Steering Shimmy/Vibration at Highway Speed...BS Reason from Dealer?

Hi all, I did take my car in to the dealer yesterday and they did ease my concerns on my brakes though they did admit the pad felt slightly glazed and could probably be re-bedded if driven hard enough to help with some additional bite. However, as I briefly mentioned in the other thread I also had a very bad shimmy and vibration above 70mph. Last week they did a road force balance on all 4 tires and that reduced the shimmy from very bad to just bad. Yesterday my service advisor and the pre-owned sales manager drove the car and did say that the shimmy and vibration was an issue and was NOT normal. After about 2 hours of passing me from the service department back to the pre-owned department (where I bought my CPO'd car from less than 1 month ago) my service advisor, sales man and pre-owned sales manager all came out and looked at the car. The service advisor who drove the car said if he had not already checked when they did the balance last week it felt like a loose control rod. However, that was checked and ruled out last week apparently. What seems like BS to me is the reason they gave that this is "normal." The car has 3 month old Pilot Sports that were put on prior to me purchasing the car by the previous owner. The car has been driven very little since then and they look BRAND NEW. They claim the serriations in the edge of the tire and the gap between the tread make the tire grip the road more and thus pull the car either direction at highway speed (and up). They suggested that I change to a Bridgestone tire or another tire with less serrations and a narrower tread gap and the problem would completely go away. They also claim the camber of the car could have an effect, though my wheels have very little to no camber as is. I myself don't buy this. I spoke with several other very knowledgable car people who do not either. I wanted to get your feedback. The best they could do for me is swap the front tires (FL to FR, FR to FL) and see if that would resolve the issue. I'm picking up the car this afternoon and fully expect to still have the same problem. The dealership basically said they are done with my and if I was not satisfied with what they've done so far to fix the problem that I could give the GM a call because they were washing their hands of me.

Did they check alignment, beyond a visual of camber? I had a shimmy problem at speed that was solved by new alignment (mine were way off from spec).

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They claim they did an alignment on the car before I bought it and it has had the issue since I drove it home from the dealership the day I bought it. My problem was that I didn't get the car above 60mph during the test drive so I never even knew about it. The shimmy/vibration starts at 70. They also said it doesn't need an alignment since it's not pulling to the left or right. I wasn't 100% sure if that's all an alignment was good for or not?

If they did an alignment, ask them for a copy so you can see the 'before' and 'after'.

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I just sent a request for it from my service advisor. I will post once received.

you may have bad tires........ it happens every now and then.

This is not a good way to start a new car experience. Ask for a copy of all the work that was performed prior to your purchase. I asked for a copy each time and did not get any resistance. Since you have a CPO they should have record of this work. I've purchased two Porsche's in Dallas (although it could be from a different dealer) and had to negotiate the resolution of a few things on the last car. It is always good to get these issues resolved before you sign on the bottom line.

frankly many things here - could be a bent wheel, bad tires, worn links in suspension, missing aerodynamic pieces under the car that disrupt airflow at 70mph. To check if a wheel is bent you'd have to look at it from the inside view as well.

If they are a P dealer they could quickly and easily do a swap for front wheels and tires from another car and see if the problem goes away. This would tell you where the problem lies.

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What do you mean "bad?" What could be bad about them if they are 3 months old and full tread? I do have a copy of all the work. Though most of it is from 08 and 09. What should I look for?

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they can be out of round, mounted badly or some manufacturer defect or out of spec detail that has squeezed by QC..... there are many threads on the web of out of round tires that balancing does not help it from shimmies. Like mentioned, I would talk to your dealer to try mounting other tires.... better yet, drive a car that is known not to shimmy and remove its tires to mount it on your car.... I would not let this issue die, they do not seem to care.

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They truly don't. I'm sure it's because of my age. I'm 25 and I think they assume that I cannot afford to come in and buy a new $100k Porsche from them so who cares if they blow me off. If there is something physically wrong with the tires in the details you describe, do I have a leg to stand on to have them replaced by the dealer? They were put on about a month or two before the car was traded in to the dealer according to my salesman. He was told that by the previous owner. This same previous owner owned the car for 3 months to bide time until he could find a turbo. Once the dealer had a turbo, he traded it back in.

Is this car CPO'd?.... if it is, I would start raising my voice in front of the customers desk..... the issue is, you need to know if it is the tires, or something else mechanical.

same thing happend to me - brought back to the dealer - had to visit the dealer 4 times untill the issue was finally resolved - they refinished the wheels and they were slightly bent (3 of them), did another balance, improved but there was still vibration, did an alignment, and after all that they realized the 2 front tires were bad (4 tires were brand new before I bought the car) - they contacted Pirelli to return the defective front tires and installed new ones for me and the problem finally went away - thank God for CPO hope that helps

All the suggestions posted make sense, but to me the big question is why you're having to deal with this. I'd make it simple for them. You bought a CPO car that has issues. Their job is to resolve the issue and let you know when it's done. -Shawn

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Yes, CPO til middle of 2012. Thanks for the insight. I'm doing my best not to back down and will keep it up. So should I focus on strictly the front wheels and tires here? Could any of this be caused by anything out of spec from the rear wheels?

possible causes aside from the rod end one of the weights on the wheel fell off the wheel is slightly bent or out of round the tire belt inside has snapped causing imbalance alignment (but I doubt this) your brake disc is slightly warped (we're not talking about pad deposition) bushings

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if you feel the shimmy on your steering wheel.... yes, on the front, but if you feel the rear shaking..... well, you get the idea. all it needs is 1 bad wheel to have a shimmy.

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Not your job to tell the dealer what to focus on. The dealer should know. Next time when you speak to the dealer to the service manager or even the general manager stress that you were led to believe the car was road worthy, safe and the dealer could take care of anything that rendered the car not road worthy or not safe. That you received the car in what you consider an unroad-worthy condition that you feel since the symptom has not been resolved and thus no one can say what's wrong that you can't fee safe in the car and have lost all enjoyment of the car. Thus, the dealer has not lived up to its end of the bargain and to you this suggests that you have been a victim of consumer fraud. Calmly and politely point out that if the dealer can't resolve this problem to your satisfaction in 5 days you will be forced to speak with the county's department of consumer fraud and see if you have grounds to file consumer fraud complaint against the dealer. Furthermore, that you will if you have to have the car fixed elsewhere and then bring a suit against this dealer for the not only the cost of having the car fixed, but the cost of a replacement rental car, and of course seek compensation for your considerable mental anquish in dealing with what you were led to believe a good car which has turned out to be just the opposite. Sincerely, Macster.

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Thank you for your feedback Macster. I appreciate the great advice. I was actually mistaken, the man who I thought was the pre-owned sales manager was actually the GM. He didn't seem to care either. Go figure.

I do have a copy of all the work. Though most of it is from 08 and 09. What should I look for?[/QUOTE] My thought was that during the CPO inspection there may have been recommendations and corrections made to the car such as a bent wheel which was repaired and may give you an indication as to the problem. If the tires are indeed 3 months old there should not be an issue with replacement as long as negligence stays out of the picture.

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My thought was that during the CPO inspection there may have been recommendations and corrections made to the car such as a bent wheel which was repaired and may give you an indication as to the problem. If the tires are indeed 3 months old there should not be an issue with replacement as long as negligence stays out of the picture.[/QUOTE] I have copies of the service records but not what was done (if anything) to the car when it was CPO'd. I will see if I can obtain that as well.

This is a CPO car, and as such, anything less than a perfectly driving car should be unacceptable to them - the Porsche dealer. It's difficult for me to fathom such poor service. Keep at them.

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I agree as well. It's a shame as a first time Porsche owner that I have to deal with this. I sent them what I felt to be a well-worded e-mail that addressed many of the concerned listed by the members here. I will post the response and hopefully the resolution.

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Keep biting at them and you will get it resolved! Don't let them stop you in any way from not getting a positive conclusion to this! Good luck!

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Thanks Topaz. I had no plans to post my e-mail that I sent earlier today to the dealership regarding the issue, however the GM's recent response really led me no choice as it's clear I am not getting the "run around." My e-mail was addressed to my preowned salesman, my service advisor and the GM of the dealership. All of who I spent 2+ hours with yesterday trying to get this resolved. My original message: Hi all, I wanted to follow up on my visit yesterday. I know my SALESMAN had asked me personally in my opinion what DEALERSHIP should do to fix the car. In my opinion, the vibration and shimmy should have never been present on a car that was sold by DEALERSHIP. Let alone a CPO Porsche car as a matter of standard. At this time, the car is unsafe to be driven. The car is all over the road at highway speed and above. Safety is my number one priority when driving a car and it is paramount to me. I was blessed enough to walk away from a very serious car accident two months ago. When I purchased the car, I was led to believe that it was road-worthy and that any issue that would cause it not to be road-worthy would be resolved to my satisfaction. I was reassured that Porsche CPO cars are tested and inspected to the highest of standards. Both SERVICE ADVISOR and GM acknowledged there was an issue with a shimmy and vibration in the steering. I apologize, but after speaking with other techs on this subject I do not believe that just the type of tire could be the cause this problem. It is in my opinion and the opinion of the techs I’ve spoken with that either one or more of the wheels are bent, the tires are out of spec (out of round, worn improperly by the previous owner), the car is out of alignment, brake rotors are warped, there are missing or loose suspension pieces (tie or control rod links) or missing or loose aerodynamic pieces underneath the car. While I do understand Porsche cars are designed to “feel the road,” there is no reason why the solid feel of the steering at sub-60mph should not be maintained throughout all speed. Unfortunately, this type of problem can lend itself to many different causes. I believe your techs should install a different set of wheels and tires provided by DEALERSHIP on the car that are known to be in balance and have tires and wheels that are in spec to test. That way we can isolate the issue down to the wheels and tires. GM mentioned that the tire swap that he suggested may solve the problem temporarily, but it would most likely return. I am unhappy with a temporary fix and I am not willing to pick up my car this way. As I mentioned yesterday, my first Porsche ownership and my first DEALERSHIP experience so far have been extremely disappointing. I would appreciate this being made right, whatever it takes. A car with these issues from the minute it was driven home from the dealership, especially a Porsche CPO sold by DEALERSHIP is unacceptable. I look forward to picking up my car after these issues have been resolved. I cannot afford to miss any more time away from work. So far, it has been 4 visits to the dealership within one week. I had to miss my entire afternoon of work yesterday after the 2+ hour time I spent trying to have this issue resolved. I would appreciate not having to spend any more time doing so. Thank you for your time" General Manager Response "Mr. ME, I appreciate your involvement in diagnosing these issues. The issue with you vehicle is something that our DEALERSHIP is unable to duplicate due to the speed in which this issue occurs. The issue also does not make the vehicle non road worthy. I am in agreement that there could be an issue although I did not duplicate it either, once again due to not being able to drive the vehicle at the speeds in which it occurs. I do acknowledge it is a common occurrence/issue with Porsche’s due to the ability to “feel” the road. I do not believe it is a bent wheel as this would have been diagnosed prior to delivery as well as when we re-road force balanced the wheels. I want you to rest assured that DEALERSHIP is attempting to correct the issue and that we do not want you to incur any more time dealing with it either. Thank you. -General Manager (name removed)" Now seriously...The only highway close is a toll road and apparently they can't take cars on the highway for whatever reason? Maybe they don't want to pay the toll? I'm sorry but this is really pissing me off.

Is there another dealer nearby?

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Yes, however they have been known for extremely crooked business practices. I'm not sure about their service department though. However, since this appears, at least at this point an issue with bad tires another dealership wouldn't cover it under the CPO since it is a "wear and tear" item. Since the car was sold to me this way, it is something that needs to be corrected by the dealership that sold me the car.

I'm going from memory here but I recall that this happens at 70+ MPH. If that is correct I think the dealership is saying that they won't drive the car faster than the legally posted speed limit in order to isolate the problem. It seems like they are at least somewhat interested in working with you on the problem. I would suggest that they swap all the wheels (2 at a time) to try and further isolate the source. If the problem goes away when the fronts are swapped out it may indeed be a tire problem as they suggest. The individual front wheels could be swapped back on one at a time to further isolate things.

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There's a highway nearby. I'm sure I'm not the only one who've had this issue. I don't find it reasonable for the dealership to just say, well we can't take your car on the toll way nearby so therefore we cannot validate the claim and resolve the issue for you. They are swapping the two front tires (left to right and right to left). However, they stated that would only temporarily solve the issue as the tires begin to wear down it would most likely come back.

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Now thats BS.... there are guys here that runs their tires to the cords because they cant feel the wear.... shimmy, on the other hand you can feel. Two different things.... Plus.... your tires are just about brand new.

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Pay attention to this one. All of the possibilitys are good like everybody elses. Looking at #3 PLEASE take to mind for the rest of your life that just because power steering will turn the wheels lock to lock while sitting still it is not the thing to do. Tire belts -even if manufacturers say things are rock solid- will go crooked or break. Ask the soft rubbers the belts are suspended in if they give a darn for keeping the belts in their place, especially since the rubbers will flex more making the belts easier to distort. In short, sure the tires are close to new but what else happened to them after purchase. Looking at 5 these sorts of problems are hard to catch but the heat generated will show up on the wheel in the center area by just feeling for heat generated. Easy check feeling hub area of wheel. I don't think you have water in the brake system or the brakes would be slightly applying making the car drag. You could check this by after you get a wobble, try seeing if the car when at low speeds is prone to act like the brakes are applied a little instead of coasting. Once again this gives its heat to the hub area of the wheel. A durametric might help to see if the abs is misreading and pumping brakes to one side. NO NO not crooked business in Texas! Really sucks but taking a lighter approach with the varmits at all times when huntin a problem is probably best or they spook and kick dirt at you while digging in under the bush. All in all dealers are nice guys. They have to be since they are porsche owners Good luck with the problem. It can't hurt to just throw new tires up front. It would let you know right away if its the tires. The wheels are the same thing.

I had almost the exact same problem with the 2002 I just purchased last month. I thought it was just balance and alignment. On the way to work one morning at about 30 mph I lost a rear tire (inside side wall toast). Got to the tire store for two new rears and while balancing, the tech called me over to take a look and showed me one of the rims was bent - then the other. Balanced as good as we could and took back to the purchase dealer (mine came with warranty almost like CPO but from indy) the next week. I bitched that their "200 point inspection" should have caught this. In the end, we found that the bent rim was cracked and needed welding/repair. The wheel shop had said it was the second repair. After two rears were repaired and all four were rebalanced and a four wheel alignment and corner balance was performed, the car now rides smooth as glass. Check for bent rims, cracked rims (especially if you have the ultra light rims), etc. And hurry before you damage the tires. The tires have a low tolerance for constantly bouncing on the pavement at higher speeds. They heat up like the dickens when you do that too.

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I 100% agree that it is most likely a bent rim since the tires are near new. They tell me they checked the wheels but I bet it was just a visual inspection. They did claim that if it was bent that they wouldn't have been able to get the road force balance to balance out properly. Does anyone know if that is true?

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It depends on what they considered acceptable as far as the variance goes. As I recall the normal range is up to 10lbs? (don't recall if it was lbs or ounces) of road force but that one could opt for a lesser value of 5. One things for sure. If they swap tires and it goes away then it's probably NOT a bent rim. Unless they are then able to balance out a bent spot with a bad tire.

I just spoke with my Service Advisor. He claims they swapped the front Left and front Right tires (from the left rim to the right rim) and that fixed the issue. Does that seem like a temporary fix? Would that fix or just mask the issue?

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Perhaps if uni-directional tires were mounted the wrong way and swapping wheels side to side had the tires running the right direction. The dealer has the experts. Ask the SA to ask one his factory trained techs what could account for the change in behavior swapping wheels side to side? I can think of a few myself but my manager needs me....work calls. Sincerely, Macster.

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They are Michelin Pilot Sport tires. He claims there is already some "feathering" on the inner tread of the tire. I find that odd since my salesman told me that the previous owner told him that he purchased the tires 2-3 months ago. I've only put about 600 miles on the car in the month that I've owned it.

yep, feathering is an alignment issue Someone in Dallas let this guy know of a good alignment shop

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If it is truly an alignment issue how would swapping the Michelin Pilot Sport front tires (R to L and L to R) fix (or maybe mask?) the issue? The service advisor has tried to reassure me that since the car isn't pulling left or right that an alignment isn't needed. Thoughts? I wasn't sure if an alignment was good for anything else.

Have you driven it since 'they fixed it"? Too much or too little toe will cause a high speed vibration (and feathering) Of course it could be some other suspension component and might be the reason the PO got rid of the car I would take it to a third party alignment/suspension place, Dallas should be full of good race shops.

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If you're feathering the inside tread, then it's possible you have excessive toe-out (and/or negative camber) so swapping the tires off the wheels (if the Michelin PS tread pattern allow it) would put new tread on the inside. But that's a temporary fix that should really be corrected with an alignment. If you think the only time you need an alignment is when your car pulls in one direction, then I would encourage you to research and read up about tires and alignment. The 350z is very sensitive to alignment and it was common to feather the inside tread after a few thousand miles. I used to swap the tire off the wheel to extend their life. IMO, it's easier to win the hearts with honey than vinegar. And if this dealer (which I presume is Park Place from your previous posts) is adamant that they will not do anything further to resolve the issue, then perhaps you should give Boardwalk a visit or at least speak to an SA or tech there and get their opinion. I like Jeromy Boulet and John Gladwill, myself. Good luck.

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What it might be is the alignment is such that it wore the tire bad cupping them where the alignment is forcing pressure on the tires. Then swapping the tires around gave fresher rubber to screw up, cup or what ever to give a false impression that things are good. Or the tires were mounted the wrond direction. If they are one direction tires and they got swapped around then the roll is the wrong way. If you see the arrows pointed counter rotation then its wrong. I'd mostly think if its uneven tire wear causing the problem its joints in the front suspension. With out any real problems that will arise again the tires mounted counter rotation explains it. If they say it isn't that then it should be easy to figure its tire wear from bad alignment or suspension parts. But then what do I know. It isn't my car PS They said it worked great before anyway. Did they finally find somebody that knows how to go over 70mph to test drive a car?

have you spun the wheels on a hunter or equivalent road force high speed balancer? will tell you everything you need to know about the roundness of the wheels and the balance, cost you maybe, maybe 50 bucks at a tire shop and take a total of twenty minutes. the fact that the dealer didn't do that is suspicious. if the wheels are bent get new wheels. you can visually inspect for toe as well and if you're just measuring not adjusting, any cheap *** laser alignment machine will give you accurate measurements. tire direction and left/right just look at the sidewalls. proof is power when dealing with dealers, so spend a few bucks and get it in hand if you don't get resolution from dealer you can escalate to PCNA regional rep

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I'm picking it up tomorrow. We'll see.

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I agree that this is the problem in my opinion. They claim the alignment is fine since the car does not pull one direction or the other. Also, at a glance the car appears to have very little negative camber when compared to other porsches on the lot. A stock Cayman pulled in behind me and had extreme negative camber in the rear. I know that doesn't guarantee anything, but it was just an observation I noticed. Yes, the dealership has road force balanced all 4 wheels and Pilot Sport 2 tires and claim they all run true.

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Whenever I hear "Road Force Balance", I automatically get suspicious as this is something a lot of shady sales and service guys try to use to hide the real issues. If you think about it, if a car is working properly, a plain old regular balance should suffice. I often see people talking about "Road Force Balance" when there is a bent rim, alignment issues, accident damage, worn control arm bushings and/or ball joints involved and the guy doesn't want to truly fix the real problem. This is just my past experience on that term. If they are a Porsche dealer, they should have several cars they can swap out all 4 rim/tire combo off another car onto yours to try out. That would immediately put closure on the bent rim/faulty tire theory and would cost them nothing(except a little labor/shop time). Very simple to do and something they should've done right off the bat IMO. If they can't drive it 70+ mph, then have them let you take it out with someone sitting in the passenger side. my $.02

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I appreciate your feedback. They seem very resistant to that. I just sent an e-mail requesting an alignment as I feel that this is most likely the issue. My issue with this situation is more about the run around I've been given than the actual issue itself. It's my first service experience as a Porsche owner and its just disappointing that I've basically had to blast whatever good will I had with this dealership try to get this resolved.

Yah when I almost said have them do things your mentioning them blowing off performing checks reregistered so.......thats when I said throw tires on it. If it is under protection from porsche then maybe give the said to be crooked dealer a shot at stealing you as a customer by telling him your experience. It doesn't take much to throw a car on an alignment machine. I think the trouble filled shop has a full work load so figures they don't need the business right now. Funny how some minds work. They sure aren't germans with pride.

Good news. The tire swap from L to R and along with the alignment I basically had to beg them to do fixed the problem. The right front was way out of spec in toe and camber. When the car was ready I got the call to come pick it up from my service advisor. The first thing he said to me when I answered the phone was, "come get this car" in a deadpan voice. Nothing else. Quite the reception. I definitely do not plan on ever bringing my car back to this dealership. Oh, and they brought it back to me unwashed. This was after they specially told me that it was already washed and waiting for me. Icing on the cake I guess. lol.

At least they remidied the problem......any chances for a track to test the full range of speed? I know don't-well I did- use the dead end to white sands past Dona Anna for high speed runs. Some of the guys spotted vascar cops playing tickets on that stretch. You know its them when they turn around and chase you. No way out headed in.

Sounds like the dealer was pushed into solving your shimmy issue, and they didn't like doing that. I would not go back to them either. Find another dealer that is willing to work with you in the future.

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What a pain...at least it's over and resolved for you. I always tell them "no wash". Who knows how many times the sponge or towel has been dropped on the ground.

bunch of A-holes.... I would write a letter to PCNA. But, its over so.... enjoy the new found speed.

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Good move. The one time some did me the "favor" of washing my car it cost me several hours with a buffer to get all the scratches back out. Shawn

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Yup. I've even got a "No Wash" sign that I place on the dash whenever I need to drop the car off for service. I'd much rather get a slight dirty scratch-free car back than a freshly cleaned and scratched car returned to me. I also try to make sure the car is clean before it goes in as they are likely to take better care of it - or so I've been told by at least 1 service department.

Thank you all for their support. I noticed a new scratch on my driver's side door that it appears they touched up. About an inch long. It's pretty noticable and I hand wash my car and I know it wasn't there before. However, after how things transpired I don't think they'd give me water much less fix something else on the car. If their goal was to totally deflate my first ownership of a Porsche, they did a good job! Thank you all for your support and suggestions. It definitely helped narrow down the problem and get it resolved with an alignment.

Wow!! What an epic clusterf*ck that was for you! I'm sorry you had to go through that ordeal, but I'm glad to see you didn't let up on them until the issue was resolved. Apparently customer service is not one of their strong points. I can not imagine the dealership in my area treating any customer like this. They know better - there are half a dozen Porsche dealers within an hour's drive and they know they would lose business with anything less than a great experience. If you can, avoid that dealership from here on out. If I were you, I'd not only write a letter to PCNA, but I'd join the Porsche Club of America and then detail the experience you had with the aforementioned dealership. Word travels fast within the Porsche circle. Get it out.

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For about $75, Boardwalk uses a touch-up guy that can make it look perfect or very close to perfect. I have personally experienced the touch-up work, my results were phenomenal. /m

>> They claim the alignment is fine since the car does not pull one direction or the other. Also, at a glance the car appears to have very little negative camber when compared to other porsches on the lot. This statement troubles me, even though you finally got resolved. Not an expert, but I definitely did spend some time on alignment early on with help from an expert. Getting a good setup definitely adds to your enjoyment of the car. Firstly, alignment is not that expensive. I've had two, I would have to check my invoices but somehting like $150 is what I remember. Compared to the cost of tires its nothing. A good setup more than paid back in extended wear (for me). There should be some rear camber - too much and you can wear out one or both tires too quickly, too little and you will sacrifice some assurance on the tight and twisties. While the factory specs are ok, I found that having an expert adjust them a little for their experience and your driving style, needs and tires is a worthwhile effort. What bothers me about that statement is that in both cases there were many adjustments to alignment that were necessary and worthwhile and I never had any major pulling to the left and right. When set up correctly the car feels rock solid at any speed, yet agile and accurate wherever you point it. That is one of the best parts of driving this car - even on long straights like i5 it is a pleasure because it just goes where it is supposed to go with little effort. I agree with others, go elsewhere to service with someone who cares. I am still suspicious, I think you should shell for your own alignment and get a good setup with an expert. Did you see the measurements after it was resolved? After all your CPO most certainly doesn't cover tires which can wear quickly even if you can't feel vibration. When these tires go, I do recommend Bridgestone I had two sets of them and very happy with all round price, wear, performance and feel. Not that there aren't other good makes, that's just what I got.

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Yes, I did. I will post them this week sometime in a new thread. They removed the negative camber from the rears and put back in spec (camber and toe) on the front right. Front left appears to be within spec range.

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No camber at all in the back? I would have to check my specs on that, but that is not my recollection. I think you need a little camber at the back, with the weight of the engine back there you will lose too much grip when cornering hard as all the weight moves to the outside edge and the wheel tilts over, that is what camber counters. I suggest you double check the specs yourself independently. I have a bad feeling this dealer doesn't know what they are doing with alignment given your story so far. This is a topic you can easily take into your own hands, talk to some other people with expertise.