Really Bad Experience with Dealer

I have been trying to decide all day whether to post a message about what happened to me today. I am so mad and frustrated, I decided I would. I have been looking for a 2001 or 2002 911 Turbo for several months. About three weeks ago I found an interesting listing for a 2002 Lapis Turbo being sold by Don Rosen Imports, a Porsche dealer in Pennsylvania. I emailed the dealer and was contacted by Tim Hoffman, a salesman. I interrogated him about the car. He told me that the car was perfect, never repainted and never in an accident. I had several detailed conversations about the condition of the car. I asked whether he used a paint meter and his response was that they meter every used car, including this one, and there was no repaint. This was important because if we were able to make a deal, I would be buying it site unseen. I would only do this because it was a Porsche dealer and the car would be CPO. It had already been certified when I first spoke to him. I had many more conversations and he assured me that the car was perfect. During one telephone call, he even put me on hold and did a detailed walk around the car just to make sure it was perfect, which he said it was. We negotiated a deal including a trade in for my 2000 911 C2. I gave him a $500 deposit and made arrangements to pick up the car. That included, which he knew, me driving 100 miles in the opposite direction to pick up my car at my summer house, and then driving 200 miles to PA to his dealership. I arrived at the dealership and the Turbo was parked outside. I had no reason to believe it would be anything other than perfect. When I walked up to the driver's side, I noticed an unusual orange peel on the door. I immediately knew the door was repainted. I had him bring it inside as it was raining to inspect the rest of the car. When I told him the door was repainted, he said I was absolutely wrong since the car was metered. The repaint was obvious. I then noticed unusual paint on the driver's side fender, which was obviously repainted. Then, I looked at the hood. I cannot even explain what it looked like. It looked like it was painted by a 5 year old. The front bumper was also repainted. It was clear that the bumper and hood were replaced. I believe the fender and door were also replaced. I was in complete shock that I had just driven several hundred miles for what was one of the worst Turbos, or cars for that matter, that I had ever seen. By this time, the salesman went to get the manager. He looked at the car and immediately confirmed what I had found. He then opened the hood and pulled the rubber seal from the metal, which looks like it was bent and straightened with a vise-grip. This car had clearly been in an accident and so poorly repaired it is almost indescribable. The manager, of course, kept saying that he understood and was apologetic. He could not believe that his used car salesman took the car in on trade and made it available for sale. Everyone was playing ignorant. If you saw the car, there is no way it could have slipped by them. I would not be surprised if this happened at a used car dealership, but this is a Porsche dealer. Finally, the manager offered me $250 for my time. That was an insult. When he asked me what they could do, I told him to give me an incredible deal on the 2003 Turbo that I knew they also had. That, of course, didn't happen. Right or wrong, it was such a bad experience, I felt like I had to post this message. I will be following this up with a letter to Porsche of North America.

Typical car salesmen. I don't trust them any more than I could throw 'em.

Wow! I happen to live about 20 minutes away from this dealership, and I've heard from other people that they can be sleazy. Nonetheless, this story is just incredible. I guess they tried to make some amends with the $250 offer, but I don't blame you for being livid. Please let us know what Porsche USA tells you once you relay this story. I know now I'll never set foot in that dealership.

i had a phone conversion with this dealership month ago, maybe the same "tim", can't remember. the salesman is very rude. so i didn't proceed further. thank god this didn't happen to me. don't have high expectation with user-car dealer. i mean, they are very good to even offer you $250 for your time.

Try not to take it so personally. Yeah you drove a few miles, wasted time etc, but... you did not buy a piece of crap--sight unseen. So take the $250 and count yourself lucky--very lucky. Furthermore, you've given us all a great heads-up. And ask yourself if doing this sort of deal "sight unseen" is a wise decision. good luck, chris

The $250 offer was an insult. There was nothing good about it. I drove for over 6 hours today and took a day off work. They knew that.

If it wasn't a Porsche dealer and CPO, I would not have done that. I certainly would never have purchased it site unseen.

You should definitely write to PCNA since this is a CPO. PCNA underwrites CPO cars. The fact that a poorly repaired car passed as CPO should concern PCNA and warranty some investigation. I think my car was leased from this dealer by the original owner. Thank god it was new then.

That was my thought as well. The dealership actually CPO'ed that car?!

Someone should pass this thread on to PCNA and the owner of Don Rosen imports. I count 4 people in the last six hours who will never darken the door of that dealership. maybe they'll learn something from it, but I doubt it.

better spending the time and checking it out..than sitting on a lemon! $250 is a joke, but believe me here in Newport Beach, you won't get a cup of coffee! and an arrogant attitude on top...

Let the pile on begin: A few years ago I bought a Demo BMW from the Don Rosen Company, 2K on the clock. When I picked it up it wasn't even washed and the interior looked like a frat house. There was even a beer can in the back seat and cigarette butts in the ashtray. I had them detail the car and take another 1K off of the price and was on my way. I noticed the air conditioning didn't work as soon as it started to get warm so I took the car into the dealership with only 600 miles driven. They told me that there was a hole in the condenser and I had to file an insurance claim or pay 2K out of pocket. They said that I must have driven over a tree or something. I have bought 2 BMWs and 2 Porsches since and wouldn't even think of going to them for a quote.

As far as buying sight unseen I have in the past purchased sight unseen, and had great results. I 've also bought from dealerships that claimed a car was never in an accident, which at my visual inspection appearead to be clean. Aafter dealing with the car day in and day out I felt that the "no accident" calim was erronious. After confronting the dealership again...."well, it depends on waht you mean by an accident". Unfortunately, unless the repair is so bad(as in your case) we are left with the integity of the salesperson,lol! I think you were fortunate that the repairs were so poor; otherwise you may have bought a car that was not what you wanted. Out of curiosity, did you ever run a CARFAX. Definitely something I would recommend before wasting time.

Carfax was clean. If it is not reported, it will not show up. Does anyone know to who and where I should send a letter to Porsche?

Cab2u, that is an dreadful story. It really pains me because I purchased my car sight unseen, but I had the benefit of knowing the owner of the dealership for nearly 20 years (my family has continued to patronize his company even though we moved 1000 miles away). On the one hand, you can count your lucky stars that you discovered the problem when you did instead of well after purchase. On the other hand, it really highlights the necessity of having someone give it the once over if you live too far away or dealing with highly recommended dealers. They beauty of Rennlist is that prospective buyers CAN post on the forum and request referrals from a lot of the regulars here and also ask if one of them in the area might pop over for a quick look-see. I'll tell you this, even though I know my dealer is a great source, I'll always swing by here first to get fellow Rennlisters' thoughts on the car, price, and purchase. It's an invaluable resource. And to save everyone else the follow-on, don't forget to become a member if you do get a Pcar....best 20 bucks I ever spent.

I live near Don Rosen Imports - here's the scoop and my story. First off, Don Rosen sold the dealership a few years ago - I believe it's now owned by Jerry Miller (and others?). They also sold Don Rosen BMW to Devon Hill - now operates under the name BMW of the Main Line. Don and his partner Rich Frankel own Audi of Huntingdon Valley (which I do lots of business with and like very much) and Infinity of Willow Grove. For some reason, the DR name was kept for the dealership in Plymouth Meeting (Porsche and Audi). I bought a new '01 S4 from them (from Tom McLewee who is now with Brandywine Porsche) and had a terrific experience. Subsequently bought a new '05 Audi A6 Avant for my wife after the dealership was sold. The transaction was ugly - there was a $750 loyalty rebate which I asked for after the sale (and presented a coupon for). They refused to pay it - saying that it was "included in the sale." The Sales Manager at that time is no longer with the dealership. Their general manager, Keith Shaw (a good guy), made good on the deal and issued the check. But, it left a bad taste and I've not gone back. That's why I'll stick with either Holbert's (Warrington) or Brandywine Porsche to do ANY work on my C4S. Phil

The CPO thing has really got me thinking. Why if porsches are made so well and are "bullet-proof" does everyone insist on getting a cpo? I bought my car a couple of months ago and had a ppi and got it cpo. After driving it for a month or so the oil light came on (won't get back into that. read the other posts), dealer said porsches burn oil? Happened 2 more times until the dealer actually found the problem (worn valve guides is what they said) and replaced the entire engine (under warranty) Do valve guides just wear out after 700 miles? Now what dealer is going to do a cpo or a ppi on a car that they are looking to sell and actually find and/or decide that the car needs a new engine or something major like that? Who would buy a car that just had the engine replaced if they could find a different car? They surely wouldn't get the same amount of money for it. And thus wouldn't make as much money on the sell if they did the work. My feeling is that they will cpo just about anything no matter what the condition knowing that the car will be sold for top dollar and the new owner will be able to get it fixed under warranty. They get top dollar and the owner gets a different car than what they bought. Just my .02

I think you answered your own question there. People want CPO because they want the piece of mind that if the engine blows up they will have coverage just like you did on yours. I had a BMW 540 that I bought used and mandated it be CPO. It was teh best car I have ever owned, but 2 months into ownership it had all the engine bearings replaced. Warranty covered it, and I save something like 7k with parts and labor for that job. The car never had another problem in the 5 years I owned it. It was pretty bullet proof, but I still wanted some warranty backing. These are machines that most people drive pretty hard. They will break no matter how well made. It happens.

My point was more to the fact that you just can't trust the dealer where your buying the car from regardless of any ppi or cpo that they do. You really need to have the car inspected by an indi that has no affiliation with where your buying it. Maybe then you could get the "real" facts on the car. I don't believe the valves on my engine just wore out after the 700 or so miles I put on it. It must of been an issue before i bought it, but the dealer just didn't catch it? I don't think so. Not when the car was burning a quart of oil every 700 miles. They knew that if they replaced the engine they wouldn't get the price I paid for it and thus wouldn't make as much money.Someone has to pay for they're Newport Beach location on the water. Rents not cheap there. The dealer doesn't care if the car breaks down a month after he sold it to you. He got his top dollar and you just end up using your warranty. The dealer doesn't pay for any warranty work. Thats covered by PCNA (right). The dealer has to pay on work they do on the car when they first buy it back and before they sell it. So at the end your just betting on the fact a dealer didn't cut any corners on the cpo and ppi. And we all know how honest car dealers are,right?

Spot on. The CPO is the comfort of mind that you'll have over the next two years in knowing that anything that was potentially hidden or unknown on the car can be resolved. Sometimes the dealer knows, sometimes he doesn't. But, I contend that any major engine problem will happen within those 2 years. Anyway, not to digress.... FWIW, I wonder if an indy can even pick up some of the problems inside the engine. If you don't get a CPO, you're playing with fire unless you and the prior owner are lifelong buddies.

there are some engine-brown stories on this forum, i read a few of them. and every time it happened, there's no indication. such as "i backed out from my driveway, big white cloud, engine fried,", or " i was crusing on the high-way, big white cloud, engine fried". etc. i don't think anyone could easier predicate those engine problems. another question, would PCNA go after those dealership who CPO **** and cost PCNA worranty $$?

Considering the cost of a dealer PPI is fairly insignificant, why would you have it done by an independent? It would seem to me that if a dealer did a PPI and something turned up later (especially something the PPI should have caught), you have more leverage with PCNA should you choose to pursue that route. Am I missing something? I can't imagine going outside my dealer network for anything but basic work (i.e. non-critical items), and only for cost.

Really surprised that the carfax showed up clean... I was always under the impression that you could rely on a clean carfax... guess not! How does carfax gets it's info and how come this didn't show up?

Crybaby

I see. That is more clear and makes perfect sense to me. You're right in that they would CPO the car, get top dollar, then charge the issues back to PCNA when it breaks. Honest car dealers? Yeah right.

The stripper I gave a 20 to in Vegas was the best $20 I ever spent...but to each his own... But yes, Rennlist is definately worth $20...

Get this. I had my friend call the dealer interested in the car, with me on 3 way calling. Yesterday the manager in no uncertain terms said that they would never try and sell a car like this had he known the condition. When we called today, this other salesman was happy to give us information about the car STILL for sale. He did, however, say that he thinks that the front fender was repainted as a result of a very small accident, but he believes that was all that was repainted. What about the door, hood and bumper? When my friend asked if he looked over the car, he said that he had, and it was even in the showroom yesterday. Yea, it was in the showroom when I had them drive it in to look at the car. Every salesman there saw what was going on when I was there.

the thing is, from a business standpoint, I can't really blame them. Yes it's terrible, and unscrupulkous and shady - but they can't really afford to lose that much on work, and THEN have the car discounted beyond that.... I bet most people here are businessmen and while it's more complicated than that they can see a bit of the dealership's point.

I just signed up for rennlist by the recommendation of a friend of mine and I found this thread very odd. Both my friend and I both bought 911's from Tim Hoffman (although my friend bought the turbo s and I just got the basic 997 C2) and found him to be very helpfull. My wife recently took my new car for a drive and scratched the rims on the drivier's side and Tim was most helpful in getting the wheels repaired for me at no cost. There must be something that I'm missing. I'm heading over to Don Rosen to pick-up my wife's new car. I had to buy her one if I was allowed to get another,lol. I hope you all had a good weekend

Hello, Tim.

Vancouver83- What point could the dealership have? I don't know what kind of business your in but customer service and keeping your customers happy is one of the first rules of business. If what your selling isn't what the customer believes it to be then your going to have very unhappy customers looking to do business with someone else. Nobody wants to be taken or felt like they've been ripped off. The dealers do inspections on the cars before they take them in. They know what kind of room there will be on price. They set the price for the cars they sell. You would hope/think that a Porsche dealer isn't going to cut corners on the inspection, but they do. I know one thing I will never buy another car from Newport Auto again. And if you think that they were right to cut some corners and save a few bucks, then you have no idea. Look at the big picture of things. How many more cars do you think I'll buy in my lifetime or my friends. Do you think I'll recommend them to anyone? Not a chance. Save a few bucks today or make a lot more bucks over time? No Brainer.

IIRC, I thought Vancouver is a teenager in high school. In all seriousness, I'm not flaming him, just recalling what stated some time back when asked. Remember all the pics of his young female friends ???

That sucks! I assume you got your $500 deposit back?? I also think it would be a good idea to report this to PCNA. It's too bad you werren't able to take any images. I always carry my pocket digital camera with me. Hope you have the VIN # to include with your complaint. Otherwise it might become your word against theirs.

cab, is this the car? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/02-tu...QQcmdZViewItem

Yes, that is the car. Don Rosen wholesaled it to them. My favorite part of the post (although I love the entire post) is : This extremely well maintained, low mileage vehicle really is in Excellent condition. I stress this! What else could you ask for in a sports car. This vehicle has it all! This car is in the finest of condition. It has a clear title. It literally looks new inside and out.. The paint shines like the day it was brought off the line. You won't find one looks better (even in a showroom). Please feel assured that your vehicle will arrive to you as it has been described here on the internet.

I would never let a dealer touch any of my cars unless they were doing it for free. Just a matter of ones past experience and perspective.

Declare a jihad?!?

Carfax is bull**** and dealers lie!!! Buyer beware.Some schmuck will buy it.

Thanks Dell- I was thinking that but didn't want to offend him if I was wrong. Missed the earlier posts.

Amazing story. I've been very happy with Brandywine for new car purchase and warranty work. Hope the situation at DR improves.