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YOUR RESEARCHDo you think this is bad? with pic
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Run marathons
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Suggestion · Original poster
I do however run marathons and that training will come handy in an unexpected way in the foreseeable future, sadly.
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Suggestion · Original poster
When all was said and done, the insurance decided to write me a check for an amount that ended up being within a few $ of the top number for a private party transaction according to kbb.
Leading evidence: 'Run marathons' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, The most frequently discussed action is 'Check amount' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
- No warning signs, no CEL, engine ran strong etc.
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Suggestion · Original poster
When all was said and done, the insurance decided to write me a check for an amount that ended up being within a few $ of the top number for a private party transaction according to kbb.
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Suggestion
to the OP....if you have time, check around for a "highly recommended shop" in your area.
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Check amount
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Suggestion · Original poster
When all was said and done, the insurance decided to write me a check for an amount that ended up being within a few $ of the top number for a private party transaction according to kbb.
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Ok, this is a rhetorical question really.
I was driving peacefully yesterday, came to a stop sign, the car stalled and would not restart. A quick look towards the back...and there you have it. The car is a 2002 with less than 45k on it, never tracked etc etc. It is with my trusted mechanic at this time and I am now accepting PayPal donations.
And because I try to stay positive, you will notice that the car is well mannered and stopped right where she was supposed to, right on the "stop" marking on the road. Ah the irony... My faith in German engineering is a bit shaken right now (And yes, I read a bunch of threads on the topic...).
Dang kimosabe!.......sad state of affairs...I'd be interested to know what your trusted mechanic has to say about the issue.
Best of luck to you in the future and hope that you are back on the road, real soon.
Poor thing. You wore it out going up and down those SF hills.
Seriously, that is so sad to see. But let's hear what your mech. thinks. That just may be a failed seal, or gasket and not that serious.
Fingers crossed for you!
Sincerely,
Macster.
please have a warranty, please have a warranty.....
not sure who your mechanic is but if he is not familliar with fixing M96's from the inside out...you might think of calling Jake Raby for a suggestion...
Best of luck, what a bad way to start off the day - sorry man
Correct, you may want to contact Jake Raby of Flat 6 Innovations.
Frog, based on the sticker in your window, you could always run to work. More than most Porsche 911 owners can say!
I'm really very sorry to hear about your mishap.
Keep us posted on the problem. There are lots of great people who can give you honest Porsche advice (and, or recommend a good therapist!) Keep your chin up.
...and to think, us 993 owners thought the headlight treatment was the worst thing about the 996
That pic makes my heart, and your wallet, sink.
Best of luck to you.
First of all frog your 911 looks spotless and well taken care of. Where will you or did you have it taken on a flatbed, are they familiar with the 996 engine? Your attitude seems stellar so far...Please let us know of the outcome.
I'm also very sorry for your situation; it's one we all fear. My understanding is that this sort of thing could happen to anyone, LNE upgrade or no. I hope you have a warranty and or the fix is less involved than it first appears. Best of luck.
That picture really angers me.
That just simply shouldn't happen to any $80K car at any point in its life cycle ... and the fact that it has happened to so many with little or no broad brand/reputation impact on Porsche is a miracle.
You have to hand it to them. They successfully ignored the problem away. Amazing in this day and age that this can happen.
Sure. All machines fail. But an estimated 1% catastrophic failure rate for a known issue on an $80,000+ machine, many with less than 50K miles .... that seems irresponsible at best.
I have no idea what the failure rate is, if your number is correct I see 99% success. I am aware of the issues, I have been through an engine replacement. They (99's) are 12yr old cars priced in the mid/upper teens, I like the risk/reward. I don't think it can be beat in another car.
Just my opinion, if I had any more room I'd buy another.
Failure rate is relative. If 1% of people having surgery died or 1% of flights crashed, we'd be up in arms. On the other hand, most batters in the major leagues fail to hit about 75% of the time, and that's acceptable. The bottom line, anyway, is that no one knows the numerator for sure and so it's not possible to really create any meaningful numbers.
agreed, but we are talking about 996's nothing else. My point was more about having some knowledge of the risk/reward of owning a 12 yr old 996 and the costs involved. I chose/choose to be an owner otherwise I would sell my car.
I tend to keep my cars +15 years, and maintain them very well.
I'd buy another 996, or 993, or 964, or 997 (well maybe not a 997) not a hater, love them all.
go to Ferrari chat dor org and listen what they pay for maintenance, clutch and alike,... you will feel better knoing you could get a whole engine for the price of a valve adjust and brake pads....
and you can get an inexpensive Ferrari too....but it will cost you the price of the car in maintenance for sure
My suggestion to the OP would be to have the car looked at by Pete at Rector Porsche in Burlingame. He's resurrected other sick 996 engines (pics of one such engine I posted a while back, an engine that obviously had its IMS bearing fail) and he may be able to resurrect this one.
Sincerely,
Macster.
Agree with you. But I just couldn't bring myself to point that out at the time.
Felt too much like piling on or something.
What a horrible situation to be in, though, regardless.
Sincerely,
Macster.
Ah man, this going to cost mega bucks more than likely you definitely have a situation on your hands there.
Welcome to the Rennlist board, your dealing with a high maintenance car that is worth it regard less of the troubles in the first months or years of beginning ownership. Hopefully in the future you'll have better circumstances next time. Good Luck
The problem with 996's is that they stay new-looking for a long time and people forget that they're actually old cars. Old cars have problems. Some die. Mileage isn't the only thing that determines wear on a car. Time and gravity do their fair share of damage as well.
These horror stories worry me, and so I'm prompted to ask:
If this car stalled while stopped at the stop sign, why is the car actually in the intersection?
Also, did it stall after the oil leaked out, or did it leak out while the engine was running?
If the oil leaked out under pressure while the car was running, was there no early warning (e.g., clatter, dropping oil pressure, increase in temperature, warning light, etc) before the engine stalled?
Do we know the reason for this apparent sudden/catastrophic failure? Is a failed IMS bearing the only possible reason? Could it have been something else?
Seriously? The guy's first post is to ask for compassion who otherwise would not have contributed to this community. This is how these crazy hypes start with people with problems post their issues and skew it out of proportion on the internet.
I feel sorry for anyone who loses $15K in a day but people lose this kind of cash on a daily basis in all different types of life events or decisions. An uninsured car owner who totals a car is another example. My stock portfolio during the tech crash.
I go on record that I am taking the IMS roulette with 97K miles on the OD until my next clutch change.
Man, what a tough crowd.
And maybe a bit early to throw rocks at the guy? If we haven't heard from him by tomorrow sometime I might buy some of this conspiracy theory nonsense. But for now I take him at face value as a happy Porsche owner suddenly facing a huge bill and damages to his beloved car.
People can actually enjoy Porsche ownership without joining Rennlist after all... perhaps hard to believe, I know. But true.
I bet he's busy...trying to sort thru "what to do"
at least it feels better to think that's what is going on....and i guess anything is possible...owning a P-car without thinking of RL....wierd
The driver made a California stop?
Seriously I don't think that the car ended up a bit past the STOP at the intersection matters any.
Understand the OP's situation a bit. Everything is normal up until it isn't. And it goes all horribly wrong very quickly. Even if the engine ran long enough to move the car off the stop it hardly got it one car length so the engine went from healthy (or at least giving no sign of being unhealthy) to probably terminal.
Given the set of circumstances how many of us would be able to report accurately what happened and when?
We do not know the reason for the engine's apparent very sick state. IMS gets a lot of the blame and deservedly so, but there are other things that could have happened. None of them would make the OP feel any better unless he takes it to a dealer and the dealer/factory elect to help cover part of the cost because the engine failure is something that is covered by some 'secret' warranty.
Now I'm not suggesting anything but there have been a few cases I've heard about where the owner takes the car in for a serious engine problem and the car is out of warranty. Sometimes not by much time or miles or sometimes by time (a lot of time) but not by many miles.
The owner is presented with a request he authorize a tear down with the dollar amount estimate to be around $2K. There is no promise that the owner will receive any goodwill and if so how much. There may be the agreement that if there is no goodwill the tear down charge will be forgiven if the owner has the car repaired.
Many owners -- understandly so -- turn this offer down. Some have taken the dealer up on it though and had an engine either completely or partially covered by goodwill. In some cases the tear down finds something wrong that the dealer/factory will cover either in part or in whole. What that is no one I know knows. The dealers don't know. One service manager who has offered this more than once to various owners said there appears to be no pattern.
Sincerely,
Macster.
I'm on my 4th 996 (MK2 @ 157k miles), hasn't been apart for anything. 3 of those had over 100k miles at time of sale, no IMS upgrades or failures yet. Worst thing I've had is a bad cam actuator on one of the MK1 cars at ~110k miles.
wow, rough crowd indeed
Thanks for all the replies. Someone "suggested" that I was looking for compassion: I wasn't, but will take what I can get. The one-liners helped too: Ramen noodles for 2 years? check. A scene from CSI San Francisco? check. etc. Oh, and the flickr link helped too: Nice (happy picture) specimen.
I won't be able to answer all the questions raised here, but here is a summary:
1) Car-related questions:
- The car is at Euro Motorcars in SF. This is a small shop and the flatbed showed up somewhat unannounced, so they haven't been able to get to it yet, hopefully by EOW.
- No warning signs, no CEL, engine ran strong etc.
- The car died right after a stop sign, that's why it's in the intersection on the picture. Trying to remain positive again, the car ended about 6ft after the tracks of the local light rail...
2) Driver-related questions or shall I say "suggestions"
- This may not be my car and I just snapped a picture? All I can say right now is "I wish".
- Is this guy even real? one post and then nothing? Well, I am trying to sort things out and am fairly busy overall...
- This guy never posted before and all of a sudden just post this graphic picture? no, I am not here to scare anyone and just shared an experience that is very much on topic with like-minded people. I will reserve any additional comments re. reliability etc for when I know exactly what the issue is. I've been reading these boards for years also.
- This guy is using this board as a marketing channel? That was funny.
I do however run marathons and that training will come handy in an unexpected way in the foreseeable future, sadly.
I bet it's a blown RMS? So much oil so fast though. Rod through the case? What else could it be? Grenade exploded under the sump plate? Perhaps a recent oil change and someone forgot to screw on the filter housing. Well... Best of luck that it just needs 10 quarts of oil and it'll be back on the road! Odds are though...
I'm with you, but you know after thinking about it more: which side of the fence are "you" on?
5 chains, 2 rows and more to go wrong?
OR
5 chains, 2 rows and harder to break?
The OP's car
IS
a 2002 BTW!!!
We should start a side bet, er something, as to what the actual failure prognosis is. And the winning proceeds go to the repair costs.
I much prefer the MKII motors, they're far simpler and seem to wear better as well, not to mention more reliable variocam actuators (that don't push a tensioner against the chain to change cam timing hence part of the better wear of the pads).
Also, are you guys suggesting that an IMS going bad somehow made a rod go through the cylinder AND the block @ the sump? That doesn't seem very likely...
pretty unlikely a rod came out, but i have seen this type of pic before...so where does the oil come from:
motor stopped - indication of catistrophic event, not just an RMS letting go all at once...
what comes to mind is the chains slapping about and knocking a hole in some thin area? I dont see the craddle moving causing the crank to go off center...
I brought my 996 to Euro Motorcars in SF for a PPI, and I don't think they did a very good job, if they did anything at all. They gave the car a clean bill of health.
Very quickly I realized my car needed a new clutch, had leaky variocam actautors and the spark plug tubes were leaking. Not a huge deal to me since I fixed all this stuff myself for less than $600, but could have been a $2,000 repair bill to someone else.
The shop seemed too rushed to me.
as stated above a PPI is not a good PPI....
my friend just broght his car into the shop for some checking out... had a PPI done somewhere else due to distance/time issues... they missed some pretty big issues....I know of a recent Turbo that went somewhere for PPI and spend like $70....I mean why bother with these people who dont know these cars inside and out - IMO spending WAY more on a PPI and getting WAY better condition evanuation is money WAY AHEAD!
<rant off>
that said, everyone knows an IMS cannot be inspected for condition or we all would be doing it....HURRY JAKE !
to the OP....if you have time, check around for a "highly recommended shop" in your area.
If you are wondering about the competence of the shop, here is the LN Engineering list of shops that have done IMS upgrades. It is as good a place to start as any.
http://www.lnengineering.com/June%20...%20Listing.pdf
For our new friend from Calaveras County, this is one of those things that just can happen sometimes. Hence, the reason many opt for a follow on warranty. 4X,000 miles since 2002 is just not enough. I have seen several cases where not driving the car ENOUGH leads to this kind of problem.
Best of luck with the resolution. Assume this has been your car since 2002.
Timely video as this frog over here is getting a bit jumpy. You know how it is, I miss her already. Nothing new to report yet as the shop is still working on other cars. More to follow soon I hope.
Thank you everyone for the additional pointers. Jake is on my list of folks to call as soon as I know more. I saw on a different thread that he is coming up with a new "something" that may help prevent potential IMS "situations". Selfishly, I will say that he may be a couple of months late here, or maybe I was a couple of months early if this is indeed an IMS issue.
Trying to only think happy thoughts, I dug out a "happy picture" and since blue seem to be a well-liked color around here, on cars or otherwise, I thought I would share. The 356 is my gf's car and based on the current state of my car, you can only imagine what it's going to take for me to be allowed to drive the 356.ever.again.
So here is the latest: My mechanic was finally able to get the car on a lift and basically, "something" perforated the oil pan and it went downhill from there. I didn't hear or feel anything, but looking back and considering that the car died right after I crossed some light rail tracks, these may have had something to do with it. I am extremely careful when it comes to those and was driving very slowly since I was getting to a stop sign, so I am really %%!@# if this is indeed what happened.
We haven't looked under the hood yet to get the appropriate level of details re. the actual damage, but while I am researching options, I have a couple of questions I am hoping some of you can help with :
- Where could I source/price a used 996 engine, any suggestions? places to avoid?
- Where is the "tipping point" when it comes to rebuild vs. engine swap? I realize that this is a fairly generic question at this stage, but any and all thoughts are welcome.
I have filed a claim with Geico also, but I am not holding my breath here...
Perforated as in from the outside or from the inside? If from the outside, there should have been a trail of "blood" from where it happened. That does not happen while it is standing still over flat tarmac. Judging by your pic, it's a pool of blood suggesting it went wrong on the inside first, before breaking the case and/or oilpan.
For engines...
Well unless you have $15-20k for a new replacement from Porsche (I have heard the myth of sympathy replacement from Dr. Porsche). Hopefully your insurance claim will go through.
Stay away from motor meisters whatever you do, from what I hear.
I've done business with Porsche LA auto dismantlers, and they like to deal (Burbank, CA).
Of course, give Jake a call if you want nothing but the best and have the money... or even to get some sound advice depending on what the indy comes back with.
http://www.flat6innovations.com
A website I keep in my back pocket for a really rainy day:
http://sites.google.com/site/mikefoc...ngine-is-blown
And his list of dismantlers:
http://sites.google.com/site/mikefocke2/listsofsources
FWIW, a picture of the oil pan would be helpful to all of us in understanding what happened.
Having replaced one not too long ago myself, I know for a fact that a 3.4L factory remanufactured engine can be found for around $13k. I'm not sure about the 3.6L costs, though a year ago they were less than the 3.4 for some reason. Add of course the cost to install it, but honestly, that should not be a huge dollar amount. Swapping engines out in these cars is not terribly difficult. That engine comes with a two year warranty I believe. When you go factory crate, everything on the engine is new or reconditioned. Starter, intake manifold, coil packs, plugs, serpentine belt, alternator,... With the less expensive "rebuilds" I don't think you really know what you're getting.
Hopefully, you will find that you just need a new oil pan and some fresh oil. Hey, it could happen.
You have several options:
1) source a new engine from PCNA and purchased through a dealer. Have the engine replaced at the dealer. You get a warranty on the parts (engine) and labor. Expensive? Depends. Get a solid quote to at least have as a reference.
2) Locate a used engine from a business that deals in salvaged cars and engines from same. Hard to know what you're getting. The salvaged engine may just be seconds from death's door. Ideally you and your mechanic would like to at least hear the engine run. Since likely one can't drive the car in this case running a compression test would be a good idea. Plus you need to deal wtih a business that gives you some warranty, say if the engine fails in 30 days you get a partial (or full) refund. Something along those lines.
3) Rebuild the existing engine. Generally engines that have failed with engine internals flying about and breaking engine castings are not good rebuild candidates. There's too much metal debris/trash scattered throughout the engine's high pressure oil passages. Rebuild the engine. Start it up. And watch as these hard to nearly impossible to remove metal pieces come lose and turn the rebuilt engine into a poor excuse for a boat anchor.
4) Rebuild another engine. But again you are faced with selecting a good engine to start with. The best rebuild candidates are simply tired engines that have not run out of oil, have not been overheated, have not blown up, but simply have too much piston/cylinder wall clearances, valves are worn, etc.
Let's see where to go...
I have no direct experience with any of these places, but give Jerry Woods a call.
http://jerrywoods.com/
He's down in Campbell CA, IIRC. If he can't help you directly ask him if he can recommend a place.
For salvaged engines Parts Heaven here in Hayward CA might be of some help.
http://www.partsheaven.com/
Again if Parts Heaven can't help ask if it can recommed a business.
Also, look through the ads in Panoram magazine for ads by Porsche salavge/engine salvage businesses.
You might also drop an email to Bruce Anderson at Excellence Mag. However, IIRC he and Jerry Woods hold an engine rebuilding class together so you might end up at Jerry Woods again.
Which is ok if he can help you.
Sincerely,
Macster.
That diagnosis doesn't sound right to me. If your car lost it's oil right their it wouldn't just stall out. You could have driven it quite a while before it eventually overheated and froze up. You could have easily driven a couple hundred yards with no oil at all, especially for cars that use synthetic oil. A car that lost oil gets hot and starts to feel low on power almost like it's running out of gas as the engine starts to seize up. Engine failure due to low oil is not instant. And from the sight of it, your car had plenty of oil in its sump when it stalled.
Your failure was instant as their was no trail of oil leading up to where it died. These cars have deep sumps too, so I can't picture something hitting the pan jamming a rod.
I could believe you threw a rod that busted through the case and looked like you hit something. And if that mechanic couldn't tell the difference.....time for a new mechanic.
Screw logic and what anyone here thinks 'might' have happened...
I would stick hard to the external damage argument. Play dumb. Don't talk too much. Let your mechanic make the argument. If he can convince your insurance company to pay the cost of a new engine then go for it. It they accept liability then my advice would be to hold out for a dealer installed crate engine with 2 year warranty... or get a good independent to do the job and slip him an extra $1,000 to update the IMS bearing the LN Engineering spec before installation.
Good luck.
Oh, and another thing - try to delete this thread and make sure your name and location is nowhere in here. Get that photo pulled if possible.
They make a sump guard plate that bolts right on and only costs about $100. Have one on mine. It is about a 10 min. install. Well worth it. It is a factory Porsche part too.
A week to take a cursory look at the pan? Give me a break. This thread made me want to drive the 3 hours to the city with a jack and look at that myself.
If it were my baby, I would tow her out of that place today. Listen to the guy who commented about the PPI he had done there. They dont seem too interested in your problem and I wouldnt be too interested in giving them any money nor trusting them to handle this.
well, to answer my own question in the title, it was bad, but ended not so badly in the end.
Before going into the details, I want to thank all the folks who contributed to that thread: after many years spent lurking here, I experienced first-hand the camaraderie and depth of knowledge that make these forums so unique and valuable. I am in the process of becoming a "real" member. This is totally worth it and like my dad would say: "this is the *right* thing to do".
Here is the summary:
I filed an insurance claim and after inspection, they concluded that (a) sharp object(s) had indeed hit the bottom of the car in one or more than one instance over a short period of time and that this ultimately resulted in the loss of oil/the engine seizing up. I suspect that some of you will raise questions and ask for more details (technical or otherwise), maybe even challenge some of the findings, but this is the extent of what I know.
Based on these findings, they then looked at a couple of options to get the car back on its wheels: 1) the insurance was unable to find a used engine that was priced in what they thought would be a reasonable range (I didn't ask what their range was since I had no desire to pick up a used engine that may have been worse than my original one), 2) a remanufactured engine from Porsche was $18k+ plus $3k for the core + labor + whatever else was going to be needed. On top of that they would charge me a betterment fee of 15% to account for the fact that a reman. engine would be better than my original engine with 44k on it.
When all was said and done, the insurance decided to write me a check for an amount that ended up being within a few $ of the top number for a private party transaction according to kbb.
So, it's been quite an experience (and one of the reasons I haven't spent much time on here recently), but all in all, I am not unhappy with the resolution. At all.
The not so great news is that I lost a great memory-making machine...the good news is that I get to go car shopping for a new memory-making machine. I am not sure what I am going to get yet, but all I know is that it will be another "911" for sure. It may not be a 996, but I will still spend time reading these 996 boards.
Thanks again for all the insight, the kind words, the jokes etc
WOW. So if that diagnosis was correct, it is possible that a $100 skid plate as simple as this:
Might have prevented all of that, of course if it was sharp enough you would have needed one of these:
I hope it is another 996 or 997. Thanks for sharing the outcome and best of luck!!!
Says a lot for the value of these cars and what Porsche is thinking upstairs when their engines cost as much as the car is worth.
