Small oil(?) spots on garage floor.....

My '04 C4S Cab began showing a few signs of oil about a month ago (took delivery May '04). Small spot in same location, about the size of a quarter. Not a puddle, not black, but light brown, almost looks like a smudge. Not there each day. Car might sit 3-4 days, then spot. Otherwise nothing much. Only slight drop in oil measurement noticed. Not really sure if it's cosmoline or oil. Service appointment next week. Yeah, I'm concerned about RMS, but figure it might be something less dramatic. Hoping, anyway. Thoughts?

Smells like RMS Eric.

Mine did the same thing - RMS.

Where in relation to the engine is the spot? If is right in the middle, it's most likely RMS. If it's off to the side, it's cam covers or something else. That's what I had, leaky cam covers.

mine did the same....join the club Eric.....RMS.....

Gee, thanks for the encouragement. Anyway, here is a shot I got, as close as I could without a lift:

Here are two more shots. What do you think?

EUREKA! This should show it clear enough:

Well, I was feeling hopeful (cosmoline) until you posted that last picture... I'm sorry Eric.

Yep.....on a similar note...my cuz's new 996 was leaking what appeared to be oil...(small puddles central located)....turned out to be cosmoline from new engine and likely over zealously put on. But that last pic does look suspicious. I know the stress...been there..... AK. ps, love my bumper plugs...

Very sad that Porsche still puts out this kind of product in an 04 car........ Very, very sad...............

Looks like a rear main but the pictures arent the same as standing under the car. No worries though, this is why you have a warranty.

Re: last shot - isn't that the rear axle transmission cover? It looks a leak from the transmission.

Eric, tough luck man. just goes to show you, the RMS issue is alive and well in '05, nothing has changed in these f'n engines.

Eric: The 2 things that are in the back of the engine that can leak are the RMS seal, and the ISS seal. I have been seeing more Intermediate Shaft Seal leaks lately, than RMS leaks. Either way it is about a 4 hour warranty repair job. No worries.

I'd suggest bringing the latest RMS TSB (available at renntech.org) with you to the dealer. For any RMS leak, it calls for also replacing the intermediate shaft seal, and 6 bolts with new, coated, ones.

Mine too Guys, i have an 04 with 21,000 kms ( approx 14,000 miles), dealer will be changing mine today. along with a clutch..................It really is too bad that Porsche is more concerned with profit then customer service................I mean this really does put a bad taste in my mouth, Way to go Porsche!, I do hope that Brand Name means something to those guys because I WILL NOT get another one. It really is too bad, i have worked hard and invested well and bought my dream car, and because of their greed They have lost a customer that was so into their Brand name............Oh Well MB has a new LOYAL customer...............................Just my thoughts guys

Why are you getting a new clutch at 14,000 miles? Do you abuse your car that much, that the friction plate is slipping at that few miles?

Not so sure Eric. That last pic looks like the oil is leaking under the pinion bearing not the bell housing. The RMS leak is absolute dead centre behind the engine where the gearbox bellhousing meets the engine and looking from the back of the car. If the leak is not centre then it's something else. Anyway, if it is the RMS here's a sticker for you: http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/rmsclubfailed2.jpg Anyone and everyone who has had or has an RMS problem should be displaying this in his sig or avatar.

No i do not abuse ther car..............Oil from the rear main seal has got on the friction plate............rendering the clutch useless And honestly a car of that price should take a beating.....but its not the quaility car it once was..

I doubt that very seriously. RMS leakage at that few miles does not get on the clutch.

I can't believe you said that Orient. Obviously his OPC diagnosed this problem not him. They should know. If there is oil on the clutch mechanism and the RMS is leaking don't you think the maths add up here. Recall that it has been known for a delivery miles 996 to sit on the showroom floor leaking oil from the RMS. So 14,000 miles is fair game. My 1st RMS was noticed at 27,000 miles that's only twice as many miles. Just as a matter of interest, how does one go about abusing a 996. Take it to a track? take it to red line? I mean short of stage 2 gear changes through bad driving technique (which is recorded in the ECU) I can't see how you could abuse a Porsche short of driving it off a cliff.

what is a stage 2 gear change?

Your change down gear instead of up at high revs. This may be accidental or on purpose but either way its the fastest way to destrying your engine and/or gearbox....and is not covered under warranty.

No i do not abuse ther car..............Oil from the rear main seal has got on the friction plate............rendering the clutch useless That may be your problem. You MUST abuse the car regularly to avoid major problems! I am half serious here. I read about all the RMS problems on this board and most of the owners swear that they followed the break in period religiously and never abuse their car. Well, of the 996 owners I drive with (none have had major problems) we all redlined the car right after driving off the showroom floor. We seldom shift to 2nd gear before bouncing off the rev limiter. It is like a kid.....you need to train the car early to make sure it behaves as you want.

You know you just may have a point there. There;s some theory that the RMS only leaks when the engine cools down due to temp changes in the allow of the block. If everything is new in the engine then the correct breakin procedure would cause all these things (block, seals etc) to weld into their correct operating shape and merge with each other. If the break in procedure is too soft (as with my car) then it may prove to be a problem later on in the life of the engine. I wonder if PAG have considered this.

Scouser, Thanks for the clarification on the stage 2 gear change. I agree that is a good way to mangle things up! Tim

I couldn't find a new RMS TSB on renntech.org, can you reference a URL? I'm concerned because I just had my RMS replaced Monday, after 9,000 miles on engine #2. Engine #1 lasted 29,000 before the RMS failed and led to a new engine. Anyway, according to the work order they replaced the shaft seal (999-113-490-41), 15 different screws (8 999-073-092-09, 4 999-385-004-09, and 3 900-385-275-09), and one Aluminium Seal ring (900-123-106-30), but they did NOT replace the intermediate shaft seal or any bolt in quantity 6. Should I be concerned/take it back to have them re-do it, just wait for it to leak again, or ignore it and be happy? Bob

Unbelievable! These engines are a time bomb! ....and I can't say I like the gearbox much either

Eric, I had a similar oil issue, was sure it was the RMS and it turned out to be one of the spark plug boots leaking. There are sources for oil leaks other than RMS, lets hope!

Spark Plug boot? I have never heard of a spark plug boot that seals in oil. I think you mean the valve cover gasket arround the spark plug hole was leaking. Any way Eric by the looks of the oil around the tranny i would have to say that you either have a tranny leak from the intermediate shaft or the RMS is leaking. With the history of RMS problem its most likely you have it. Either way bring it in and have it corrected.

He is referring to the Oil Potection Tube that is in encases each plug. Sometimes the "o" rings on the tubes are bad and the tube will fill with oil. There are new designed "o" rings when you replace them

The "new" engine having an RMS leak at 9K miles worries me much more than the original going at 29K, as it clearly indicates things hadn't all been sorted out by February when the new engine went in. As long as Porsche keeps paying for the repairs and providing a decent loaner for the days they have the car, I'm not too upset, but if I start having to pay I'll certainly be very unhappy.

Souser: you must be using the "new Math" I said that, because of 35 years of dealing with this sort of stuff, I know what is likely and what is not. It is extremely unlikely that an engine crankshaft seal will cause a clutch plate to be contaminated with oil. This is because of the flywheel being in the way. If anything oil will migrate to the engine side of the flywheel and be flung into the bell housing. A contaminated clutch plate from engine oil just does not happen on such a low milage vehicle. If in fact the clutch plate is contaminated, the source of oil contamination for a clutch plate would be from the transmission main shaft seal leaking. Transmission Oil will migrate down the main shaft, and onto the clutch plate which it is attached to. The throw-out bearing action will help move the oil down the shaft to the clutch plate. Since there was no mention of a transmission oil leak, I suspect that someone is going to make a couple of extra bucks (or pounds) from someone here by replacing a clutch plate. If this clutch plate was indeed oil soaked, I'd like to see a picture of that for my "strange and unusual" photo collection.

Hmmm.....that humble pie was scrumptious Having read your synopsis I agree with you. As a matter of interest, can you shed some light as to the theory that the RMS can lead to clutch contamination? BTW: math/maths/tomatoe/tomato.....I only know English

You are a true gentleman A engine main seal oil leak could cause clutch plate contamination given enough time and a significant enough leak. The oil that would be flung up into the bell housing will usually first be soaked up by the clutch plate dust that accumulates up in there. If there is more oil than dust to soak it up, it will eventually drip down onto the pressure plate, and the clutch plate, especially when the car is hot and at rest. Over time, and with enough oil, the clutch will slip. This fellows case does not fit into this situation.

Where does this oil come from? The spark plug well in the cylinder head does not have any oil galleries in it. Are you thinking of pushrod tubes from the air-cooled days?

Are you thinking of pushrod tubes from the air-cooled days? Each slot for the spark plugs is lined with a plastic tube that has an "o" ring at the top and the bottom of it. The tube is about 5 inches in length and maybe 1 1/4 inch in diameter. This tubes keeps oil from the valve train from leaking. Next time you change your plugs, take a look and you will see them. I have changed the "o" rings on some of mine.

I had spark plug O ring replaced due to leakage...

Berny...you contribute to a lot of RMS threads, I know you have had some experience with this subject. However, how is that the engine is a "time bomb" because it has an RMS failure and it leaks a drop here and there? I'm sorry, but this sounds a tad bit overly dramatic if you ask me.

Although a really good point you both make, I can readily say that I have put both my Pcars through the proverbial ringer with breakin and how I drive them. I take all the proper procedures with regard to warm up...but I drive the car like that..of what it is...a sports car. And with that being said, I've had six RMS leaks, two ISS leaks, a cam shaft leak, a transmission and four new engines. So...I don't think there is any theory or conclusion to either. Some of us treat them like babies and others do not...there is no correlation as far as I can see. It happens...or it doesn't. We do a lot of guessing as to why, to symptoms, etc...there is only one who knows...and that's Porsche. And guess what folks, they aren't talking. I'm still happy...it's under warranty and I merely roll my eyes to those who say they will vehemently never own another Porsche for the simple reason it has had a little oil leak. Own one or don't, I really don't think the most profitable car company in the world gives a half a damn if you go on a personal Porsche strike...which I believe to be rather ironic...those who say it and STILL keep there car. If you dislike it so much, dump it and move on. But for Pete's sake, quit bitchin' about already. Life is too short to be this unhappy about an inanimate object. But, that is just my humble opinion of course.

Sorry mate my bad. I was just agast at yet another engine problem popping up. Seems like every other post is engine RMS this or engine blowing up that. I was just saying, these engines are a time bomb. Anything can happen next....but what makes it worse is that it's got to the stage where "it's likely to happen" and that's what worries me. As it happens I just posted a "long" reply to a guy on the PCGB forum. I will post it here again but bear in mind that its UK oriented......You will probably say that I am being too dramatic here but in relation to the many threads that are "engine blown up" and "RMS failure" related on PCGB I was asked to explain in deatil. As I said in this post it's just my opinion on the matter. I will add here that it is also just my theory on the matter. Here we go..... My opinions are likely to be extremely biased and negative because of the problems and treatment I have had with my 996 so take what I have to say here as either good or bad. You make your own mind up. This is just IMHO. I think there is no kidding around with the RMS issue. Go seek every Porsche Forum on the ethernet and you will see that it's the most talked about subject in regards to this marque. The RMS is a problem. I don't think I need to convince you or anyone else on that matter. As for what it means. Well all cars have their share of RMS leaks. But in the 986 and 996 its is too common and especially for a car of this price. It is, after all, supposed to be the epitome of German engineering quality. The name Porsche exudes the meaning of quality and that's what we have come to expect when purchase these exotic cars. Many say that the RMS leak is nothing to worry about and you should just live with it. Other's say its a serious problem as it can lead to future nightmares. All I can tell you is what I have learned after 5 RMS replacements and a knackered gearbox (which I hope to have fixed in January at my own expense). The crankshaft has 7 bearings although all but the Front Main Bearing and Rear Main Bearing are shell bearings. The other two are encapsulated bearings that fit onto each end of the shaft. The seal we talk about so much is called the Rear Main Seal. It sits on the end facing the gearbox. There is a FMS (Front Main Seal) that is on the front of the crank and also an IMS Intermediate seal which is attached to the intermediate shaft at the gearbox end. The purpose of a seal is two fold: a) to keep the oil from seeping out of the engine and b) to prevent dirt entering into it (in the case of RMS vis clutch dust). If the RMS fails completely then there will be considerable ammounts of oil leaking and probably clutch/flywheel contamination. If it fails partially, then it will seep oil out to the bell housing. Over time this can build up and be swished onto the clutch mechanism (one guy on rennlist has just reported this exact problem happened to his 996). If the Main bearing is contaminated it may lead to its detruction as the contamination wears at the bearing mechanism. If the main bearing fails then the engine will have serious problems. If the bearing has play and the crank has a wobble (even by a thou of an inch) it may lead to gearbox and/or engine problems. Conversly, if the gearbox has a problem or is not splined into the clutch mechanism correctly (aligned) then it can cause excessive load on the crankshaft and thus lead to Main bearing and/or RMS problems. It's is also possible for the engine block to warp or the two block halves to become missailigned due to temperature changes (cooling) or incorrectly tightened bolts. Porsche has released a new set of "blue" bolts and there have been several changes in the RMS seal (I think 4). Regarding engine damage: The fact that Porsche have produced several TSBs and different parts (bolts, seals, bearings and even engine block) is evidence that there is likely long term damage imminent. Consider also that Porsche often replace engines (especially in the US and for warranty cars in ROW) for repeat RMS offending engines. This is evidence that there is reason to be worried. Why would they go to such drastic measures if it was nothing to be concerned about. Regarding is it worth the risk: Well the cost of an RMS eplacement is at least 6 hours labour and possibly a clutch and flywheel. A flywheel is about �400 and a clutch about �250. You can get an RMS replaced at an independent for as little as �270 but then you will forfeit any claim with Porsche in the future if you should need it. If your car is within warranty then you are covered. But out of warranty and you are in my situation... with not much of a leg to stand on. If you sell the car and you pass on the problems then you may be liable for the repair costs by the new owner. In any case residuals of this car are falling rapidly because of the RMS and engine problems. If you're rich and can sustain the cost of running these cars with this knowledge then it is worth the risk. Regarding engines blowing up: From what I have seen most of these have been cylinder lining issues. The 996 engine uses cylinder sleeves. These sleeves are made from highly porous materia (25% silicon, 75% air) which is cast into the crankcase cyinder bores. At casting time, the air escapes leaving only the silicon in the cylinder lining but this is known to breakdown due to condensation buildup in the cylinder bores which lead to the sleeves pasting. The resulting play in the cylinder bore causes the engine piston to shake and collapse. The debris spread throught the engine causes catastophic engine failure. The only answer is a replacement engine. Of course if a bearing or bearing shell should fail then the same problem occurs. Regarding Porsche's attitude: Well they are, after all, a public corporate buisness with a sole aim to satisfy its shareholders. They are not in the business of doing anyone any favours. Saying that, I have to be fair and say that PUK do "normally" offer good-will on a car that is 5 years old or younger. But after that your on your own. The main issue is that so many 996 (and Boxster) owners have reprted RMS failures and engines blowing up at low mileage. Much more than the norm. In many cases there are multiple RMS failures reported as in my case. But Porsche refuse to acknowledge the problem. Furthermore, it is clearly a manufacturing fault or defect in manufacturing process. If it wasn't then they would not have come out with new types of parts in an effort to fix the problem and it would not be so common. It also would not show up until the car has done considerable mileage but the RMS has been known to fail on the showroom floor in a car with delivery miles. The fact that it's a manufacturing defect means they have sold their goods without them being fit for their purpose and as a result they have breached the Sale of Goods Act of 1994 (UK). Then there is another question, why is that we don't have FMS failures reported? It seems the main issue is only the RMS or IMS but mostly the former. In any case it's at the gearbox or torque end of the engine. So it is feasible that the gearbox could be the cause or at least the area where the transfer of power to it is affected. You also have to take into account the service history of the car. If it's been maintained correcty by the Porsche dealership using Porsche approved parts and procedures then there should be no reason that the mechanics of the car should fail in this manner. Especially in an engine of this calibre and at such low mileage as is seen so often vis my car's 1st RMS was at 27,000 miles....and so ws the gearbox. Finally you also have to take into consideration the survey's that PCGB are conducting. The Boxster survey already shows clearly that the RMS failure is all too common. I feel certain the 996 survey will say same. I am particularly interested also in the rate of engine failures in the 996 and its relation to the RMS. But we will have to wait and see the outcome. So, in summary, they are "the" best car to drive. But take it from me, they are mechanically flawed and unless you have warranty, you better have a very big slush fund.

Gosh Berny...you just have to love the fact that our online community is able to share such detailed and technical information. Being an educated consumer is half the battle indeed. And believe it or not, I do understand your frustration, we have both been around the block with regard to this RMS issue. With all of this being said, I will ALWAYS own a Porsche. However, I will never own one out of warranty. I'll drive it on my dime, they can fix it on theirs. And you are right, there are far too many RMS threads, the problem is real, but...not much is being done about it to permenantly fix it. So I deal with it the best I can and make the best of it. In the end...and this is absolutely the BEST part...I'm still driving a Porsche! Cheers my friend...oh...and is it common to call ladies "mates" over there?

Results are in: Rear Main Seal replaced. Measurements are shown here: Expert tech working on the car said the balance of the engine/tranny/clutch areas were clean as a whistle, very little oil in the area, minor slinging from the seal leakage, and within tolerances from Porsche on the concentric measurements. Hopefully this will do it. Thanks for the support guys/gals.

Good for you Eric. Do you know what the spec measurements should be or shouldn't be for that matter? Also.....OT....I hear you can supply painted door key covers... I want some How much?

+.30 is the number they consider for engine replacement. On mine, the maximum differential is .24 (10.16 - 9.92). Still within spec (under the .30 number).

Our custom Door Plugs for Porsche cars (and many others, for that matter) are listed on the order page. In stock colors ship same day in most cases. Email me if you don't see what you are looking for. Thanks!

Ok ok Lets clear this clutch thing up........First off I am NOT the one who was under the car and said " Hey there is oil on the cluth" I know for a fact it was a tech who then inturn told the Service advisor, SO YEA RMS DO RUIN CLUTCH PLATES, Why would they replace NO CHARGE if it were my fault??? For the money this car was sold for , i should be able to beat it day in and day out, Some one said on the forums " That porsche is an SUV mfg making ageing Sport cars" SOOO TRUE

My clutch was replaced on my last car, the 2002 996 due to the RMS problem.

By the way, my local dealer told me that if a particular car experiences the RMS problem three times, they have authorization to replace the engine because Porsche has not provided them with the tools needed to machine/modify/whatever the crankcase at the seal surfaces.

Kil, I feel for you man. So far I've been fotunate enough not to have a lick of trouble, and I do run it hard on a daily basis. Mine IS a daily driver/ tracked car with 24K on it and counting. What other car could you drive 5 hrs to watkin glen, run the **** out of it for two days straight, then load up your crap, turn on the AC/stereo and drive home like nothing ever happened. I love that car and would surely buy another. Good Luck Chris

Well... Sometimes it's OK in my neighborhood.........

3 leaks so far, first rms, second variable cam and third oil separator.

I am not too familar with a area underneath the P-car. What is VarioCam? I notice oil sludge buildup around that area, pertaining to where the exhaust bolts on? Is that normal? I don't have any oil buildup in the middle of the car.

Are those radii? or are those diffs to the exact circle? 2 numbers are close 10.15 and 10.16, but the others (10.02, 9.92) are far off. In any case, they replaced the seal. OK... what was wrong w/ it? Was just a bad seal (doubtful)? did they use a different type of seal? any reason the new seal will not start leaking at some point? my questions really lead to the cause; if the cause was not fixed, the problem was not fixed.