Did anyone read "How to drive a 911 properly" in Porsche World Mag?

A really good article about the 911s dynamics. It goes into the large polar moment and long lever due to the rear engine. Really good read. I know most of you are Excellence readers so it might be worth picking up the 911 & Porsche World mag this month.

How to drive a 911 properly == 'DON'T LIFT OFF THE THROTTLE IN A TURN' (unless you really want to see how well 'Please Save Me' a.k.a Porsche Stability Management, is working that day....) Simple.

Especially in a C4, or C4S.

I would be curious to read that. Is it available online anywhere?

Step 1: Brake late.....later......LATER........................ LATER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Step 2: Lifting on sweepers = makeshift merrygoround.

I wonder if Coochas is going to put it on his website and save us a trip to Borders...?

above (never lift!) is what ive always constantly heard from forums, articles online, etc... however: i went to the potomac pca auto-x beginners school. the instructors said "when the front end pushes, because it will, lift off the throttle and you'll regain traction, i.e. steering ability". i tested this to no end in the tight low-speed exercises and the course. not once was the back end able to step out at all. ever. lifting has only regained traction in the front and never lost in the rear, even with incredibly abrupt throttle adjustments. this is all with a 99 c2, bone stock. thoughts?

I say if your car is pushing you need a more aggressive alignment / suspension, everyone know s how bad these cars push stock...NEVER LIFT is the only rule of thumb for these cars or at least what i have found, just thinking about makes total sense.

mrhmmhmm - the "pushing" (understeer) is dialed in by the factory as a safety measure. While we'd all like our cars to be perfectly neutral, understeer is much more easily handled by a novice driver than oversteer. Typical auto-x speeds aren't usually high enough to allow good line changes via oversteer - so lifting helps take the load off the front, outside tire. Lifting in a high speed sweeper unloads the rear tires and the car will oversteer - not the snap 360 like the old 911's, but you can easily swap ends.

I read the article and wasn't impressed. There was some theory about polar moment but no real tips. Just some old stories about how Jurgen Barth got a 911 side ways and brought it back. The author tried to do the same but couldn't do it. Fortunately, there were other articles in th mag that were worth reading (specal on RS models and story about rebuilding m96 engines).

The first vehicle that I ever had on a track was a motorcycle. Riding a bike on track the first rule of thumb is that you don't lift mid turn or else you'll crash (at least if you're near the limits of the machine). In switching to cars after deciding that racing motorcycles was not for me (or at least my left shoulder) instructors at my first few events in the M3 actually had urge me to lift mid turn to set the front tires in an understeer situation and it was a tough transition for me to actually become less smooth to manipulate the car the way I wanted. I've read that the older 911's were the same territory as a bike...with the no lift mentality...but I've riden in a few 996's on track and it seems as though they're much more tame and forgiving than most give them credit for. I'm hoping my bike background makes the transition to driving a 996 on track a much smoother one...I'll find out soon I suppose. Andy

The trick with a 996, like every other car, is to move your car's weight to where it's needed to optimize your trip through a corner. The no-lift idea is just a safeguard for beginners. If your car is pushing it needs more weight on the front tires. The best way to move weight to the front (while moving) is to feather the gas a little. BTW, since every corner is different there is no such thing as a neutral car. A properly set up track car will push a little in some corners and over-steer a little in others. If it feels neutral all the time then you�re going too slow! If your car is over-steering you need to move weight back which is best accomplished by adding throttle. This is where lifting can be a real problem because is further reduces traction in the rear. Obviously this is worse in a 911/996 with the engine hanging off the back bumper. Dead, I have to disagree on braking late. 996s seem to prefer longer, lighter braking zones. Try braking earlier and through your turn-in as a way of keeping the car more balanced and settled. This also allows you to turn in earlier because the car will rotate much better on the way to the apex. Just an idea that works for me. Jim

Well said Jim. I have experimentited many times with diff braking zones and levels of braking pressure and have found that I can navigate much easier with method you have suggested as well as pick up time on the course!

If you happen to lift in a high-speed sweeper, how do you recover if the rear starts to get loose? I suppose getting on the throttle (to press the rear end) is the key, but I've heard differing opinions on how to do this quickly (too slow on the throttle= you will oversteer & crash, too fast & hard on the throttle = you will power oversteer & crash). Then there's my race instructor, who says you should really come in to a turn slow and exit fast, regardless of what kind of turn it is. So braking hard & progressively and in as short a distance as possible before the turn (+ a little trailbraking) is what you really want. But then, how do you handle descending radius turns? What do you guys think? I haven't taken my car to a high speed track to find out yet, but any advice from you guys who've tracked your cars would be great!

Your race instructor, if you quoted him correctly, is wrong. Every turn is different. The goal is to enter as fast as you can without compromising your exit on corners that lead onto straights. If the turn is at the end of a straight and leads to another corner, you probably want to enter fast and compromise the exit. Slow in, fast out is the DE mantra and is meant to keep you safe. Remember, there are no such thoughts as "always" and "never". There are exceptions. As far as saving a car, there is a feel which gets developed with seat time. Unfortunately, there isn't much time to plan when the back end is coming around...

Many times instructors say things that are right for the student and for the situation but not necessarily right in the long run. A prime example is "you need to get all your braking done in a straight line." That's probably good advice for your first few times on the track but isn't the right long-term answer. Slow in - fast out was probably what your instruction thought was the best advice at the moment. He/she will likely update that advice as you get more experience. Actually I know nothing about your situation so I'm just guessing. If you lift in a corner or if your back breaks loose for whatever reason, I think the right answer is gentle throttle and soft hands. Don't do anything too abrupt. Squeeze the throttle and gently turn into the oversteer. Praying can't hurt either. Jim

Thanks that was really informative! And my situation is total novice so what you're saying makes total sense. I think the tough part right now is dealing with the fact that gentle throttle and smooth hands is pretty hard for me to do at even moderate speed - the pros make it look so easy driving fast. Regards, -Joe

Here is a link to Part 3 of the article, and an order form to buy the entire reprint: http://www.chpltd.com/911_porsche_world/911pt3.html

I read the mentioned article and was not at all inpressed: it was full of vulgata and wrong thruths! The expert seems not such an expert after all... A few comments on the subject (not the article, it is not worth it): 1. 911 C2 and C4 driving is very different, therefore suggestions or recommendations have to take this into account 2. generally speaking: slow-in fast out is the best approach 3. always brake while on the straight line; start turning after you leave the brakes; doing otherwise only when you can safely and quickly compensate for the slide that will be induced by braking while turning 4. lift-off at mid turn can be very helpful if you do it very delictely, not abruptly; better leave this to the experienced and skilled driver; yeah, that's true one can be an experienced driver but not a skilled driver!... 5. lift-off has different consequences on a C2 and on a C4 while for instance in a Boxster it does not have almost any effect because of mass distribution and central engine (I am not talking about brutal lift-off) Always drive safely and avoid the landscape :

And what about trailbraking??? If you practice ONLY this style of braking you mention you will never get your lap times down and use braking in a manner that allows you to shift weight more effeciently as well as get better turn in.

Jaime, Welcome to the board. You'll like it here. I have to say that your first post has me a little baffled though. You state your opinions as though they are fact but I'm afraid I disagree with almost everything you said. Here is my 2 cents worth. 1) Yes C2 and C4s are different but not as different in 996s as earlier cars. 2) Generally speaking, there is no general way to define the best way to go through a corner. Each one is unique and should be treated as such. That's what makes this sport fun. Slow-in/fast-out is frequently not the best approach. I would actually say that it�s a very poor way of describing what should be happening in a corner. 3) Only braking in a straight line is a really bad idea only taught to novices. I always try to have my students braking through turn-in on their first day. Think about what happens when you come off the brake just before turn-in. Your front lifts, your weight shifts to the back and your front tires have the least amount of traction right when you need them to have the most. 4) I agree that lifting to rotate a car takes some time to learn to do effectively. 5) A Boxster/Cayman reacts the same to a lift as a 911 just to a lesser degree. The mid engine cars actually rotate quite nicely. No offense Jamie but people read these posts looking for meaningful guidance. I always try to avoid topics that I don�t really understand (you've never seen me post on how to wax a car! ) and try to put a little disclaimer on topics where I think I�m right but not absolutely certain. Jim

This worked for me at a recent DE. I early apexed a corner, panicked and lifted off the throttle inducing the start of a fishtail. I gently added back the gas and turned - just a little - to the outside and my stock 01 996 C2 Cab recovered very nicely. I told my instructor: "I meant to do that". The skid training I received at a Bob Bondurant course a couple of years ago really helped to instill what turned out to be really a thoughtless reaction. One important bit of advice: Keep looking where you want to go. That makes a tremendous difference.

How indepth did they get on the M96 engines-worth the buy?

Well I'll throw in my $.02 on this one. "If you happen to lift in a high-speed sweeper, how do you recover if the rear starts to get loose? " Well you have to ask your self why it got loose to address the situation and be safe. 1) You were going too fast, yes this can happen! :-) Answer: Keeping your foot in it is not going to make this better, combine opening of the wheel as you try to reduce speed, if your going to go off better to do it in a straight line under braking than with the rear-end breaking loose and your steering-wheel trying to steer you into a loop. 2) Pinched the exit of a turn and you rolled on the power too fast Answer: Do a quick release and grap of the steering wheel, caster will pop you front wheel straight, you got to be quick but it works. (little to no lift or no lift) 3) You were off your line and you tried to drive to the apex and it required too much turn in, however, the front wheel did not break loose and your ***-end begins to position itself for a passing manuver :-) Answer: Try to counter-steer with quich sawing motion of the wheel (NOT FULL Lock other direction), sometimes a quick saw will get let the suspension set enought to stop the rear from getting loose. (No lift) 4) High speed sweeper (Fast in-slow out turn, like at the end of a straight) you turn in and you feel her get light. Answer: open the wheel just a bit and do a little lite-trail brake with your left foot (practice this before you need to do it in real life you will find you learn to carry a lot more speed in the turns but it can be very scary on entry.....first time is a real pucker....) (No lift, control throtle while braking) 5) High speed sweeper ( Slow-in fast-out) these are the killers, normally you screwed your line, your early and your hot all bad combinations Answer: IF IT IS SAFE run over the inside, put your UNLOADED front tire off in the grass and drive over the top of the apex and open up your wheel as soon as possible (NOT LIFTING or ADDING POWER). You know you hosed the turn get out of it and give up the exit. TOO MANY people are worried about saving the turn and NOT the car...SAVE the CAR, so what if you have to ease as you exit. For all the ones I listed there are a million other situations, but I tried to cover what I have seen so many students do wrong over the years (including myself) and the safe way to save the car. I look forward to the feed back...... Armando

keep this thread going guys, its really interesting for a track novice like me.

/\ /\..... X2

The "never lift" thing definitely doesn't apply to 996 C2's (which is my only 911 track experience). Without the GT-3 rear bar that I recently added, I had to lift abrubtly in some low speed corners to get the car to rotate. That has a deleterious effect on your exit speed. With the GT-3 rear bar set one from the firmest setting, I can now much more subtly throttle steer the car through most corners. Having a pretty substantial amount of track time between a 944 turbo and the 996, I feel I can quite accurately state that mitch326 and JimB are definitely the people to listen carefully to in this thread thus far (FWIW). No offense though to anyone else that's chimed in.

Jim, Thanks for your post. The reason for my comments are 3 -fold 1. instruction by TAC driving teachers ( www.tac.es ) in at least 3 different occasions, including a particular course on wet-circuit driving; TAC has been responsible for running the Porsche Driving School; 2. some racing experience - karts, 24-hour Estoril, MG Trophy and classic cars races (standard, unmodified) normally with acceptable results 3. more than 1 million kms driving experience in over 60 different models, including 4 or 5 Porsches of which I owned a 2.7 boxster (for 80.000 kms) and a current 996 Carrera 4S cabrio (now 35.000kms) Having said that I understand a forum is an exchange of ideias and experiences (valuable experiences, preferably) and differences of opinion are bound to happen. I agree that one should speak of what they know but experiences matter. And, excuse me, meaningful guidance from who? Why the particular expertise? Drive safely. Jaime

Welcome Jaime. Things you said are well based on We are you from?