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YOUR RESEARCHQuestion for guys who have 'chipped'.
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What helped me quite a bit to launch the car somewhat smoother was to remove the clutch release spring (in a second stage I've replaced the spring with a very low rate spring).
Leading evidence: 'Replace spring' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, The most frequently discussed action is 'Replace spring' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Suggestion · Original poster
I just have this princess-and-the-pea thing, and I HATE not being smooth, and I HATE using the clutch to cover for it.
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Suggestion · Original poster
Launching in normal driving, there is an annoying little flat spot off idle that makes it very hard to be smooth without using a lot more clutch than I like.
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Replace spring
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
What helped me quite a bit to launch the car somewhat smoother was to remove the clutch release spring (in a second stage I've replaced the spring with a very low rate spring).
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion · Original poster
Launching in normal driving, there is an annoying little flat spot off idle that makes it very hard to be smooth without using a lot more clutch than I like.
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On the Bimmer, Dinan stage 1 mostly fixed it, hence my question.
I absolutely adore this car, and driving it is a complete pleasure. Except for one tiny thing: My car has e-gas. Launching in normal driving, there is an annoying little flat spot off idle that makes it very hard to be smooth without using a lot more clutch than I like. To a lesser extent, I find the same problem when I'm trying to blip the throttle for heel-and-toe. It's hard to 'feel'. All of this seems to be a bit more pronounced when the car's been city driven for several days and the DME has adapted.
So, my question: Do products like the GIAC flash specifically address this?
Background: The car has all the software updates, and it's been driven and pronounced a fine specimen by people with more Porsche experience. Nothing is 'wrong'. I just have this princess-and-the-pea thing, and I HATE not being smooth, and I HATE using the clutch to cover for it.
i have the giac flash + evoms intake and i do not notice any sort of flatspot. if i did have this unique characteristic as it does on your 911, i def would notice it.
i'm guessing other bone stock 911 cars don't have this flatspot either.
my c4s in the straight line is equal with an e39 M5.
Maybe I'm just more sensitive. I grew up on mechanical throttles, and was trained that smooth is fast. I heel and toe on every corner and every ramp, if that gives you some idea of my preferences.
Every post-99 996 I've driven has this issue. Of my previous three BMWs, the E36 coupes had nice throttle response out of the box, but the Z3 had the same problem, though to a lesser extent. It's written into the software, I believe, for emissions control reasons. On the Bimmer, Dinan stage 1 mostly fixed it, hence my question.
sir bruce, i am very sensitive to any sort of odd behaviors on my cars.
never had any sort of flatspotting issues on my s2000 which has razor sharp throttle response and the E46 M3 which is e-gas as well with insane throttle response better than any 911 i've driven.
No change, I just noticed it(flat spot) the other day crossing an intersection after stopping at a stop sign. I had just finished driving in rush hour minutes before.
Bliping the throttle is sluggish with the stock dual mass flywheel. I switched to a Light weight version which makes a difference but I'm not sure the rattling sound the Light weight version gives of is worth the trade off. ECU's programs wont help this problem.
Bruce - I started a thread about the poor throttle response of our cars and Steve Weiner chimed saying their flash would greatly improve throttle response and remove the flat spot.
The E46 M3 revs waaaay quicker than our 996's, but the M has 0.6" longer stroke. Definitely the induction side causing the poor response, the e-gas apparently is not the issue.
I was going to chime in and you beat me to it! Yes I have the Evo stage II clutch and lt wt flywheel...and talk about peppier. I to..have never noticed any flat spot..maybe I dont know what to look for?
As he said, it's only after rush hour traffic drives. My scenerio was this, I dropped my car pool off at her house. As I stopped at the stop sign to cross the main street to enter my neighborhood, I eased off the clutch in a smoothly. With the clutch fully released, the car didn't really move much so I floored it, still nothing. Now I'm not saying the car did not move but I clearly recall saying "damn, she doesn't want to move today". I do want to note that I wasn't trying to beat traffic and I was in no rush. When I need the power it's there. My point is I don't believe an ECU upgrade will help if you've been lazy and trying to drive efficiently through rush hour traffic for 40 mins.
i know exactly what flat spot your talking about... i always wondered if there was a way to fix it so i to would like to figure out how this can be fixed
BruceP, I've noticed the same thing with a flat spot right after launching from stand still. Very irritating and it makes me feel like I can't drive a stick shift.....and I've driven stick shift since I got my license. The 996 is tricky with the egas and the clutch feel. I've also noticed that it seems to improve after you drive it hard and to get worse when I'm stuck in traffic. Would be very interested to know if there is a fix for this.
I have the same "flat spot" thing as you call it. For whatever reason I guess that's how the throttle map is programmed. My Range Rover did the same thing. Supposedly it was to make it easier to creep the car a few inches at a time. I wish there was a Sport button to remap the throttle response like some of the 997s have.
Flat spot here too (MY00). BTW "CLS": all but the MY99 cars have e-gas.
Matt, I exactly feel the same irritation about driving the 996 as a long term stick-shift pilot. What helped me quite a bit to launch the car somewhat smoother was to remove the clutch release spring (in a second stage I've replaced the spring with a very low rate spring). The original spring is so damn stiff, that I've never been able to feel the clutch release point. Combined with the flat spot, the car launches everything but smooth if not driven hard.
Interesting to hear from "Washington DC Porsche" that neither the LWFW nor the GIAC re-flash really slove this issue.
Can it be that this is mainly a phenomenom of the 3.4l cars (99-01)?
Bruce, very good post indeed! You made a good side remark and I share this issue. I do also recognize that correctly blipping the throttle for heel and toe is hard as I apply in a lot of cases either too much or to less gas.
Thanks, guys. Nice to know it's not in my imagination! I agree that it's more of a problem in sedate driving, and Swede_Matt captured my sentiments perfectly. I'm used to being Captain Smooth behind the wheel, and I hate (especially in reverse) juddering and slipping the clutch like a student driver when I'm trying to manage a slow launch. I may try remapping, and if I do I'll report back.
And Ben, dude, throttle response is a subjective thing. I'm glad you're happy with your car, but you want to know something? I took my BMW Advanced Driver Training in an E46 M3, and I actually thought the throttle response was a bit lazy unless it was in sport mode. Each to his own, brotha.
Definitely not your imagination. I've noticed the same thing on all the Porsches I've driven (986 and 996's). The way around it is more aggressive driving off the start. But it's annoying, for sure.
I've noticed this, that the throttle response is sharper after a good, hard, long run. That's what made me wonder if there was a software fix. I mean, if the DME can 'decide' to improve it, then some clever tuner must have it figured out, too...
Thanks for the comment.
oh hail naw sir bruce - e46 M3 throttle response lazy? WAHAHAH c'mon now, first take off your armor and then give it a whirl again.
sport button doesn't do crap for throttle respons per se... just makes the engine rev more in an artifical manner per the degree of pedal pressure applied.
In fact, Captain Sarcasm, Sport Mode was mostly about remapping the throttle response, which you defined very well in your post: "... rev more in an artifical [sic] manner per the degree of pedal pressure applied." That's what throttle response means, silly goose.
As for the 'lazy' comment, that's just me underlining the subjective taste dimension of all this. As I said a few posts ago, I grew up on mechanical throttles. You didn't, so you have a different frame of reference.
oh captain my captain, throttle response is the lag time between you pushing the pedal down and the car moving in response. the response time between sport and non-sport modes is just the same just that when you push that sport button now a lil nudge gives it bigger response than when button on off.
i had an s2000 as my first car - that f20c had a cable attached to it oh genteel and kind sir.
Nope, not exactly. Throttle response is basically a kind of sensitivity. It's about how responsive the engine is in relation to throttle modulation. Got nothing to do with "lag time". In fact, back in the day, you increased throttle response by putting a little pivoting cam in line with the throttle cable. The aftermarket still sells these for older Porsches. It's all about how much right foot movement it takes to open the throttle. Nothing more than that. "Lag" is a forced induction issue, and is caused by negative manifold pressure at low rpms and/or parasitic power losses, in the case of superchargers. It feels like poor throttle response, but technically that's not what's happening.
With e-gas cars, throttle response is controlled by the DME, sometimes dynamically (my Rover has a set of distinct throttle response maps, one just for cruise control, if you can imagine). BMW's Sport Mode was an aggressive map.
On the S2000, I'll take your word for it and stand corrected.
The problem isn't with 'flooring it'. It's with tipping in as you release the clutch, such as when reversing or gently starting off from a stop in traffic. It's subtle, but you can see that lots of people have noticed it. Maybe the MK2 cars are, indeed, better in this regard. Dunno.
I have noticed the clutch feel issues that have been flogged to death here, but no throttle response issues. Its a bit slow from the heavy flywheel, but no flat spots on the MKII.
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