New Member! Need opinions on 1st Porsche!

Hello! I've been lurking and reading for awhile, but decided to finally join in the fun. A bit about myself: I'm a big car guy, building 60s/70s American muscle cars as a hobby, I'm an electrical engineer as my profession. I've always been an admirer of European auto scene, Porsche being at the top of my list, but have never gotten my feet wet with them yet. So, I've decided to buy my first Porsche! I've been reading a lot about all the issues with the M96 motors, 996 buyers guides, etc. I've narrowed my search to two, I'd like to know what you all think: 1999 C4 coupe, black/black 64k miles 6sp (original clutch) single owner clean carfax Nice paint/interior Tires 50% Engine feels strong Minor rear valence ding, windshield stone crack Xenon headlights, power seats At independent dealer (lots of Z06s, Audi's, Mercedes, etc.) Hair above $21k 1999 C2 Coupe, Silver/black 85k miles 6sp (clutch replaced at 65k) 2 owner (he bought it at a year old) Carfax unknown, but he says he's kept up the service intervals (need invoices) Excellent paint and interior Tires 50% or better (haven't seen it in person yet) Private seller $17k, might try to take it a little lower. Of course, I will still do a PPI with the one I choose to pursue. What do you think? I posted a few picts. In one, you can see my '70 Mustang Mach1 I drove to go Porsche shopping! Lol! Also, is can you tell how much clutch is left by how far the pedal travels before it grabs? The C4 grabs with the pedal way off the floor. TIA everyone!!

I have not driven a C4 so I am bias to the C2, but I like the looks of the C4 better in your 2 examples.... Better color, better lights, seriously needs the paint detailed correctly though - and black is a son of a biatch to keep the scraches off What are your plans for the car? daily driver, fun, weekends, dog hauler ? LOL both prices make me sick - $17 for a clean sounding C2 is frickin nuts low!!! (even if it looks like a Boxster ) clutch works, then doesnt - span of time is driver dependant

I agree - I think the black one looks better, and it has lower miles. I like the C4. As you noted, it probably will need a clutch soon, but when you buy a 996 it always needs something soon. Don't let that discourage you.

Don't be afraid to keep looking. Lots of choices out there. I wouldn't get a C4 because of the additional weight and it's just another component system that could break/need servicing. The tail lights on the c2 are rough looking. The hunt for a P car is simple, you will know which one to get when it is the only car that matters. (oh, and it passes a PPI)

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do you have to keep rubbing that PPI in my face !!! J/K - well , sort of

It's all about the option sticker when buying used, and for the options on these cars the prices are too high. Keep looking as the fall price drop is coming.

Thanks for all the input folks. The problem is, I agree with every one of you! Lol! I agree the black does look good (well, it would with a full buff/detail), but silver would stay "cleaner" longer. All that aside, the drivetrain is my biggest concern. I've never bought a used car as anything other than a project car. But, other than a PPI and the word of the previous owner(s), all you can do is say a prayer and take whatever maintenance issues pop up. Can PPIs really turn up obscure drivetrain issues? Or is it mainly "ball joints are warn, transmission shifts OK with no noises..." or can they look into the computer for codes on high-rpm and vigorous driving (like the later TT cars can???). EastBay, from the prices I'm seeing, these seem not too bad, especially the C4. Do the prices really fall during the fall? Hey, Ivangene, I saw another post where you offered to go look at a P for a guy, that was close to where you live. That was very cool of you. Right on.

I say find a C2 in the color you want with more options! That silver C2 looks to be lacking in options (17" wheels, plain headlights). The C4 looks like it has more options, and a clean carfax, so it wins this shootout. But still, you get what you pay for. Why would someone ask only $21k for a clean C4?

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Well, this is a dealer (non-Porsche) who originally posted it for sale at $24k, and has now raised it to $25k since I've been talking with him. I told him about the others that I'm considering that are cheaper, and that I'd do $21k. He wasn't too thrilled, and said he doesn't want to break even, and that he might do a hair above that if I'm there in person and ready. I figure he'd rather make some money than wait for top dollar, since he has lots of cars he's selling at any given time. Who knows though. Thoughts?? I agree, the C4 is optioned better. Forgot to say it also has the carbon fiber interior vanity pieces (but I don't really care, that's sort of "boy racer" stupid to me). Also, what do you all think about an extended warranty? He offers a free 6mo warranty, and then I can purchase an extended thru PVP (Peaples's Vehicle Protection), or AUL Corp, with coverage for costs up to NADA book price on the car, for about $3500 more. $$ keep adding up, but that's OK if I'm in the "right" car! I appreciate all of your input too, BTW.

Try and find a car that has had a remanufactured Porsche engine installed or one with a good aftermarket warranty. Here's one: http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail...5&aff=national

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To me, this is what you want to RUN from! Extremely high miles, rust, junk wheels. You have to remember that a car with high miles will have a worn interior, even if the engine has been replaced. Stick with the lower mile cars!

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Lol! I actually called that guy! I wasn't too thrilled with what he had to say, and in the end, agree with everything AndyK said. But that said, if a car had 60k miles on the chassis, but had a new P crate motor installed at, say, 40k, that might be a good thing.

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True, at 60k. At over 100k, other parts start wearing out, suspension bits, interior switches and such, etc. When I bought my car at 17k miles, it smelled new, felt new, and still does! You can't ever get that back if you buy a high miles car. Unless you don't care about stuff like that. Up to you. The old addage was "get the newest Porsche you can afford". Not sure if that still applies when there are sub-$20k cars out there!

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Ideally yes, but it is going to be in a higher price range than the cars you posted.

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I've seen some very clean high mileage (highway) 996's. A '99 with low mileage is not a necessarily a good thing. How about these: Rennlist member - renn911 $23,900 - Lowering price before ebay. 1999 C2 � Silver with grey interior, 67K well cared for miles with 12K on an OEM motor from the factory. This motor is a complete assembly which means everything is new! It was replaced by the previous owner under warranty. When I had a PPI done by Champion Porsche in Fort Lauderdale the service manager pointed out that the only thing transferred over with an OEM engine replacement are the mufflers. The clutch was replaced at that time as well. The total invoice was ~$13K. This car is in amazing condition and needs nothing. The service manager at Champion was very impressed with the car as am I. If you have any other questions please give me a call or email. No accidents or paint work. Long time PCA member. Options listed below. C02 catalytic converter X72 Gear shift in light burr walnut with aluminum inlay and leather X91 Hand brake lever in light burr walnut with aluminum inlay and leather 220 Locking (Limited Slip) differential 222 Traction control system 224 Active Brake Differential 424 Automatic heating control 490 Hi-Fi sound system 688 Radio CD CDR210 09991 manufacture from the exclusive-programme Porsche six disk CD changer Asking $23,900. Walter [phone removed] cell Rennlist member - Ahmet 1999 Porsche 911 C2 with GT3 suspension, remanufactured engine, etc. Very solid 1999 996 for sale. Very well maintained. Has a factory reman'd motor, about 3 years old. Car has 80k miles. Has full GT3 suspension (gt3 coil overs with monoball strut mounts up front) and sway bars, adjustable drop links and GT3 brake ducts, etc. Great color combo, blue on gray, routinely gets compliments. Has many desirable options including LSD/defeatable traction control along with leather covered dash -looks/feels much better than base, and the better stereo. I am the third owner. Currently has a factory roll bar, 6 point harnesses, and carbon fiber bucket race seats (GT3 style), and many other modifications like cooling ducts. Also included will be a nearly new set of Pagid Yellow brake pads (factory pads also included), it's got lots of recent maintenance including new rotors/pads/tires all around, motor mounts (solid rubber like GT3), accessory belt, oil change, spark plug tubes, plugs, etc. etc. The car handles/brakes, and generally drives amazing. It's a perfectly suitable every day car, and is great fun and fast on track. Doesn't use ANY oil or smoke, pulls smoothly and strong, starts right up every time. Stock seats will be included as well. I'm probably going to replace it with a GT3. Anyway, I just reduced my asking price to $22,500 but price is flexible depending on what the buyer wants included in the purchase price. Here's a couple of pictures:

In reading a recent "Excellence" publication I recall a very detailed disucssion on the 1999-2001 3.4L and the 2002-2004 3.6L. I recall that there was some concern about the 1999 model year but the 2000 and 2001 had resolved the issues, e.g RMS. While I very much enjoy my 2001 Carerra which I have turned into a track vehicle, I would go for the 2002-2004 3.6L based on the good pricing available in this market. And it has a glove box! Check out the post below. That seems good especially with the BREMBO GT brakes! https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...s-2002-c2.html

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I like this one!

Thanks, Jmla, those are some good data points to have. I might check into them. I saw an '01 in silver, decently optioned, 49k miles, for $23.5k. Called on it, and it was gone. That was a good deal. So does blue book really not reflect the true price? Those above have new motors, so a higher price can be gotten, but '99 C2s with that kind of millage KBBs in the $17k's.

I too have seen prices all over the map, I don't think many private party sellers are following KBB values at this time. For example, here is a uniquely optioned '99 (original motor) for $32K: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/a...99-996-c2.html

After my 1999 had a new engine at 50K miles because of the intermedate shaft breaking . If you look into information on any porsche 996 engine production date of 1998, stay away. Relacement costs 10-15k today. Spend the extra $$ as insurance look for a 2000-2001 an up many to choose from today. Good luck wish someone gave me this advice 4 years ago.

That special optioned '99 is pretty bad *ss! I really dig that rear spoiler. Can someone tell me what cars came with what, and what could be had from Porsche? I see TT cars with the extra spoilers, C2s with "OEM Porsche Aero kits" installed, but don't know what's legit and what is plastic/'glass-bargain-basement-cheesy-boy-racer garbage. I dig the look, but only want true P hardware. Sorry for the newbie question, but, I'm a newbie! (but if any of you have any early Mustang questions I'm your guy! Lol!) I'm getting very nervous about any '99 now. Yes, "get the newest Porsche you can afford", but if you can't afford something outside of some of these issue-prone years, maybe it's best to "get the newest Porsche you can afford, as long as it's an '00 or newer". Haa!

Also, keep in mind late '99s have clear lenses and were obviously later on the production line. Mine goes like new, even though I drive 'er hard.....

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Interesting Meister Fahrer, I like learning the details. I thought the clear lenses were an indication of the Xenon headlight option. I'm really leaning towards an '01-03 now. Wow how things have crept! I started out with "I'll drop $13k on a little Boxster and have to some fun", to "wow, B's are not nearly the machine 911's are, I'll do that for $17-$23k instead", to now, "sh*t, I'm up to $30k+ for the car I want!" LOL! But that's the way it goes, you get what you pay for. And 911's really are one of the best sports cars out there. We'll see if I can pull this off with the economy tugging at my wallet!

also remember not all warranties are the same, a lot of them are rubbish that will deny half the claims you make, i wouldnt be swayed to buy an particular car just because they offer a warranty, unless it a porsche cpo i would look into the various aftermarket companies such as easycare and then once you have bought your perfect car then buy an aftermarket warranty good luck

Yeah, that's very true. I'm glad there are after-the-buy warranties, I thought most had to be done thru dealerships. I just found this little guy. I've always liked 911s with spoilers/wings, aero kits, slant-nose kits, etc. Yellow is a bit flashy for my taste, but I still think it looks really good. Don't know much about how it's optioned yet, I'm in dialog with the guy now. But it's a 48k mile 2001, C4, 6sp, (need to get a carfax on it), asking $29k. It's a ways away, but I can hoof it up there to take a look.

well dont ask my opinion - I like shiny... and its SHINY !! - beautiful, where is the car

carfax doesnt always show everything, my friends car has clean carfax but has been in 2 crashes, a ppi from a good porsche specialist and dme report is a must when buying one of these cars yellow is not my taste but it looks very nice and shiny

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Haa! Well, I must say, Ivangene, the pict of your car is GORGEOUS!! You can't tell where the surface of the car is, it's just ink black as far as you look; you could dive into it! Makes the picts of the C4 I posted look like a garbage can. Lol!! The yellow car is in So Cal, where I live. It's about 100 miles away though, so it's a big drive. Uggg. But, on my motorcycle, gas is cheap at 58mpg. But it's a sports bike, so not very comfy for 100 miles! What's the deal with the aero kits? What did the kit include besides the rear spoiler and rocker panels? I dig it though!! I saw one with a different front facia, and also little flappy things attached to the rear quarter panels down real low, neither of which I think this one has (can't see the front nose though). Fair price you think? Hard to tell, I guess, until I drive it, see how it's been maintained, and see what options it has.

What's the deal with the aero kits? What did the kit include besides the rear spoiler and rocker panels? I dig it though!! I saw one with a different front facia, and also little flappy things attached to the rear quarter panels down real low, neither of which I think this one has (can't see the front nose though). there are more then one kind of aero kit. c2's 2wd narrow body are 99-01 MKI and 2002 +are MKII c4's are awd and are wide body like the turbos the aero kits are usually gt2 aero style kits but some are gt3 aero kits the ones with the flaps on the rear bumper are gt3 if i remember right there is also OEM porsche aero kits and non OEM so check sticker for the OEM AERO versus fiberglass aftermarket knock offs on a c4 you can make it RWD only if thats your choice PSM still works in this mode too but ona c2 its not possible without hacking or major work to make it wide body or awd the c4 hold more value from what ive seen they cost more and are a good allweather car PPI's major points are checking the problems with these cars RMS clutch issues Durametric scan of the ECU for Stage I and Stage II events (stage one is hitting fuel cut) stage 2 is from downshifting say from 6th to 2nd instead of 4th and mechanically over reving the engine. checking the coolant tanks for cracking etc. dash pad for feeling, the normal curbed wheels and tire depth (remember tires arent cheap on these but u can get a set of good sumitomo tires for 800$ for 4)

Thanks Os Inspector!! That's great info! Does it look like the aero kit are factory pieces? I took pictures of the embossing under the engine cover. Says made in France. I have no idea, I'm learning. I also took other picts around the wing too. It's all fiberglass, and you can see a little ding where a a clearance groove is cut. Also, the "Carrera" badge was broken when (I assume) moving it from the old engine cover to this one. Care is CLEAN!!! It looks brand new inside and out, not a ding or blemmish anywhere! Drives like new too, shifts clean, has ample power etc. I love it! Has brand spanking new Porsche 18" wheels and Continental rubber, that the previous owner split with the Porsche dealer 50/50 , cause what was on there was "unsafe" 19" wheels with non N-rated rubber (??) Tire grooves are as deep as the grand canyon. 48k miles on the car. It was purchased from a Porsche dealer, and I looked over the Porsche inspection report. Other than the tires, they noticed an engine oil leak, and I need to look closer if they repaired it or not. Last page shows a check box that the engine leaks. I'm assuming RMS, but all this came from Porsche before they sold it, so I assume everything was fixed. I'll have to double check. I want to try and get it for $28k if I can, but $29 is what it's listed for. What do you guys think??? BTW, you're all awesome, giving me so much help and direction.

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wow - I like it!!! Bud I'd ditch the rear space shuttle wing. That's a nice car. You could sell the spoiler and get a new deck lid no prob. Too bad the front bumper is not cut out for a third radiator. I love cars that are 'real' colors - just like olde dayz.

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the kit most likely in not factory - I am no expert on these but something says "fiberglass" = not Porsche - if the fit is good and its done rigth, I would not be too worried about it. though factory is the best many people have good success AFTER many hours of fit up with the fibergalss the second part sounds like a line - ? 19 / non N-specs dangerous... well I am not sure.... wheels and tires from china dangerous.. OK maybe... cracked bend and out of round - dangerous, oh yea ! - there is more to that story oil leaks from MANY spots on cars.. RMS is one, but there are plenty of other places to leak... dont assume... KNOW ! OKO so whats with the paint issues on the rear badge - to hell with the badge, those are cheap - the paint behind the badge is what I would be red flaggine - The MKI aero kit has rear side wings (I am currently watching for some) They take a while to grow on some people but I have learned to really like the look and for that car it would be the finishing touch to the "whole kit" - IMO the car is nice looking the way it is - have a professional look at the paint and fit up of those pieces - if not done right, you will be really upset when you come to the realization on your own...... Loose the space shuttle wing ? ? ? - I would love to have that wing (if it were OEM) on my car - also the skirts and like I said rear little bumper wings - this is how the wings look when done right IMO +1 for get the PPI before falling in love - but its beautiful !!

You better be double sure you love Speed Yellow! Great looking car, but I'm a fan of boring colors! Seems like a great price to me. Like everyone has said, check out where the leak is, and if it was repaired. If you crave a car that screams "look at ME!", this is the one!

Thanks Ivangene and Andy. Yeah, that 'unsafe' wheel thing doesn't seem right. At least it was bought as a CPO from Porsche. Porsche also said it needed an alignment during that time, which they did, and took pictures of the adjustment points, printed them, and included them with the docs this guy has. I assumed the wing was fiberglass, but all I know is that it's not metal. The OEM pieces can't be metal, can they? Because this one is a Turnwald piece, doesn't that say it's an OEM part? It doesn't say if it was factory or dealer installed, though. I really want only OEM parts on this car, dealer installed or not. A PPI is going to happen at a Porsche dealer up where the car is, for the tune of $300 (my tab of course). They and the car are 80 miles from me, so I'm going to call them today, let me know about me, and have them fill me in on the phone after it's done, as well as fax me the report. Barring no problems with the PPI, the seller agreed to the $28k price, too. Still, it's a long way from where I started out, saying I'll toss down $14k for a Boxster! LOL! But, this is so much more car. I'm getting the "what am I doing??!" anxiety though, lots of money to throw around in this economy! Oh well, you only live once. Yellow certainly is a bold Porsche statement! I love it! So, still concerned about the aero kit NOT being OEM pieces (any way to tell for sure?) and that weird gray paint under the "C" on the cracked Carrera badge (see previous picts a few entries back), and the "oil leak". But, the PPI should flesh out the leak. Any and all input is appreciated! Thanks guys!

I see that the wing has a Porsche part number, so it's real. This lid/wing is one of the only fiberglass parts on a OEM 996, the front bumper and side skirts are polyurethane. It's possible that these pieces were added after the car left the factory.

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Thanks Jmla, I was hoping that was the case. Only issues I have left are why there is that gray material (paint) under the "C" on the Carrera badge, and the oil leak. I'll see what the PPI says about both.

OK, two big red flags, everything else is minor or normal wear items. I asked them to do the ECU scan that Os Inspector suggested (thank you Os!!) Full report below, but here are the flags: Stage 1 engine codes (explained below): 39,000! Stage 2 engine codes (explained below): 0 Trans 2nd gear syncro is going out (downshifting from 3rd to 2nd is when you feel/hear it) What do you guys think? Full report below. I haven't talked to the owner yet to digest any of this stuff. Before the PPI he accepted my $28k offer, from his listing of $29k. Now we dicker more, if I even feel I want it anymore. Very sad. The Concerns 1) Slight oil sweating towards upper cam cover on right hand side of motor, mostly dried. a. Normal, not indicative of anything wrong 2) Can’t check the IMS ‘life’ without a tear down of the engine 3) Stored engine codes: a. Stage 1 events: 39,000 (crap!) i. Each time a cylinder fires when the engine is above its redline limit (between 7.3krpm and 7.9krpm), it;'s counted as one event. So, quick calculation for the amount of time the engine spent above redline is: (39000 events / 6cyl)*(2 rev / event)*(1min / 7.3krev) = 1.78minutes. So the motor spent almost 2 full minutes above its redline limit in total. b. Range 2 events: 0 (thank goodness) i. Events above 7.9krpm 4) Clutch is worn, but still grabbing, should be good for ‘awhile’. Probably 70-80% life left 5) No maintenance booklet available, so don’t know what services have, or have not, been done. Below are normal services possibly needed. a. Oil, oil filter, air filter, pollen filter regular b. Brake fluid flushed (every 2yrs) c. Air bag service done every (4 yrs) 6) Brakes a. Front needs new rotors (measured 26.2mm, need replacing at 26mm) at which time new pads too. b. Rears are fine 7) When car doors lock, so does the gas filler door. Needs a $2 guide clip that is missing. 8) Window regulators are wearing, such that you can press down and force the windows down about �”. This means the auto-lowering of the windows when you open a door will stop working at some point (to much backlash) and the glass will catch on the upper car frame. a. Will need replacing in the next year, 2.5hrs labor to fix one side. 9) Transmission has 2nd gear syncro issue. When downshifting from 3rd to 2nd at any appreciable speed, there is a “grind and clunk”. Upshifting is fine. a. New transmission (only what Porsche has) is $11k plus labor. Regular trans shop should be able to rebuild the trans for cheaper. 10) Electrical issues a. He couldn’t hear the radio buzz/whine that is engine rpm dependent. Oh well. b. Headlight gave a elect fault code on the auto moving feature, but headlights still light and function. The Good, and the easy cosmetic fixes 11) Coolant tank is fine, no cracks 12) Aero kit is all Porsche factory OEM parts, whether dealer installed or not, don’t know. I don’t really care since it’s all OEM and a great job was done. 13) The gray substance ozzing out from the “C” in the Carrera badge is the adhesive for the emblem. Probably oozing out cause the emblem is cracked. $32 for a new one. 14) Other than what is listed, the car seems to be in very good shape.

I think I should have had a ppi done

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DUH!!! Sorry Ed, but I couldn't pass on that one!