67 captured repliesDiscussion pagination complete · Source accounts, not a confirmed diagnosis
THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHDon't put your Porsche away for the winter...
Leading reported evidence
Replace oil
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Leading evidence: 'Replace oil' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'exceeds yours or mine' (1 discussions; 0 report identifying it and 1 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Replace oil' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
Source reports, not a diagnosis or a success probability. Counts refer to discussions and can overlap.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I keep it very clean and wash a lot...but I use the hell out of it.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
All I know is that over the years, and I have a few of those, every Porsche service manager I ever talked to has told me they see more problems with the garage queens then the cars that are used more.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that suspect a cause
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suspected cause
Excellence magazine, for example, must repeat a half dozen times a year that the most trouble free Porsches are driven 7,000 to 9,000 per year, based on THEIR anecdotal evidence, which I suspect exceeds yours or mine.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
All I know is that over the years, and I have a few of those, every Porsche service manager I ever talked to has told me they see more problems with the garage queens then the cars that are used more.
These are separate views of the same evidence. Frequency alone does not establish a fix, and these counts must not be added together.
exceeds yours or mine
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Identified cause
1
Suspected cause
0
Reported fixes
Read evidence and context
Discussions that suspect a cause
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suspected cause
Excellence magazine, for example, must repeat a half dozen times a year that the most trouble free Porsches are driven 7,000 to 9,000 per year, based on THEIR anecdotal evidence, which I suspect exceeds yours or mine.
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
67 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
0 evidence records excluded for query context · 0 excluded by outcome qualification · 0 adjusted by outcome qualification.
0 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
Generation: 20261026T174436Z · outcome-qualification-6. Deterministic extraction; no AI model inference. How we use sources
As the temp. reached a high of 40 F today, I decided to drive a 50 mile loop in Southern Maine on back 2 lane roads avoiding any major highways along the way. My C2 was spotless when I left (so I was hesitant to drive my car) my garage, but I needed to enjoy my Porsche regardless of the salty , sandy, wet back road conditions. I don't recall having a better time shifting up and down the gears while listening to the wonderfull engine and exhaust sounds especially above 4k rpm. What a great cornering car to drive, and the stock brakes are fantastic. Even though my once black Porsche is filthy with road grime and dirt, I can finally say it doesn't kill me to see my car so dirty. I think I'm beginning to understand why so many Europeans use their Porsches as DD. Those on this forum that have advised year round usage have the right idea.Just thought I'd share a positve 996 post.
Your car will develop more issues if you don't drive it than if you used it as intended. The garage queens always have issues in their engines/drivetranes that crop up from lack of use.
Get some winter tires and use that thing everyday. The salt and sludge you pick up won't hurt anything as long as you wash it when wheather permits. It won't rust out or anything like that. Your car will love you for it and you'll be a happier person.
Too late - car went away for the winter today.
I disagree on cars having more problems if stored over the winter and would challenge you to produce data to support your assertion.
A properly stored car can handle three months away without an issue.
A stored car will have few scratches, less rust and be easier to maintain in good condition.
I will, but it will feel so much better in the Spring when I drive it for the first time.
Believe me, I would love to drive the car over the winter, but if you were to see the piles of salt all over our local roads right now you would understand why we don't drive our cars in winter.... paint chips and scratches, rusted bolts, salt in every nook and cranny. I don't think so.
I can control myself enough to wait a few months to play again.
I was amused that a Californian would have the courage to lecture guys in the Winter States about off-season storage of their cars.
I lived in Michigan for many years, so I'm not a snow-noob.
Garage queens go bad simply from non-use. Oil starts going bad, seals dry up, all the oil eventually drains to the bottom and normally lubricated parts go dry, and any time you have two surfaces touching for extended periods of time, they tend to stick together. The issues that crop up will manifest themselves in all sorts of ways, usually leaks.
I don't have an official study showing garage queens vs daily drivers, but I have plenty of anecdotal evidence and common sense gathered over many years.
"Believe me, I would love to drive the car over the winter, but if you were to see the piles of salt all over our local roads right now you would understand why we don't drive our cars in winter.... paint chips and scratches, rusted"
bollocks! bollacks! or whatever it is....
if it wern't for the damn rocks the sanders spread over the roads I'd have something better to say.
I understand Wellard - from where you live - but I love to drive all winter - I just don't take it out in the snow simply b/c what's the point, that's what my Quattro is for.
I took it out last weekend for a 300 mile round trip and today for another 50 miles - excellent driving in the cold air -it's like an upper for the car - they thrive on that dry cold air and the exhaust sound is soooo much crisper.
Down on LI, when we do get snow, I leave it in the garage until fully melted, and then out she comes - usually no more than 2 weeks max. I think where you are, once the snow hits, it (and all the salt and sludge) stays with you for the rest of the season.
Yeah, right - I wish. When they're they're putting piles of salt 2-3 inches deep all over the roads, that stuff doesn't clear until early march.
I drive my car until they put salt down, then it's done. We had snow flurries on and off all week (mixed with rain) and consequently they put down enough salt for an Alaskan winter... they really are idiots. Mild salt, okay, but when they leave piles of salt all over the roads, it's just going too far. They should use sand.
Well, you're missing the point of good storage and maintenance. I spent the day lubing the seals and the leather, etc. The oil was changed two weeks ago. The tires get over inflated.
When the car comes out, then you just take it easy for the first few miles until everything bets lubed up again. Common sense really.
If you follow simple rules of storage and good maintenance, then the car is fine.
To say that you get engine failure by storing over the Winter is absolute BS. My car has been Winter stored by each of it's owners and has never had an issue.
Really? Until you can back up your comments with data, then at best it's opinion and at worst BS.
You choose, but either way it's still unproven speculation.
Oscar Wilde said, "To generalize is to be an idiot". Generalizing that all cars that are stored will have problems, without knowledge of their maintenance schedule is idiocy.
If your hypothesis were correct, then every Ferrari ever made would be spontaneously exploding.
I was thinking of not driving my car this winter but then I remembered that we do not get snow... If we do get an inch or 2 then no one in the state will be on the roads anyways... I think the high today was in the high 50's.... cant wait for spring....
Well then why on earth are you taking precautions when storing your car?
Do you do these things because you know that storing your car for extended periods can cause problems, or is it just for your health?
You take the precautions to prevent issues - in the same way that you allow your doctor bend you over and give you an inspection. If you don't do preventative maintenance, then you may shorten your (or your car's) life. This comment is irrespective of how you use or store your car.
Regardless of how you use your car you should be doing preventative maintenance and lubrication several times a year.
One of my thorough workovers coincides with the car going away, it doens't mean that it's not also getting routine work in other seasons. How often do you lube your seals? I do mine at least 4 times a year - not bad for a car that's driven less than 5000 miles between state inspections.
Being a material scientist I could tell you the exact reason for lubing seals and hoses and their mechanism of degradation. I'm sure that many people don't look after those components as well as they should, regardless of where they live, or if they store their cars.
I don't store my car in the winter, but I don't drive it during snow storms, either. I'm not sure I understand either camp--I'm not going to take it out in ten inches of snow and ice, but that's really only a handful of days during the winter. The rest of the time the streets and highways are clear and dry and there simply isn't an issue of being out on the road.
Wayne, I didn't know you were a member of the "Not my Porsche in the Winter Club!!" Tim, now let's be evenhanded here, and let him have it good! After all the crap he's given me about not driving mine!!! Come to think of it, you've given me more crap than Wayne has!!
What area of mat. sci are you involved with? I'm a polymer guy.
I do all of my seals and vinyl with armorall - it's good for both vinyl and rubber... do the door, trunk, engine compartment, window - add the plasticizer back in there and keep them flexible. I also do all the interior plastic surfaces with the same stuff.
Once a year I also do all of the hoses that I can get access to - gives them a nice shine and helps keep them flexible and stops them from drying out.
I do the tires with an Armorol tire shine product.
I use Lexol on the leather, it's a great product.
Hey, I've always admitted to being a fair-weather driver, but at least I do close to 5000 miles a year - and I do them beyond the confines of my driveway.
My car is a big-time garage queen.
Optical materials, thin films, and some semiconductors.
I was persuaded to try 303 aerospace treatment by somebody here.. have yet to try it though. I have lots and lots of Armorall left over.
Armorall has served me well for years - it's basically plasticizer, UV stabilizer and not much else. I'd be interested to know if there's a better product out there... although, I'm a big believer in sticking with something when I know it works.
I'm in polymer design - I've worked in areas as diverse electronic materials and paint. I spent a lot of time early in my career designing materials for lithography, displays and sensors. Where a polymer meets an interface you'll find me doing research.
Yeah, I know. I wish. If we get some good salt free days, then the car will come out again, but otherwise it gets to sleep for a 8 weeks or so... not long when you think about it. I usually have it back on the road by the 2nd week of March.
Wait a minute....you can't pull the wool over my eyes.......you've already put the car away and it'll be on the road again in the second week of March. That might be 8 weeks in the UK, but in this country that's more like 12 weeks! Caught you, you trickster!
All I know is that over the years, and I have a few of those, every Porsche service manager I ever talked to has told me they see more problems with the garage queens then the cars that are used more. I know that is not hard data, but it does seem to be a very common refrain here. These cars are meant to be driven and storing them for the winter just seems to be a total waste of a good car. I would not try to drive it in a raging snow storm, but then again I don't go hiding from a little bit of snow.
As for salt, so what? Any recent model is more than capable of standing up to salt. Stone chips are a concern, but driving more than makes up for that.
Hey Phil.... what he said ^!!!!!
I knew Wayne didn't drive his car last winter. However, he does drive it 8 to 9 months per year rather than 8 to 9 DAYS per year like someone on this forum does!
I guess you had better schedule another appointment with your therapist. He recently told me he wants to get a Carrera GT as a stable mate for his Turbo.
I have stored my old 86 911 every winter for the 12 years I have owned it, the car runs great and leaks no more oil than a normal 3.2
That said, life is to damn short to not drive a Porsche for the 4 months or so of winter, f it's decent out the 996 is going for a ride! Nothing will happen a little water wont cure.
I'm rethinking my position - I love to post, don't drive much, but really don't want to sell the car. Maybe I can turn the odometer
forward
and fool myself into thinking I'm really driving and enjoying it.
Don't do it! We moved from CA to MA and experienced a HUGE improvement in quality (and cost) of living.
It's not worth it for the sake of driving the p-car all year.
LOL - I just sprung for a set of wheels and Pirelli 240's because I realized I can't park my 04 996. Funny thing is that when I dug for all ther records I found that the car originated from, of all places, Alaska! Based on registration info it looks like it spent a little over it's first year their before the original owner transferred it to Virginia. So, I guess my baby has most likely seen it's share of winter roads and driving, and with no rust or corrossion visible, I think she'll be okay.
To drive or not to drive is certainly a personal preference, I truly intended to garage the 996 over the winter, but again, I just can't bring myself to go with out it on a daily basis.
Would challenge you to supply data to the contrary. Sauce for the goose.
Seriously, this is an individual issue, and there is no way around the 'cost', no matter what you do. A regularly driven Porsche will have fewer mechanical problems but, yes, may suffer from the elements. A winter stored car will cosmetically last longer, but is more likely to develop problems especially having to do with engine and body seals, and electricals. A regularly driven car will cost less per mile to operate. A stored car will depreciate more slowly during its middle years. On and on. There is no 'smartest' way to handle this question, and I guarantee you there is no cheapest way. Only the way that's right for you.
Some guys are happier having an immaculate, ageless car in the garage. That used to be me. Some guys are happier being behind the wheel as much as possible. That's me now. And when it comes to a toy like this, that's the bottom line. It's ridiculous to treat these things as investments. They are far from that.
I don't need to, as I'm not the one making baseless claims. It's that simple. Making general claims that are one-size-fits-all is dumb.
Back it up with data, or shut up.
Just because a car is driven a certain way has no connection to it's maintenance schedule or routine. It really is THAT simple. A well maintained car will last and be trouble free, regardless of how it is driven.
Ever the bully.
The point is, there is no "data" to support either point of view, and there is a simple-minded binary presumption in your question that one is right and one is wrong. There is only anecdotal evidence, the preponderance of which supports the view that for most cars, most of the time, being underdriven leads to problems. Excellence magazine, for example, must repeat a half dozen times a year that the most trouble free Porsches are driven 7,000 to 9,000 per year, based on THEIR anecdotal evidence, which I suspect exceeds yours or mine. Even in your tidy world of science, anecdotal evidence, in the absence of any other kind, has value. And bleating "prove it" without being willing to do the same sounds like something out of The Crucible.
Now your last statement, "... regardless of how it is driven," THAT needs some substantiation. Because I could have engineers and mechanics lined up around the block to swear on a stack of whatever you hold sacred that it is, indeed, possible to drive a car in such a way that its durability will be compromised regardless of how well it's maintained.
..and you are missing the point so far as to be on a different planet.
The point being that well maintained cars will be more trouble free than badly maintained cars. I am asserting that no generalization is accurate.
To assert that cars stored over the winter will have fewer problems is incorrect.
To assert that cars driven over the winter will have fewer problems is incorrect.
The reason both statements are incorrect is that both cases do not provide the specifics on how they are maintained.
Anecdotal evidence is ALWAYS worthless unless backed up with data because it is by definition based upon hearsay, limited experience and perception.
I refer you to the following definitions:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/anecdotal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
To assert the truth and generalize without data then claim the moral high ground is arrogant to say the least.
I am not claiming anything other than the common sense that well maintained cars are more reliable. That statement can also be wrong, but more often than not it is generally correct.
Don't pick on science dude, by definition it is the quest for and the foundation of all truth. There is never anything wrong with having data, it is absolute.
That is possibly the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on the internet. Anecdotal evidence forms the basis of much of science, most of law, and 100% of all empirical hypotheses. It is less certain than empirical evidence, but that doesn't mean it has no value. Only that it has less. This kind of shoot-from-the-hip temperamental balderdash is the reason you are the only user here that has made me unsubscribe from a thread. Several times.
Geez.
Driving the car all winter (for me) other than in salt-city days (white road...no snow if you will), and deep stuff over 3.8", is way better for the car than parking it all winter.
Why you ask?
If I like something, I am more willing to pull out the credit car to protect it...just me. If I park it all winter...it loses something for me.
Just my brain....not saying anyone else needs apply. The things drop in value like fishing weights in water, so if you are saving it up, you have to ask why...to make the next guy pay 5% more....
I'd rather be the one to smile as the value drops.
That being said...I don't take it out in very deep stuff (spoiler is not a snow plow) or bad, bad salt....
This argument cannot be solved. Let everyone be happy.
Our white coffee pots always have that brown stain...my shoes get used, and my tires get replaced. Life passes, things wear out, and I consider a car a POS investment-wise.... I keep it very clean and wash a lot...but I use the hell out of it.
My snow tires are V rated you know. ;-)
JB
Drove to the club yesterday. 12" of snow on the ground. Pulled in and counted three (four including mine) 911's in the lot. One hard top cab and 2 coupes. Gotta love Minnesota in winter.
I think it all comes down to how much you want to drive your 911. Driving it on cold clear winter days will certainly do no harm to it, unless you hit a tree that wasn't there in the summer! Storing it in the garage all winter will keep it in better shape, just by keeping it out of harm's way. Not as fun, of course, and it MAY cause faster seal drying and leaks. Maybe not.
Then again, how long are we planning on keeping our cars? If forever is the answer, maybe keeping it indoors during harsh winter months is best. If "maybe 3 or 4 years" is the answer, it doesn't make sense to not drive it a full year out of that time period, right?
Dumb question, but why wouldn't you drive your car in the winter? Nice cold dense air, more bang for the buck. The only thing I can think of is the stuff they put on the roads to help melt the snow and ice. But most of us have more than one car, so just drive the other until the roads are clear.
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
