why do people say this.....

Run don't walk away from a car that's had RMS work???? Please, I need an answer to have peace of mind. If it can be repaired for $800 whay do people act like it's such a big deal? Thanks, Skipp

They are saying run in this case because your dealer is being secretive about the warranty history. Some say once there has been an RMS issue they are more prone in the future but this hasn't been proven.

Thanks, The dealer went as far as to say, " I'm divulged enough info as it is. This is priviledged info." Can you believe that? The cars I asked about aren't even in their city. Anyone else had this problem getting info? Can you call PCNA directly for the info? If so where is the phone # I couldn't find it on the website Thanks

most likely because many people have had RMS leaks more then once or they had PCNA replace the engine because the special tool said so. I had it done for $500 + parts at an independent. I think it is a bit blown out of proportion.

Sometimes you have to REMIND them who the customer is. We had a client once who would put on a hat that said "CLIENT" whenever we lost sight of that.....pretty damn effective. If it was such a clean car they would brag about its history not come up with "privilige" crap

Shark, The cars I'm looking at are from individuals...would you expect the dealer to bragg about clean cars that the dealer isn't trying to sell? He read the info over the phone to me, reluctantly, and said he sees cars with 10 times as much "stuff" on the computer report. How can I get my own copy of the report to study? Any suggestions? Thanks, Skipp

My recent purchasing experience was a whole lot better. I bought from a local independent shop that specializes in high end european cars. They have a "lease buyback" program that basically amounts to sending them to an auction with a "wish list" from you and your cell phone number. A few days before the auction, the sales rep sat down with me in front of his computer and we utterly dissected the computer reports together (and many cars DID have long lists of "issues"). He was frank about what these actually meant in real terms (i.e., what a "1/2" scuff on left front bumper" meant, etc.). Long lists may actually be "trivial" in person. He even showed me a car on his lot, and the sheet that corresponded to it. It CAN be misleading. Then once at the auction, he put his own eyes on the cars we had identified (they had THOUSANDS of high-end cars being auctioned all in one day...they do it monthly). He called me with questions throughout the auction and kept me in the loop. To make a short story long, he came back from the auction with NO car for me. He didn't want me to be unhappy and didn't want to take a chance. For all he knew, I may have walked away at that point. However, I was impressed by this candor and I later bought my 996 from him. In my opinion, if your rep can't be honest and disclose EVERYTHING about a car, then he/she isn't worth the leap of faith. As the customer, I had to accept that they had to make their profit, and we came to an open understanding of each other's side. I absolutely expect to go back to him for my next car.

Great story....thanks for taking the time Skipp

The RMS issue seems to be knee jerk reaction by many, with the mention of RMS equating to the signs of Revelations. There seems to be a lot of misinformation floating around about it. In fact with all the conflicting information it makes it difficult if not impossible to understand if there is really an issue there at all. Porsche has not helped much by being secretive about the numbers of cars affected and what the problem and/or the issues are. Obviously the engine replacement possibility is the most worrisome, but no one seems to know the number of cars this has occurred on and what actually causes the problem if the engine is replaced. The dealerships are not much help because they all seem to have different �inside� information. To me the whole issue seems blown out of proportion. As more and more cars accumulate miles it would seem logical to think that if there is a fundamental problem with the engine then more and more stories would emerge with catastrophic results. But that doesn't seem to be happening. In fact it seems that the issue is only continually brought up by people searching for cars or by owners with cars with relatively low miles. That said it seems in general the problem is merely an oil leak. The recent article in total 911 or some other porsche specific magazine seems to support this. Sure there have been some incidents of recurring problems and some engine replacements. However there are countless other cars that don't leak and/or that do leak and are fixed. Personally I didn't let the RMS issue bother me too much. Sure I didn't necessarily want a car that the problem had happened on but then, the mileage with which the leak occurs seems to range from 5k to 60k, with most happending prior to 30k. With such a large mileage range it seems to support the theory the seal was poorly designed and/or the installation position was not ideal. It would be insteresting to see how many cars have had the leak reocurr after the latest generation seal and the new instlation technique along with the bolt replacemsnts. Just my rambling $.02 on the issue to try and set your mind at ease.

Just my $0.02 When looking for my car I, of course, used this board and the RMS thing nearly put me off. After buying the car I joined the local Porsche club and have spent most of my time using that board since then. The interesting thing to me is this � I look at several boards and the RMS issue only ever seems to show up on this one. I don�t recall it ever being even mentioned on any of the other boards that I use regularly. In fact I had been away from here for a while, had completely forgotten about it and then I come back to find it still a hot topic here. While I am sure that there is a problem I don�t think it is anywhere near as prevalent as some people on here would have you believe. Some thought based on nothing but conjecture and speculation: - There is a view that cars that have had it before are more likely to have it again � unsubstantiated. - There is a view that cars that are not driven regularly suffer the problem more than those that are garage queens � unsubstantiated - Some people will tell you that it occurs in as many as 10% of cars � unsubstantiated. However I think if that were the case then more people would know about it and I know some very knowledgeable people who have never heard of it. If it were 10% then Porsche would have done something by now. I think people that get the problem are drawn to this board � misery loves company. It is a bit like putting out information about a meeting regarding AIDS medication, polling the attendees and concluding that 50% of the country has AIDS. Yes, if I thought a car had seen that problem before then I would probably skip it. Other than that, buy the car and enjoy it. If it is going to keep you awake at night then buy something like an Acura. Whatever your decision � good luck with your next purchase. Barry

Here is my0.02. RMS issue is more of a nag then a real problem. The problem is that on a 996 many fixed RMS leaks again in the future. Why is this problem so blown out of proportion is it might be the buyers of the 996. See many 996 purchasers are new to Porsche. The 996 comfort has brought in many customers that might have bought a BMW, Benz, or Lexus. What they don't realize is that the old air cooled cars always had some little oil leak. They really think a small oil leak is some thing detrimental to the car. Yes its annoying, and if I paid $80K for a car I don't want it to leak. However its not gonna blow an engine because of it( unless it spills a quart a day). As far as the a dealer not willing to disclose more about a car is someone I would not want to do business with.

thank you all skipp

Lots of cars have idiosynratic oil leaks. It's more emotional with a Porsche b/c: - you love the car - you paid a lot of money for it - you expect extreme reliability for extreme $ - it costs a lot to fix If it was the valve cover gasket on your Pontiac Grand-Ma you'd just fix it and go on with life. Just my 2�

How or why does a RMS problem lead to a replaced engine?

i have spoken to several Porsche Head Techs about the RMS issue at length. Evidently, EVERY 996 NA has some amount of seepage from this Rear Main Seal. 95% of the time the seepage is just that, seepage that the normal porsche enthusiast would not find unless the car were lifted and looked at in specific places. It's these 5% of the time cars that for some reason, the seepage escalates into a small leak - we're talking 2 or 3 drops here or there. Not a quart here and 2 quarts there! Once there is obvious evidence of an oil leak whether it be oil drops on the garage floor or that oil burning smell from the leak hitting the manifold/exhaust, then the seal gets replaced. Even if you had an RMS leak, it could actually just be monitored and you wouldn't have to replace it - so long as the leak doesn't evolve into a full blown geyser. But just keep an eye on it and top off your oil every now & then and you're set. Just be sure to have some cardboard to lay on your garage floor Why does this lead to a new engine??? Well, once a leak has occurred, the concentricity of the intermediate shaft is measured. If it is within specs, then the RMS is just replaced. If it is out of spec meaning that a good tight fit cannot be had with the new seal, then the engine is replaced so that the RMS can do it's job correctly. This shaft is out of spec from the factory - not something that happens because of an oil leak or being driven hard. So basically you've either got it or you don't - but actually we all have it If you're really worried about it but have your heart set on a Porsche...... get a Turbo. That's what i did!

[QUOTE=Lizard1] Why does this lead to a new engine??? Well, once a leak has occurred, the concentricity of the intermediate shaft is measured. If it is within specs, then the RMS is just replaced. If it is out of spec meaning that a good tight fit cannot be had with the new seal, then the engine is replaced so that the RMS can do it's job correctly. This shaft is out of spec from the factory - not something that happens because of an oil leak or being driven hard. So basically you've either got it or you don't - but actually we all have it QUOTE] There was a recent article in Panorama or Excellence that shed more light on this problem. Porsche did not replace these engines because they were going to suffer some catastrophic failure. With the seal design at the time, there was a good likelihood that they would fail that seal design again. They replaced the engines because they needed engines with failed RMS to autopsy to determine root cause of failure and develop interim or permanent repair actions. I would suspect that many if not most of the "new" engines used as replacements were "remanufactured" engines supplied with the same warranty as a new engine. Porsche has gone through several changes in this seal design. I believe the current seal design is similar to that used on the V8 Cayenne engines. An RMS failure is not the end of the world. However, if you've had it fail many times you probably think that it is. Cheers,

thanks again for all the discussion. SKipp

FWIW, this topic has died down a bit on this board as more and more 996's get outside the normal warranty period... Just to follow up on a point made earlier that the shaft came out of spec from the factory... would this mean that they should find this tolerance failure on your first RMS visit? If it is out of spec from the factory, I wouldn't think that you'd have to wait for your 2nd or 3rd RMS failure to find out that you need a new engine??? If this is the case, why would anyone be majorly concerned about buying an RMS failed car that passed the first "tool test?" Just curious.

The "Tool test" has been revised as well as the RMS design. I don't recall the specifics regarding the revised test tool and procedure, but I expect someone here on the list does.

Very detailed article in October issue of "Total 911" magazine that I bought on newstand this week. Showing the measurement tools the "new" installation tool that inserts seal 5mm deeper, etc. Also explains the three generations of the seal design. Some cars with early issue only got original seal replacement, so may have had second issue, etc..... FYI - Total 911 is a UK printed magazine just started in the last year or so.

What was the end result of the article in "Total 911" have they fixed the thing or not

I think that remains to be seen. A new seal has been designed (as has already been covered here) and its too early to tell if its fixing the cars. A few of the early 997 cars had leaks and that freaked people out but if I the new seal wasnt put into production until may of this year, if I remember right. So basically, only time will tell if the PFTE seals can remedy the problem. What we all have to remember thought is that any seal has the possibility to leak.. even the old air cooled cars were susceptible to a leaking rear main seal.

I am on my second RMS. Not a big deal to me. Last one was discovered by the Tech doing a 30K (car had 26K) inspection. R/R seal, good to go. I had no oil on garage floor at all. On the plus side; the car is still under warranty and I have the latest iteration of seal. On another note; I had them change the plugs and return old ones to me. Not bad but not good. There was some electrode transfer but they were brown. The cat converter on rt side was bad. For a car that is driven as hard as I drive mine it has stood up very well. Had them do a clutch and lw fly wheel while they had it apart. To me RMS is not too big a deal.

PTEC, you hit the nail on the head. I had to replace the rear main on my previous 911 which was air cooled. They are not immune to failure. Anytime I had the engine out, I also replaced the thermostat o-ring and the oil pressure switch. I had a list somewhere of things you should do while the engine is out. Maybe Rennlisters should come up with a list of things for the 996's while the engine is out. I will add my contribution. Replace the oil separator ; If it fails it will make a mess of your engine! A failed one allows your engine to suck huge amounts of oil into the intake. It only costs a little over $100 for the part.

John - Great to see a post from you again! Did you get the keyboard on your laPtoP rePlaCed yEt? (hee hee) Glad your back. How is your brother doing?