Going to 996 from BMW M3

Having had an M3 for some time now (2001, E46), I have been busy searching for that perfect 996, C4S or TT. Looking for car that can really still burn it up when it's pouring and sometimes snowing here in Pacific NW. PSM seems a great thing in my climate. And of course, there's nothing like a sports car built from scratch versus a sports coupe built from a standard passenger car origin, although the M3 is very well put together, handles quite well, and with an incredible sounding and revving engine. If I find a TT and bite the bullet and do it, that's a no brainer: the performance will be an giant bump up. What if I find the 996 C4S (Silver, Boxster red or black interior, 6spd) which has similar specs and performance as the BMW M3 (at least in dry numbers): 333 vs 315 HP, accelerations of 0-60 in the low 5s. Has anyone gone from the latest version of M3 to a 996 recently? What do you love about the 996, and what do you miss (if anything) about the M3? Of course there are obvious differences: AWD vs RWD, rear engine vs front, real backseats vs emergency seats.... What about acceleration, handling, everyday drivability? I don't have to ask you about the coolness factor, as I know the answer already: M3 is very cool, but Porsche is the epitome of cool (well, Porsche and Aston Martin DB4). I have driven a 996 C4S very briefly and it was not a very healthy example. The shifter was mushy, and the car reeked of cigarette or cheap cologne. It had cheapy chrome brand-X wheels. I will consider that a mulligan. I am still looking and looking....

i just sold my e46 M3 for a 02 C4S and they are very different. just do a search, you'll see this has been discussed MANY times already. good luck!

Just moved from a 2002 M3 to a 2003 Targa about 6 weeks ago. The M was a very torquey high reving engine but the p-car seems to have more seemless power delivery across the powerband. I find I spend more time in lower gears in the Porsche than I did with the M. I have a short shifter in my car and I think it's awesome. I loved the M's box as well but this one is more fun, but less forgiving especially on downshifts. I used to like to downshift into turns and this gearbox seems to resist me more than the M's did. I have to convince it I know what I'm doing. lol. I have RWD so I can't help you out with AWD but I will say that on wet surface the RWD seemed very planted. It helps to have the engine sitting on the rear axle. Overall, the feeling on the road is very different but as I've gotten used to it more I have to say that the 996 handles better. Now I haven't taken this car to the track yet so I can't really give a valid opinion on how this car handles when really pushed. I did take the M to the track and I remember it as a car that was well past my capabilities. The harder I pushed it the more it asked "Dat all you got?" Interiorwise, I think the M was nicer. Neither company really tries to pamper you but BMW is far less chincy on interior materials. They both still need to get a clue as far as soundystem, cupholders and number of cigarette lighters (outlets) are concerned but really, that's all secondary. I love the seating position of the 996 but the nonvertically adjustable steering wheel is a bit of a pain. My wife has already asked me several times if it was worth it to move over to the 996. I have to say yes, it is , for me, a far superiour drivers car but they really are very different animals. I wish I could have kept both.

jayfunk, I tried the search but the search engine considered the term "M3" to be "too short" and was not searched. What are YOUR thoughts on your switch from E46 M3 to C4S, the exact switch I am contemplating? Thanks for your input 03Targa. I have a feeling they will be very different also. I do enjoy the M3's driving experience. The nice Nappa leather interior in my M3 does not hurt either. I am trying to convince my wife to have the M3 as her daily driver, save the Subie Outback for when she's hauling our child, and then we can keep both.

i say you can't go wrong either way.... they are different animals and it depends what you are looking for... my brother has an 02 M3 and i like it a lot..... a little bit more refine then my 996..... but when it comes to driving and how i feel behind then wheel..... the 996 trumps the M...... it's more of a drivers car and the way it handles is much more precise..... of course my 996 has an upgraded suspension which makes it even better, it still feels and drive nicer then the M........ in terms of civility, i think the m is a better choice...... if i want to go from point a to b, and i really don't want to pay attention to the road and just drive, the M is much nicer of a car, and if i really want to feel the road and wear myself out......... i'd take the P car.....

I mostly agree with you but not the "wear myself out" part. Example, last week I had to drive to Phoenix after taking call and getting maybe 2 hours of sleep. The more I drove the more awake and invigorated I became. The car completely woke me up as it connected me to the driving experience. I imagine if that had been a longer drive than 2 hours I might have hit a pretty big wall but for that short drive, the car provided a boost that the M just didn't do for me anymore.

Went from e46 M3 to C4S. M3 was more practical but i LOVE the C4S. There is just something about it that makes me so happy (more than the M3). Doesn't feel as quick at first (especially with the M3 on the "sport" mode) but once you get used to it, it makes it up. I also live in Toronto so needless to say that in the rain or in the snow, there is no contest.

The M3 will never have the sound, steering, and the mechanical feel of the 911 and vice versa. The 911 is definitely the more sporting of the two.

And that 50/50 neutral handling business is boring as all get out.

Heel/Toe is your friend. If you don't do it, you are wearing out the synchros needlessly.

I agree with P_S's statement that you can't go wrong. All of the cars you mention are excellent, just different. I went from an 01 996 C4 to an 04 996 C4S to an 02 E46 M3 to a 04 996 GT3. I loved every one of them, but I liked the Porsches better. I never took the M3 to the track because it rolled a lot around turns on the street, and I have a race car that needed more attention (read $$) last year so I did not set up the M3 for track work. Speaking only from a stock setup perspective--because I have seen some very well prepped M3s--Porsches that I have driven handle better than the E46 M3 I had. The only reasons I miss the M3 are (a) I don't drive the GT3 in snowy/salty weather (no undercoating), (b) while my winter car is reasonably fast it is nowhere near an M3 and (c) the GT3 has no back seats so I cannot take my 4 year old daughter in the with me (I don't want to risk it with her in the front around Boston). My opinion is that the C4S is the ultimate daily driver but the weight is a tradeoff on the track, if you do that kind of thing (which I hope everyone here at least tries). And, if you are a track junkie, don't mind a solid ride around town and any other issues (like mine listed above), you can pick up a used GT3 for somewhere near the ballpark of a nice 996 Turbo. Then, buy a beater for the lousy weather. Ahhh, options, options. Good luck!

m3's blahhh! slow cars built from rock salt.

I would be willing to work out a trade...I have a 99 Techart 911 C4...a few mods...I had an 03 e46m3 and kind of miss it...plus, I have had the P for almost 2 years now!!! That is a record!

I agree. I have driven a 993, and really liked the go-kart-like direction-changing immediacy. The M3 is very very good, and acceleration can be incredible (and that pipe-organ engine sound!) but nothing can match the rear-engine/rear-drive feel. Is the C4S RWD most of the time, and then depending on conditions and amount of traction available derive torque to the front during the times of need? Do you C4 owners feel the AWD difference compared to say a C2 during normal driving conditions? And as for the guy who wrote that the M3 is a "slow car built from rock salt" or something like that: I just KNEW there'd be sixth-graders with the mindset of "my car is the world's best and all else are crap" lurking on this forum and a thread like this will invariably and unfortunately draw them out!

2 years ago, I traded in my '04 M3 on a 40th Anniversary 996 (with the 345 HP X51 motor). The M was easier to drive fast and of course had more space, but the 911 is hands-down faster (much better midrange torque), more involving with telepathic steering feel, and has much less body roll in corners. It's also about 400 pounds lighter, which doesn't hurt.

I was looking at an M3 or a 996, I never did test drive a M3 but I do have to say that the threads that discuss the "feel" of a 996 are so true. I had a quick juant to work this evening to pick something up and when I hit the on ramp to I-10 in heavy traffic. I knew where I was. Knew where I was going. To the point where the guy behind me in the middle knew ahead of time where I wanted to go and waved me in. It's like chess and you're thinking three moves ahead. I would like to point out that I was travelling faster than usual but not beyond the SMWLIH (Soccer Mom with Latte in hand)..... It's a great car for feel. I love my car and what it is about. But I'd trade it for a GT2 in a heartbeat. $hit don't say it too loud...... When I told my wife about the M3 she said "Ed, you've been looking at P-cars for ten years, and you want to buy a ****ing Bimmer?" Yes, she's a little rough around the edges, but I love her.

Well, Ed, I hear what your wife is saying. Even if the M3 is not just any "f@#king Bimmer," it still ain't the Porsche. And I am afraid that as long as I have the M3 I will always be looking at the Porsches, as you did for ten years. Probably still at the 993 and 996 versions; the 997 still has not grown on me, though the reviews are glowing.

i'm looking to go from an M3 to a 911 widebody, but not based on some myopic love for the stud garden badge. my M3 was lowered, corner balanced with some quality adjustable coilovers riding on some sticky bridgestone tires on 19" BBS LMs. it's a super smooth car with a celebrated inline 6 engine that just purrs. steering feel was nothing to write home about but that's all relative. the E46 M3 looks are absolutely spot on esp with the wheels and lowering. it's a classic looker that got a lot of love from me and the viewing public. brakes stick good too for street use. clutch, tranny was good but like the 911, an ssk is necessary. i'm excited about the E92 M3. it's going to be a beast. with all that said, the traditional BMW inline 6 thrum just doesn't differentiate itself as special from any other engine be it the V10 M5/M6 engine, F20C, the LS6/7 et al. however, the porsche watercooled 911 boxer engine coming from the back is just so unique you really can't mod that into any other car. its combination of intake, exhaust, tranny, engine noise is where the water-cooled 911 makes it $$. the feel of the clutch and SSKed stick along with the precision steering, the sound it makes as you make all the actions to move the car forward.... that's what i couldn't shake and that's why the M3 is outta the garage and i'm hunting for a widebody naturally aspirated 996. i also buy into the 911 heritage. how they kept to the turtle shape for so many years. the flat six and the improvements. and the brakes, not only do they stop ya nicely, but they look good too without having to resort to some aftermarket bbk like on the M cars (even the freakin' $100K M6). i still have much love for BMW M and i already miss my M3, but for now i'm going to fly high with the 911 and see where it takes me.

My great admiration for BMW and the M cars abruptly ends with the E46 M3 and the 2000-2003 M5. The new M5 has a Tupperware for a trunk lid and ugly "eagle eyes" for headlamps. The M6 is a graceless bloated boat. BMW has lost its ways. It's getting some of it back with the brand new M3, but the new 3 series is a dead ringer for a 1990's Honda Civic if viewed from behind. I have not driven the new M cars, but much has been made of their artificially enhanced steering. Plus there is no way I am going to waste money on a car with designs that I find so off-the-mark. I agree with you, Ben, that no matter how fantastic your M3 was and mine is, it's still not a built-from-scratch sports car the way Porsches have always been. And that is what I mean by saying the M3 still ain't the Porsche. Ain't just the badge: it's the whole package.

I drove an M3 quite a few years back and came back extremely unimpressed and underwhelmed. I found the car to be best described as 'vanilla.' The handling was nice but nothing about the way the chassis or steering felt made me feel like I was driving a performance car. The engine made decent power but had no character in sound nor response. The E46 M3 is a gorgeous car but I honestly found little reason to further consider purchasing one. I ended up buying a Lancer Evolution instead which I found to be vastly more entertaining for a fraction of the price of the BMW.

MrBonus, What would you describe as the differences between the M3 and your 997, or better yet a 996 which is my main interest? I am trying to get input about the driving impressions between a vastly reinforced, souped-up standard passenger car (M3) versus a similarly-spec'd, but built-from-ground-up sports car (Porsche). I am not that interested in what an M3 is like comparing to another soup-up car (Evo), much less a soup-up econobox. I hate to see this thread turn into a "what I don't like about am M3" thread. That aside, I don't know about the one you tried: No one I know has said the E46 engine had no character in sound. It is a rich, deeply resonant sound, rivaled only by the Porsche engines. If there's one thing that will keep me happy until the 996 rolls onto my driveway, it's the E46 engine. Did you actually get to floor the M3? The sound changes shockingly into a deep, sonorous, and harmonious blast (as in a chord with multiple voices, musically speaking), from that of a MIDI synthesizer when cruising around town to the National Cathedral pipe organ when you step on it and hold down on the onramp.... Not to belabor the Evo again, but since you mentioned it as superior, which is also very strange: Evo's sound is not even in the same league. It's thin, reedy, and not very resonant. It sounds urgent and excitable, but in the way that a Yorkie terrier's yelp is urgent and excitable.

I've seen threads talking about the M3 and 911 before and it goes down a slippery slope that seems to bring out the best in Rennlisters. Bottom line, the E46 M3 and the M history brings years of credibility to the table so no matter how biased the opinions may be of the 911 owners here, in the real world, the M3 gets A LOT of love. There's always something better, faster out there so let's end d!ck measuring contest between the M3 v. n/a 911 to rest because bottom line these two cars are clearly worthy of comparison with pros/cons conditioning both relative to each other. To comment on the sound of the engine, yes, the S54 does thrum, but that's all you hear is the engine. In the Porsche, it's the combination of engine, intake, exhaust noise that just... kicks it into a higher aural gear. hehe I love the sound of the C4S with PSE. Bad ****. My M3 had the Larini exhaust. Sounded good, too, but not as bad **** as the C4S with PSE.

Benjamin, we seem to be in a parallel universe: two M3 owners (one ex) looking for widebody 996. Have you found your yet? Saw you looking for transport from San Francisco earlier.... I am looking more for TT now, and I see you are looking for a naturally aspirated 996.

All I gotta say is that I'm in HEAVEN when I pass 5000rpms. That sound is intoxicating- it starts howling and pulls so strong - wwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh wwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh - and I don't even have an intake/exhaust mod- all stock.

I've driven the TT and it's very powerful. A bit of lag. The legit GT1 based engine. What scares me away is the higher maintenance costs (even the PPI costs more). Also, I don't like the feel of a turbo engine even if it is madly fast like the TT (coming from an S2000 and M3), and the look of the C4S is more pleasing to my eye. Also, dare I say that the n/a 3.6 sounds a lot better in and out of car than the Turbo engine? I'd actually rather get a Carrera S than the turbo, but I like the look of the 996 C4S better and the fact that the C4S is far more rare than either. If turbo, I think I will move to the 997 TT. It's just that much better. A lot of factors involved here. hehe I'm very particular about the options, modifications the car comes with. Unlike many here, I like my car modified on the outside and the inside and I happened to check one out that has an aerokit, sport seats with body color backs (a must for me), adjustable coilovers, doting owner, etc. I'm going to get a PPI done on it and I think if it passes OK, I'm going to go for it, but concurrently, I'm still on the lookout. You?

I am in the same camp with you on the widebody. The turbo is more of an upkeep. I am thinking I can deal with it, but the C4S is also still much in my crosshairs. I like the unmodded variety for purchase. I would like to mod but I'd like to do it myself, after I learn what Porsche from the factory feels like, to get the whole experience. PPIs are important to me, too!

that's totally cool, but to me, the whole understanding/feeling the car as it was originally designed... don't really give a flying fuq (sorry if it sounds abrupt just my style). if it looks good, sounds good, drives good, that's that. i'll take care of it and turn some heads along the way. even porsche is trying to please the masses and i don't care to drive a car designed for the masses with its regulation height, noise, emissions requirements, etc. i want it lowered, aerokitted, with some quality 19" wheels on that 996. hehehehe the stock suspension on the 911s sit way too high for me esp since i will run 19s with lower profile tires on it. i like a firmer ride as well esp since it's my toy ride. it's too quiet stock. i'm trying to take the shortcut. life's short, do as you please. flaunt what ya got. good luck in your search, bud.

I recently moved from an 02 E46 M3 to an 02 C4S. Both are/were on 19" wheels (BBS LM's for the M and Champion RG5s for the C4S) with aftermarket suspensions. The C4S handles much better. It's just a weight issue. I had the utmost confidence in the M, but the C4S feels glued to the road--I'm still exploring the car, but I certainly run out of nerve before the car runs out of grip. The BMW was fantastic, much more practical. You can haul extra people around, the trunk is usable, etc. The BMW was a bit more work to keep fast. I had an SMG, so it was a bit easier. Fun transmission, certainly shifts faster than I ever could, but you lose a bit of connection with the car. Torque in the midrange is better for the P-car, but it doesn't rev as high. Exhaust note is much better on the porsche. I have PSE and the low rumble/snarl is great. The M3's rasp was cool, but a bit metallicky and synthetic sounding. Both are awesome cars. I would not have changed cars except that my M3 was totalled and it was a good chance to change cars with the insurance money. If I could have afforded a TT, I would have, but I never had a chance to test drive one. How can you deny 400+hp!

Thanks to all.... I am now leaning toward getting the TT instead of the C4S. With the M3, yes it's not a rear engined AWD car, but it will keep me entertained until I find that special widebody for me. Probably a TT, but if the perfect C4S comes along....

i found the braking the biggest change from the stock M3. i went from feeling like a passenger during hard braking limits to being the driver when stomping on the 911 brakes. the steering was much more zen like as well. if i was going to add a cab, i think i would pick another M3 though.

https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/339100-996-c4s-guys-how-are-you-liking-your-car.html

I went from an 03 M3 to an 02 C4S with a couple of other cars in between. Both are great cars. (My M3 was stolen by the way). If I had to choose one it would be the C4S hands down. The M3 had too much understeer, the traction control would come on constantly, the ride was rough and the car was just too heavy. I did like the power (though it could use more torque) and I am one of the few that like the exhaust sound. 50/50 weigh distribution was great. The M3 is also cheaper, can fit four adults and has a big trunk. My C4S looks even better, has awesome steering feel, performance is similar, I have AWD for the rain and possibly snow, though I've never used it in the snow and I think only drove it once in the rain. The C4S is the best car I've ever owned and I look forward to every drive.

Arnee, I tried searches before posting the question, but the search engine at Rennlist here tells me that "M3" is too short a term to do a search on and thus was ignored. For that reason I could not come up with the link you provided or others on the same topic.

Having had an M3 for some time now (2001, E46), I have been busy searching for that perfect 996, C4S or TT. Looking for car that can really still burn it up when it's pouring and sometimes snowing here in Pacific NW. PSM seems a great thing in my climate. And of course, there's nothing like a sports car built from scratch versus a sports coupe built from a standard passenger car origin, although the M3 is very well put together, handles quite well, and with an incredible sounding and revving engine. I believe that you have made a very fair assessment. The 996 is a sports car and the M3 is a luxury sporty car. IMO the E46 M3 is the best choice for those who need a practical car and still want a high performance car. If your time table permits, it may be prudent to wait for the release of the E92 M3. I was looking at the torque curve for the E92's engine, and it produces near maximum torque from around 3K RPM to the upper 6K RPM range. So even though the E92 is relatively heavy, it still should be a blast to drive, especially on the street. Of course if you are a track junkie, you've got to go with a Porsche.