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YOUR RESEARCH"IMS" input needed!
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The other reason why the topic is such a sore spot with us is due to the fact that the oils are CONSTANTLY changing their formulations without any advance notice and that impacts the effectiveness of the oil.
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Meaning that it is permanently lubricated when manufactured and due to this it is isolated from the engine's oil supply.
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I have NEVER heard of another failure after a gearbox was repaired with this modified bearing procedure.
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They also changed the design, looks like a flow restrictor to allow full flow at the opening temperature.
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Typically, the higher end "boutique" lubricants get better wear protection by reducing detergency, so the oil has to be changed more often.
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If Jake says "listen to your engine" I can tell you that it won't be saying anything pleasant when I start it in the work parking lot on a cold winter evening if it's filled with 15W50.
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And I like to point out that if this bit of old oil is so bad as to cause worry, remember the entire engine was filled with this stuff just before the oil was changed and why was 9 quarts of it in the sump ok and maybe 1 quart left in the engine in various places not ok?
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The other reason why the topic is such a sore spot with us is due to the fact that the oils are CONSTANTLY changing their formulations without any advance notice and that impacts the effectiveness of the oil.
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Since most members on this forum are more familiar about the "IMS" issues than I am. I would appreciate any input from members who have either done this, or members opinions on it!
OK, here goes!
I am strongly considering purchasing the "LN engineering" (IMS) upgrade retrofit kit, and installing it before my "IMS" goes bad.
My dilemma is, do you think it is worth the expense to try to prevent a possible "IMS" failure in the future? And what do you think of their upgrade Kit, (ceramic hybrid bearing w/ silicon nitride roller *****). Their web site claims they are 3x to 5x stronger than stock.
I figure I am close to needing a new clutch anyways. So this might be a good time to do it, if it works!
Info on p car; 99' C4, with 70,000mi, 6spd.
LN's web site;
http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html
Thanks ahead of time for the input.
Dennis
An IMS bearing failure can be catastrophic, so the cost of this upgrade is cheap compared to a new engine. When I had my engine out to fix the intermix I really wanted to do this upgrade, but at the time they were still working out the technique and tools for the dual row bearing. This was only a month or so ago. I did do the OEM upgraded flange, but if I have the trans off or the engne out again I think I would do this upgrade. Just my thoughts.
I spoke to Charles over at "LN", and he said they did have the double row bearing I would need. I guess it is new. 99' 3.4 all had the double row bearing, according to Charles.
Kits are available for all pre 2006 engines using single or double roller bearings. The procedures are different for extracting each as are the tools.
We applied the first LN Engineering retrofit bearing into my personal car and it has endured extreme tests already. This weekend this car and two others will have another grueling set of tests accomplished on track under full data acquisition as we continue to evaluate the arrangements. I have completed all of LN's testing for over a decade with both air and watercooled Porsches.
I have successfully applied more of these retrofit assemblies than anyone, so feel free to contact me with questions directly.
I will not build or install ANY engine unless this upgrade is completed, period.
do both ends of the shaft rattle ? do you only need to repair the tranny side? is the rear (exhaust side) just too hard to access (required engine dissassembly)
If the bearing is bad (as in the video) and lasted 75k miles... why not replace it with another stock one?
Thanks Jake... this is an old road for you - and we need and appreciate your help
Porsche does not sell the bearing. Porsche tols us that it was impossible to extract the dual row bearing.
there is only ONE bearing in the IMS, the other end is supported by a journal on the oil pump end of the block, no bearing is there and there is nothing to fail.
If ANYONE has a rattle DO NOT DRIVE THE CAR AT ALL OR FIRE UP THE ENGINE!! All it takes is 2 secods to turn an engine from possible salvation to total destruction.
where would you hear this rattle and how obvious would it be....
SO the replacing of the bearing solves the IMS problem? or is there more to the story ( I read quite a bit of that write up, but not all)
Actually when mine "went", I was driving on a major toll road from NY to MA. Since I had the Fast Lane transponder in the car (aka EZ Pass), I wasn't stopping for the tolls, just slowing. I remember someone yelling (and probably trying to tell me about the noise) but I didn't think they were yelling to me. (I had the top down so there was a lot of wind noise.)
Finally after going through another toll, my wife said "is that noise from your car?" and then I heard it. Sounded like chains being whipped around in the engine. I thought it was coming from a pickup truck driving next to us but it wasn't. It was my car.
The engine continued to run but I pulled over and turned off the ignition. Then I started it again to and it started with no problem. I slightly revved the engine to see if the noise accelerated with the engine and it did so I shut if off.
I probably could have continued driving it for who knows how long but I had it flat bedded to MA instead.
So even when the noise starts, the engine does not die immediately however, the dealer did find a lot of metal in the oil.
Why are people replacing components that show no sign of failure or problems? There are numerous components that fail more frequently than does the IMS bearing, so i suggest you also tear down the engine and replace or repair those too?
OR.................you can just drive your car that shows no sign of anything being wrong and enjoy it. If it goes it goes. If you are prone to paranoia, stay away from forums like this.
IMO if I am going in and replacing the clutch, I will replace the RMS as a maintenance item AND IF the ims brearing is replacable too... I will do that for the same reason - at 111k miles it surely is not the only item thaty warrents replacement - I would love to swap out the chain tentioners too, but those are really digging in the motor...I am not paranoid, just realistic, its an old motor - $1-2k of parts beats $15k - not saying it will prevent it, but it might.... isnt that why we do maintenance
If you're replacing the clutch I don't think replacing the IMS bearing would be much extra labor at all, and LN Engineering rents out the custom tools to do it, so why not?
I agree Dell, but with over 100k what do you think the cam chain guide would look like.....and a roller bearing, well that is one of those "might last forever, might not" parts...agreed?
It would be the equivelant of changing wheel bearing during a brake job...even if the bearing are not making noise at all...... thinking 996, that front wheel bearing is NOT cheap and NOT easy to replace... requires special tools and stuff
Agree. If you are already in there and the miles are way up there on the motor then sure. It's the lower mile motors that have lots of life in them that fear drives them to start replacing parts is what gets me.
I would have definitely agreed with you up until my IMS failure.
I felt kind of let down when the motor died at only 27K miles. I had it maintained at the dealer religiously and actually had some maintenance done earlier than needed. I had always read about the failures before and thought, "Oh yeah, poor guy but it doesn't happen that often". That may be true but it seems to have happened a little too frequently for such a good car maker as Porsche. Don't get me wrong, this is my 4th Porsche and I don't intend it to be my last. It's just there is some truth to the fear.
I'm not sure I would have the IMS changed as a preventative either unless the car was WAY out of warranty anyway.
Jake, your post convinced me to go ahead and do it. So thank you!
It will cost less than a grand, above and beyond the new clutch. Pretty small amount in my opinion if it could prevent a catastrophic failure. And thanks to everyone else for the input. But;
"1999Porsche911" Was that comment really necessary?
"If you are prone to paranoia, stay away from forums like this."
I have no comment for that.
DDAY;
BTW- The IMS bearingis a SEALED unit... Meaning that it is permanently lubricated when manufactured and due to this it is isolated from the engine's oil supply. No matter how often you service your engine, the IMS bearing sees NONE of that fresh, clean oil!!! You can change the oil every 2K miles and still become a statistic, because NONE of that oil will ever see the IMS bearing.
once you have the flywheel off... how long would you say it would take a first timer to swap out the bearing and what level (1=screw in a lightbulb, 10=master mechanic) would you rate the job
thanks Jake
That recommendation is for the prevention of other wear issues.. The extended drain intervals are proving to take their toll on the hydraulic lifters ad vario cam chain tensioner pads and drive chains in the earlier engines.
Out of the last 6 engines I have torn down or repaired internally we have found no less than 16 "stuck" lifters, one engine had 20, another with 22 of 24 stuck and this is directly related to the insane extended oil drain intervals.
More frequent oil services reduce the fuel and coolant intrusion that the oil sees and that coupled to purging other contaminants that the oil filter may not collect is the primary reason for our oil services being carried out at no more than 5,000 miles.
The stock hydraulic lifters in these engines are like miniature filters, with very small passages inside them that collect crap before any other part of the engine... Stuck lifters can lead to reduced valve lift by over 10% per valve, thats why a recent service of the valve train netted a 16HP gain in the same engine after using our updated lifters... That engine had 22 of 24 lifters stuck and was the weakest 3.4 thats ever been on my dyno, after the service it was right back where all the others like it have been.
Jake, I went over to flat6innovations.com but a lot of the Featured Articles go to blank pages. Got a link to some sort of white paper or recommendations for oil issues (viscosity, type, intervals) on M96 engines?
Our development has taken ALL of my time for the past 6 months, so lots of tech articles are not finished.
The oil recommendations are something you'll never see from me on line. It is a VERY sore subject with me. Nothing I have experienced first hand parallels Porsches recommendations so to save us all the argument I'll plead the fifth..
EVERY time I make a recommendation people throw advertisements and "papers" in the mix that have ZERO empirical data from these engines behind them.. Its too controversial for me to waste my time engaging in these debates.
I don't understand why you won't comment on what oil you recommend. I have never known anyone on this board to attack someone for simply stating their opinion on the subject.
The topic is simply too controversial and my recommendations do not parallel those of the manufacturer of the engine.
This topic has caused us lots of grief and too many debates. I am way too intense to have conversations on this topic without a chance of loosing my tact and professionalism...
The other reason why the topic is such a sore spot with us is due to the fact that the oils are CONSTANTLY changing their formulations without any advance notice and that impacts the effectiveness of the oil.
An oil that I once thought very highly of showed me a serious weakness this past weekend in my 996 at the track for a DE... It was the first time I had gathered this particular data and now this oil is no longer respected for the M96.
So as soon as I did make a recommendation it would probably change or I'd make a discovery that wasn't positive.
Sorry guys..
Wow. Sorry it's a sore spot.
Anyway, your associate Charles Navarro wrote this, which is pretty helpful:
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html/name#m96
Yes Charles wrote that and with some of my input.. But those are his thoughts, not mine.
Mobil 1 is not the oil I was referring to earlier in this thread.
I tried it again last week and it pissed me off in one 83 mile trip. I drained it.
More on that some other time..
Jake,
What about it "pissed me off" during your trip? What data are you collecting and analyzing when you experiment with different oils? A normal oil analysis would be obvious. Are you testing different oils during DE sessions and comparing coolant temps, etc?
I'm just curious about what I could or should be observing as I drive my car (besides the oil analysis at regular drain intervals).
That particular incident was nothing more than a noise that drove me nuts.. It occurred when the Mobil 1 was poured in the engine and went away as soon as it was drained and replaced..
When observing lubricants one should pay attention to MPG, harmonics, mechanical sounds, temperatures, pressures and then compile all of that and compare it to the UOA..It doesn't take long to see what oils really shine... After you experience what I have you'll just smile when you see a certain brand advertised on TV, then you'll shake your head knowing the truth.
Dont pay attention to what people, adverts or articles say, just pay attention to the engine.
As many people have asked, then what do you like and why? It's one thing to have an opinion but a whole 'nother to think it's the gospel. Share your opinion as I know most would like to hear from somebody that ACTUALLY has experience with these motors.
Nobody is ever going to get smarter if those that we know have experience don't share their knowledge.
I'd say that is a reasonable request from someone who has more experience and can back up their oil preference with facts, as opposed to most of us that don't have hands on experience because we don't regularly tear down and rebuild Porsche engines for a living.
Jake, if bantering back and forth with the "but it's Porsche approved" morons is too annoying, why not try some old fashioned one-way communication? Share your opinion on what you like and recommend, on your web site if not here, and to hell with anyone who argues about it on a public forum.
As others have said, you have a pretty unique position and a basis for knowledge that gives your opinion a lot of weight. I think many here would be happy to take that opinion at face value.
errr - PM me with what oil you use - I wont tell
really
I am using Q Horsepower 10w-40 - what a biatch to find!!! - its the replacement for the Shell Helix Ultra (no longer offered, but "same fomulation")
I used to use Kendall on my Fiat and swore by that stuff... anyone use Kendall?
Agreed. It would be good to have an expert opinion based on hard data and experience that is correlated. I'm not holding my breath. I would like to know what observations I can make in the normal use of my car to compare my experience with others (and with the "gospel truth" if it were to ever exist).
I knew it! Mobil 1 is **** now!
Before I get blasted, do a search on flat cams and cam wear on Lotus motors. Not to mention, Mobil 1 should never be used an air-cooled motor.
Always use "racing" oil and you will be fine.
Nice cop out as usual Jake. Just for once I'd like to see you offer an opinion of substance on this board rather than talk about what is wrong with everything and say you have the fix but only will discuss it with a bonafide customer. Explain to me again what you goal is here?
It's a shame as we all would like to hear from you since this is your area of expertise.
It's what gets me through the week. Every Friday night is martini night in my house, but just Friday that way they are extra delicious. And oh yeah, I'd have to cancel classes all the time if I was pouring this during the week
Dammit. You all are MUCH worse than the 993 guys.
Maybe we can get cnavarro to post here more. I'll keep buying Motul from him (best price around, BTW).
Sort of in the vein of pressure fed tensioners for 74' - 83' 911 engines, could the IMS bearing be retrofitted with a pressure feed and fix the problem together with a new IMS & bearing system???
that's frikein' hilarious!
I'm still clucking...I am running 0/40M1 and the engine seems to be very slightly 'racketty', but not offensively especially to untrained ears. Maybe I'll half&half it next go round - which should be in half the time that Porshee recommends. I'm tempted yank the engine out of my Tip, - buy a 6spd, yank that engine and put it in the Tip car then sell the Tip car (cheap), send my reman to Jake and have him hot rod and beef the crap out of it and then run the living daylights out of the 'new' 6spd car.
No need to pressure feed the IMS.. Our retrofit bearing is NOT a sealed unit, and since its a silicon nitride ceramic bearing it doesn't need nearly as much oil as one would think..
The area of the IMS bearing is flooded with clean, cool oil during operation so no one knows why Porsche sealed it. The sealed bearing is by far the single biggest contributor to the IMS failures... The same thing is occurring with the pinion bearings within the 6 speed tranny that also use a sealed bearing for some bazaar reason.. For those the trick for several years has been to rip the seal off and open the bearing to gear oil... I have NEVER heard of another failure after a gearbox was repaired with this modified bearing procedure.
Lvdell,
I'll talk about most anything here except engine oils.. I have been fighting that battle online for over a decade and learned long ago that its a battle that can't be won... Especially when anything I'd recommend or state would directly go against the recommendations of the engine manufacturer.
One day when we have several more years worth of data and "evidence" I will find the intestinal fortitude to step up and post the information.. By that time it'll be damn near impossible for anyone to argue with the facts.
There is nothing more worthless than an oil debate...
As far as "talking bad about everything" well, thats just the way the ball bounces.. I received 19 failure calls THIS WEEK, answer the phone to that many calls from down and out Porsche Owners and then spend your time fixing the broken engines.. The engines that have the same issues over and over again. Some of these people sound like their Dog was shot or they lost their best friend, and it can be very depressing.
As we fight the issues it is also a painful, expensive learning curve of true development... Two steps forward is countered by one step back.. Sorry for being so negative, but it is simply reality.. Come answer my phone for a week and you'll never deny that these engines have "issues" again.
You need to realize that any "racketty" sound inside your engine is causing wear. This is the classic symptom of of inadequate oil protection and should be corrected. People that cliam that rattling valves, timing chain guides, etc are normal and do not cause wear are fooling themselves.
Move to a better viscosity oil. Use the Mobil 0W40 on your door hinges, not in your engine.
Thanks for explaining your rationale but I would hope you would allow that to be secondary to those that really want to hear what you have to say. For me, I would like to hear it and God knows many others do. As long as it's explained WHY, then it would be informative rather than "well because Porsche says so".
Until such time, most of us are following the rec'd of PAG/PCNA for our cars as outlined in either (a) our manuals; or (b) the TSB lists that are contstantly updated.
Until somebody explains WHY one oil is empirically better for the M96 than another (or showing a ranking of various oils like Mobil1, BradPenn, Amsoil, Joe Gibbs, etc) then most will just take what PAG states as scripture and go on faith.
We need more people with expertise to contribute rather than state they don't want to get into a pissing match with the dissenters. OBviously your skin is thick as most can't take my honesty and tell it like it is personality. I appreciate that. So post away!
I have to agree....
again.... its an OPINION that is based on YOUR experience and that is why WE would LIKE to know.........
(this will **** him off
)
Its not like your OPINION is right ...........
hahahaha
J/K
There are benefits to using low viscosity oil over higher viscosity oil. All things being equal, you will get better fuel economy, slightly cooler oil and less power will be lost to drag. The benefits of higher viscosity oil are far more numerous. Better pressure throughout the oil system, better separation of components, thicker and stronger film between parts, better “cling”, less shear, less oil leaks, less burning of oil, less evaporation, and less prone to aeration.
If an engine was perfectly balanced and tight, you could probably get away with running straight 0 weight oil. But in the real world, engine component are not balanced and with every rotation of the crank, components attempt to hit each other. (especially at low rpm and high loads). It is the oil that keeps them from being successful.
So, like everything else in life, you make a compromise. Better performance in the short run, or longer engine life.
People don’t realize that there is a HUGE acceptable range in the kinematic viscosity shear rate of a given viscosity rating. 40 weight oil can be as thin as 30 weight oil and still be classified as 40 weight. Example: A 30 weight oil can have a kinematic viscosity shear rate in the rage of 9.3 -12.5 at 100C. A 40 weight oil can have a kinematic viscosity shear rate in the rage of 12.5 -16.3 at 100C.
Furthermore, a 0W40 oil and a 15W40 oil DO NOT have the same absolute viscosity when hot. The 15W40 will provide you more protection against shearing. And this is exactly why I recommend a 15W50 oil in the Porsche engine.
The vast majority of people’s knowledge of oils is what they have learned through marketing and claim they are experts because they have read all this marketing literature. Others have both academic training and experience and have been able to learn beyond what the manufacturers want you to know.
If anyone was seriously interested in determining the best oil for their car, they would pursue the truth from a source other than a forum like this. All others are just stuck arguing with false facts and stuck following the marketer’s recommendations. But, most people are lazy and demand others to post "proof", rather than getting off their asses and doing a little leg work themselves. Yet, the only proof they have for their side of the debate is "it's on the approved list".
I agree with you right up until the point about getting "off their lazy asses". Some people do NOT have the technical ability nor understanding to get to those answers. For this reason, it helps to have experts that have got off their asses to research this stuff and help the community out.
As far as the 15W-50, sure it's great, but not in the winter months. If you live in a climate that doesn't have cold winters then fine but if you have a winter, then the 15W-50 needs to be changed.
I am moving from the 0W-40 Mobil1 to the 5W-40 Amsoil for my car.
In the end though, if people just understand that changing their oil FREQUENTLY can help avoid a lot of the crap that can happen to these (and other) motors over time. Maintenance, Maintenance, Maintenance, there is no substitute.
has anyone ever been told to run a synthetic oil LONGER so it can do its job... and that most people change it out TOO fast??
I dont want to say where, but a shop I trust(ed) told me that?
Not at the 15 and 20K intervals being rec'd these days!
Ed, so the "trusted" shop thinks that oil doesn't work when it's new? Maybe we should be buying slightly used oil?
Unless you do the research yourself, what "proof" would convince you? I could tell you that I have a PHD is Fluid Mechanics and then you would want proof of that. I could tell you I have 30+ years in pratical application with NASA and you would want prrof of that. I could provide you with pictures of my degrees, whether real or otherwise and would you accept that? I could provide you with the awards I received from NASA, real or otherwise and would that be acceptable?
OR....I could just be some bum hanging out on the internet rasing doubts about the erroneous beliefs of motor oil properties and maybe raise some doubts in your mind. Enough doubts where you feel compelled to find the truth about it yourself.
People's qualifications, as described on sites like this should be suspect and common sense and individual investigation and reaseach should be done to verify statements made. You're a statitician. Any suspicions in someone's statement that he has, on average, 4 -5 cars in his shop daily for IMS replacement?
It's not on the Porsche "list" I don't think, but the weights are.
You can see the Amsol formulations it on the Amsoil website. The have standard motor oil and racing applications. Probably use their 5W-40
LINK
in the cooler months and their 15W-50
LINK
in the warmer months.
Remember, the Porsche list is the "recommended" oils.
Exactly. That's my big problem with most oil discussions--so many of the people here are in always warm climates, or never drive their car in the winter. Nice to hear from those folks, but their opinions are pretty worthless to me in my situation.
If Jake says "listen to your engine" I can tell you that it won't be saying anything pleasant when I start it in the work parking lot on a cold winter evening if it's filled with 15W50.
The issue isn't whether 0W40 or 5W40 is evil. A single digit before the W is a necessity around here. It's
which 0W40 and 5W40 are good, solid oils that haven't sold out to emissions and cost cutting requirements, have quality basestocks that don't need viscosity extenders, and have the anti-wear additives that Porsches need.
Not too hard a question, eh?
As a Vendor, being forward with information is a really big challenge when you are countering what Porsche dictates.. Its a tough place to be in, and I really dislike it.
I learned long ago that 10% of the readers of a post/ thread will argue about anything and will "parrot" whats stated in advertisements as gospel, even if they have absolutely zero direct experience... Most of those I have argued with in the past don't even change their own engine oil, but they are experts.
Maybe one day I'll come up with a directive concerning oils and sell it as a reference.. At least if people are going to cause trouble I'll make something off the BS that comes with it.. And it won't be quite so easy for them to copy/ paste statements into threads on forums that start WWIII.
As we learn more and more about the engine and find things that defy conventional wisdom its going to be difficult to share the data without ending up creating conflicts that pull me away from the lab.
It gets a hell of lot colder here in Chicago than SE Penn and I use 15W50 all year round. Synthetics are alot different than conventional oils. The pour rate of 15W50 is - 38F which is only about 10F higher than 5W30.
Fascinating. The pour point of Motul 300V 5W40 is -33�F--actually higher that the 15w50 that you're talking about. The pour point of the remarkable (until recent reformulations) Mobil1 Truck & SUV 5W40 is -49�F.
How do you suppose that happened? Something more to it maybe? Extra variables? Stats don't tell the whole story? Hmmm.
Exactly. So, since synthetics that use viscosity extenders use them to bulk up the high end:
a) what sort of pisswater do you suppose they start with to get those low flow numbers?
b) what sort of witch's brew do they have to add to said pisswater to get it to resemble a 50 weight oil for a minute or two until the additives burn off?
c) if they do that to 15W50, does the 0W40 go right from the kitchen faucet to the bottle, or what?
Can't trust a f'ing thing anymore...
John,
FWIW...From my reading, I am going with Motul 300v (in my engine right now) or Redline, both in 5W40. My interval will be 5k miles, and I just installed Jake's spin-on filter w/ filter mag and magnetic drain plug (although it may be too little, too late as I already have 80k miles on my engine).
To the OP...I will install the IMS retrofit at the next convienent time.
Outside of that, I guess I need to start sending Jake liquor and x-mas cards in case my engine blows.
The way is see it, the 3 things I have going for me are:
1. my car is my DD
2. I have a tiptronic
3. FWIW it was one of the last 996s ever built
Admittedly threads like this can be depressing, but I has forced me to do some preventative measures. Jake, I appreciate the hard work you and LN have put into troubleshooting these engines. I wish you guys were out here. Ultimately, I need to get at least 250k miles out of this engine, and I can't afford to buy a new one anytime soon. On the bright side, I have like a 90% chance of having a long running engine w/ no grenades.
Yeah, probably going to go with the 300V too. Only drawback is $15/l.
I do wonder why, given a) the 300V's monster additive package and solid basestock, and b) better filtration from the spin on filter, it would need to be changed very often? Are 996s particularly hard on oil?
Jake and LN Engineering make a good case for not using the long drain intervals recommended by Porsche. It's not so much the breakdown as it is contaminates that take their toll on some of our more sensitive parts. It's cheap insurance to me.
Ps. You might save $30 per change by going w/ the RedLine racing oil.
I'm having a new cluch installed and have decided to have the LN ceramic bearings installed on my 996 (while they are "in there" already).
Let me be clear that I have not had any issues with either car (986 or 996), but I have decided to install the upgrade as a prophylactic measure.
My dealership has installed the LN bearings already (in a few other cars) and they have the special tool for the procedure.
I will keep the "old" bearing and take pictures of it to post on the board.
(on a side note I have a 2009 Cayenne loaner and it's pretty nice. The new touch screen system that controls nav, radio, etc is pretty slick.)
I'm seriously considering this also. I worry this change hasn't been time tested, but for me the IMS seal just keeps failing and am willing try just about anything at this point.
The bearing we are using is absolute overkill.. The rollers are silicon nitride and the races are also overkill.. When this bearing was designed we automatically went to the most extreme duty arrangement possible.
The engines we have applied the bearing to have been rigorously tested.. Two weekends ago I had bearings #1, 4 and 11 all on the track at the same time.. The engine that bearing #1 is installed into has seen nothing except pure hell including seeing 7,000 RPM for 4 hours straight on my dyno immediately after it was installed.
What we are offering is exceptionally developed. Time will prove that its the real deal, by that time it will be much, much more expensive technology.
Md is a short drive from my facility, I can solve your issues and they won't repeat themselves.
You mean non-filterable contaminants like coolant or fuel? I've read about the intermix issue, but that's quick and catastrophic, right? Do these engines leak small amounts of coolant into the oil on an ongoing basis?
No, not usually.
I'm talking about normal microcontaminants like iron particles that wear away at seals and bearings. These are usually too small to be trapped by the OEM filter. I'm sure this is only one aspect of some bigger issues (like the crappy IMS), but it's one that I easily have control over and can do something about.
When I first had a P-car I thought "$300 bucks for an oil change! I'm gonna push the interval as far as I can." Now I've come around. I change my own oil on both cars and it's every 5K for the 911 and 7500 for the cayenne.
To add to MedTech's reply: Coolant is not a normal contaminate of engine oil. If you have coolant in engine oil you got big problems.
Engine oil contamination consists of basically two things: Solids and liquids.
Solid contaminates are made up of the various metals in the engine. There's iron (piston coating), aluminum (everywhere), aluminum oxide (forms on aluminum when aluminum exposed to air), and possibly steel (camshaft lobes, lifter bucket faces) and some bearing metals. All in a healthly engine should be at barely trace amount levels.
(I'm going to ignore solids that might be part of the oil's anti-scuff anti-wear additive package.)
Of the metals or hard materials I believe aluminum and aluminum oxide (may show up as same thing) are most common.
Then there are possible trace metals/compounds that arrive from unburned gasoline. There is carbon (soot) for one. (Change diesel engine oil once to see how dark engine oil can get from soot.)
Lastly the intake air can carry in contaminates. Silicon maybe most common wihch is a common component of dirt.
Solids -- particulates -- can be, will almost certainly be abrasive.
Besides solids there are liquid contaminates. Gas and water.
Water and gas can cause engine oil and engines grief two ways. The 1st way is by diluting the oil, lowering its viscosity and decreasing the oil's ability to avoid break down in high temperature high load conditions.
Besides this oil and water mixed together are more likely to entrain air and thus there is the danger at higher rpms or when engine subject to high g-forces and engine oil level around the oil pickup drops aerated oil may be ingested. This oil has less load carrying ability and metal to metal contact could occur. At slow speeds this is wear. At higher speeds, higher rpms the engine's output may decrease if this oil makes it into the zero-lash lifters and some clearance appears. The camshaft profile will not be followed by the lifter as accurately and valve timing and lift affected and not in a good way. Worse, is metal to metal contact occurs and catastrophic engine failure occurs.
Anyhow, it is not uncommon for water to represent several percent of the engine's total engine sump contents. This could be a quarter cup of water up to nearly a half a quart depending upon engine oil capacity.
The second way is even more insidious. A bit of prelim: Shortly after engine start this water mixes with the oil and stays mixed much oil and vinegar dressing stays mixed as long as you shake the bottle. But as soon as you shut off the engine, water and oil begin to separate. Water in its intimate mixing with oil has had time to combine with every other solid/chemical contaminate in the oil. Some of these form with water acids.
So wherever there is oil puddled, hydraulic valve zero-lash buckets, under the camshaft covers, engine oil heat exchanger, engine oil tank, and engine oil sump, the oil stratifys into various layers of oil and oil with higher concentrations of water. In some cases, a very thin layer of water may lie at the bottom of the lowest points in the engine sump or engine oil tank.
In the oil sump or oil tank and this watery/oil could be the 1st slug of liquid the engine oil pump ingests and pumps to the engine's oil passages.
What happens upon engine start is the 1st slug of oil ingested by the pump contains a very high concentration of water. To make matters worse this water is acidic and as it has sat with the engine off over time this acidic water has attacked the metal it is in contact with.
In the engine oil sump this is aluminum. So when the oil begins rushing to the oil pickup the friction of this oil will tear away any particles of metal the acid has loosened. This is aluminum and aluminum oxide. Aluminum oxide is an industrial abrasive.
Since the engine oil is cold and if filter in service too long some maybe all of this oil will be routed around/past the oil filter. This feeds abrasive laden oil to the friction/bearing surfaces upon engine start.
Not good.
Now another place the oil can accumulate is in the hollow intermedidate shaft where some of the water will settle out and the acid it is will attack at first the IMS bearing seal. Once the seal is compromised then the as the engine sits with oil contaminated with water/acids this gives the acids a chance to attack the bearing *****, races, and ball separator. In a highly stressed bearing it only takes a tiny bit of corrosion to form a point from which total bearing failure will almost certainly arise. Even if the ***** and races escape corrosion the bearing's ball separator can fail and this will result in bearing failure in short order.
You can only remove the water and the unburned gas and acids completely by an engine oil/filter change. Granted a bit of old oil remains in the engine but this amount represents such a small amount its intermixing with fresh oil does not compromise the fresh oil's ability to protect the engine for many many thousands of miles. And I like to point out that if this bit of old oil is so bad as to cause worry, remember the entire engine was filled with this stuff just before the oil was changed and why was 9 quarts of it in the sump ok and maybe 1 quart left in the engine in various places not ok?
Engine oil contamination is a very serious matter.
Sincerely,
Macster.
Water is not a problem in oil in a closed system unless the car is never fully warmed up and driven for awhile. You can burn off a 1/2 quart of water in a fully warmed engine in less than 30 minutes.
Unless you never drive your car for any length of time, concern of moisture in oil is over exagerated.
Typically, the higher end "boutique" lubricants get better wear protection by reducing detergency, so the oil has to be changed more often. Real race oils are sometimes non-detergent for this reason.
I've tested 300V in a daily driver and a 5,000 mi/6 month interval is at the edge of service life for that particular product, but still a great choice.
Motul's 8100 5w40 X-Cess Porsche Approved oil is quite a bit cheaper. I'll have test results for it from our track car in a few weeks - going to pull a sample in the next few days.
Thanks for the additional info. I've noticed that high oil temperature seems to be a non-issue with 996s compared to older cars. There is not even a way to check the oil temp! Does that mean that the #1 criteria for choosing Porsche oil--that it can hold up at temps in the high 200s--is no longer so important?
Yes, the M96 does run high oil temperatures and it's equally important to use the best oil possible, being we're stuck to a 40wt.
Hot, the Motul 8100 has about 1 bar higher oil pressure than M1 0w40, from what customers have reported back with their 996s.
Worthy of conversation, the new 91A engine runs lower coolant temperatures (and oil temperatures) and uses a 176F thermostat now, cooler than what the factory M96 thermostat ran (186F). They also changed the design, looks like a flow restrictor to allow full flow at the opening temperature. Porsche must have realized they were running these engines too hot.
Correct.
Even the manual says "use only engine oil labelled as API SH....and viscosity of 40 or higher.......engine oils should be used as synthetic or semisynthetic oil."
States this in both my Boxster and 996 manuals.
Dumb question but what "exactly" is the difference between the 5W-50 and the 15W-50? I understand the numbering, etc, but trying to understand quantitatively when looking at the numbers the manufacturer publishes on their "product data sheets". I know it can't be as simple as "they are both the same viscosity at higher temp but different at lower temp".
Technically, the only 50 wt is the 5w50 Mobil not the readily available 15w50, which isn't sold in the US. I'm talking about Porsche approved oils - it's a free world and you're free to put in whatever you want though.
These engines are very sensitive to flow at startup, and need a thinner oil. Variocam+ engines are even more sensitive to viscosity. The 5w will have a lower pour point and hence higher flow cold versus the 15w50. I've run a 20w50 in a non variocam+ engine without any problems, it's just not something recommended by Porsche.
The one area where 300V isn't so good is pour point:
Motul 300v 5w40 -33F
Mobil1 15W50 -38F
Mobil1 5W40 Truck & SUV (SJ,SL, discontinued) -49F
Mobil1 0W40 -65F
Not too concerned with pour point honestly. I don't want to drive my Porsche when it's anywhere near that cold. The oil still must be within a certain cSt range to be classified as a given weight and the 300v is still considered a 5w40. It takes LOTS of viscosity modifiers/improvers to get a wider range of viscosity with such low pour points.
One of the key differences is the HTHS (high temperature high shear). Mobil's 5W50 is 4.3 and 15W50 is 4.5. As a comparison, 0W40 is 3.7. HTHS directly effects engine wear. Higher equals less wear. Mobil' 15W50 also has higher antiwear ZDDP.
Remember, an oil's Kinematic viscosity is NOT an indication of its shear strength but only it'a resistance to flow under pressure of gravity only. It's Kinematic viscosity, tho related, does not measure how the flow will be under the pressure created by a pump.
Thanks for that clarification, although that was the point of comment about pour point not being an end-all in my selection of lubricant.
HTHS is the most important factor for considering a lubricant next to it's additive package, at least in my opinion.
Do you even know the differnce between the flow of a 5W50 and a 15W50 in an engine? Of coarse not. They don't give out that infomation because it would go against everything their marketing department is doing.
There are a few properties/numbers that I was hoping to get some plain language explanation.
What does cSt@ measure and what does that number mean?
Viscosity index?
Is there a way to figure out what base number (0W, 5W, 10W, 15W, etc) is best at what temp on startup for optimal flow?
Just trying to get smart on the terminology and not trying to ask what oil I should use. I'll make that decision based on getting smart about it.
I call BS - this is a bigger issue than something to just blow off.... YES - IF you drive the car, the moisture will be "burned off" however - ALL internal combustion engines trap water and IF NOT burned off, it will accumulate enough to be an issue -
I killed a car with this as I worked only 4 miles away.. and on my way to work i would drop the kids off after 3/4 mile, then go to my Mother in laws another 3/4 mile away, then the post office.... 3/4 mile, then the store... 1 mile, then work... 3/4 mile. - at lunch I would run out for a quick 2 mile trip, and back... then after work - I would stop at my hangout 1/2 way home.... I never thought I was killing the motor... but it got realy rusty inside... I mean really rusty! (changed oil every 3-4k miles) - over time it killed it -
Iit can happen and if you have a short drive to work and the car doesnt warm up - it WILL happen......
I dont know if that is over "exagerated" - but it is true and CAN happen
The SAE viscosity grade is just brushing the surface. There are a lot of other factors that determine the optimal performing oil for a specific application. For example depending on the ambient temps the cold start viscosity of a 0W vs. 5W oil can be inconsequential to engine wear. IMHO the best way to optimize an oil for a particular engine application is through used oil analyses (UOA).
The forum for amateur (and some professional) tribologists is here
http://bobistheoilguy.com
For convenience I quoted these from the BITOG glossary:
centistoke (cSt)
The worldwide unit of kinematic viscosity.
VI (Viscosity Index)
An arbitrary scale used to show the magnitude of viscosity changes in lubricating oils with changes in temperature. Oils with low VI number such as VI=0 ("zero") have high dependence of viscosity change on temperature. They thicken quickly with decreasing temperature, and thin out quickly with increasing temperature. Oils with high VI number such as VI=200, will still thicken with decreasing temperature but not as rapidly, and also will thin out with increasing temperature, but again not as much as low VI oil.
VI number can also be "negative"
Tables found in ASTM Method D 2270 are widely used to determine VI number.
However, VI does not tell the whole story -- it only reflects the viscosity/temperature relationship between temperatures of 40�C and 100�C. Two lubricants or base oils with the same VI number may perform dramatically different at low temperatures in the -5�C to - 50�C range.
So then if I am looking at comparing 2 oils (made up numbers) with cSt@40C of 75 and 125 respectively and cSt@100C of 15 and 20 respectively, what the hell does that mean?
Let's throw the viscosity index into the mix with them having 200 and 150 respectively.
How about HTHS of 3.5 and 4.5 respectively?
I am far from an expert on oil and do not have a Fluid Engineering degree to back up my statements but a friend told me just use "racing" oil and you'll be fine.
They're loaded with ZDDP.
Being lower detergents, you do have to change it more frequently though.
The cats? Who cares, I would rather replace them than the valvetrain (in the M96).
What's so hard to understand?
The dynamic or absolute viscosity:
τ = μ dc/dy (1)
where
τ = shearing stress
μ = dynamic viscosity
Equation (1) is known as the Newtons Law of Friction.
In the SI system the dynamic viscosity units are N s/m2, Pa s or kg/m s where
1 Pa s = 1 N s/m2 = 1 kg/m s
The dynamic viscosity is also often expressed in the metric CGS (centimeter-gram-second) system as g/cm.s, dyne.s/cm2 or poise (p) where
1 poise = dyne s/cm2 = g/cm s = 1/10 Pa s
For practical use the Poise is to large and it's usual divided by 100 into the smaller unit called the centiPoise (cP) where
1 p = 100 cP
Water at 68.4oF (20.2oC) has an absolute viscosity of one - 1 - centiPoise.
Kinematic Viscosity
is the ratio of absolute or dynamic viscosity to density - a quantity in which no force is involved. Kinematic viscosity can be obtained by dividing the absolute viscosity of a fluid with it's mass density
ν = μ / ρ (2)
where
ν = kinematic viscosity
μ = absolute or dynamic viscosity
ρ = density
In the SI-system the theoretical unit is m2/s or commonly used Stoke (St) where
1 St = 10-4 m2/s
Since the Stoke is an unpractical large unit, it is usual divided by 100 to give the unit called Centistokes (cSt) where
1 St = 100 cSt
1 cSt = 10-6 m2/s
Kinematic Viscosity will only determine how fast the oil will flow without pressure. Higher viscosity means oil will stay on components while engine is off, longer than a lower viscosity.
It is the Dynamic viscosity that determines how the oil protects the engine as it defines the extent of shearing while under pressure. Mayonaise has a higher Kinematic Viscosity than most oils yet its dynamic viscosity is lower.
Also look for a high HTHS rating.
awe - yea... ^^^^^^^
this would be the part where I get blamed for sitting on my a$$ and not researching -
Hey look, something shiny !!
BTW fwiw - I too am planning this retrofit bearing -
1999,
I know it's difficult, by try not to be a total a@@. Charles is not some amateur shmo off the street, and he was kind enough to chime in on this thread. Those kind of assinine comments are exactly why respected experts refuse to participate in our threads.
Yes, a fully warmed up engine if driven long enough can boil off a considerable amount of water.
But of course this water didn't collect all during the previous fully warmed up engine run time of 30 minutes.
If the engine is started and driven until fully warmed up and for some time after the amount of water the engine crankcase accumulates will be minimal.
But dare I say this type of usage is not as common as the other kind, which involves short trips, alot of cold starts and the engine and oil seldom get up to operating temperature and stay there long or long enough.
Shortly after I first got my 02 Boxster in Jan of 2002 -- when I lived in the mid-west -- I had the oil analyzed and IIRC -- I have the analysis report at home -- the water content was nearly 7%.
Granted this is high, higher than I thought it would be cause I drove my Boxster approx 10 miles to and from work at speeds from 30mph to 45mph.
After the analysis I started paying more attention to the coolant temperature and noted that in the cold weather at that time of year the coolant temperature didn't hardly get above 180F (and I did *NOT* use the in-dash gage for this but used an OBD scan tool to monitor actual coolant temperature in real-time) even after 10 miles of moderate driving.
Once every couple of weeks I'd drive 70+ miles at freeway speeds to my parent's house using the car. Even during these drives the coolant would barely climb into the mid-190F range. If I had the autoclimate control set to auto to keep the cabin warm and dry to avoid window fogging in the cold weather the electric radiator fans would run and keep engine coolant temperature way below 212F.
Now I know engine oil runs hotter than the coolant but these engines equipped with an oil heat exchanger which works to keep engine oil temperature lower than it would be otherwise.
As a result the coolant has to get pretty hot before I assume the engine oil temperature is at least water boiling hot. What I use is if the coolant temperature 212F or higher I assume the oil is at least that hot and thus any water in the oil being boiled away. But in the meantime that water is present and doing its worst.
Which is one of several reasons why I decided on following a 5K mile oil/filter service interval.
Sincerely,
Macster.
The oil runs about 10 degrees over the coolant temp, maybe more if in traffic in a tip car when the ATF builds extra heat that gets shed into the coolant as well.
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
