Kicking the tail out

I'm debating between a RWD and AWD 996. How easy is it to catch a RWD if the tail kicks out? Does it just slide out slowly or does it just break loose? Also, how is the tread life on RWD vs. AWD? I heard RWD is every 10k miles or so. Is it the same for AWD or can you get more life out of them? I had an old '01 CLK55 and my rear tires usually lasted 12-15k and that was nice and easy driving 95% of the time.

I was able to "kick the tail out" this morning on the way to work - Love to do that once in a while and I would say with practice it is predicable and preventable if desired either way.... no AWD experience - cant say about them

Whether or not the rear breaks loose is more a function PSM than AWD. How quickly and whether or not it is salvageable depends on how quickly the limit of adhesion is approached. Approach it too quickly and you will spin (even in an AWD). Same with tread wear... has less to do with AWD than with driving style. AWD will help you with longitudinal traction (better than 2WD on a slippery surface, incline, etc.), and has inherent strengths in terms of overall stability, but IMO, you have to turn PSM off in order to really understand how AWD helps. If you're looking to prevent unexpected loss of grip at the rear, put your faith in PSM and buy a RWD. There are other reasons to buy an AWD, but this is not one of them.

From my own experience (some DE and autoX) I'd say as far as oversteer is concerned, the AWD and RWD pretty similar in how they handle. The viscous slip center diff is 95% rear and 5% front under non-slipping conditions. Trailing throttle oversteer, trailing brake oversteer, I feel it's about the same between the RWD and AWD (as expected I suppose). With power on, I feel the AWD has a tendency to push a bit more (understeer) on tight autoX turns. With power on oversteer I don't feel one is easier to correct than the other, but with the AWD going around a corner (expecially if it's slippery) I feel I have a tad more grip accelerating out of the corner. I would expect tire wear to be about the same RWD v. AWD. On a C4 the fronts will last about 2X the rears under normal street conditions.

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or accelerating out of a corner going uphill. this has been my experience as well.

If you haven't had any problem controlling rear traction in your ML CLK55, then you won't have any problems with a 2WD Carrera. I would avoid the weight penalty of the 4WD system unless you really NEED to be able to hustle the car in slippery conditions. And yes, it is totally "catchable" once you do finally exceed the limits... See below:

That's a great shot, Quick. D2k, you might also looks for cars with LSD. If you're in Washington state, that would give you more control, i.e. you can turn off traction control / PSM and blast through the snow.... In my C2, I've done auto-x where I was sliding (less angle than above), but on a completely flat track. I've also got a couple favorite wide corners between home & office. From what I've read, LSD is also beneficial in catching a slide under braking as both rear wheels act together giving more control. Also much less push with the rear-motor....fun stuff.

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In Washington, you will probably be better off with the C4/C4S. Tire wear is really dependent on your driving style, tire compound and alignment. Rears will last about 1/2 as long as fronts, but you may be able to flip the tires to give them a little more life. No car will simply "break free." You have to be doing something to get it there. Depending on loading, friction, speed, etc, it might be fast or it might be slow. And "tail wagging" is not always a bad thing. A refined use of the throttle with the tail breaking free incrementally can actually make you faster in some corners [aka throttle steering]. -td

I've thought about the C4/C4S as well. I'm assuming they drive similarly to the C2 under normal conditions or can the extra weight be felt? I'm dying to test drive some but I already got shot down for a test drive at a dealer because he didn't think I was serious (kind of a d-bag dealership anyways). Not too many clean examples available for test driving around me though but I'm sure I'll find a few soon enough.

With the exception of while accelerating through a 90 degree turn I have never kicked the tail out on my car. I'd chalk up the one experience I just mentioned to driver stupidity rather than the car.

Just a small FYI detail for the OP: the front trunk of the C4/C4S is smaller than the 2WD Carrera's. Compare the two side by side if you can. It's a significant difference.

Whatever car you decide on, do some autox in it to get a feel for how the car handles when you push it. Better to learn there in controlled conditions rather than a fight for survival on the street if you hit a slippery patch in a turn. Autox was the first thing I did in my GT3 when I got it. Then when I got a feel for the car I took it to the track. Now there's no turning back. Cheers,

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For everyday street driving most people do not notice the extra weight: AWD = 132 lbs (about the weight of your girlfriend) Extra weight of C4S over C2 = 275 lbs (about the weight of your fat drinking buddy) Where you do notice it is on the main straight of the track. The C4 cab is a big fat pig and pretty much the only P-cars I am passing are the Boxsters (if you don't get the courtesy throttle lift).

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+1 on the AX recommendation. It's the best way to learn car control and handling of your porsche.

D2k - there is an autocross on the 5th in Bremerton - come have a look....you will see some interesting things.,...if you come late (after 3 pm) we open it up and have "fun runs" thats when you get to see some laughing and driving that might not classify as fast... but sure as heck is fun... -though we try and keep to the core of going quick and smooth

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Man, sounds like fun. I won't be free until after 2pm that Saturday though so probably won't be able to make the trek out to Bremerton (I've never even been to Bremerton!). If you know of any others closer to the eastside definitely let me know.

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A common misconception is that one can detect the penalty even if they are not a professional race car driver. The truth is closer to Smackboy's post: except the part about the main straight, that is But don't take my word for it, see for yourself via the video link in this post: https://rennlist.com/forums/6843073-post18.html watch the C4 pull away from a race prepped spec 996 at 1:45, and then watch it in the mirror from 6:11 through the main straight to 6:29 and it is still the same distance behind the spec 996. This is in the top run group, so the other drivers are no slouches. Just proves that few of us can drive these cars well enough to let 132 lbs get in the way of buying the car you want.

I had the tail out once in my 40th, it was my first (and so far only) DE and I was accelerating (in the wet) on an uphill right hand turn. It stepped out quick and I recovered and kept accelerating before I had a chance to think about it. I've also done one autocross and the tail was always firmly planted but it was a fairly slow (2nd gear) course. I don't know enough about driving dynamics to speak intelligently about it but my 40th does have a limited slip differential so maybe that helped me out.

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I agree. What my post intended to convey was not contradictory to your post above or Smackboy's. Rather, it was to say: "You don't need hiking boots if all you're doing is going for a walk on the beach." That's what I meant by "avoid the weight penalty unless your really NEED to be able to hustle the car in slippery conditions." I time trial my C2 competitively, so weight is my number 2 enemy (after lack of talent). That tends to color my judgment about the value of avoiding 132lbs of extra weight. I recently removed 75lbs from my car, and my track laptimes improved... so that conveys something to me.

Bremerton is all we have unless you go to Pacific Raceways... but thats a differant ball game there (DE lapping days) - next month is Women only and trust me I WILL BE VOLUNTEERING for that one and then November is the last one - man.... another year gone by Ed

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Your fuel tank holds about 140 lbs of gasoline. Run close to empty, and you'll be down more like 200 lbs. Depending on where you took out the weight, it could also be the balance of the car that changed, leading to handling characteristics that suit your driving style better. By the way, unsprung weight is where the penalty is real. If I recall correctly, stock wheels will add up to 120 or so lbs? Get that down to a 100 (just 20 lbs difference), and the difference will be dramatic. Buy some lightweight wheels if you're really serious about tackling the weight aspect. You won't be disappointed.

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Trust me when I say you are preaching to the choir here! I've got '02 lightweight wheels for the street and CCW C10's for the track. Each set is 80lbs for all four wheels combined. In summer I syphon the 1.5 gals of washer fluid out of the tank to save 12lbs. I remove the floor mats (5 lbs!). I have removed every trace of the stereo. I put in GT3 seats. When I do timed runs on track, the fuel light comes on about 1/2 way through my first lap. Etc. Etc. So, I'm "postal" about weight. And it pays off on the track. But I agree for most owners, for street driving, it's only gonna be noticable if you are talking about differences of 250lbs or more. And in a rainy or snowy climate, a C4 would be the natural choice.

The PS2s on my C4S tip have 21k miles on them now, and should be good for another 4-5k.

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Battery replacement is another big hitter. And don't forget the back seats. The bottoms are pretty light, but I'm guessing that the seat backs are worth another 25 lbs, from a fairly high center of gravity.

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You're obviously not driving the car hard enough.

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That could be true, except everytime I drive it hard I break out in a ticket!