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YOUR RESEARCHRefresh my memory... what's with the 996 hatred?
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Use proper grammar and sound logic
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Furthermore, you used proper grammar and sound logic.
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Suggestion
From a company stand-point, how boring is it to just make the same thing over and over again with minor changes every now and then?
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Suggestion
The 996 replaced the holy grail of all vehicles, the 993 and it was as if someone had replaced Jesus Christ.
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Suggestion · Original poster
Reading an article in Motor Trend while waiting for an oil change on the company car.
Replace were not generous, although there are comments
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Suggestion
With the exception of the headlights, the exterior changes were not generous, although there are comments that it looks more like a 993 than its predecessor.
Replace were not generous, although there are comments
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Suggestion
With the exception of the headlights, the exterior changes were not generous, although there are comments that it looks more like a 993 than its predecessor.
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Suggestion
Nowhere in your response did you insult someone else, use profanity, or insist that your opinion is actually fact and everyone else has no idea what they are talking about; nor was your response dripping in sarcasm that made it difficult to tell whether your response was insulting or tongue in cheek.
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Reading an article in Motor Trend while waiting for an oil change on the company car. Corvette vs Porsche. Basic premise was the Corvette will kill you if it's cold and wet and you'll be happy in the Porsche.
However, the editor did take the time to say he'd never been disappointed with a Porsche launch except 1998.
What is it exactly?
There are some old fashioned porsche purists think 1998 was sucky time for Porsche because they went from a niche sports car builder of air cooled machines to a volume producer of water cooled machines - that had a much more 'volume car' build feel to it.
It made Porsche into one of the most profitable car companies in the world - but they don't really care about that. Oh well who cares, they miss out and will never know.
People like to have a reason to complain?
The 996 was the first watercooled 911.
Remember when "New Coke" came out in the 80s? People actually preferred the new recipe in blind taste tests, but it was a miserable failure because Coca Cola strayed from what was familiar and "historic" for people.
I am kind of glad the 996 haters exist. It drove the price down to the point where we could all get a world class sports car for not that much money, and now that everyone is realizing how great of a car it really is the price is going back up. A good friend of mine who has owned many p cars but never a 996, drove mine the other day and was very impressed. Now I think his opinion of the 996 is much different than before.
"Now, to put a water-cooled engine in the rear and to have a radiator in the front, that's not very intelligent." -Ferry Porsche (PANO, Oct. '73)
Be that as it may, we just had a similar discussion about the 993 and those that get it and those that don't. Same is true for the 996/997/991.
Wait a minute, that wasn't
all
I meant to say....
Last month's GT Porsche magazine had an article entitled, "Six Appeal:"
Six Appeal
Misunderstood, harshly treated and ignored by many, the 996 Carrera has had a tough life. Which comes as a shock when you consider how many great 911s it fathered. Here�s our guide to them all.
Article goes on to say that every previous model was hated by the haters because of what was changed, or what wasn't.
That said, I also noted that in their comparison of the 911 to what's come before, they neglected the 996. They included a 964, mind you:
History Repeating
The 991�s toughest test is, perhaps, to see how it stands up against its forbearers, so we pitch it against a G-Series Club Sport, 964, 993 and 997 Carrera to see just how far the 911 has come.
Hrumf. I dig my car. +1 on the price point argument.
That's debatable. It did do better in blind taste tests before it was released.
Also, Pepsi wasn't lying when they said more people preferred it to (original) Coke when they did the Pepsi Challenge; not to mention the fact that they were actually starting to outsell Coke in grocery stores. Coke management needed to do something...which is why some people tease that New Coke wasn't as much a marketing blunder as it was a success at bringing people back to the brand.
But it didn't matter. Coke was part of Americana...as American as apple pie. Changing it was offensive to the American public and that's what brought it back...not that it stunk.
Only, in this case, Porsche didn't bring back its "Classic 911" and "New 911" outsold (and outperformed) "Classic 911" in every possible way except perhaps the door thunk.
-Eric
Headlights. It's all about the headlights.
The 996 was the transition model between the traditional no frills air cooled sports car to a more modern GT-ish, water cooled car. This concept was further refined with the 997, and we are in full on luxury GT with the 991. Don't get me wrong, each version get faster, more comfortable, and handles better. But it also gets a little less fun IMO.
I personally like the 996 because it has just enough conveniences to make it livable in the modern world, but still leans more toward the sports car roots.
Every sports car gets a little more comfy, unless you are talking about the stripped out cars like the GT3 RS etc. I didnt want the 996 for its sports car capability, because I am not going to track it, I wanted it to be a comfy cruiser and daily driver. Which its very good at.
I am happy with the best of both worlds. A sports car that feels stiff, solid and responsive with a nice noise (thank you GHL), no digital nanny supervision, and yet all the comforts one could want. Heated seats, leather, and climate control. The occasional compliment. And it starts when you turn the key.
I guess there are always those who will hate that.
This is exactly why I ended up with a 996, even though when I started my search I was dead-set on a 964. The more I thought about how I would be using the car (daily driving through all seasons, long trips, the occasional track day, the wife would be driving it too) the more the 996 made sense.
And frankly, I kinda LIKE the headlights, damnit!
Actually, now that I think about it, this exact scenario happens all the time with the air- and water-cooled Volkswagen guys.
The air cooled guys hate the watercooled cars, yet all the water cooled guys love the air cooled cars AND the water cooled cars.
You are on to something Capt. I was a member of the Mercedes Club for many years, and it never ceased to amaze me what many of the speakers we booked for Tech Sessions would say. These guys always had their specialty which, in the case of MBs, was a particular era of production. All of them would declare, early in their presentation, that they specialized in pontoon fendered sedans or pagoda roofed SLs because everything made since then was crap. It was quite polarizing for our membership.
I think Porsche Club members are much better informed, and more rational in their relationship to the marque, and have chosen a better car upon which to to lavish attention, but you still have a couple folks that can't get over their first moment of infatuation with a model or type.
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Forgive me if I am a bit harsh, but what the purists want from Porsche is just to build the same car over and over again. From a company stand-point, how boring is it to just make the same thing over and over again with minor changes every now and then? At some point, a big jump was inevitable. Coming to think of it, most sportscar companies have had revamps now and then. The 996 still has the characteristics of a 911 - the curves, balance, sporty feel etc. The purists still want to sit in the 80s n 90s, whereas Porsche wanted to make a machine that was quite modern, yet had the basic elements of the classic 911. Tastes change with time. Personally, I feel the one big mistake they did with the 996 was to make the Boxster very similar in looks..
The vintage SAAB community is very similar.
Many of the old timers don't even consider the 900 a real SAAB let alone another produced under GM's ownership -- to them, real "SAABs" were double digit cars: 92, 93, 94/Sonett, 95, 96, 97/Sonett and 99 and maybe even the 90.
Then, of course, there are folks who swore off of Saab once GM bought them outright (i.e., all post C900 Saabs are off limits). The pre-GM 9000 even pushes some people too far.
But any new Saab people seem to love everything Saab whether old or new.
What did the 356 crowd say when the 911 was on the drawing board and first released? Did they react to the 911 like the "air cooled purists" did toward the 996?
-Eric
Beauty is highly subjective and every iteration of 911 has had its own set of problems regardless of whether anyone wants to acknowledge them.
Personally, I find the 996 to be beautiful and IMS/RMS issues to be largely exaggerated; not to mention that there are "fixes" available in the aftermarket.
-Eric
They sure did, with pitchforks and torches. They saw the 911 as too soft, a grand touring car, and too easy to drive. Plus ca change.
You heard it here, first: This will never affect market values, because markets aren't rational. But the 996 was an extremely important Porsche, historically speaking. It saved the company, for one thing. And it assured the survival of the rear-engine 2+2 formula at Porsche, which was by no means certain inside the company.
I think Pinky Lai did a nice job, and it's improving as time goes on. Meanwhile, it goes like stink, is still pretty simple by comparison to the newest ones, still offers the performance benefits of rear wheel drive without the vices, and costs Honda money. They should give it a Nobel
The other nice thing about the 996,besides actual cold air coming out of the dash in the summer,is that when you have a passenger in the car it doesn't look like you're sitting in each other's lap.
Hmm...except the early 997s had the same IMS problem, potentially.
And the car wasn't radically redesigned in terms of looks from 996 to 997, specifically if you look at a 996 4S, which essentially shares the wider hips of the 997. With the exception of the headlights, the exterior changes were not generous, although there are comments that it looks more like a 993 than its predecessor.
So, I'm unfortunately going to have to completely disagree with that statement.
Eric, I took the Pepsi Challenge. As in, I was approached by a salesperson in a wooden box-like thing outside of a supermarket with a Pepsi shirt and I drank from both cups, blindfolded. I liked Pepsi better as well, and then went on never to drink soda.
I always laugh real hard when people say it is ugly. The funny part is all the 911's from 993 to 991 all look very similar. In fact I very often have people approach me and ask is that new!
The differences are subtle, the 911 is an evolution. To say the 996 (especailly MKII) are ugly means you think at least the majority of your Porsche is ugly to. I think the MK11 headlights were a step in the right direction. I love cars, not just porsches.
"Personally, I feel the one big mistake they did with the 996 was to make the Boxster very similar in looks.."
If all the previous mentioned diatribe is correct, why do most 911 owners give the Boxster such a hard time???
Probably because most of you think its a lesser variant of the Porsche lineup and wouldn't give it house (garage) room ...... 996 owners can be just as snobbish (997 owners even more so) as the air cooled brigade is towards the water coold cars.
A pity really, because at current pricing its an even bigger bargain than the 996.
Let's be honest. I don't think there is such a thing as an ugly 2 door Porsche no matter the model or generation. Look at my avatar. Can anyone truly call that fat bottomed girl ugly?
Each generation of the 911 has brought something unique and innovative to the table. Even the 991. I'm just not sure what that is yet.
Come on guys.....a pcar is a pcar. I have had a '67 911 a 914 and a '86 Carrera. The 86 reminded me of all things Porsche when I was growing up. The 996 is more refined than any of them. The 67 was crazy rough and loose, the 914 was a gokart and the 86 yet looked sweet was a dog compared to the 996. BTW I wear lederhosen and my farts smell like the Bavarian wind.
and the 996 owners that look down on Boxsters really start to cry when they find out the very large amount of parts and body work shared, especially with the Boxster S.
I will wave at any Pcar. even Cayenne's and panamera's if they show interest. I'll give the nod to any cool car regardless of age or marquee. I love the pricing dip of the 996, that how i got mine ;-)
If you believe the consensus on the 993 and 997 forums, the 996 is actually a rebadged vehicle built by Kia that instead of having race bred lineage out of Germany, is the product of a drunken romp between GM's light truck division and Hyundai's performance division out of Korea.
Mark
I guess that's why, despite costing more than comparable 993s, Porsche sold more 996es than 993s; and while Porsche whisked the 993 away from the public to save the company from bankruptcy after only 5 years they continued selling the 996 for 7.
I remember reading a story back in the 90's, I don't know if it's true. It said when they did the 996/Boxster they brought in some Japanese experts. The Porsche engine assembly area was full of benches with a lot of shelves above them. The fitters would rummage through the shelves until they found parts that would fit other parts, machine them a little if needed, and assemble an engine.
The expert came in with a power saw and cut down all the shelves and said "from now on you will make parts that fit in the first place".
I do not remember the source and do not know if it's true
Partly true, partly apocryphal. The 996/986 introduced automation to some of the chassis production process, so Porsche brought Toyota in to shorten the learning curve (Toyota's production engineering is the best in the world). I have a vague memory that they also did some component engineering, too... the AC, maybe. The engines, however, were still hand built on a bench.
A few years back, someone on this board visited the plant, and was delighted to discover that a lot of 996s were signed by assemblers, inside a rear fender, IIRC. For Porsche, this series was very 'mass produced,' but by most automotive standards it was still pretty old-school.
Very funny, Bruce. Sadly, it is true. I spent a bunch getting mine fixed last year. AC is not an option down here. Lol.
I don't know what the big stink is here. I love every single model ever made by Porsche. Sure, the 993 is my personal favorite, but there isn't a single model that I wouldn't be proud of, and I could never call one of them ugly. Some of their owners, that's an entirely different story.
That is an absolutely unacceptable internet argument answer, fine sir. Nowhere in your response did you insult someone else, use profanity, or insist that your opinion is actually fact and everyone else has no idea what they are talking about; nor was your response dripping in sarcasm that made it difficult to tell whether your response was insulting or tongue in cheek.
Furthermore, you used proper grammar and sound logic.
Please restate your last response to follow proper internet forum protocol.
I made a joke and it's as if I insulted their morel character. I don't get it, but whatever. You can call me a hater or a no-nothing (you�d be very wrong), but I'm not going to get in someone�s grill over a personal opinion. Not my favorite Porsche. Moving on.
Capt. Obvious - oh, dear. Lol. And i ain't no sir. That better? I know, lots of folks think my nick means something else. It's actually a nick for my first name, "Bonni". Now go fetch me a beer.
That and I was remembering the 993 Turbo I encountered outside of San Antonio last Summer at a gas station with the rear deck open letting it cool down.
Oh, you are somewhat new here, so I will let it slide this time, BUT... everybody knows that the Blue Iris Metallic on Seal Grey Sport seats and Cup rims from March of 1995 is far superior to any other. Fact.
Neotorque - gold star for you! Lol.
Eric - since the doc put me on these new meds, ha! And, since I have an opinion today (lol), I could not agree more with the Porsche in the garage comment. All of our cars are the best cars!
It just amazes me that right now there is a beautiful '99 aerokit with 28,xxx miles that could be had from fleabay for 25k, and probably less if someboady made an offer. I am half-tempted to buy a garage mate for my '99!
Do it! Nothing better than having to choose which one you should drive for the day, and driving one every day. If it is the hater's who made it possible to own two, then I guess I love the haters.
John is so very right! I am looking for a 1995 Adventurine Green to keep "Blupurr" company. Why not? I have no kids so I might as well spend it while I am still around. Beats putting a kid through college any day.
I'm not so sure you can get it for less.
This is the car's 3rd time around (that I know of) on ebay. The first time it showed one bid at the starting price of $25,000 which didn't meet the reserve. The auction ended that way.
The second time around there were no bids.
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