is 996 a bad track car?

I recently purschased a 1999 996 coupe for use as a DE track car. I chose this car because of it's driving habits and the fact that many of them appear at track events. anyway, the motor suffered a broken cam chain over the weekend and may have damaged the valves on the right side of the motor. motor has 53k miles. after this happened, several mechanics gave me the "duh, what did you expect?" response. apparently, in their opinions, the 996 was never intended for track use. they attribute much of this to the lack of a dry sump. they claim that the GT3 is the only street car that can be tracked. it appears that my only option is to replace the 3.4L motor which may lead me down the same path. does anyone else share these opinions? i am left wondering about all the other 996's i have seen at track days. any input or suggestions is appreciated.

A lot of people say "duh, what did you think?" to appear smarter than they are. Is the GT3 the only street car you see tracked? You will find many people here tracking any 911. examples coming up:............

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thanks. i am sick of these porsche shops that are more than eager to sell the gt3 seats, suede take off wheel, roll bar, slicks, lightweight wheels, etc. but seem to forget that the 996 is an "inferior track car" until you limp in on 3 cylinders. what the hell do they think i'm planning to do with the car? i understand the profit motive, but what about customer retention? i hope to see more examples.

Huh? What in the world are you guys talking about?? Inferior track car? Compared to what??

Bought my 996 new in '01. Been tracking it since spring of '02. 93 days on the track so far. It doesn't even burn oil.

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I was under the impression that you broke a water line and continued running the car until you cooked the engine. BTW, the shop that you're referring to also built my 996 which didn't miss a race because of an engine problem in 4 years of club racing.

I confess, my 996 is not as good a track car as a Ferrari F430 Challenge for instance. It would be truly insane to drive a 996 around a track, it might fall to pieces or even self ignite. And all those people driving sedans (BMW) around tracks must be really insane, what are they thinking? So if you have a 996 it's much better to buy expensive new suspension, seats, tires etc and just be a poser. I just have some more track days I have to do since I already booked and paid for them but then I'll stop and become a poser.

How do these guys come up with this crap. A porsche without a dry sump does not = broken cam chain Really sorry to hear about your car.

Hi Jim, Your shop isn't the only one I'm referring to. I've also talked to 3 or 4 other shops to get more opinions. Your experience and your car came to mind as I was being told that the 996 is not intended for a track. Does your 3.6L have a dry sump? If not, do you run a higher oil level?

oh and the water line broke once Bob V found some wetness around the nipple. when he touched the water line, the fitting shattered. it was a coincidence, not the cause. the temps had been normal. the techs at Maplewood ran the fault codes and suggested that the chain broke, throwing of the cam position and damaging the valves.

No dry sumps on any 996s short of the GT3. I don't think oil starvation had anything to do with your timing chain breaking but who knows. My 3.4 did not have an oiling kit but my 3.6 does. You don't want to add extra oil. It will puke it up through the intake. Ask me how I know. The problem with a used car is that you have no idea how it's been maintained. How often the oil was changed. If it was run low on oil, etc. I was really sorry to see your problem. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help. Jim

Jim... once again you are spot on.... I am sick and tired of hearing " I went to the track and my 996 broke "(fill in the blank)". If you are taking your 996 to the track you had better be prepared to fix what breaks when it breaks..... and something will break.. So far I have had the oil separator go causing the car to smoke like a crop dusterand oil down the track (this made me real popular), blown the gear box to pieces, and many more issues that have cost me track time, cut my weekend short, or required a tow home..... I've fixed the tow home issue and purchased an enclosed trailer today... now when something breaks I'll push her into the trailer and drive myself home.... Let's be honest... when you push anything mechanical to it's limits it will break. Stepping off soapbox... flame suit on....

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There's certainly some truth in that but in all fairness, I think you've missed the point. While he's obviously bummed that it broke (who wouldn't be), it could've simply been bad luck. Who knows? But I don't think that's so much the issue. He's trying to determine what to do with the car - sell it, rebuild it, upgrade it, whatever. While trying to understand his options, he talked to several PCA members and contacted a number of respected shops around the country. In doing so, what he heard came as a bit of surprise - and is certainly news to me as well. A couple of these very well respected shops told him that the 996 essentially wasn't a good choice as it wasn't designed for any type of track use, even for a relative novice to DEs (no record lap times are being threatened here). If you were told that, what would be your response? Wouldn't that raise some larger questions with you as well? As such, he came here to have an honest discussion about the topic before he spends thousands of dollars. It's a discussion that I'm very curious to hear some objective answers to as well.

J-RAD, I think you got your question answered : https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and-drivers-education-forum/376255-the-996-is-a-poor-track-car.html

yes, compared to GT3, a 996c2 c4s is not "intended" to be tracked. but that does't mean it's a bad track car. compared to 90% of the cars out there, it's an incredible track toy.

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How so?

J-Rad, 996TT are dry sump, but Porsche dont want them tracked because of lacking a scavenge pump... youre 99 has the same pump as the 02... Heres something from the PCA website.. http://www.pca.org/tech/tech_qa_question.asp?id={6AAD8903-6A72-40F4-9A1F-9D021DD24DB2} http://www.pca.org/tech/tech_qa_question.asp?id={DB922557-0C0E-4365-8281-BB1F1E524ECC} I think you just had a case of bad luck... I track my 00 and its supercharged... if the engine blows, my mechanic will blame it on the supercharger even though there hasnt been a case of engine detonation (that know of) yet... My mechanic are hard core air cooled purist and rags on the watercooled engines... even though it has been totally reliable, they still arent conviced that Porsche has turned for the better... Funny, Porsche thinks there heading in the right direction.

It's been awhile since I hung around race tracks, but it seems to me that tracking an eight year old used car, perhaps with an uncertain history, comes with risks no matter who made it. In any case, as I recall, if you're going to track your car, you'd better be ready to spend money on it. Things break. AFAIK, these cars were built to race out of the box.

I just got back from a DE and Club Race weekend at Road America. The DE portion of this event contained the following cars; 1 Cayman S 5 986's 1 987 3 997's and 7 996's (one supercharged) All of these cars use variations of the same basic motor. That's a total of 17 cars with the M96 motor (no dry sump). I did not see or hear of a single engine failure on any of these cars this weekend. The schedule called for 3 days of DE with three to four 30 minute sessions per day. These cars were only in the DE group, there were many more M96 cars in the Club Racing group and many of those cars did an Enduro. If you were going to have an oil starvation problem, the carousel at RA (Very long constant radius corner) would be a perfect place to see this happen. However, I didn't hear of a single problem. Bottom line, your mechanics are idiots. There is no reason that you cannot operate your 996 at the track successfully. I am sorry about your car, but it does not sound like your failure had anything to do with the sump.

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Your question was if the 996 was a bad track car due to the lack of dry sump. The answer, if you read the comments, is, no it's not.

To get off the main subject slightly..... In lieu of a dry sump, has anyone installed an Accusump or similar? Basically a bladder-type accumulator that hold and releases some oil when the pump gulps air. Just good for a short time but generally, that's all you should need from a lateral G induced deficiency.

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Just to be clear, it's not my car that had the issue. It was waydeki's. Great links by the way. That is the kind of info I'm interested in tracking down. This particular incident actually occured at the RA event last weekend. I also wouldn't go so far as to say the mechanics are idiots. At least one of the shops he spoke to is pretty well respected at a national level, especially when it comes to track cars. Personally, my thought is that this may indeed just be an issue of bad luck but I have nothing concrete to base that on. I'm actually hoping for an answer that's more concrete (one way or the other) than "I think...". Maybe there isn't one (although redridge's links are potentially a step in the right direction). Yet, at the same time, people with significantly more knowledge of the car are potentially saying otherwise - that the 996 may be a problem. Again, these statements came from mulitple sources, not just one. However, when you see so many of these cars partipating in DE's such statements seem to go against conventional wisdom (and I've been doing DE's for several years). It just doesn't seem to me that the answer is you must have a Cup car to participate in DE's or never use stickier tires - that seems almost absurd (although that is basically what's being said as it relates to the 996). BTW, while the 986 and Cayman also have essentially the same motor, it's positioned in front of the rear axle. As a result, it's not at the end of the arm as with the 996/997 and in theory would be slightly less susceptible to oil starvation as a result, although it is still a potential concern. As an example, look at Brey-Krause's product for an extended sump. They decided to develop it for a reason, I'm sure. Just some more food for thought.

- It seems to me that if the engine suffered oil starvation, it would have been bearings or something else that would have failed rather than a cam chain. I would not expect that to be the first thing to go. - Since Porsche does make specific vehicles for track and racing, it doesn't take advanced intelligence to say that this engine was not intended for the track. But, you don't have to by a 917 just to go to the track. In fact, Porsche as much as any other marque, has a history of blending track and street vehicles. If we only used race-specific designs on the track, that would decimate SCCA and a host of other opportunities for racing--which do very well without race-specific designs. (And, in fact, you could arguue they are more reliable and safer because they are using vehicles & engines that have had more extensive testing than most race-specific programs could afford.) - **** happens. Sorry you lost your cam chain and it caused the resulting damage. Could have happened under any circumstances. Was it hastened by tracking? Maybe. Maybe not. On the other hand, it's an opportunity to mess about with your engine. There is little question, if you can't do your own engine and suspension work, tracking or racing will be more expensive for you....as, traditionally, it was only the genuinely wealthy that went racing and had others prep their cars. But, it does come as a shock when you feel you've had a budget in mind, then something happens to blow that away. Hence, the old addage, "Don't race what you can't roll and walk away from." ("walk away" as in send it to the junk yard and start over) - On a different note, I encourage you to find a different mechanic. Tracking has an inherent level of physical & financial risk. Who would be a better mechanic? Someone who is supportive and shares your enthusiasm? Or someone who wants to talk down to you and try to make you feel like an idiot? It doesn't seem like your current "support group" will make the best choices for you nor have the experience to really add any wisdom, knowledge, advice, tricks, etc.

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I asked about the Accusump and was told that it engages upon sensing low pressure, by which time the damage has been done. I understand and agree with the point that a used car is perhaps not the best candidate and any hobby of this nature come with an element of risk. Considering all that, I was still made to feel like a dummy for expecting the 996 to hold up at any level under track use. Seriously, the question hardly left my mouth before the mechanics were providing an answer. To quote a major Chicago area Porsche dealer who happened to be at Road America, "Road America takes out tons of 996's. The carousel is what really does them in. I have a customer who has blown three 3.4L motors on the carousel. he installed an accusump and claims that it ticks off everytime he's in the carousel." he went on to recommend a 997 3.8L upgrade or a "motorsport 3.4L with a modified oil pan. another highly respected Porsche shop quoted, "the 996 was never meant for track use. the cars came new with stickers that warned of putting stickier tires on the car for fear of added stress to the oil systems."

Well here I am, just joined the PCA-GGR and looking at DE'ing my '99 996 C2 2/3 times a year. I am not the original owner, the only real mod (non-aesthetic) has been made to the suspension, and the tyres are PS2's. Now that I have read this thread and I am very worried about running my car at any track. I understand that stuff happens and now that I am pushing the car to more upper limits during the event I can expect to have problems. But what I read is close to telling me "DON'T RACE IT!!!" So for someone like me that is new to owning a Porsche and wants to experience such a car on the track, am I now to abandon that ???

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How does this "expert" explain all of the success these cars have running in GAC, Club Racing, and DE's? (Please tell me these aren't the guys selling toy cars and T-shirts out of the dealer tents) If 996 motors are blowing in the Carousel why didn't it happen to all of the 996's running there last weekend (there were plenty at the event)? Bottom line, if you take this dealers word the track should have been littered with broken 996's last weekend. I was at the event mass failures did not happen. I have done roughly 5 track days at RA every year for the past 6 years and I have never witnessed mass 996 failures at any of these events. How do you explain that? Has this dealer torn down the motors he has seen fail to determine the cause (after all there are many different ways for a motor to fail)? It is my understanding that many dealers don't even open failed motors up (they just crate them and return them to Porsche as a core exchange). Have your experts done teardowns to determine the cause? There is a lot of evidence that your dealer is making bold claims that do not seem to hold true for all of these cars at the track.

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This is my point. The word of these "experts" seems silly when you look at how many of these cars see track use every weekend at tracks all around the country. I would bet that every weekend at various US race tracks hundreds of 996's are flogged about. Yet you just don't see an "RMS style" outrage of of consistent failure. How do you explain that?

The Porsche promo video "Everything We know So Far" on Coochas's site shows the "new" 996, being flogged around on a track by potential buyers. Is this different than all out racing? I guess. But aren't all Porsches designed to be used for driving fast - tested at the redline even before they are sold?

Im not even going to waste my breath, ****!!! I already did!

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Maybe you're being sarcastic, but I'll chime in with my 2 cents. Read what the others posted about 8 year old cars. Things can and do break. Unless you already have a TON of track experience, you wont be stressing the car hard enough to damage it assuming it's properly maintianed and excluding possible off-track excursions. A DE is not a "race". Don't confuse the two, they are completely different. Take it to the track and enjoy the experiences that you'll never have on the street.

My 2 cents. An improperly maintained car, no matter what car, should NOT have a timing chain let go. Proper maintainence would of NOT saved the timing chain. A chain can run longer than a friction bearing without oil. Think about it. Leave the "unknown history" out of a cars situation when the motor blows, these are clearly manufacturing faults. Come on, 53k miles.

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+1 most bad 996/986 engine are due to man. defects. does this make 996/986 engine a bad car for track? no.

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Nope I wasn't being sarcastic, just being cautious. I fully understand that things can break and I am prepared to accept that. Yep my first experience tracking the car and I just finished the GGR Ground School and fully understand that a DE is not a race and I have no plans on doing TT with my 996 C2. If I step up to TT I will have a different car all together or my current C2 will be a full-time track car. So I will not be pushing it to limits knowing the age of the car etc. I will maintain it and have it tech inspected prior to the start of the season. So thanks for chiming in because it does make me feel much more comfortable. I am looking forward to tracking the car.

Spec Boxster cars run wet sump M96 engines without mass destruction, but they do fit the BK "Deep Sump" kit.

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Hey Speed-Demon, I joined PCA-GGR to do DE/AX too. I found the other local Zone-7 PCA regions had more convenient events. Check out PCA-CDS (coastal driving school), they run at Laguna Seca a few times.... thats a fantastic track. I also went a few times with PCA-SVR (Sacramento Valley Region) at Infenion and Thunderhill. Perhaps i'll see you there one of these days :-)

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Cool I will look at the other regions. I will not be able to make it out this year, but next year I will be out a couple of times. I like Thunderhill so far, but being able to drive at other tracks such as Laguna Seca and Infenion is something I want to do for sure. BTW...if you do not recognize my car at any events, look for my number 666 See you at the track

Karl & Steven, why are you limiting your track days to PCA events? There are a lot of high quality clubs out there and their events are always full of P-cars. Check out the hotlinks on the Thunderhill calendar.

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Was simply making a point about assumed risk. You come on, it's racing. People who buy used cars are not entitled to expect them to be bulletproof. People who race are not entitled to expect nothing to break. Life is full of risks, no matter what lawyers being paid on contingency tell you.

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I am not attacking, didnt mean to come off the way I did, just tired of the reasons people think that cause of the engine failure is an ill-maintained engine all the time. He clearly stated that the timing chain failed. I dont care how careless a person is to a car, the timing chain should not fail........ I am going to ask my lawyer about that last statement.........that SOB lied

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I wasnt necessarily limiting to PCA. Thunderhill is a HUGE drive for me, so i wanted Laguna or Infineon, and Trackmasters had joint events with PCA regions for both of these, and had instructors who drove 911's too. Now i have a second son (6 months old) im not sure if i'll get to go this year or not.

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Thanks for saying. I've been known to come off terse myself the odd time To be frank, I don't know what causes a timing chain to break or what effect maintenance or driving habits would have on it. I was speaking in generalities, dangerous I know.

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Nope not limiting myself to just PCA, but I am limited on availability to do any events. So unfortunately I cannot fill-up the calendar with as many as I want too, so right now PCA-GGR fits in to my hectic life, but let me shop around and thanks for the info on hotlinks. FYI: just got back from being in Seattle for a week, leaving for Seattle again on Sunday for another week, then the following week I am off to L.A., this is all work related so no time to relax and go do anything on the weekends because I am dead to the world basically.

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you can set the accusump to discharge at any point you like. setting it to discharge at 2 bar would prevent damage. i agree with what others have said, your mechanics are idiots. i have been tracking my 996 for 3 years now. no oil starvation problems. i only JUST put an x51 oil pan baffle on it. my '99 is now at 99000 miles with 4~5000 track miles.

There is only one option, repair the motor AND add the motorsports kit ( scavenge pump, oil pan etc). At the very least, do the BK deep sump kit and don't worry about it. I tracked my 996 for years and never had any problems.

Karlooz, Are you still SC? if so how many miles are track time with it? TIA

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i just removed the SC unfortunately.... Smog check is due. I may just leave it off for a while. It's a whole different track experience. I once had gt3 performance, now i have a momentum car . I'd say i had 3000 track mile with the SC. I gotta admit, the car runs much cooler without the SC :O

Might not have been the timing chain. Early 996's had weak intermediate shafts. If that goes your timing chain comes off. How could a "fault code" distinguish between them? My intermediate shaft went at a DE. Was the first day at a new track and I was not pushing it. Bad things happen. Anything mechanical can fail. Aftermarket warranties can work.

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If you lose the intermediate shaft, you lose both banks. He lost one.