996 C2 a competitive track car?

I wanted to ask "those who know" for some help, as I feel I'm on the brink of another auto-induced episode...a chronic condition of mine. I currently drive an '08 M3 coupe, IMHO it is the best street/track car I've ever owned. It handles street duty better than any car I've ever owned and is absolutely brilliant on track. The problem?...I'm fickle with my cars. I usually can't stick with a car for more than a couple of years without looking at other options. Loyal to my wife...cheatin' bastid to my cars. My plan is to give the M3 to my wife in the spring when her X3 comes off lease and that will open me up to another opportunity. I've considered leasing a cheap daily and then going 'pure fun/track car' = C5Z06 (owned one before and loved it...another victim of my condition... ) but the other option would be moving to a P-car. I've narrowed it down to either a 996TT or a 996C2....the GT3 would be my perfect choice but it lacks rear seats for the 'pick-up/drop-off of the kids' and, more importantly, they are still out of my price range. So...and I appreciate your patience...is the 996c2 (02-04) able to handle track-duty well and be competitive with the advanced/instructor groups? I'm used to higher hp cars but hope the C2 can scratch the track-itch. I appreciate your advice, TomK

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Try a corvette' first...very high HP, ok milage, cheap, etc...

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Competitive? Are you trying to win your DE? Driving a slower car as fast as it can go is way more rewarding than driving a high HP car poorly but still passing people on the long straights. Put another way, going fast doesn't mean you are driving well. Anyone can mash a gas pedal. As for the car itself, any model 996 C2 is fast on the track out of the box. But you need a number of upgrades to really get the most out of the car. And if you need the back seat, that means you won't have a rollbar or fixed back seats with harnesses (and thus no HANS device). IMO, you should never try to be "competitive" without safety gear. -td

I appreciate your replies, gentlemen. I've owned a C5Z06 before, so no surprise that car is in direct competition for my open slot. Win my DE?...why, yes...isn't that what it's about????....(TIC) I am a NASA/PDA instructor, so you are preaching to the choir, my new friend. I had a Lotus Elise prior to the M3...phenomenal car in the turns/braking...but couldn't get out of it's way on the straights. Ever run Pocono F-USA course?...there's 1min of full-throttle on that track in that Lotus, and getting gang-raped by the Vettes, Vipers, Turbos, and Evo/STIs was no fun. So put another way, driving well doesn't mean you are going fast...and that's no fun to some. If only driving well was the goal, you'd not have that 6GT3...but a Miata. Back to the original question... 996C2 competitive with the "fast" HPDE race-car drivers? Thanks, TomK

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As an instructor apparently having driven fast raceways, it would seem like you would already know whether a a 996 C2 is as fast as a Z06, Viper, Turbo, Lotus, etc. When you were instructing in a Z06, Vetter, or Turbo would have passed all the 996 C2s out there. When instructing in a 996 C2 you would have seen them all fly by. I think you answered your question. The answer is "No." Then get a fast car - not a 996. In a 996 you will still get eaten by the Vettes, Vipers, Turbos, STIs etc. HP is king. Simple math really. What? I have a GT3 because I WANT a GT3. I thank my lucky stars (and my wife!) that I am blessed enough to have the GT3. And it is completely incorrect to lump me in the same boat as you. You would never see me asking if I should get a faster car so I didn't get passed at DEs. I check my ego at the gate. Those that know me can attest that I really don't get bent out of shape getting passed by faster cars. In fact, I've taken both my sedans to the track - and I wasn't angry when Miatas passed me. Some of the drivers are quite good actually. -td

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Question still stands... anyone else? Thanks, TomK

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simple answer yes. there are many nay sayers, but i have seen several 996spec racers post times right on par with GT3's. and these are 3.4L 996, with cheap pss10 shox and wt reduction. so yes, very competitive.

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That's what I want to hear, Mooty, thanks so much. Keep in mind, I'm hoping that the consensus is "yes". I've no problem semi-gutting a car for weight or having a suspension that is considered by most 'non-trackers' as brutal. If I'm able to find a good Spec996ish car that I can have fun with and then re-install the rear-seats and/or pull a rollbar/cage out when the weekend is over, then I'm all for it. Probably, the C2 would become a dedicated car and I'd lease a cheap daily...so back-seats would stay out. But it's nice to have options and if I'm going to go for a pure two-seater, then there are more options and I'd a tough time resisting another C5Z. Again, thank you. -TomK

Let me 2nd Mooty on this. The answer is YES. Emphatically yes. The '02-'04 996 C2 coupe makes a great trackday companion. When driven well and with a couple mild suspension tweaks, it will easily run in the top/instructor groups at most DE or Time Trial events. More importantly, it's more fun on the track than other cars I've owned (Cayman S, 944S2). It's laugh-out-loud fun. The other advantage of any P-car is access to very high-quality events put on by PCA, POC and such organizations which make the multi-marque trackday clubs look dangerously chaotic by comparison (at least that's been my experience in N. Cali). I am a nationally-certified PCA instructor and have been doing this stuff for 11 years. Like you, I need the back-seats for occasional kid transport duty. I picked up an '03 C2 6sp coupe with factory aerokit and no PSM. I installed the factory X74 suspension kit, GT3 front control arms, X51 oil pan, bought a set of CCW wheels for the track, yanked out the stereo, dialed in some camber and now I have an excellent trackday weapon that is also a fine street car. My laptimes are competitive with many "faster" cars... but as you know, once you've got some significant experience that's going to be true no matter what you drive. No, the real measure of success is HOW MUCH FUN YOU'RE HAVING. If you're still in any doubt, crank up your speakers and get a taste of how much fun I am having:

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Tom, you have the absolutely wrong attitude to be an instructor. Fast is not defined by the car but by the skill of maximizing and controlling the car they have and the ability to transfer that knowledge to a student. Try racing and you'll understand. Is the 996 able to do well on track REGARDLESS of what you are trying to compare it to? Absolutely, and then some. However, it sounds like you want it to be a street car as well since you want to pick up your kids, etc. That is going to make it a bit tougher since you want to go fast but it appears you will have ZERO safety in the car. You need to decide if you want a track car or a dual purpose car. You need to decide if you have to be up front so people can perceive you as fast or if you want the proper car for you and then be perceived as fast because you are skilled in THAT car. If you want to go FAST because your ego can't take not running with the "fast" guys and being up front then you really need to make sure and NOT compromise and just get the fastest car out there so you can run up front and make sure there is plenty of safety in the car since those speeds are creating smaller and smaller margins of error.

I agree with LVDell. I would rather be the last guy to finish a race but the only guy driving his car to it's limits. There will always be guys who care about nothing but being the first to finish a race, but doing so because you have a better car than anyone else on the track does not mean you're the best driver.

Pull a rollcage out after the weekend? I'm getting too old I guess. If you press me, then yes, I guess you can even if it's welded in. At any rate, I track a stock 996 and it is indeed a great car. A 2:02 if you don't know at Thunderhill is crazy fast. But this competitive thing is kinda weird. After 5 minutes into the session, you get passed, you do some passing. In the instructor group, there are a lot of dedicated track cars and drivers. Don't you find that true? It's expected you'd be passed. But I don't think anyone thinks twice about whose fast and slow. Just that you're courteous. Finally, the 996 is the track bargain of the century. Why buy a beater?

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Now that was great. Thanks so much and I appreciate your advice. Great post, thanks so much!!! Be good, TomK

Tom, no there was no insult meant there and I hope you can see that my post is calling it like I see more than anything else. And yes, I would look forward to meeting up. I enjoy meeting anybody that shares the passion I do for the track. Just have no idea where you are located??? However, it doesn't matter if I know you or your disciplines, etc, your attitude was way off base and there is no getting around that. Not sure what "unaccurate" means means but the point is (and clearly seen by everybody) that you are preoccupied with speed as a measure of being up front and the recognition that comes with that. There is no place for that in DE and it seems to have become a growing trend lately in the DE crowd. What I meant by (and should have stated as such) ZERO safety means you can't have a rollbar/cage in a car to run a proper seat, harness system and HANS and still have the ability to tote your kids around. Just trying to go on what I am hearing. So, while we are still listening, please explain better what you are trying to accomplish in your DE events b/c from the outset it has sounded like you can't stand not being up front and you want to know what it will take to be there. And trust me, nobody is getting their panties in a wad. Try seeing what would happen if you posted this over in the racing/DE forum. Now that would have been a roast.

If you are willing to gut the car out and make the necessary mods you can rest assured you will have a really competent car; however, unless you are thinking of club racing, why not buy a GT3? If you take the time to search you will see that even the GT3 prices are down.

There is wisdom in them words, folks. Disappointed? If you were driving the Lotus to its limit, why would you be disappointed that cars with twice the HP were passing you? You should search here and renntech on this point. Getting a rollbar in and out isn't always easy (or cheap). New windshields can be quite expensive. YOu might consider the tequipment bar with removable crossbrace if you really need the back seat. If you really plan to have a dedicated track car, you should take that route now, as it will end up being cheaper in the long run. Constantly modding a street car for more speed is not cost effective. -td

At current prices buy two; one for groceries and kids the other just for track.

This one got rather nasty quickly.

Me? I wasn't being nasty and only partially facetious. I was going to do just that but bought a Tacoma instead to pull the track 996 (and 964 when necessary- even though its still street legal). Another 996 for street? Very possible.

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...vette' would do just fine: cheap, fast, easy to get parts for....

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Again, read my first post. I'm not looking for the 'fastest' car so I can be the "DEKing". I asked if the 6C2 handles track-work well (reliability) and if it is competitive (not a pig, dog, snail) in the advanced/instructor groups. A few individuals have done a decent job of reading my first post, stayed on topic, and answered it - I very much appreciate your help. Overall, it sounds like the 6C2 can be a very good fun/track car with strong potential in the right hands. Again, I appreciate all your replies. -TomK

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This is true. But running a 996C2 on slicks trying to get the same lap times as a stock GT3 can result in premature engine failure. There is a rumor that sustained high G loads will grenade a 996. Just what I've heard. I have been held up as well, but NEVER in the instructor group. And almost never in the advanced group. Any instructor pulling those shenanigans won't be instructing for long. And in the advanced group, you're likely to get black flagged for a whole session doing stuff like that. Dell DE'd his daily driver 996, then GT3, for many years - and now he's working his race car. I DE'd my daily driver 996, and now my GT3, for many years - no race car in my future though. I think we will both attest that (despite what others have said), there is NO daily driving 996C2 that is anywhere near as fast as a GT3, Turbo, Z06, Viper, etc. (all things being equal, like driver ability and tires). With barely over 300 HP, you will get still get pulled, maybe not as pronounced as the Elise, but the story ends the same. But, to give you an idea of the potential of a properly track prepped 996, here is a video of me chasing my buddy in his chipped 996 TT - pushing around 500 HP to the wheels. I was driving a 3.4L 996, PSS9, and a few other track goodies. No need to watch the whole thing, the first 3 minutes or so should do the trick. -td

ace...I give your responses at this point the big whatever. I've tried (as have others) but you are just way too defensive and don't want to hear from those of us that can READ exactly what you said. Instead of getting pissed like the typical internet troll at posting a thread and looking for feedback that is self serving try LISTENING to what we are saying instead of getting so offended. You've heard my $.02 and I'm done playing your game. Hopefully you get what you are looking to hear.

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ace996; I can appreciate where you're coming from. I've ran some DEs in an e36 M3 street car up in the Northeast, and I wasn't much more than a rolling road block in that car. I say that as somebody who's won multiple time trials -in that M3-, to give you an idea, somebody above said 1.5x was fast at Thunderhill, here's a lap in a 996 C2 I've had (completely stock other than safety/gt3 coil overs and sway bars), sub 1.38; That's in line with what some IP cars and many spec race classes do on that track, and this was my daily driver, complete with bike rack, running on street tires. In fact that session is a stop @Thunderhill during a cross country trip. The point is when the field consists of a dozen Cup cars, a few Ferrari Challenge cars, some Vipers and C6 z06's and what not, it's hard to have fun in a very low horsepower car, and not because you're not pushing your car, but because you're being molested by lap traffic... Viewed from that perspective, I will say that the 996 is not only "fast enough" but has been very durable. Unlike the M3s which really needed a race pad, I'd been running a dual purpose pad on the C2, and the ride is still bearable, has great A/C, stereo, etc. It also hasn't needed constant upkeep of subsystems (control arms, radiators, etc.) that many other cars seem to. himself; I've been held up in many instructor groups, and I've witnessed several instructors display unacceptable behavior -including some veterans, there can be bad apples in every basket... Also, I'm curious about this engine oil issue, I'd been running street tires, but I've seen oil pressure drop in every 996 C2 I've been in. That said, just yesterday I saw a 996 (1999) original owner who's been tracking it for the better part of a decade, NEVER any issues with the car. Dell; I feel that you have an idea what you're talking about, but are often mangled in debates. For one reason or another, you often bring out arguments, and I'm of the opinion that you have some blame to take, you're too abrasive when you disagree with people, using a condescending tone. Carried over from your day job perhaps? This is my observation, hope you take it to be constructive.

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I'm sure the engine blowing up thing is an internet myth and it never happens. Maybe Raby knows for sure... As for bad apples in the basket, it seems that the organizers in your area are more lenient than 'round here. You don't play nice, you don't get to play. [edit: -> bolt, not hill! lol. 1:38 at ThunderHILL would be SMOKING on street tires!] -td

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Tom, I'll assume your motives and your skill level are both good (in spite of your pooly worded post) and answer "yes". There are many on RL who have DE'd and Club Raced 996's with good results. In the right hands a well prepared 996 is capable of turning impressive lap times.

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Great logic but Thunderbolt is not equal to Thunderhill. I believe it is a east coast vs west coast thing.

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Stay on that high-horse of yours, just ignore me from now on and we'll do just fine. That was very helpful, as you've experience with both the 6C2 and GT3. I really appreciate your reply, and the video was awesome - great job!!!! Ahmet, Ray... Thanks for your replies, I very much appreciate them. Thanks, TomK

Ha! My bad...

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1:38 at thunderhill on street tires, i am certain that you will be offered a ride in any F1, or ALMS or any racing team for that matter, heehehe

This thread is interesting to me because I enjoy getting the most out of my trusty old 996 in it's quasi street form and enjoy hearing what others think or have achieved. Ace996, stop reacting to the reactions, stay on track, make people laugh. Just get the 996. There is so much info on the 996 here to help you wade through what is nice vs. what is needed. Not suggesting you don't already know all this and more. Don't hit me w/ the red :-) imHo: 00-01 996. No PSM=rare so bad resale value. Stiffen and lower. Focus on understeer. Oil pan mod if you get R's. Race pads High bolster seats w/harness holes, folding for your kids. Stock seats are not very good. Harness bar (easy takeout) and harness. R-tires ~$5K for ~5 seconds and you've got a sleeper car. Good luck.

Wow, what happened to this thread over the weekend? It went all sour in the middle! I understood the OP's intent to be: Can a 996 work successfully as a dual-purpose car for someone who already has track experience and therefore tends to run in the faster rungroups at DE's? i don't see anything crazy or out of line about that question. I stand by my answer, which is simply "Yes" Let's not get started on safety gear or track etiquette, as those two subjects each deserve & get their own dedicated threads (many times over the years). BTW: You mentioned the Turbo alternative. I've instructed in (and driven) 996 TT's at the track, and although they have great acceleration, I just didn't find them to be as FUN nor as entertaining as a 996C2. Hence my car choice.

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Hi John, If you're not getting a pro seat soon, there's no shred of hope for the rest of us!! 1:38 in a BSR, yeah, that's it...

I think 996 C2 can be very competive car and is perhaps under estimated usually. For an example my -99 is equipped with GT2 brakes, factory aero kit, some suspension mods (front control arms, KW V3 coil overs, sway bars, some monoballs and very track oriented alligement), some weight reduction, gt3 seats and roll bar. On the Nurburgring Nordschleife tourist drives (open for everybody) it`s one of the fastest cars. I spent about two weeks in june and july there and there were only very few faster driver & car combinations (996 & 997 RS`s and GT2`s who are running porsche club races and some very very good drivers with track only M3`s etc.) When we compared my C2 to my friends (very good and fast driver) 996 GT3 the biggest difference was the power. On Nordschleife he was not able to pull away but I was able to catch him a little even he was little bit faster on straights. So with well prepared C2 and very good driver you really can compete with GT3`s in same driver groups. But lets of course remember that with same driver the GT3 is always faster

ace...you really are a piece of work. you stated in your first post that you wanted to be competitive with the advanced groups AND wanted to pick the kids up. From there you got the normal responses that would generate based on those statements. it would be nice for once to have somebody come to this board looking for input and then taking the input AND constructive criticism that comes with it without.....as you say....get your panties in a wad. Again, the C2 is very capable and good on track and there is plenty that can be done with it. But if you want to pick the kids up from school you are compromising big time for what you want out of the car. It would be easier if you would just tell us what you want to hear and we can say that saving everybody a lot of time. Looking forward to your Ron Jaworski style breakdown of the post and all the red highlighting that ensues.

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Thanks, Fellas, I appreciate the replies. Again, it sounds like the C2 can be a very good/reliable track car with a couple of tweaks. Based on all your responses (and video!!!), I'll not shy away from the right one when the opportunity presents itself. Be good, TomK

Tom, you are welcome. Now if you want more specific info feel free to PM me anytime. Hopefully you can see past what you thought you read of mine and what I was really getting at. Obviously you don't know me since this is your first foray into the 996 forum funny farm. I call it like I see and I will be honest with you. Most people sugar coat crap around here for fear of confrontation, not me. Or they will jump in mid thread and take a side thereby inflating their own hidden agenda and allowing them the great feeling of putting somebody down or coming across as holier than though trying to look like peacemaker. Typical of somebody that is too weak to speak up first. I can only go on what I see and it seems that maybe your choice of words was poor in the beginning and maybe you weren't specific enough. I take my responsibility as an instructor, racer, and pedagog of technical help very seriously which is where my initial comments came from regarding your attitude (perceived) about needing to be "competitive" in a DE as well as the need to have a car to shuttle the kids around. Those who know me know exactly where I have been with respect to these cars. I will go to the end of the earth for my close friends and even those I have just met to help out with these cars. I suffer from the track addiction more than most and you can learn a tremendous amount from my experience if you can handle my personality. ps. I'll be waiting for the red highlight breakdown soon.

I have no opinion on any of this but I would like to post a video of my 28.3 at Thunder Alley. It was the third fastest time in my group last Wednesday at our local indoor kart track! OP, a 996 makes a fine track car. Go for it.

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No more red/bold, Dell, that's just for hitting on specific points when in a 'discussion'. I appreciate your invitation for PMs, as I'm sure I'll have many times of need/questions...thanks for that. I don't mind a good fight every now and then...actually 4x a week for me...as long as we shake hands when we're done and I always buy the first beer... Be good, TomK

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yes, when i do 1:38 in BSR and ferrari hires me, i will provide you with annual pit row seats to all F1 events. back to topic, carlos did 1:56 with bypass at TH last weeeknd in his 996 3.4L lwt. granted he's on slicks, but still that's amazing feat.

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hey, what do you know about 996 race cars ?

Since many instructors and advance run group drivers track 996 C2's in DE's, yes, another 996 C2 will fit right in. You're in Porsche 996 forum for crying out loud. Did you think someone might say "nooooo.... bad idea!" ???? Throw us something a little more debatable next time - like "which 911 should I get, a 993, a 996, or a 997? For a newcomer, you're not very controversial

Nice vids Tom (Himself) and Ahmet you guys rock in my book !! for the rest of all this and I agree with Dell, that whole attidude was off - way off.... especially if you claim in the same thread to be an instructor -

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"Uhhm 1:56... is he still supercharged?", he asked hopefully. Ace996, there's another option for you.

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No, he took the supercharger off a couple years ago....and I think that's on his 100K mile 3.4l motor to boot. 996 is a great dual-use car. That's all I've got to add.

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Deal. Looking forward to it Keep us posted on the progress.