Going nuckin futs with a starter issue

I have the slow crank when hot issue. It has increased to no crank when hot and has now left me sit twice. The below items have made a difference in a better crank when cold but still will not crank when hot. I have replaced the starter I have replaced the battery Cleaned the battery posts and connections Cleaned the batter to chassis ground connection at the battery. I have replaced the "y" cable the connects from the Altinator to the starter to the pos jump point. I have been chasing this for over a year now and I'm about to lose it. From what I understand there is one more connection some where on the "trans hump" Where exactly is this? In the cabin or under the car? Can I get to it with out dropping the tranny? I am going to clean that connection and also if there is a ground strap from the block to chassis, I will clean it also. If that doesn't do it, I'm going to pull the starter and take it to a local shop for rebuild. Yes I just put it in, 6 mos ago. But I'm out of other ideas. Thank you for all your help in advance.

Confused. You said you put the starter in 1/2 yr ago but have been chasing this problem for a yr now. So this problem existed even before the current starter?

BTW, if you can reproduce it, you could measure the voltage drop between the battery +ve post and the engine "+" jump terminal (ideally would want to get to the starter "+" but that's difficult to access during cranking. The "+" jump terminal is the closest you can get). Also, the vdrop between the battery -ve post and the engine (not the chassis) during cranking. From the vdrop (anything > 0.5V), you can isolate where you lose your voltage (assuming that's the problem). If not, it's likely the starter. It sounds very much like a heat soaked starter but then you said it's only 1/2 yr old...

Have you checked the engine ground cable? It's on the right rear frame rail and attached to right side cyl. head. Easy to see when the right rear wheel is of.

Yes this is why the starter was changed 1/2 year ago. Ok, I'm going to check the ground strap. Does anyone know where this connection is above the transmission???

Isn't a slow start hot crank a possible bearing issue? I haven't searched here much, but it shouldn't be an electrical issue if it is slow crank when warm. I would take a torque wrench (the old fashioned beam type with a wire rod on a scale) and test how much toque to turn over when it is cold and then do it when it is warm. It should be easier to turn (mechanically) when warm. If that is not the case, you have some issue internal on the engine. If not you can start looking at the starter circuit. Can you jump start the car when hot? If not the engine it can only be the starter as those are the only two items involved here.

Are you ordering vanilla ice cream when the engine won't start? If so, the answer is vapor lock. http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/icecream.asp

Definitely check the engine ground wire located just in front of the right rear wheel. Clean contact points very well. Then I would do as suggested, check the voltage drop between the positive battery terminal and the jumper connector in the engine bay, then from there to the starter. There is another connector point for the 12V + from the battery to the jumper connector under the car near the transmission...another great possibility for corrosion and bad connection. I know it is a small possibility but you could have a bad starter even out of the box. I had problems starting, cold or hot, and a new starter fixed my problems for now 3 years running. I did all the other stuff suggested first and it didn't help, only the new starter did it.

Plus 1 for replacing the engine ground strap, it can look fine but have high resistance that only impacts you when its hot. You can test by using a pair of jumper cables in order to provide a good ground from engine to frame and then try to start when hot.

This may sound silly but shut off your A/C before you shut off the car. Then try a hot restart and see what happens. The A/C compressor could be locking up when it is hot.

replace coolant temp sensor

When hot car has problem starting or sometimes doesn't start at all? Nx time this happens, unplug the coolant temp sensor and start the car. If it starts, that's your problem. It should be behind pass exhaust tip on the block on a 99 I believe...

Quotes source post: 10597340

I believe the problem is a no-crank problem. A coolant temp sensor isn't related to it.

As Ahsai mentioned, some simple diagnostics with a voltmeter should help. At a minimum, it will help you eliminate what the problem is not ... First look at some basic battery voltages: Battery terminal voltage engine off (is the battery charged enough?) Battery terminal voltage engine running (is charging system providing correct voltage?) Battery terminal voltage when engine cranking (how much does the voltage drop at the battery? A basic indication of how much current the starter is drawing) Then start looking at voltage drops: Battery terminal voltage when cranking vs. starter terminal voltage when cranking. This is your total voltage drop through everything. If it is excessive, you start measuring the voltage drop on as many cables and ground straps as you can find, trying to find any cable or connection that is particularly weak. Check starter current. For this, you will need an clamp-type current meter. You probably won't have one, but you can buy them fairly inexpensively... Like $15 on Amazon $15 on Amazon . Check the starter current draw when cold, then when hot. If you see a huge increase the problem is in the starter itself or the engine causing lots of additional drag when hot . Pelican board has some tech notes on this kind of thing as well... Originally written for a 914, but most of it applies... http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarti...arter_diag.htm

Quotes source post: 10597602

follow this advise

Quotes source post: 10597663

I agree. For the OP, what brand starter did you end up getting and was it remanufactured? FWIW, I've had some issues with off brand remanufactured starters in the past that only lasted a few months.

To the OP, are you meaning slow cranking speed as in the engine turns over slowly or just takes longer to fire up?

Car cranks slow and when really warn cranks 1/2 turn them stops.

Listen to your 928 commrads! check what Gaugeman and Kramer suggested.

Ok, tonight, I Checked v at battery 12.3 Checked v after jump point to ENGINE 12.3 Check resistance from pos lead of batt to jump point 0 (fluke) Check resistance from neg lead of batt to ENGINE block 0 ohm It has to be I got a bad starter. Took car for drive, no crank when I got home. Check all voltages again all good.

imho that is too low of voltage for a healthy battery

Quotes source post: 10598417

Forget about measuring resustance. It is not conclusive. The resistance of a bad connection is still too low for a multimeter to read so it would appear normal but when high current is applied, it creates excessive v drop. Volt drop test is the only way to detect those bad connections and corroded wires.

Quotes source post: 10598431

If 12.3v is BEFORE you put the key in, that's a little low. Should be around 12.5v for a fully charged battery. With key in the last position before cranking, 12.3v is about right since the car is already drawing about 10A at that point so 12.3v is not an OPEN circuit voltage. Regardless, the voltage itself cannot guarantee the health of a battery anyway. You need a battery tester (either the load type or the capacitative type) to be conclusive.

Shark, one quick way ato test the ground strap s someone pointed out above, just put a good jumper cable between the battery -ve and the engine airfilter bolt and try to crank again.

If your really thinking its the starter and not bad connections, why not remove it and have it tested? Your going to be removing it anyway or at least the connections so get it over with. While I was that far in, I would carefully check all the cables. Your positive you have a HEALTHY battery? not just volts but load tested? Have you checked system voltage drop while trying to crank after hot? You will need two people and a known GOOD volt meter of course. Use a long positive test lead if you want to connect direct to starter. I would make all my connections while engine is cold. Sorry for your troubles. (oops. looks like I posted same time as Ahsai)

G'day Shark Attack, Sorry to hear your woes, there is nothing worse that having a beautiful piece of machinery and you get left stranded just becasue it has been driven for more that 15 minutes! When I last called out to roadside, they performed a load test on the battery (as described above here) and fortunately it was healthy. Like you, I changed my Y cable (starter/alternater/jump) but the difference is I chose to install a PMGR starter motor. The OEM starter is a type PLGR. I won't try and describe the difference as I don't profess to be an expert. That said, the PMGR spins faster and requires less volts to spin it up. Therefore I release the key before the car ignites and it starts every single time with ease. One thing I did notice, is after changing the Y cable, my voltmeter in the car shows a healthy 14v and then drops to 13 odd volts. Prior to the cable change, luck if the volt guage saw 13... Have you also experienced good volt values on your instrument gauge? Good luck hunting this down. Peter

It's not the eng to chassis ground strap. Pulling starter tomorrow and having it rebuilt locally.

The issue was the started was getting heat soaked from the engine running a little on the hot side from the drivers side radiator fan not kicking in for stage 1 cooling. Repaired the fan and the issue went away

Interesting, thanks for posting back. How did they determine the fan was not coming on (is this something a normal person can check/test)? Good info. DS

Start the car let it warm up. Go to the front and listen for the fan(s) at each intake in the bumper. Turn the air-conditioning on and listen for louder fan noise at each intake. No noise = no fan. Less noise on one side= no high speed fan on that side. Low speed should be on @ ~ 210. High speed ~220 or when air is on.

I've been following this thread since my car too is a bit hesitant to start sometimes, moreso when hot. I usually keep it on a battery tender but recently have been keeping it in a storage unit with no available outlet. I took it out today to change the rotors and took a video just because. It had been started about 30 minutes before. Note the battery at 12V at first, but dipping way down when cranking. It has never failed to start though. 996 startup - YouTube

Quotes source post: 10629630

Can't hear much but looks like it's starting strong if you watch how fast the tach goes up. Voltage dropping to 10V-10.5V is entirely normal. If it drops below 9.8V or so, you have a problem.

Would it be a good idea for knfeparty to try and replace the Y cable or is this showing symptoms of the starter being heat soaked? I show the exact symptoms as above and in the summer I always feel like im going to be stranded. I checked to see if my rad fans were functioning properly and they are. Saw your post about the Y cable and I'm wondering if I should change that as a start.

Quotes source post: 10630016

Okay great I will continue to not worry about it then. The car always starts, it just starts with a bit more enthusiasm after it's been on the battery charger as opposed to when it hasn't been.

Quotes source post: 10630718

You may want to check the battery voltage when the key is at the last position before you crank (drawing 10A already). It should read 12.3v or more. If it's less, the battery is not fully charged. Some possibilities are: low charging voltage, which should be between 13.2V (with all load) to 14V (right after engine cold start). Or you have a parasitic drain overnight.

Quotes source post: 10630560

I like to make sure something is bad before replacing it. It takes a couple of hrs to replace this cable so it would be a bummer if it does not improve anything afterwards. Granted, the updated cable is much improved so it won't hurt. You can do a voltage drop test of this cable and the corrosion will show up as excessive voltage drop. Just measure the voltage between the B+ terminal at the back of the alternator and the engine jump start +ve terminal with a/c and low beam ON (50A load total). If you see anything > 0.2v, the cable is bad. Also, if the cable is bad, your voltage will most likely drop below 13.2V if you turn on the most heavy loads - a/c, low beam, rear defroster, and heated seats (90A total load). The reverse may not be true because a marginal/bad regulator/alternator will also produce low voltage even with a perfect cable.