Track Pads? Specific Questions

Hey folks...need some input. It has been quite a while since I was on a track with a Porsche. I have been running Performance Friction 01's for some time on my old M3 and LOVED them. I found them for my C2 but would like some input... I intend to run street tires at the next event. (can't find what I want for track wheels/tires) Likely Michelin PS2's. The PO of the car had some S02's on her, but a turbo sizing setup. 225/40 front and 295/30 rear. My intention is to go back to the proper GT3 tire size, if possible. So with that said - brake pads. Any suggestions? I did a search, but only came up with some aggressive setups. May be too much for the street tires. C.

Chad, I plan on changing out my pads after each event.. I wanted more aggressive for the D.E. and did not want my D.D. time dictating, what I could run. I will keep stock on the street. my .02 Jerry

Thanks for the reply, Jerry...but that really doesn't help me. Read more carefully please. I too am swapping pads. Need suggestions on which pads for a couple events running street tires. C.

Never had an issue with the stock pads while I was on street tires. I guess this could depend quite a bit on the track. Fresh Motul 600 and stock pads while I learned the car on the 225/285 Pirelli's. Coming from my M3 background and knowing how inadequate the stock pads were on that car and how quickly I could heat up track pads in that car even on street tires, I was pleasantly suprised at how versitile the stock 996 pads are. Andy

I run Pagid orange with P Zero tires (225/285). I don't think that high performance pads are too aggressive in combination with street tires. The brakes don't really get stronger, they just work better under hard braking that causes higher temperatures. You don't change the surface size of the rotors or the pads with a different compound.

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Sort of... There are many grades of performance track brake pads. Some are VERY aggressive. The grip levels of street tires are much less than full DOT track tires or Hoosier-daddy's. Thus, the chance for the ABS kicking in is greater. Not what I want. I am looking for an in the middle pad. Sounds like the Pagid Oranges might do the trick. C.

Although it's been years, I've run the Pagid Orange on my non-ABS 951 with street tires. No issues with unintended lockup; you just don't need to push the pedal as hard once things get heated up. However, I don't like the way the Pagids seem to bake crap out onto the rotors and cause a warped rotor feel until you get them hot and clean the rotors off. Hawk Blue or Black seem to be a better pad in that regard.

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That's actually an interesting aspect Chad! I had the Pagid orange pads on the car for the last 2 events (stock pads before that). The first event I used them, they were great; no issue at all. Then I changed my tires from BS Potenza to P Zero, changed wheels from solid turbo twists to much lighter 5-spokes and added GT3 sway bars to the car (H&R lowering springs on stock shocks). On the 2nd event with the new pads I realized that the front end of the car was really nervous, especially during hard braking with ABS kicking in quite frequently. I thought it's the stock shocks that can't adjust quick enought due to the reduced body roll with the GT3 sway bars and maybe due to the reduced unsprung weight with the lighter wheels. But it could also be that the brake pads or a combination of all aspects caused the issue. I further know that my tires were not broken in too much before the event (approx. 500 street miles) and it took 2-3 sessions to see improved grip. I'm in the process of upgarding my suspension so next spring I might know more.

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Thanks Doug. I might try out the PFC's on the Carrera. They were incredible on the E46 M3. No nervous twitchyness or anything. At one point braking from the 150 marker at 10A on Road Atlanta was like the hand of god. Curious about the 996... C.

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My bet it was the new, cold tires. Lockup will happen easier until the set come to temp... C.

Chad My bad. just got one cup in me I never would of thought that about the ABS??? We will see I will be running PFC 97 at the next D.E. this month, Last D.E. I had the ABS hit one time (stock pads) , Car in front slowed down (too much for a turn) and I had to stop early, ABS popped on and off. other than that smooth Jerry

Personally, I wouldn't be running PFC01's with PS2's or any street tire. I run them on the GT3 but with sticky tires. Unless you are a pro at brake modulation then move down and match the friction characteristic and torque of the pad with your rubber and more importantly the working temp of the pad. Personally, I think you would be fine with something like a RS19. The Pagid Orange is crap and not a good pad for what you want.....too harsh for the street and not good enough for the track.

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Exactly the info I was looking for. Thanks Dell. I figured the 01's would be a bit aggressive. I love the PFC's. I'll check out the RS19's. Thanks. BTW- are you going to Roebling in Jan? C.

Very welcome. I actually ran the RS19 with PS2's on both my CAB and my GT3. Great combo. Still a touch aggressive but with proper brake modulation it is a great setup. The PS2 is by far (IMHO) the best street tire for the track. No go on RR in Jan. My first event is VIR in Feb.

Chad, I had been using Pagid Orange's as my street/track pad (on the 986). They work fairly well in that role (good cold friction for street, not too rotor aggressive) with one exception. I have had some pad transfer problems. I recently switched to Yellows, but I have not taken them to the track yet

Chad, I would strongly recommend you just run better fluid and stock pads. The reason for this is you are running street rubber. It doesn't matter if you go to a wider tire as your contact patch surface area won't actually increase unless you lower your tire pressures. Going to a wider tire changes the contact to make it wider and shorter. This helps a little in the corners, but it actually hurts you under braking. It is very hard to get the benefits out of a full race pad like a PF01 if you don't have the grip to use them. PS2s are a long way from a rear race tire like MPSCs, Corsas or R888s. Save your money and wait until you start running race rubber to upgrade your pads. Also remember that your previous M3 has single piston floating calipers with solid rotors on all 4 corners. This is not exactly the best setup for hot lapping. The 996 has far better brakes: 4 piston fixed monoblock calipers with cross-drilled rotors on all 4 corners. These cars don't get get brake fade early like you would in a C5 Corvette or an M3.

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I really wish you guys would read my post. Thank you for the input. You are assuming my track prepped M3 had stock brakes. It did not. It had a full set of Stoptechs. FWIW - while stock BMW E36/E46 M3 brakes are indeed floating calipers, they are NOT solid rotors. With about 7 years of track driving under my belt...while I can always learn more, I have a fair bit of knowledge on the subject. Back to the 996. I usually run in Group 4 (black). I simply want a more aggressive set of track pads to get me through a couple weekends while I test and tune the car's handling setup. Better fluid is a no-brainer, and if I stay with the stock pads, I would likely burn through them in 3 sessions. Thanks...C.

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+1 that's exactly the point! Braking with stock pads is not bad but you burn them through in no time on the track. My last set of stock pads did last for <6 hours driving on the track.

You'll get more than 3 sessions out of a stock (textar, I presume) set of pads. Since you are on street tires (for now), stay with the factory pads, new ones. I think you'll be impressed with them. If you are dead-set on a more track oriented pad, go with the PFC 97 or 01 pad.

Chris, with all due respect, that is poor advice. To rec'd the street pad and at the same time a pad that will NOT come close to working properly (PFC01) with PS2's is not good. The stock pads are NOT made to be an endurance pad for tracking. The PFC01 needs more heat than he can probably get in them. The Pagid RS19 is a good endurance pad that works well with PS2's. I know for a fact as I have run ALL the pads (stock, PFC's, Pagids) with various tire combos from S02's and PS2's to NT01's, R6's and Slicks and have done that in both a CAB and the GT3.

Sorry Chad, I used the wrong word. When I mentioned the M3 brakes are "solid", that is they are just "vented". No cross-drilling or slotting. Since you went to Stoptechs on yours, I know you are more than familiar with the issue. Dell is right on some of his remarks. The stock pads are not endurance pads. Neither are PS2s track tires. A typical race tire is 2 seconds faster per minute on a track than the best street tire. Keep in mind that unless you are driving on an extremely grippy surface, it is hard to get over the stock pads capabilities on street tires. I have run 4 different pads on streets tires (PSs, S03s and RE050As) and race tires (MPSCs, Corsas and R888s): stock, Porsche Sport (same as a Pagid Black Sport), Pagid Orange and now PF01s. Race pads never work well with street tires. As Dell mentioned, they are extremely hard to keep enough heat in. What I notice is with the Oranges and PF01s is that I hit the ABS a lot under braking due to the lack of grip on street tires. I am sure you noticed from running PF01s on the M3, these pads are noisy and laggy cold then quiet and gripper when heated up. On street tires I can't keep them up to temp. After a long straight, they start squeeling on the next corner. I can never achieve the benefits from a full race pad on street tires. You can't get enough friction to heat them up enough because the friction between the tires and the surface is not enough to generate the high brake friction. I don't notice a significant difference between Sport or street pads on street tires. Both pads seem to do well and I don't get major fade with either on street tires. I also don't experience anywhere near the wear level other are stating from track use. I just have to start braking significantly earlier when running street tires. With MPSCs and Corsas race tires, Sport pads are a minimum. I will fade my brakes with street pads within 5-6 laps into the first session on MPSCs or Corsas. If the tires grip, stock pads will never keep up. The R888s bite a lot harder in the braking zones (they were specifically designed this way) than the MPSCs or Corsas. I litterly burn Sport pads up running R888s. I can fade them and boil RFB600 fluid in half a session. The last set I had I went half the pad surface in 6 sessions and melted the backing plates off the rears. Again switching back to street tires, no issues at all. With Sport pads I get a fraction the wear on street tires as I do on race tires. With the R888s I now run PF01s with RBF660, which to date is a good combination working consistantly. You need your brakes to match the capabilities of the rest of the car and tires are a significant part of that capability. I will hold to my prevous comment. Run street pads until you invest in race tires.

i ran PFC01s on my stoptechs on the street and track. very easy to modulate on the street with good cold bite and actually did not squeal. good pad but i went back to pagid RS19 (yellow) i feel they have better bite than the pfcs and actually think that the pfc 01s were quite mellow and not as aggressive as the pagids. at any rate i am back on the rs19s but my next set will be rs29. warning, yellows squeal like a pig on the street. i echo what ray said about the oranges. they tend to leave pad deposits on the rotor giving you a juddering effect.

Carlos, seat of the pants and actual friction levels/operating temp are tywo different ballgames. The RS19/29 pads have a much lower friction level than the PFC01and more importantly a LOWER operating range. The 19 isn't even in the same ballpark as the PFC01. If you get heat in the 01's you will know what instantly that there is a HUGE difference between the Pagid and the PFC. FYI....the 19/29 operating range (optimal) is 400-700F while the PFC01's is 860-1000F! I can brake DEEPER and HARDER with the 01's than the Pagid 19's could even dream of. If you want a pad similar to the PFC01 in terms of friction and operating temp you need to look into the RS14 (black) or 15 (grey).

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FYI, if you look at the friction graph, the optimum range for the rs19s is between 750~1100F (the degrees F and degrees C are transposed.... just do a celsius to fahrenheit conversion and you'll see.) since the chart was slightly off, i will let that one slide . the yellows actually have a wider optimal operating range than the PFC01 range you have stated. this PAGE describes the rs19 better. "Constant temperatures up to 600�C (1,100�F) are possible" i just don't get the same performance you get from the pfc01. trust me i get heat in them especially in 100+ degree weather. they didn't fade but the bite just isn't as good as the rs19s. btw, i can't seem to find any data on PFC's crappy site... no test data. anyhow usable temp range does not equate to a higher coefficient of friction and i "feel" the yellows have a higher cF. with no side to side test data we can only go by "feel". oh BTW, if you go with the greys then you can go as high as 1300!!!!

Damn metric system! I was trying the whole slide of hand thing Seriously though......the RS19 is BELOW the friction level of the 14 and 15 as well as the 01's. I did a fair bit of research on this (that's the professor in me) before I made my choice to go with the 01's. Talking to a VERY expereinced engineer with countless sanctioning bodies and top teams (Grand Am, IMSA, NASCRAP, etc, etc, etc) I was able to make an informed decision. Yes with the RS19 you can "get" to 1000F and be ok but the optimal range well below that. ~750 is where it peaks for optimal performance. You already know about the 14/15 and PFC01. So while my metric to standard trick didn't do very well, the story remains unchanged. As far as friction and temp, the 19's are at the bottom of the 14/15/01 choices. My question would be WHY you don't "get" the same performance from the PFC01's that I (and others) get. And yes, I agree, the PFC website blows.

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Actually, looking at the graph, friction peaks at 750 and plateaus until around 1000 where friction drops off so it has a wider range of optimum friction. Unless you can insert the friction characteristics of the 01s into the same friction graph, I remain unconvinced that the pfcs have a higher cF. This is based on own observations and unless I see some data my observations outweigh anything else. I am still not sure where you came up with the conclusion that the 19s have inferior friction characteristics without any hard data... Is this just by "feel"? Looking at the PFC lineup, the 01s are third in the cF and torque category. PFC has the 03 and 05 which are higher on the rung. So the rs19 and the pfc01s are third on the rung so they've got to be the same right?

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Nice logic. I commented in your other thread. Like I said, I am glad you like the RS19 as braking is all about confidence at this point and if you FEEL more confident that the RS19 does better for you than the PFC01, then great. I'm done with this one. **unsubscribe**

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i guess you missed the winky. acutualy i was following your logic when you said the yellows are third in the pagid lineup.. but wait the 01s are also third in the lineup. man you gotta lighten up.

chad, i apologize for being a part of this going off into another dell vs. world pissing match. let me make this simple. IMHO and in my the PFC01s are better for the street and for street tires. they are much quieter than pagids and i find it's bite and torque characteristics are less aggressive than the pagids making them easier to modulate and you won't be hard on the ABS all the time. i drove on the street for quite a while on the PFC01s on the street and tracked them FWIW. i may try them again, maybe i got a bad batch. next time i will do side by side qualitative testing on track.

I have many track miles on PFC 01's. And I have limited time spent on Pagids. I will not be using 01's. The setup on the car is not there yet. After I get my track wheels/tires, then we'll talk. Thanks for all the input folks... Chad

Chad, Let us know what you ended up doing and how it worked....I am in the same boat, and am curious to hear your observations.

Sounds like you are looking for a pad which performs in a relatively lower operating temperature due to the street tires. I suggest checking out the cobalt friction line of pads. http://www.cobaltfriction.com/compounds/ Personally I run the XR3 in front and XR2 in the back with Toyo rcomps, and it was a great setup. Great initial bite when cold (as in when I leave for the track at 4am when outside temperature is 37F the brakes are still decent), very predictible braking characteristics, and no fade at all after running continously for 1.5 hrs at buttonwillow in the summer. There is also relatively little brake dust because of higher ceramic content. I ran PFC01 or 97 (forgot which one) before and switched to the cobalt friction line about 3 years ago, and haven't looked back since. You can just call up their toll free number on the website and ask to speak with a technical person. Tell them what you want to acheive and they can probably recommend a compound for you.

I've been happy with Ferodo DS2500 as a compromise street/track pad. Check out this info at raceshopper.com: http://www.raceshopper.com/ferodo_compounds.shtml

I run Pagid Yellow with Brembo GT brakes and drilled rotrs (will go to slotted rotors next) and Michelin Sport Cup. The yellows work great and I know others in my area have had good success. I think they are Yellow 29

Well, I can only speak from experience. I burned up my stock pads and cracked my front rotors after 2 DE days on street (PS2) tires two years ago. I then went to Pagid 19 front, and Pagid 14 rear because several of the 996 GT3 guys at the time said the modulation balanced the car. After 17 DE days (the GT3 is now a track only car) the front pads are almost ready to be replaced, the rears still have plenty of life left, and both my front & rear rotors are well within tolerance. I also added the cup brake ducts (huge improvement with airflow, but hang almost 1.5 inches lower to the ground than stock) and run Castol SRF brake fluid. Even in desert heat, it has yet to boil. I love this set up. I DE 100% of the time at MMP, a very fast track with 23 turns and a long (.67 mile) straight. It is especailly fast because the track is wide and has little elevation change. I have run 12 of the last 17 DE days on Sport Cups (R Comps). Does that help? Good luck! -B