, I've done several searches, and learned a lot. But like 9NINE6, I haven't found any reports of anyone having problems because they put X74 on a 3.4l 996. If anyone knows of any such problems, please inform us. Also, if X74 is a bad idea, how can PSS9 be ok? Won't it put pressure on the same areas of the car? I'm not trying to disagree that X74 wasn't designed for my car, but I'd like to find out more about it. Another question that's yet to be answered is whether X74 allows more negative camber than stock. I'm guessing that it does not.

Cosmos - tell me about the GT3 suspension, is it a coil over setup? Do you know how it compares with RoW030 or X74 in terms of ride height and stiffness? I'm guessing its even lower and stiffer, and probably even more forbidden for my car than X74. How much? Why are you selling it?

Well, my x73 allows more camber,I have -1-1.5 in mine and it sticks like glue with cups, but how much do you really need in a street car? Not sure you can bolt on a GT3 suspension, or want to, remember the gt3 's frame is based off of a C4 frame. I would stay clear of pss9's for the same reason as the x74, fwiw pss9's are a street suspension anyway. I would trust porsche engineers on this one, why wouldn't they love to sell 99-01 guys the x74 at twice the price as the 030 if they could?

Porsche doesn't recommend the X74 on a pre '02 car, they obviously have their reasons. I would ask them if you want specifics, but I trust them. The ROW 030 is a great street/track setup.

FWIW, I have 4 way adjustable racing Motons, 1800 lb springs and full monoballs on my 99 and the chassis hasn't self distructed yet. I would guess that the factory is worried about squeaking in the earlier cars which could be a problem with a stiffer suspension. They worked lots of that out when the stiffened the newer 996s. dp, you've asked a couple of times if the GT3 suspension is coilover. All 996s have coilover suspensions. As I recall, the GT3 is different is a couple of ways. The coilovers are height adjustable, the spring rates are higher and the front has monoballs. The back has the same bushings as a stock 996 I think. They also have different sway bars. So, if you are buying a GT3 suspension, you want to know what parts you are getting. Additional camber can come from a number of sources. Just lowering your car via ROW M030, X74, PSS9 or whatever changes the geometry of your suspension and allows for more camber adjustment. For a little more cash you can add GT3 Cup Car adjustable lower control arms but beware that the minimum camber at that point may be more than you want. You can also install adjustable contol arms on top. Find a good independent Porsche shop that races cars and they can help you with all of this. BTW, I don't disagree with the advice you have received from Dell and others. I'm just a little less conservative when it comes to "Porsche says" stuff. There answers are certainly the safe ones. Jim

The X74 was a factory option for the -'01 3.4L and RoW only. It was never available as retrofit though.

Gert, It wasn't but a few months ago that you were trying to sell me the x74 that got stuck in the US. When I said I had questions because mine was a 1999, you told me that older 996 owners had installed the x74 and that it was ok. Which side of the x74 debate are you on?

The kit you enquired about was a Tequipment retrofit kit which is available for '02-'04 cars but can be installed on the -'01 cars without problem. My post above was to point out that there was indeed an optional X74 kit for the -'01 cars, so Porsche actually installed the X74 on the 3.4L cars.

Gert sold me a year ago a X74 kit for my 996 1998 C2. People here in Brazil think my car has a tuned engine because of my lap times... It's a completely new experience... I'll go with X74 again...

that ROW 030 will not enable more neg camber? my understanding is that any setup that lowers the car should also allow more neg camber. i'm confused. i thought that it was primarily the higher ride height of the US spec cars that artificially limited the achievable max negative camber.

Cosmos, I'm looking for GT3 sway bars, do you have a set for sale? Cheers, Stan

I've been searching and couldn't find on the site. Where's a good place to buy Row M030's for my C2? Thanks

i got mine ROW 030 from gert at carnewal, there may be suppliers on this side of the pond too...

i got mine ROW 030 from gert at carnewal, there may be suppliers on this side of the pond too...

I have an '01 C4 with the X74 kit installed. I don't track the car but I have not experienced any problems with the new suspension since the kit was installed almost a year ago. Gert sold me the X74 kit also.

Thanks for the info.

Is RoW030 still agreed upon for the best trouble free from US spec upgrade? I thought Speed Demon installed X74 a while ago with satisfactory results. Has any PSS9 upgrade owners experienced problems after install and what is the proper height for mainly street setup? I will be tracking in the future but given my current time commitment to work, track is not going to be a regular activity.

another option you have is to get the GT3 suspension, it will work in your car and its OEM..

right on! What is the ride like compared to X74? PSS9 and RoW030s have a softer ride in comparison? given that it is going to be a 90%+ street car for a while, would a GT3 suspension setup be too harsh of a ride?

Never had any issues with suspension. The key for me was to find a shop with experience. We are luck in Seattle in that we have a few great shops one is the engineer for Alex Jobs Racing. Most every track rat takes their suspension projects to him. Bolting the sh9t on the car is easy. Alinement and set up for road, 2 or 3 different tracks and maybe autocross is different. We even get notebooks with different settings for the Motons and sways. Race experience can not be beat. Find the right guy and make sure they stay with you during the adjustment phase. Lastly, it is a good idea to stage the changes. That way you can pin down any issues. Unlike the pros we will have a tougher time articulating the little things to the guy doing the work. It also provides you(me) with a clearer understanding of what the parts do for the car.

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First, the GT3 has 2 additional methods of adjusting camber that are not on a standard Carrera: adjustable lower control arms and adjustable upper spring perches in front. On a regular Carrera, the front suspension is camber limited. Normally, even with moderate lowering, you are limited to about -1 degree camber. The rear on the other hand can get up to -2.2 degrees of camber stock. The upper strut mounts on a GT3 can be turned around to add about an additional -1.5 degrees of camber. The GT3 lower control arms are 2-piece. You can place shims between the pieces to wider the control arms. This not only adds camber, but also has an additional handling advantage in increasing track. Going to a different suspension is different from a camber issue. The stiffer and shorter travel the suspension, the greater the need for camber will be. You typically change suspensions to increase coll stiffness for faster response and change balance for different handlign characteristics. If all you are lookong for is more camber, you shoudl start with a set of camber plates or GT3 control arms.

An issue with the GT3 suspension is that it is designed for a car that is very different than the C2. The GT3 is a much stiffer tub. With that it requires a different suspension. Find a trustworthy local race shop. Their business is dependent on providing you the right solution. We can tell you anything.

Thanks. I am planning to drop my car off with the parts (once I can get the feel for which setup I should get) and let the shop have it for as long as they need to tune it. I never thought this would be so confusing due to the options available.

FWIW - I have PSS9's on the 996. Love the adjustability. In, fact just dropped them to full soft and they are VERY comfortable and compliant on the street. At the other end...full stiff will likely be perfect for track. C.

i've never run an aftermarket set of coilovers (Ground Controls on the s2000, tcklines on the e46 m3, and now pss9s on the 911) where the ride has been rendered uncomfortable because of the extra firmness, stiffness. you get what u pay for. i go for adjustable coilovers for a firmer ride with good dampening and just as important, the better looks. all of this with day-to-day reliability. pss9s are a street coilover along with the factory kits. if you guys are serious about tracking your 911, you need to spend about $1K per corner (MOTONS, Ohlins, etc) and also get someone who has a good feel for suspension tuning which is a black magic unto itself. but if you are serious about tracking the 911 and have graduated to these levels, you already knew this.

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The ROW 030 and the X74 are both simple swaps. PSS9's are a little more difficult but a competent shop should have no issues.

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Not true, the GT3 uses a standard C4 chassis. It's a tad stiffer up front than the C2 chassis, but the GT3 set-up will work fine on it.

I am not just satisified with the x74...I really like it. Very firm ride for rough roads, but smoother roads it does ride well, and the car handles great on the street and motorways. Can't wait to test it out on the track next year via DE's. Here's a link to the install which is really easy as it is an R&R, nothing to compress, just an alignment afterwards of course. https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ferrerid=54027

FWIW, I've had ROW M030 on my car for a couple months now, and I really like it. At first, I was worried it make my car uncomfortable or harsh, but that is certainly not the case at all. It actually feels very similar to the stock suspension in terms of comfort, and going over bumps and crappy roads isn't an issue like I thought it would be. It made my car much, much better in the corners and it feels more stable. I drove to Michigan and back with this suspension and there was never a time that the extra stiffness grew tiresome or uncomfortable. It also evened out the stance and lowered it a little bit. I think it's the perfect suspension for the street.

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100% correct. The GT3 (996) chassis is in fact based on the C4. If has a marginal increase in rigidity that can be duplicated with additional welded points and supports on the front, roof and primary subframe. C.

but isn't a suspension tuned to more than just the chassis? the gt3 has more power, more brake, it is Very diff from a regular carrera, no?

If it needs additional weld points then it IS NOT the same. The GT3 is seam welded which makes it stiffer. So if you just bolt on the parts and expect it to feel the same as a GT3.. it will not.

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I don't see why that matters.. You would end up with a Carrera with a very capable suspension. Just because you don't accelerate as fast a GT3 doesn't mean that for some reason it won't be able to go around the corner properly. And the brakes - how does that matter? The suspension doesn't care if you can stop 4 feet quicker from 70mph.

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+1 However, blingmeisters beware this set-up is not for the faint of heart. It is significantly stiffer than stock, ROW 030, or PSS9's.

sorry but Ben is right. It all matters if you are at speed. Does not mean that putting a GT3 suspension will not be an improvement to stock.

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More misinformation. The standard GT3 is not seam welded, it is a standard 996 C4 chassis period. I won't argue, that the engine and tranny are waaay different than the standard 996. However, you are mistaken to believe the chassis is significantly different. It is not.

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No what it means is that putting a GT3 suspension on a 996 will make it handle just like a GT3. Furthermore, both a standard 996 and a GT3 can be improved to handle better than a stock GT3.

That is why I have TRG and Moton's. However I am not kidding myself into think my GT3 handles like a Cup.

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Actually, there isn't that much of a difference between the 2. The only structural difference is in the front as the GT3 is on a C4 chassis instead of a C2. The structure is boxed between the front strut towers. There is absolutely no change in the rear structure between a C2, C4 or GT3. Only the 2nd generation 996 GT3s (03+ ROW or 04+ US) are built on C4 chassis. The 1st gen 996 GT3 (99-00 ROW) was actually built on the C2 chassis as at its inception, there was no C4 chassis. Hence why the 1st gen GT3 was so much lighter. Here are all the suspension differences: 1. Different front spindles/uprights/hats. Contrary to common myth, they are not the same as a Turbo/C4/C4S. They are only common to the GT2 and GT3. The primary reason for the change is the different position of the brake mounting points to facilitate mounting the larger brakes from the Turbo. It is a different part from the 4WD cars, due to being designed for a standard spindle insert instead of a axle flange. C4/C4S/Turbo axles won't fit GT2/GT3 uprights. 2. Adjustable coilovers (Bilstein shock with H&R springs) instead of traditional coil springs fixed mounted to Bilstein shocks. These are a direct fit on a regular Carrera. The gen 1 ROW version was actually about 15% stiffer than the gen 2, which was tuned for slightly better road compliance. Both the springs rates and shock valving of the 03+ ROW/04+ US 996 GT3 is very similar to the ROW M030 spring rates and shock valving. 3. Adjustable sway bars with different end links. The sway bars are a bolt-on for Carreras, but need difference adjustable end links due to ride height changes. 4. Split front lower control arms versus the regular 1 piece control arms. The 99-00 ROW GT3 did not have split control arms in front. Those cars came with a reinforced control arms that was stiffer than the Boxster based ones that came on the early 996. One of the improvements for 02's was all 996 Carreras got the stiffer control arms that were used on the gen 1 996 GT3. The split control arms were introduced on the GT2 and later the 03 ROW GT3. They are a direct bolt-on to a regular Carrera. 5. The rear track arm is different on all GT3s. There is a slight length difference on the rear track arm for a slightly different toe-gain while cornering/loading the suspension. This is also a direct bolt-on to a Carrera. As you can see, the suspension in the GT3 is really a bunch of parts that could be bolted directly onto any Carrera. The GT3 suspension can also be easily improved on: aftermarket boxed/split control arms with pivot adjustable track arm mounts, competition-duty inverted coilovers with adjustable shocks, monoball uprights, solid lower bushings and adjustable sway bar end links are all common upgrades for a GT3 to a more dedicated track setup.

People, Is there a better place to pick up a set of GT3 Sways and drop links than carnewal from Belgium? PSS9s are coming on Friday and my mechanic, who used to swap/replace them at the race tracks, gave me a great price for install and alignment. Now, I need sways and links... TIA

Sunset Porsche in Oregon. Porsche parts at cost +15%!

Thanks Tim. You are the best!! Here are the part numbers for the GT3 sway bars and hardware. (Thanks to Paul 996) Front: Stabiliser: 996 343 701 90 Stabiliser mounting (bushing): 996 343 792 16 (need 2) Clip (metal piece that holds bushing): 996 343 777 01 (need 2) Rear: Stabiliser: 996 333 701 90 Stabiliser mounting: 996 333 792 21 (need 2) Clip/Clamp : 996 333 777 01 (need 2) New adjustable front drop links are needed (since the stock units don't fit anymore) and the rears are optional unless you wish to corner balance the car and take out any pre-load. Send me a PM if your are interested in some front drop links. I know a guy that sources them himself. Last thing. Just learned from my dealer that you can re-use your existing Clips that hold the rubber bushings.

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Thanks for posting up this info. It's a good read.

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That's correct, you can re-use the existing clips. There's one thing that took me some time to figure out during the install as it didn't seem logic to me at the first place; just to let you know: the thick GT3 bar goes in the front and the thinner bar goes in the rear.

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Thanks a lot hwk72. I have PMed Insite for the drop links (Thank You!!) and Chads996 have found a excellent source for the GT3 sways. Insite has not been on Rennlist for several weeks and his email got bounced back.... I now need bushings which I don't know the spec to the rear bushings come in 3 different sizes and I don't know which to get. Would you have that somewhere per chance?

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PM sent

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PMed back. Thanks again Harold.

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Hi, Very good read and very informative. There is one error here that I would like to correct for everyone. Having recently upgraded suspensions from M030 to a MKII GT3 I can state with absolute confidence that they are in no way of similar spring rates or shock valving. The GT3 suspension is considerably stiffer. M030 spring rates are Front: 170 lbs/in and rear 260 MKII GT3 spring rates are Front: 228 lbs/in and rear is 543 The M030 shocks are valved fairly softly at F 146/63 and R 227/132. The GT3 shocks are valved considerably higher as it is notoriously over damped (unfortunately being new years eve I don't have the specs in the notebook that is with me). So the front springs are 34% stiffer and the rears are over 2x stiffer. Cheers! Paul

i bet you guys would have a real fan club response if y'all posted this up in the gt3 forum

I had both on my 02 C2 and liked both. If you are willing to adjust the shocks, many think they will but never do, then you might get some gains with the PSS9 setup. However, for just putting a set on and driving the X74 is a very nice setup. I drove both sets on the street and track. It was hard to pick the winner. Both cars had GT3 Sways. With the X74 setup I was able to run a 1:20 at Putnam on fresh RA1's. Not the greatest time but I was happy with it.