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YOUR RESEARCHMaking sure I have this straight...
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Problem is the typical failure of the M96 which requires total replacement is not caught by PPI, at least from what I have read here over the years.
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Right now it's in the shop getting the lifters replaced (~$5000, covered by warranty).
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You can increase your comfort level by buying a car with a new engine and had the RMS, intermediate shaft replaced but there are still no guarantees.
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high mileage, engine replaced lately, warranty, etc.).
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Oh did we mention that not all Porsche owners are on this forum, so you cannot base your decision on a forum frequented by a small percentage of owners (although i believe it is a good percentage for Rennlist but still not enough to base any decision from), that goes for any forum.
From reading countless old threads, I've gotten the impression that:
A) Most 996's will need a new engine sooner or later
B) I should look for one that just had a new engine put in
Am I wrong?
All 996's will blow their engines. You should sell them to me immediately. I will give you $1 for each currently running car you bring!
I did a lot of research before I bought mine. We must have read different threads.
Sorry, don't mean to offend! Just going by what I've seen.
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...uying+used+996
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...uying+used+996
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ght=new+engine
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ght=new+engine
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ght=new+engine
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ght=new+engine
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ght=new+engine
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ght=new+engine
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ght=new+engine
You have to keep in mind how many 996's there are, how many posts you have read and how many posts of blown motors you have seen. The blown motor folks will always be louder and in much higher numbers than the happy campers.
Yup, I'm a happy camper.
993? Yuck.
A 996 at which I'm looking just got a new motor at 60K miles. Better to let the previous owner pay for it, right?
Okay, had many sips of wine all afternoon. Putting keyboard away for now...
Realistically, have you ever been to any forum, (car, computer, camera, espresso, watch ...) where anyone initiates a post to say "Hi--no problems here."
Well...as I'm a member of many forums, some are predominantly a sharing of experiences, others are asking for info on how to fix problems. I see an awful lot of posts on here asking about how to repair stuff.
Yea, see your point. Most of the places I hang out seem to be forums predominately on how to help others fix or improve things--e.g. Apple, DPreview, renntech. rennlist, etc. What put RMS in perspective for me was to things--first, stats that is is really not 100% sure, and also that, unless coupled with a more serious problem, the fix is about $800, which, just by coincidence, was what I just spent to fix an oil leak on my Honda riding mower . . .
That's cool. I'm trying to get educated because I want to find myself in the "very happy overall" category and not the "totally pissed, remorseful, and broke" category.
Of the two cars I'm comparing currently, one has 80K+ miles and the other has around 60K miles but just got a new engine with a one year warranty. The lower mileage car seems better to me because A) it's lower mileage, B) it just got a new engine, and C) that engine has some warranty. Seem reasonable?
Oh did we mention that not all Porsche owners are on this forum, so you cannot base your decision on a forum frequented by a small percentage of owners (although i believe it is a good percentage for Rennlist but still not enough to base any decision from), that goes for any forum.
If you want true stats you have to get every owner to tell you there experience, and I can tell you this, it is going to be most definately more positive than you think it is, this forum isn't going to give you the 'real' stats. You can use this forum to assist you with repairs, mod's etc. You want a forum where knowone has any problems with there cars, good luck in finding one.
BTW...my car, although only owned for less than a year, is strong and will be used to it's potential.
You want a car not to break, then don't drive it, just start it up now and then an admire it
Yes. Go with the new motor and you'll have a nice P car to enjoy like most of us on this forum. Mine is original with only 40600 miles, and it runs great! The prices are a steal and this forum has lots of info.
Truth be told, that's the level of reliability I've come to expect from my previous cars. My last three cars (all Japanese) topped 100K miles without
any
mechanical issues. Not a single one. Zero. Other than regular oil changes, tires, and scheduled service, my total unexpected repair expenses have been $0. I haven't had to worry about a rebuilt engine since I owned an '83 Ford Bronco and an '85 CJ7.
I know that I'm looking at a completely different level of performance and driving experience now, and am ready for the additional maintenance and costs (I think). I just want to increase my odds of being on the happy side of the equation like you all were fortunate enough to find yourselves.
Thanks for your input.
Nat [learning new things every day]
Your welcome, but keep in mind, even though you find that car that is just perfect in every way you want it to be, anything can happen anytime so you just have to ask yourself, am I ready when that happens. And if nothing happens then fantastic, you are in the majority of Porsche owners.
Yep a Porsche cannot be looked upon as your previous cars, those cars did not have the performance history that a Porsche Carrera 911 has, and you will definately want to push the envelope with the car.
So find your self one with low miles and don't be put of if an engine has been replaced, you do not know how they drove it for the prvious engine to fail, they may tell you it just went, but did it.
Good luck on your search and hopefully we will welcome you to the Porsche family soon
Like you Nat, I did a bunch of research before buying my 996 this past January. My consenus was that for a high performance sports car, the 996 is as reliable as they get. Just put in gas, change the oil and go. I bought a 3rd party warranty just in case because I heard maintenance was expensive. So it's been one year, and how did I fare? So far I've had to replace the MAF in April because my 996 came with a crappy K&N filter which was over oiled and clogged it (not Porsche's fault). That was $800 covered by warranty luckily. I replaced the rear tires in August ($700 paid by me). Right now it's in the shop getting the lifters replaced (~$5000, covered by warranty). I only went for replacing the lifters because I have the warranty. Otherwise I would have put up with the noisy lifters since it only happens when real hot anyway. I'm glad got the warranty, but overall this car has been nothing but a total BLAST to drive and very reliable. I've done 3 HPDEs and also very spirited mountain runs regaularly and I'm still nowhere near the limit of what this car can do. Just put in gas and go, you will love it. And if you can swing it, I recommend getting a warranty, just for the piece of mind. I too owned nothing but Japanese cars before this and the experience is night and day. Japanese cars are typically designed for economy and reliability first, performance second. Porsche 911s are designed for performance, reliability, and drivability all first. It's just on a different level.
My $0.02.
If your buying used anything can happen, I can tell you out of all the Porsche owners I know,not one has EVER had an engine failure.Its a car and all cars break !.The most common problem with the 996 (non turbo motor) is the rear main seal.You cant really think all these cars blow motors, if you did why would you be looking to buy a 996? Buy the newest you can afford and if possible get a CPO car, and the most important thing you do is get a PPI. I dont care what anyone says my C2 has 80K on it and almost all of that is driven hard..VERY hard to your surprise the car has never had a motor problem. My TT has 25 K and its a stage II car and driven just as hard if not harder and again no broke motor.Dont believe everything you read. If you want a true and honest story go talk to Bob.
I would go with the one that has a warranty - it will give you time to decide if you are happy with the car you get or whether you want to dump it/upgrade it/keep it forever. If you want to dump it, at least you can still sell it with a warranty before it runs out, if you decide to upgrade, the twin turbos are looking really resonable right now, if you decide to keep it, you will probably love it.
I would forget about the zero maintenance idea thought -that is Japanese only in my experience. At the very least these things need rear tires every year (if a daily driver), not to mention the MAF sensor and the o2 sensors which were not replaced with your new motor.
Either way, get the warranty after the current warranty runs out from a reputable company. Wish I had . . .
Good luck
I spoke to quite a few people before buying mine and they all wouldn't shut up about how reliable a 996 is and how good they are for a daily driver. So, I bought one. I was well aware of the RMS problem and even of the coolant tank problem, yet nobody had ever expressed concern regarding the intermediate shaft bolt and its failure. To cut a long story short: 3 weeks after buying my dream car my engine let loose.
I find it infuriating that the 996 has a design flaw that will cost you a new engine. It seems it's a crap shoot whether you'll have the problem or not later down the road. I was told that high mileage 996s with good maintenance records should be great cars. I should have done my research better. I would strongly advise anyone from buying a higher mileage 996 without a dealer warranty.
I can barely wait. My current car is a Subaru WRX, so that's what got my foot in the door to performance cars, but I'm ready to take it up a notch. Thanks for your input.
My 2001 C4 had over 50,000 miles on it when I sold it, and my 2004 C4S Cab has 62,000 miles on it. The 2001 had minor annoying things, but nothing engine related, the 2004 is as rock solid as they come. My wife's Lexus has been to the dealership more than my 911.
That shouldn't be a problem, right now the market is real soft and you can certainly get a great deal on exactly what you want. A 996 makes a perfect Christmas gift, I got my last year on 12/29 from eBay, yes eBay, and it was a totally easy painless no hassle experience.
Good luck!
I'm sure I'll find what I want sooner or later. My ideal purchase: black/black C4, 60K miles, absolutely clean PPI, under $30K. I've found several cars close, but none quite perfect.
Here's the kicker (and I'm sure it'll make some folks say, "decide already!"): I could be happy with either a 996 or a 964. I waffle between the two on a day-to-day basis. They're two very different cars that would satisfy me in very different ways.
Actually guys - There has been only like one blown engine thread since I started posting here, back in April of this year. I get the feeling that all (at least most) of the bad ones have all grenaded by now.
Seriously, when was the most recent blown motor thread posted Nat?
When I bought my car I went through exactly the same process you did...read the old woe is me threads, read a bunch of threads about cars making 100K miles, read every article I could about what could possibly go wrong. Ultimately I decided that in the worst case I would have to buy a new crate motor - so what, at the price these cars are selling for you're still way ahead of the curve.
I did end up buying a car with warranty left on it though....not much warranty, but enough to give me some peace of mind. Turns out the car is rock solid.
The most recent thread was a mere six weeks ago and is scary as shet:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...uying+used+996
I found out today that the 60K mile car with the new, warrantied motor at which I'm looking was built by Schatz & Krum in Sacramento, and that the motor must be serviced there if it needs anything. That pretty much means that the warranty is worthless unless I were to haul the car to CA.
http://www.schatzandkrum.com/
Edit: whoops, the most recent thread was started just nine days ago:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ght=new+engine
If you ask me, the worst case scenario of having to buy a new crate motor is a pretty bad scenario. I think UFO007 will attest to that. If I bought a car (even a used one) then needed to drop another $10K on a new motor right away I'd be pretty upset.
Honestly Nat don't take this the wrong way ,but i don't think you should buy a 996 or anything used for that matter, every manufacturer you will look at will have a story here and there. When buying used your taking a gamble and if you happen to loose on this bet it will cost you upwards of 10 K. Please.. please don't take this the wrong way, but if you cant afford to repair the car if the motor breaks then do your self the favor and don't buy the 996.
Actually I've been thinking the same things that you just typed. I have mostly bought reliable new cars in the past and have been trying to get comfortable with the idea of paying $30K for a 10 year old used car only to have something major fail within the first year. Needing a new motor is pretty major. Unless one's used to such catastrophes, you have to admit it'd be upsetting to anyone. Would you guys really just shrug your shoulders if your engine failed? You wouldn't be
a little
bummed? I'm not at that point.
If I knowingly pay a certain amount for a car, that's okay. If I pay a certain amount and then four weeks later [BOOM!] I unexpectedly need to pay another $10k, that'd **** me off because I would think to myself, "I should've just bought a better car for $10K more in the first place." So it's not so much a matter of being able to afford it, but a matter of not wanting to be caught blindsided by an unforeseen event. I don't think that's asking too much. I just don't like being caught off guard.
I'm looking at 911's because it has been a dream to have one since childhood. I suppose I could afford payments on a new 997 now and have the warranty, but I want to be responsible and not have a debt on a depreciating luxury. I'd rather just pay cash for cars instead buying them on credit and I can't quite pay cash for a new 997 yet.
You're right though, if I keep scaring myself I might just wait a couple more years and buy a new 911 off the showroom floor with warranty.
Edit:
Here's another way to (maybe) understand why I'm asking so many questions:
Car A costs N amount of money and tops 120K miles with minimal issues and needs a reasonable amount of maintenance.
Car B also costs N amount of money but falls apart rapidly and spends a lot of time in a state of disrepair.
Many of you have Car A. Some of you have Car B.
I want Car A.
So you are leaning towards a 996 then? Seriously....I've had a 911 and have many many many friends with 911's. Every one I know has a list of at least 6 things that need to be done at any given time. Some serious, some minor.
The 996 is a new car with exceptional build quality. Trust me, they don't fall apart rapidly. What *does* fall apart rapidly is a twenty-plus year old sports car which was originally designed 45 years ago.
But - once again - follow your heart. I made my choice and since day one I haven't looked back. I'm just glad I don't have to work on the car all the time....I can just drive it.
This morning I was leaning towards a 996. This evening I'm leaning towards a 964. 30 minutes ago I was leaning towards a 2008 Subaru STI. Right now I'm leaning towards buying a new house with a 5 car garage. This could get
really
expensive...
Uh-oh - I have to admit I've got two threads going, one here and one over on Pelican. The one on Pelican is an all out 911 vs 996 flame war. I got confused and posted a reply to your thread which was basically meant for the other one (oh-wah-tuhfoo-liam).
I just read your original post, and my recommendation is to buy a car which has had the motor replaced. The reman motors included ALL of the latest evolutions and I understand they are as reliable a M96 motor as you will find. Conversely, there have been more low failures with lower mileage cars than higher mileage cars. There's a sense that having these cars sit around is no good for them.
Ok - got to get back to my flame war.
The only car I have to work on is the Race car. The rest of my cars are bullet proof. I have been behind the wheel of a 911 for over 18 years. Logged over 200,000 Miles combined. The biggest repair bill I have ever had is my 86 Carrera blew the AC unit and the belt going 135 on I-5. I guess you are not suppose to go over 100 with the AC on....
Great comment " twenty-plus year old sports car which was originally designed 45 years ago." You ever driven one of those old hags??? The engine and gearbox design is superior to any 996. ( Not GT3) Call your local Porsche Mechanic and see what he says. He will agree, I guarantee it. They are great cars, great feedback and a blast to drive. Not refined like a 996, Honda or Toyota.
A properly maintained Carrera, 964 or 993 will out live any 996. That is a fact.... I am sure I will get flammed by you boy's. But for me there is no subsitute for experience. I may have a different opinion if one of my cars blew the motor.... The only one I worry about is the cup car. I am due to miss a shift.
A 996 is what it is. They have had some issues. All this guy is trying to do is sort it out his options. If he was asking me, based on my experience. I would sugest a 964 first. And Then a 993...never a 996.
Good luck..
Oh I've driven 911's... too many to count, and of course I owned my 3.0/webers/GE cams/liteweight SC with sport clutch for ten years. I relished every moment behind the wheel and every hour I spent underneath the thing replacing worn out stock parts with aftermarket go fast bits. The experience defines me for better or worse.
Superior to the 996 though.....not in my humble opinion.
Anyway, as stated my post here was unnecessarily inflamatory. It was meant for a flame war I was in the middle of over on the pelican 911 forum.
I don't usually cause any trouble - please forgive me.
I too have read alot of horror stories on the net but that can be said about everything; medical, airplanes, etc. You can increase your comfort level by buying a car with a new engine and had the RMS, intermediate shaft replaced but there are still no guarantees. I was told by a Porsche mechanic(Rector-Burlingame, CA) that all the major problems with the 996 were fixed or can be fixed with the new parts. Plus the new motor comes with a 2-year unlimited mileage warranty.... That was what I was told.
I love my 996 Cab, and prefer it over the M3 (the 996 handles better).
Good Luck!
Lin.
Nat, when I voiced the same concerns over 996 engine failures, mostly what I got were suggestions that I should not buy one if I could not afford that cost. What a BS answer. I can afford a 966, a new engine, and another 996 and another and another, and new engines for each of them. However, this risk seems unacceptable to me. And these folks saying this and that about you only hear from ppl who have trouble on the Internet, and all cars have issues, that is more smoke. Read the G35 and BMW and Audi forums. Those cars all have 300 hp too, just like a 996. Those Internet communities are just as active as this one. And I hardly ever see threads about them having to replace motors. This same concern has kept me from selecting which p-car to buy next. It's really quite frustrating. If not for my worry over these "rare" engine problems I would have bought one already. PS there are three local reputable independent p-mechanics around here, and all three say the same thing - 996 motors have issues.
Molly, I'll am guessing your "Chicken Little" attitude concerning not buying a 996 helps you sleep better at night. This is a good thing because it leaves one more 996 for someone who will appreciate the car for what it is and for what it can do, not what it "might" do.
BTW - just so we have all the bases covered, you can take anything to the extreme. Don't eat meat or fish because it is contaminated, don't eat poultry because of bird flu, don't eat vegetables because of pesticides, don't drink the water because it is polluted, don't go outside because the air is polluted. Stay inside and stay totally safe. Oh wait, you aren't safe there either because the toxic gasses from construction materials will poison you eventually. By all rights, if you believe all of the stuff you read, you should be dead by now.
And you are worrying that a 996 engine will grenade?
I don't know what she's smoking and am curious. I don't know of any 10 yr old Japanese, BMW or Audi cars with 300hp that don't require a certain level of mechanical attention.
I think everyone agrees that when you buy a used porsche, there may just as many abused cars as there are well maintained cars. As another member have suggested, you may want to buy a 996 with a remanufactured motor. They are around and will give you an additional level of security. That is a car with excellent value.
You don't walk to a used car lot and buy the first used G35, BMW or Audi you see either. Doing your homework, understanding the risks and set aside a mod/repair budget makes a difference. Keep in mind you are buying a car/semi exotic that may be 10 yrs old. You should read up on Ferrari maintainance that are 10 yrs old. Porsches are workhorses in comparison.
Good Luck in your search. Once you have found a prospective car, let us know about it and many people here can help you determine if you are on to a good car. You can also chose to buy a 996 from another Rennlist member, the car's maintainance record is usually available with a search function. Even better; the member would have kept all records for you to review.
Its guys like you that shouldn't have a Porsche. I bet your **** retentive bore..
Its called life take a fuc%ing a chance, if the car breaks repair it...I mean you can afford 2 996's and two spare motors, what do you care if you break?
Its people like you that make us hard working NORMAL Porsche guys look like ********
Yikes! Over-revved there a little bit.
So if I buy a 996 do I have to spike my hair, purse my lips, and buy a tan? Cuz I'll do it. I won't like it, but I'll do it...
Yeah, a 911 is not a Passat.
My Passat Variant has the excellent 2.0T with a 6-speed auto and can drive 100mph more stealthily, can carry more people, more stuff, more quietly, while returning more mpg.
Safe and predictable.
But is it a Porsche? No!
Like someone said in another thread, you can save $$ throughout your lifetime to pay for long-term care when you're 80 years old.
Or you can live now.
Live now (r).
Nat, used cars are always a gamble. Save your money and buy new. I have
found Porsche willing to bend over backwards to keep me happy when my car was on warranty. I know it's expensive to buy new, but you don't have to compromise. Order the color you want, wheel,ect..
And you don't have to worry about who was driving your car before you.
Even if you have to wait a little while. It's worth it. I don't think I will ever sell my car now. I can't find a good enough reason to trade in my garage queen for book value. Book is a joke. I might just keep her forever!!
Nat,
I believe this comment is directed towards Molly.
Kudos to you for doing your homework but also keep in mind that the search function is also an avenue to a wealth of information on this topic.
This topic has been discussed many times which is why some members here may be a little short.
Man, I've been hitting the search button all day long for about four weeks straight. That's why I know about the RMS leaks, bolt breakages, coolant tank leaks, ABS/seatbelt short circuit, and the dreaded engine failure topic.
Now let's do a little bit of math. How many 996s were made vs how many posts of problems did you count? Given that people do not get on forums and tell everyone how well their car is running, calculate the failure rate yourself.
It does not matter what the percentage is if I happen to buy one that does fall apart (let's ask UFO007 his opinion on this). I'm trying to learn all I can in order to minimize my chances of buying a bad car. That's better than being in denial and blindly following my emotions into a bad purchase.
Lest we forget:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...uying+used+996
OKAY THEN! I WON'T! I'D HAVE TO BE NUTS TO BUY A CAR THAT IS KNOWN FOR ITS POOR RELIABILITY AND DEPRECIATES FROM $80K TO $25K IN ONLY A FEW YEARS!
But can I still spike my hair, purse my lips, and buy a fake-tan?
You guys are funny.
Hey, should I get a 964? I'm told it's a better car.
[waiting for a bite]
Nat I think it is time for you to go! You have asked for peoples advice and they have given it to you now either buy it or don't because I do not think many people really care what you do with your money. I think you should by a new Civic, it will cost about the same, great realibility and will have a new car warranty. Best of luck and don't let the door hit you on you user ***.
Cheers
Speak for yourself; I think a lot of us had the same questions when we bought our first Porsche, especially if it was a 996. He sure seems to have some valid questions, and it DOES appear that he searched for some answers before posting.
For everyone that's tired of questions about the questionable reliability of the 996: am I the only one that skips over the topics I'm not interested in? I mean, gawd, I've been here for six months and am already tired of reading about short shift kits, so I don't bother reading those threads.
Good luck in your search, Nat...don't let the stupid comments influence your decision. Personally, I'd recommend finding a 996 with a remanufactured engine and 24-month warranty, which is exactly what I did. I probably paid a little more than I should have ('99 C4 for $33k about a year ago), but it's exactly what I wanted and I don't have to worry about engine issues.
I certainly did. I lurked and learned as much as I can without having to post. Its amazing what you can find just by reading. There is nothing in this thread that has never been discussed in depth before.
+1.
Here's the facts of life from an old dude:
1. All high end cars depreciate horrendously in the first three years. All of them. A third of the purchase price in three years is very common.
2. The more a car depreciates, the more regular people can afford it. The more regular people can afford it, the more vocal dissatisfaction there will be, since a) They're buying used and probably stretching for it at that, and b) They mistakenly believed that a more fun car is the same as a 'better' car. These are the people who think I am a moron for buying a Rolex. Then, the more vocal dissatisfaction there is, the more depreciation takes place producing a vicious downward spiral until finally, every moke with a credit line is driving one for the bragging rights and pissing and moaning because it's so high maintenance.
3. Buying a newer car is great if you can afford it and want to spend your money that way. Then, have fun. But if not, consider: A newer car WILL cost you more in depreciation than two new engines inside two or three years. For sure. An older car MIGHT cost you one new engine. Buy new because you like it, or because you want the better performance, but don't buy it as insurance. If you're that worried, buy a Toyota.
4. There are somewhere in the neighbourhood of 185,000 996s on the road. For the population of cars, the engine failure rate is probably high. But in absolute terms, the odds are still infinitesimal, and new engines are relatively cheap. Still, there is a risk, and this risk is the price you pay for the pleasure of owning one. This is how life works in general, in fact, grasshopper. If you tend to be afraid of life's best things going wrong, don't buy a Porsche. Or marry a beautiful woman. Or put up a really good wine. Or ski off-piste. I could go on, but I think you get the idea.
Now, go meditate.
I read once that already about 45% of all built 911 are water cooled and about 2/3 of all ever built 911 are still running. If you compare the 996 to other high performance small engine cars (>80hp per liter) then the engine failure rate of early 996 might not be so high, especially if you look at competition cars that are older than 7 years. If you compare the engine failure rate of 2003 and younger 996 to e.g. 2003 and younger Z350 and G35s, then the number of issues might not be so different after all.
Good post BruceP.
Yeah it's like you either buy it and enjoy it, or you don't because you overthink it. I was on the fence about buying mine, because I could have used the money elsewhere, or kept it in savings or blah blah. When I talked to my Mom about it, she told me to buy it and enjoy it - you only live once.
My Dad LOVED Porsches, and had a few when he was younger - in the early seventies. Twenty years later when he was a successful doctor, he test drove a brand new one, and my Mom told him to just buy it. He didn't think he "should", because he didn't really "need" it, and could buy something else instead. He never bought it, and within a year he died of a sudden heart-attack.
After that, I told myself I wasn't going to hesitate on my dream car when I got the chance, and I couldn't be happier with my decision. I drive this thing all the friggin time, all over the country, and it's the best car ever.
Until the warranty runs out and then.....no guarantee
What? Abort, abort, fire in the hole.
Look, the root of the frustration is that Nat is stuck on the glass being half empty and is convinced (going by his posts) that the risk to reward ratio is not worth it, he keeps going back to what if what if.
Once this became know, then it was like
The 996 is now a bargain, making it a reality for not only the rich to a enjoy. This alone is not good enough for some, they want this exotic sports car to be something it is not.
Compare apples to apples. Is a Ferrari know for its reliability and low cost maintenance? Are F-car fans/owners stuck on this,? How about Harley owners?
If the passion is not there don't buy it. If you got it and loose the fire, sell it.
Simple.
Be a big boy and make a move or move on.
I also read lots of food and cooking sites and if I saw reports this frequently about ppl experiencing catastrophic issues because of contamination, flu and pollution, then heck yes I might be concerned about eating as you suggest.
I am a male. And I did not say I was concerned about "a certain level of mechanical attention." I said that there is vast amount of Internet activity about other 300 hp cars out there, all with basically nil reports on stock motor failures.
That's a very dumb sentiment. Just because I have enough money pay for an unexpected and unfortunate costly event does not mean I should adopt a "what do I care" attitude about it. On the contrary, being frugal and caring about where my money goes is one reason why I have accumulated a chunk of it.
There are a more BMWs and G35s built, as much if not more forum activity, and yet a lot less reports of engine failures. By your math the 996 is relatively very risky.
Guys I'm no **** bore and I've had several p-cars, m-cars (bmw) etc etc. I love a 996. I want to get one. I very well may. But whether I have $10 or $10M, I would be quite mad if I had to replace a motor on a 7 yr old car with low miles especially due to what seems to be design or build flaws. Any of you who claim otherwise are lying. I could buy an used NSX or a 540 or an M3 or an S4 or an E55 and get stellar levels of performance and quality, and have almost no worry of the engine letting go. Would I prefer a p-car to these alternatives? Yes I would. I simply wish a 996 had as strong a rep. But then again, its rep is what has made it so affordable so I should be happy about that.
Ok, I'm brand new here but this sums it up for me. I wanted a 996 but just could not afford one that was in good enough condition. I bought a Boxster at a great deal. A year later prices fell far enough so I sold the Boxster and found a '99 996 in great shape, low miles.
Yes it is a risk. I will be out of a Porsche if mine has alot of costly issues but I was and am willing to take that risk to own the car of my dreams.
<shrug> Hence my confusion as to why several of you seem to be spending so much time in this thread. It's so useless, yet you just can't help yourself from looking, eh?
Well, that gets right to the heart of it, actually. It's a passion thing. Asked and answered. If we were all rational beings, well...
Nobody sits in their study pounding furiously on their keyboard, having a vein-popping verbal bunfight over their Yaris.
I'm halfway through the 2-year warranty on my replacement engine. Personally, I think I found the perfect situation because I didn't want to pay the high price of a CPO car, aftermarket warranties are hard to find, and I wasn't really worried about anything BUT the engine.
That said, I do agree that sometimes you just have to **** or get off the pot, but to me, he comes across as a pretty harmless car guy that just doesn't want to make the wrong decision. I can respect that, even if he's asking a common question. A couple of you almost seem personally offended, though, and I'm curious as to what we SHOULD be talking about in the 996 forum, if not this.
Not to defend the OP, but I do see where you are coming from, but the OP did start the thread more on the negative side rather than most 'looking to buy there first Porsche' people usually do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
#1 Post:
From reading countless old threads, I've gotten the impression that:
A) Most 996's will need a new engine sooner or later
B) I should look for one that just had a new engine put in
Am I wrong?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
It could have been worded differently, for example (and this is my 2 cents):
I am looking into purchasing my first Porsche, the car I have dreamt about for many years. But like any newbies about to spend a lot of money on a 'used' one, I have a big concern, specifically engine failure. This seems to be more common than I expected and a very costly repair. So I am wanting to get a better understanding as to what is the best thing for me to do in my decision making (i.e. high mileage, engine replaced lately, warranty, etc.).
I think that this would have started the thread on more of a positive note. But then the OP did get right to the point which is OK too, but maybe it would have been a different outcome if worded differently.
Again, my 2 cents only and I did my best to assist the OP but it seemed as if they had really made up there mind already and was trying to get us to convince them differently. I am sure the OP will enjoy driving around in a car that bllends in with the masses
It's not complicated: You're basically asking whether a certain decision is a stupid waste of money, of a bunch of guys who already made it. Blend in the aforementioned passion thing, and you're going to get a bunfight.
Search is your friend on a topic like this, and there are certainly lots of other ways to broach the subject if you have to.
I understand were you are coming from. It is nothing personal, just a dead end.
The blown motor thing has been beat to death and the answer he needs, or is looking for is one he has to come up with on his own.
He seems stuck on the UFO case, and I do feel for UFO.
So at that point his best advice was not to buy and move on.
Again, nothing personal
Bull****.....you views on these cars are well documented and biased. Anyone reading them would do well to consider the source.....
IMHO of course.
ps - the following example (one of many) is typical of your previous post about the 996.
Your a peice of work man...Consider the source.... Your experience with two wet sump cars Vs. mine.... You do the math. I think I have you figured out...
You are a want a be Porsche guy. You step up and spend big money on a 996 and a Boxter.... Then the **** hits the fan.. Both of your cars are depreciating at such a huge rate you realize you owe more than they are worth. You wish you could trade them in for a GT3 but you can't because you are burried in them...
You defend the 996 as if you built it. Facts are what they are. Evern the guys that own the cars will admit there are serious issue with the drive train...
Step up and take your medicine. You are never going to be able to save the value of the 996. When your engine blows you will say it all apart of the ownership experience... Right after you go to your local Credit Union for a second on your house to pay for the repairs...
Get off my ***... Nothing I have said on this forum before now was personal.... Just facts based on my interpretation of a inferior product. If you want to take it out on someone. call PCNA...
This thread has gotten so long that I can't remember if anyone mentioned an aftermarket warranty if he can't get a CPO car. If he buys a new enough car he can get a warranty from WarrantyDirect. Many here have used them with good results, IIRC.
That's all I am going to say on this thread/topic.
Totally uncalled for!
If you dislike 996's so much, why are you here on the 996 Forum? You can insult our cars all you want, I don't really care, because your opinion is just that, YOUR opinion. However, you stepped over the line by making a personal attack on a memberl! If you are going to try that kind of crap, you are not welcome here! Go back to the 993 Forum or the 997 GT3/GT2 forum!
You post at other forums... I think we all do.
I recieved a PM with some questions from the poster... If it matters.
I have made it very clear I feel that Porsche comprimized when they made the 996. ( I am not the only one...) I do like the styling, but not compared to other Porsche models. Why do you think Porsche dumped the egg headlights on the 997??
If the 996 had a GT3 drive train, ( like it deserves ) I would be a huge fan, I would own one and we would not be having this discussion would we....
As far as the personal attack is concerned... Maybe out of line, but I feel the guy earned it. He has been on my *** from day one.
I wonder if you go to the 997 boards and bash their ride as well since its' engine build and philosophy is the same... I dont think you really understand the intent of the carrera and gt3... both have specific roles in the market.
Similar to our military...the Army and Marines, though one or the other feel that their role have more of an important mission than the other... the fact is, that they are both potent with different purpose of mission in mind.
Nat that comment was not directed to you.
I want to clear things up here, this isn't a 964 vs the 993 vs the 996. These was a post about a guy asking if the cars we drive are junk, while i applaud his efforts it is a little insulting, While I am big boy and have thick skin I knew where he was coming from. I think most of us gave him sound advise What really pissed me off is Molly's comment.So Molly let me get this strait you can afford 2 996 and at least 2 spare 996 motors yet you wont own a 996 because it might break?. You must walk everywhere because we know you wont drive anything that breaks.
RS 197
I personally don't care if you think the 996 is worthy of the 911 heritage, all i can say is if a true sports car performs on the track, doesn't the 996 beat the 993 in every category? Not bad for a compromised performer.I am really surprised this comment came from a guy like you that has great taste in cars.I have respect for all Porsche's just not their owners.
I have never once said that the 996 is not fast on the track than a 993... Do you think Porsche would make new car that was slower than the previous one.... the problem: The car is a comprimize.... I love the GT3... That is the car that is made for track work... In the early day's every car Porsche made was designed for track work.. Why did they stray off course... Proffit. And a disrespect for the Porsche customer... They figured that 90% fo the Porsche cars on the road were grocery getters... Look at the outcome.. they are the most profitable car company on the planet... At your expence.
Like I have siad in the past. I think you 996 guy's have huge passion for your cars. But don't put your heads in the sand about the issues.... they are not on par with the last 40 years of Porsche engineering... I feel sorry for you. I am glad my buddies talked me out of a new 996 many years ago... 996 owners are the ones paying the price. The depreciation on these cars will never stop....If I were you I would trade my 996 in tommorow and get a GT3. What a car and what a value.
Now I will stop...
I respect you thoughs....even if they are wrong
We all know the 996 has issues, every generation does, take the 993 for example isn't there a very expensive repair on the valve's and oh the dreaded clogged ports.I cant see how Porsche compromised, if they did the 993 would have been faster and out handled it.Again you have good taste in cars, but your missing out on one of the best Porsche has made. Seat time in the car will make you rethink.Thanks for the advise on trading my car in , but I feel I have the best 911 going. You should thank all the 996 owners, if it weren't for us Porsche would have closed the doors and where would you ever find those o so rare parts..........well maybe VW stocks them, i mean the 993 does share parts with 40 year old Bugs, but I forgot they are not on par with the last 40 years of Porsche engineering
Now I'm done
Don't you have a 996 Turbo? Your sig says you sold the 996 C2??? Not sure what your point is.....I love the 996 Turbo. An amazing car, What a great winter driver... I have my eye out for the right 996 Turbo. ( white ) It is a great value.... It has very little in common with a 996.... It has more in common with the 993/ VW that you speak so highly about??? I belive they share the block and the gear box ( at least very close) ??? Your Turbo is the pinacle of the last 40 years of Porsche engineering???...Looks like you better go to the 996 Turbo site and ask some questions???Wny you busting my chops?? Correct me if I am wrong???
I do have a 996 Turbo, and Im not bustin your chops.I am having a little fun with ya.people who know me Know I love the 993, I just love the 996 better.
My prediction, you'll chime back in on the 996 again in this thread or another and the tune will be the same.
As far as this just being about the mechanics of these cars, that doesn't really square with some of your past rhetoric. You do realize of course that a 996 with an aerokit ("the ugliest cars Porsche every built" in your words) look just like the GT3? It also may occur to you that a 997 is in many ways just a 996 Mk III mechanically.
Make no mistake, I have no problem with your "opinions". Just don't try to pass these "opinions" off as your first thoughts on the subject. Clearly you don't like these cars and have a big axe to grind.
Geesh can you guys read? You people keep saying that if someone has a decent wealth or cash flow that they should not worry about a catastrophic failure. Do you not understand the notion of principle? Waking up one day to a $15K repair bill on a $30K car plain sucks, rich or poor.
I will probably look for one with a new motor, they seem to be abundant.
I meant I will stop picking on the 996 engine problems, not stop posting...My tune will never change.... It is the ugliest Porsche every made. it is still a good looking car... Big difference... I will own a 996 GT3 a Turbo and a GT2 some day... you can count on that....Why don't you step up and trade both of your cars in for a GT3... Then we could be track buddies. and you would not have to quote me in every post....
This good debate is helping me cope with no TV in Mexico. I will thank you for that.
I cant speak for everyone else, but what i am saying is simple. I don't care what kind of money you have or do not have. Do you not understand that that if your buying a used car it may or may not have a catastrophic failure, Porsche or any other manufacturer? I suggest when and if you buy a used Porsche you get a CPO car and have 2 or 3 dealers do a PPI. These cars are meant to be owned by a enthusiast and to be enjoyed, if it breaks you fix it, its really that simple.Something tells me you want a P-car to say your have a Porsche, but I am 100 % sure you do not understand the real meaning of the " Porsche owning experience.
Really I am so done with this thread, you and others just don't get it and will never get it.
Actually I looked for three months for a car with a new motor - trying to follow my own advice which I gave to Nat. I found exactly two. One was across the continent and was sold before I could pull the trigger, the other one blew up it's original engine because it was badly badly abused. Other than those two, I could *not* find a car with a new motor for sale. I was surprised actually.
Go the classifieds now...I don't think there's any there..
Uummm...can you clarify what you mean here. If there are indeed 185,000 996s on the road, and let's say there have been 1850 failures (probably way more in actuality, but let's be conservative) then that's 1%. Not a big number for sure - I would (and currently am) playing those odds. But it's far from infinitesimal. Infinitesimal wouldn't even describe a single failure...that would be 0.0005%. Definitely a small number, but still not infinitesimal.
Sorry to argue semantics here, but I've been told a million times not to exaggerate.
Do you not understand my point and that of Nat and most anyone else thinking about a 996 - that yes any car can have a major failure, the 996 is much more likely to, mathematically speaking.
Of course I will have a PPI. Problem is the typical failure of the M96 which requires total replacement is not caught by PPI, at least from what I have read here over the years.
Well since I was raised from childhood in 356s and 911s, owned my first air cooled p-car 20 years ago, owned 3 914s and a 911 through college, then owned and autocrossed 2 944s, and have had the pleasure of serious driver-seat time in both a real 74 RS as well as a 993 race car, you are incorrect.
You are correct, I do post on other Forums. But, unlike you, I don't go to those forums and bash the 997, 997 GT3, or the 997 Turbo. I also don't attack or insult the guys on those forums.
One forum I don't go to is the 993 Forum, and I won't go there because a few of the 993'ers that have come here to the 996 Forum to stir up the 993 vs. 996 pot convinced me I don't even want to go there.
Like I said, you can bash the 996 all you want, I don't really care what you think. From the listing in your sig, I noticed you apparently have never owned a 996. Because of that I don't think you can be subjective about the car. You don't like a car because of it's headlights? Uhmm... OK, great point!
If I told you I don't like the 993 because it is nothing more than a hot air popcorn machine on wheels, would it irritate you? Probably, but in truth, that is not how I see the 993. I used that example to show how ridiculously shallow your headlight comment is. I am not going to get into a "mine is better than yours" arguement, because I don't think that either of us know enough about the other's car to make it a good debate. At least I am willing to admit I know almost nothing about 993's, which gives me absolutely no basis to bash them.
I stand by what I said earlier, you can bash the cars all you want, I don't care. However, if you want to continue to attack the owners of the cars, you are not welcome here. Just so you know, this isn't a "993 owner vs. a 996 owner" thing. I would (and have done so in the past) say the same thing to to a 996 owner if he attacked someone else.
Well since I was raised from childhood in 356s and S,
owned my first air cooled p-car 20 years ago,
owned 3 S and a 911 through college, then owned and auto crossed 2 944s, and have had the pleasure of serious driver-seat time in both a real 74 RS as well as a 993 race car, you are incorrect.[/QUOTE]
OK this has been fun really, but we should agree to disagree.Again your thoughts are your own and thats fine with me.You know what really confuses me, is that fact you have a great History with Porsche, and you still recycling garbage you hear on the 993 forum. Have you spent any time in a 996?......Thats what i thought, your telling us , the owners and drivers of 996 how bad they are, and yet you haven't spent any time in one. A drive around the block does not count.
Why would you want to buy "ugliest Porsche every made?" BTW - for your information the 996 GT3, 996 Turbo and 996 GT2 all have the fried egg headlights, which is something you can't stand about the 996. They are also variants of the 996 and in your words "The depreciation on these cars will never stop."
Your story keeps changing and you end up contradicting yourself. Curious, most curious!
Figure of speech meant to put the odds in some kind of context. Here's what I mean: Out of a population of 185,000 owners, 1-3 will be killed by an asteroid. 37 will be struck by lightning. 665 will get testicular cancer. 894 will be murdered. (all US statistics, credible sources). These are all things most of us consider extremely unlikely and don't even think about in the run of a day. Using your hypothetical 1%, my risk of engine failure is a bit better than double my risk of being offed by a bad guy or deranged spouse. So my point in using that bit of rhetoric was to say, again, that while the odds may be high in comparison to mass produced automobiles, they are not that high in the constellation of bad things that can happen... and therefore not worth worrying about.
And the nice thing about this is that if you DO find the risk unbearable, you have a choice in whether you accept it or not. It's voluntary. Unlike being hit by an asteroid. Which brings me back to the conclusion that there are only two 996 alternatives that make any sense: drive it and enjoy it, or sell it and STFU. Anything else is sad, futile and/or being a jerk.
I think the 996 is the best looking porsche ever. I just wanted to bump this thread so you could respond once again and prove what a moron you are...one more time.
I'm going to go with "They had to find SOME way to make the new generation look different or no one would bother buying one." Personally, I couldn't care less what shape the headlights are, provided they don't look out of proportion with the vehicle. They don't.
I guess it just goes to show that it doesn't matter how much you spend on a car, the arguments are the same...the Miata forums still talk about the shape of the headlights on the new cars versus the old ones, too.
Yes that would be true if it was a 993 and not a 996
(I am a proud 996 owner but wanted to see if I could stir the pot once more since this thread has gotten out of control and no longer has anything to do with the original subject
)
No, I have only driven them a few times. I have not owned one nor do I have friends or family with them. No doubt they are good, great, etc etc. I don't need to spend another second in one to know that I like them and want one. I really do want one, just nervous about the motor. I never made any statement blanket or otherwise that 996s are "bad." I have only commented about the motor failures. Yes I do realize that while a fair number of 996 motors fail, most other parts of the car are way solid. It's rare to hear of an air cooled 911 motor up and failing in some catastrophic way, but those cars require lots of maint. overall, which may be similar a 996 motor failure, cost-wise over the years.
WOW, that is even worse than your car..... uhmm, wait.... that didn't come out right!
WOW, that car makes your car look good.... oh crap.... that's not working either!
OK, what color is that car, Porsche P*ssy Pink?
hwk72 - I hope you know I am only kidding around with you and know that those comments were totally in jest!
I return after a few days to discover Joey resurrected and yet another passionate but less than helpful blown engine thread.
Great to see things never change
Tim, you hit me even worse than JJB236 in his car payment thread.
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...yments+million
From now on I'll post pics of my car in black and white to convert her into Seal Gray but just because here are some real philistines around.
Really, Bill has a Wimbledon Green 996 (of course his is older than mine and financed)? You made my day man!
Tim, I know what the issue is with your car! You need to paint it green to get it sold (like every Porsche was that Butzi collected)!
Harold - I am not going to make fun of the color of your car any more! It's just not right to do that!
Besides, I just noticed on Chad's Mod thread that you are 6'6" tall!
But I'm certain that had nothing to do with my change of heart!
I going to say it and I am sure I will get beat all up but here it goes. I would bet that most of the blown engines was due to over revving on a down shift. In fact I would also bet that most people would not admit to it. It will smoke a engine sooner or later if it is done. These motors are extremely durable and you can rev and ring the **** out of them all day long as long as you do not do it on a downshift.
Mike
Let the beating begin!
Mike...that is not accurate. I lost my engine while backing my car out of the garage on a sunny day and I assure you that I have never over-revved the engine. The 996 engines 1999-2003 have weak parts that were later modified...ask any Porsche mechanic. The Intermed. Shaft Bolt for example was the culprit for some time, however, I read about some engine castings that allowed the coolant to enter the cylinders and do bad things to the engine. I have also read about the wet/semi-dry sump config. of the early engines that is not too well-designed that starves the beast and causes it to blow! No one really knows.
I love my car, I love Porsche, I am a bit upset about the tragedy associated with losing my engine. I have taught myself to accept it and move on. The 996 is one of the most beautiful porsches ever.
Your attitude towards this unfortunate event is refreshing.
This is how one should handle an UNLIKELY, but possible tragedy of a major mechanical malfunction, regardless of car or root cause.
From this though, I will take the following preventative action.
I will put the P-Car in neutral and have my wife back me out of the garage as part of my new and improved PM program.
I am sorry you had to go through the tragedy of losing an engine and hope you have come out of it good.
I also think that it is not just a 1999-03 occurrence...but don't want to get into this all over again.
I mostly felt the need to comment on how well you took it and did not judge and cut down all 996's and or Porsche as being unreliable junk, as many have from being bitter.
Best of luck
My .02 cents... The comment "ask your mechanic"... if I was a mechanic, which engine would I want to fix that is good for my business. An engine rebuild or an engine swap? Which one would bring in the most $$$ for me (the mechanic)...
