Rear end Spin out question

Being new to 911s, I have a question about safety. In the past I know the older cars were prone to having the rear end come around if you let up on the gas in a hard turn. Is this characteristic gone in the 996 or not. The car I just bought doesn't have the PSM system on it, so I need to know whether I should have it installed or not. I've read about a lot of people being hurt by this characteristic of the older cars and don't want to end up like them. Any input is appreciated.

As far as i'm conscerned, the 996 is pretty tame. I've lost it a couple of times at the track..but that was because i was pushing too hard in the rain and mising the line. Throttle lift oversteer i find to be pretty managable in these cars but that's my personal opinion. can you even install PSM after the fact?

PSM can not be retrofitted to the 996. I find, as stated in prior post, that the rear will only come around if you take the wrong line and WAY too much speed into a corner on the track.

it may not be as bad as the previous 911's but I think it will certainly flip ends if you lift.....at least with my PSM vehicle on my first day on the track last year, PSM was indeed "Please Save Me".....I was lifting and for sure the rear end came loose everytime, but the PSM prevented a spin. so, without it I think it will swap ends. A few months ago with the pedal to the metal through a ramp I lifted as i saw a truck on the right most lane, but by then I was quite comfartable with getting back on the gas and recovering so was not a problem...but for sure these cars can get loose in the rear if you lift.

just don't shift from 3rd to 1st (whoops) and accelerate at the same time and you will be fine.. (i learned the hard way, but got a new front bumper )

To your question, yes, the 911 will swap ends if you lift mid-turn...

Shift into 1st - what was the story there. I would have to be going damn slow to down shift into 1st. On another note: I was going 10-15 km/h did sharp hard turn in 1st gear, while accelerating and ended up doing a 360 donut. Took me unware and scared the **** out of me lucky it was in an empty parking lot.

As long as the engine is in the rear, you cannot lift. You will get better grip with the accelerator. Go to a DE event and practice on a skidpad. You will learn EXACTLY what the car does in certain situations. Then hit the track and practice what you learned. Go into a corner fast and lifting will get you into a lot of trouble! Remember, slow in, FAST out.

Take the car on the track and explore the limits in a safer environment. The 996 is not nearly as wicked as the short wheel base early 911 or even the longer wheel based cars of the 70's and 80's. Even normal street driving speeds could be a handful for the unknowning driver. Each generation of the 911 gets better at off throttle oversteer. In the 996 it is essentially a none event under public road speeds. That said a hard application of the brakes in mid turn at higer speeds can definitely unsettle the car. Slick conditions dramatically change things. This is why a DE is usually recommended even if you never plan to "track" the car. It just gives you an idea what the car will and will not do.

Skip, the 996's handling has been tamed by Porsche. The suspension has nothing in common with the early torsion bar cars. Porsche has purposefully designed the car to understeer so don't fear while driving at reasonable speeds under normal driving conditions. Yes, you can get the rear end to come out. As previously posted, on the track/autocross and on slippery surfaces you can get the rear end to come around by lifting off the gas in the corner. This can be used to point the nose of your car toward the direction you intend to drive out of the corner. You've got to be driving aggressively because if step the speed down a notch the car just slows down in the corner. You can also get the car to oversteer by coming on the gas too early in a corner, but this is not unique to the 996 platform. Any RWD car with enough horse power can do this. The 996 comes out of corners under power very well compared to other cars. You need to put some miles on your car. It will not bite you. You can drive it in the snow and the rain with the right tires. Start autocrossing. This will teach you how your car behaves under extreme conditions without hurting you or your car. Have fun.

Eric Makes a very good point. Autocrossing will definitely teach you about the handling dynamics of your car under a very safe environment. You can even treat some of the sessions as a learning experience trying to do things to upset the car to see how it reacts.

My suspension is not stock, but the suspension has been tamed (and improved) in these cars so much that it is sometimes difficult to get the rear end to come around even if you are trying to do so. Can you make a mistake and swap ends? Sure, as you can in all cars. Is the 996 any more "unstable" than any other car? I seriously doubt it. Learn to drive your car, and start by crawling before you try to run. If you are smart about this, you will soon view the fact that your car does not have PSM to be a potential advantage.

I agree with TD that it is difficult to get the rear end to come around in a 996. I was driving BobT's 993 in a parking lot this past winter and I unintentionally got the tail to come around big time. That was kind of fun. Darren saw that and hopped into his 996 with BobT trying to do the same. All he got was big push instead of getting the tail to come around.

Thanks to all your advice. I'm not scared of the car, I just have a healthy dose of respect for the issue we've been discussing after reading articles for the last 20 years and now finally having a car of my own. I'm planning to go to DE soon and learn. Right now I have balding tires. Would this be a good opportunity to play in a large parking lot to experience the break away before getting new tires?

You'll actually have better grip with the balding tires. Just take a look at some of the tires guys use for track that have max grip (MPSC) and then get then shaved as well!

Probably don't want to push the tires too hard if they are balding. Just too unpredictable. Get newer tires and go to a big enough parking lot. Drive around in a circle faster and faster until the tires start to get noisy and lift! Now you know what it feels like to spin! On a serious note, I think it is an advantage that you don't have PSM. On another thread, we are discussing the disadvantages at this moment!

I think it's pretty easy to get the back end loose, but you have to try. It's not nearly as easy as it was in the older 911s, but I regularly get the back end loose in my C4 w/PSM on. It's very predictable and controled. I have a few curves by my house that I'm always trying to get the 'perfect drift' on - once out of fifty can I nail the heel-toe into the 'perfect drift.'

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif

What's confusing about that? (I'm talking about drifting not lifting off the throttle - I've never had the back end come out that way.)

I do not understand what you are trying to say. I have always understood heel-toeing to be a technique pursuant to which you can shift while braking in a manner least likely to upset your car or break your transmission. I am not certain how you could use heel-toeing to induce a drift. I simply do not understand what you are saying. Do you mean that you trailbrake to induce a drift? I mean no insult, just trying to understand.

Sorry for the confusion, not using heel-toe to induce drift, just the combination of moves which is so rewarding in the rear engine configuration. There is an S curve after a short straight - I heel-toe into the first corner (before apex) and then throttle through the next two trying to achieve optimum drift (I'm at the end of a closed road so it's safe to cross the line).

Ok, that makes sense. I am sure in retrospect you can understand my confusion, right?

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/beerchug.gif

I think this would be a great test for him to try....Go to a parking lot, and do your damndest to try to get the rear end to come around. Lift or brake in a hard turn, do whatever you can. It's not so easy to do. Of course, this doesn't mean it defies the laws of physics, that mass is still in the rear, and at some point the inertia can't be overcome. I had the same initial anxiety because the 996 was the first 911 I ever drove. In reality, its a very easy car to drive.

For me, the 996 is prone to a bit of understeer. The "nortorious" oversteering which was present in the older 911, was (as previous noted above) engineered out lfor the most part. But as has been said, get the car on a skid pad, do some DE's, work with adjustments in tire pressures, etc. and you'll get the "feel" of the car over a reasonable amount of time. Having said this, it does not hurt to have a healthy respect for the car, but not a fear of it.

thanks again everyone....went to the NC mountains today and had a ball on the long sweeping turns acending and decending the mountains.