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YOUR RESEARCH3.8 engine conversion ? how much ?
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Check car over this week and my indy also felt
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We checked the car over this week and my indy also felt that I had flashed the ECU, which I havn't.
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My engine is a 3.6, but please share your information about your build and what it means in terms of parts being changed/upgraded and also cost.
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$1000 to balance crankshaft and check/clean/rebuild heads
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I was just thinking today so what if I loved my 996 enough to not sell it ever... and not buy a gt3...
how much would a 3.8 engine upgrade would cost ?
Many have done it on broken engines, for +-$15k, but i don't remember anybody doing it on an healthy engine. Would that be any cheaper ?
I am not really planning to do it myself, but for the sake of forum conversation, I figured that would be a good talk
That's an interesting thought. I would think probably between $15 to 20k when it's said and done?
I think I would be more tempted to move to the 9A1 platform in a few years once they prove their robustness (having 40% less parts than M96 yada yada...)
But if you like your car, $15-$20 won't get you a decent 2009 or better vehicle.
On the other hand, you won't get your $18k back out of the car, either. decisions....decisions....
the idea would be to make a 3.8 an d bief up all the component that have been a bit cheaped out like
- ims
- chain tensioner
- secondary oil pump
- aos
would be interested to have people here posting the list of part they thing can be upgraded for high reliability
Base of the discussion : never ever ever sell the car.. or the pain will be strong
Still at the current value of our cars, let's say +- $20k, that is so far from $60k of gt3 or 997.2 cars.
So I figured a $10k - $15k investment bringing the cost to $35k is 'sane'
I know you don't want to sell, but why not go ahead and do it, put the cost of the upgrade on top of that, and go buy a 997? From a pricing standpoint, you're almost there.
My theory is if you like the car, why wait until you have to upgrade the engine. Do it now & do it right & enjoy it now. By the time the rebuilt engine has 150K+ miles on it you will be ready to trade into a OldsmoBuick.
I hear you... and that is a bit the reason for the trade, not that I really want to do it.. but may be a little discussion might make me change my mind and jump on it.
I just want to hear our fellow rennlister opinion and ideas about the dream 3.6 upgrade
Phil, now your talking...
Depending on how many parts you want to upgrade I would say a healthy engine can be rebuilt with LN 3.8 for $12,000 to $15,000.
$4099 for re-sleeve includes pistons, rings, clips
$1699 for billet rods
$800 for ARP studs and bolts
$895 for triple row IMS
$270 for billet chain tensioner
$726 for gaskets
$107 for AOS
$99 for low temp stat
$1100 for main and rod bearings
$360 for new water pump
$350 freight to LN and back
$1000 to balance crankshaft and check/clean/rebuild heads
Labor 40+- hours labor $3000 to $4000 depending on negotiated price
Miscellaneous another $500
Now, these parts can be bought for less of course. But you will be hard pressed to find an indy that will allow you to drop off all your discounted parts in a box for them to assemble. Most mechanics will not warranty parts given to them from the car owner. So you are better off negotiating a discount on parts and labor in order to have a full warranty for your build.
One of the biggest concerns is the time it takes to rebuild. LN has a waiting time of 1-2 months maybe longer. The plating can hold the job up too. So, plan to be without your car for at least 3 months.
Correct hence I said
after a few years
but I know you won't be able to enjoy the 3.8 in the meantime....
So I think your 3.8 upgrade makes sense if you want to do it NOW since getting a 997.1 doesn't make much sense. Can't upgrade the IMS (just look at their IMS poll ~5% failure. BTw, our numebrs are better at 3%+
)
Carey, thanks for the numbers !
I assume there is also a need to some ECU tuning to get the most of the new engine, no ?
What kind of power do you get out of your 3.8
? did you dyno it .. yet ?
We didn't need tune the ecu. But I may decide to get a custom tune at some point. The motor made 330 rwhp and 300 rwtq. The dyno test was done with only 100 miles on motor. I'm sure she is stronger now. You need to drive my car before you commit to an upgrade. Actually, I think it would be fun to drive a 3.6 again to gauge the power gains.
I hope Jake doesn't mind me quoting him. He sent this to me about a month ago when I was curious about the same thing...
"Our engines are all inclusive at this level and need nothing after our reconstruction process. We make this a simple process with all items included. The price of our stage I 3.6>3.8 is $18,500 when carried out electively. The stage II engine is roughly 21.5K.
These prices include installation, testing and all associated costs, they are not "cheap, get you in the door prices" like others quote. Each engine is assembled by one pair of hands from start to finish, which takes roughly 100 hours of life to create."
If you are curious the differences between Stage 1 and 2, it's on the Flat 6 Innovations website.
I need to rebuild my engine. To many track hours on it. 3.8l will be the way I go. There is no point doing anything else when you have to rebuild anyways. Owning a widebody makes me do stupid things specially when the newer models don't look as nice.
I wish !
I'd love to rebuild an engine myself, but I dont' think I'll attempt that before I retire. Coolest project ever, but I still have to go to work every day
Hey Phil, you're really dead set on this path, as opposed to 997.2? I just checked their prices. Lowest was around $55k with 23k miles, not too bad....wait a yr or two their prices will be pushed down by the 991's..and the rest of the car will be 6+ yrs younger....just saying.
I have to say that at $50k for a 997.2 it start to be interesting
Just that it will be a used base, while the 3.8 upgrade give me a new engine and lighter car
Ahhh the beauty of choice !
a 997.2 will not be as fast as a built 3.8 in a 996. I would do the 3.8 sounds unique.
Jumper. i feel the same way about my 4s, perhaps supercharge first then 3.8l when it breaks!
Looking for some education. My buddy just sold his 997.2 to get a 991. I've driven in the 997. In my crazy opinion, my car looks better and has almost the same performance. With a 3.8 I think I would surpass him. What about the 997 is leaning you that way? Suspension? Styling? Help me here. Please do not say the freakin headlights.
a few years back I really wanted a 997 bad because of ...the headlights
But now I just really love my interior, really cool unique design in the 996.
Afterall the only real competition at the price is upgrading for a turbo car. But I am not a fan of heavier.
You forced me to use my Jedi powers of interwebs searching:
The completely new motors:
�do not have an intermediate shaft
�have 40% fewer engine components
�have the water pump is mounted outside the engine for easier service
�have a water pump th that pushes 20% more volume
�are fitted with DFI (direct fuel injection)
�do not require a secondary air-injector system like the 996 and early 997 motors
�are more fuel efficient (sorry, I don't recall the percent improvement)
Not too shabby I suppose. I didn't feel any of that in the seat, but it's there I can't deny.
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...gIndex=3&Log=0
385hp 0-60 in 4.1s $50k Can you feel it now?
Sorry I had to cheat hehe....no question a 3.8 will kick ***.
nice good torque from 3500-6500 rpm.... !! not that you need it but a good set of cams would really flatten out the top region but I don't know if it's worth the headache if any...
do you have high flow cats on that?
I know the GT3 torque is a little flatter and higher from 5000 and beyond ... but heck that's a $40K motor... the GT3 gears are also taller than the 996 which probably explains why you are keeping up in a strait line..
this thing must fly at the track... I bet you never shift above 6500 ??
SAE corrected I assume?.... For a non-flashed ECU it's running pretty lean, almost too lean. Have you ever connected a PWIS and checked the ECU?
To OP: Phil is your car a 3.4 or 3.6? I ask because installing 3.8 sleeves & pistons with a 3.4 crank & rods gives you something like a 3.6+ but definitely not a 3.8. Very, very torquey though. My engine builder is building 3 of them right now and one's for me. Ask if you're interested in more details....
JR, can you be more specific regarding your lean comment? What are you seeing on the dyno sheet that makes you sugest the motor is running lean? I was not present when my builder did the dyno test. But, I can tell you the motor was completed a year ago and I've put over 8000 trouble free miles on it since completion.
When the motor was being built Logan aka Logray was also building his 3.4 to 3.6 upgrade. He felt he his motor was running lean and actually switched to 3.6 injectors. That got me thinking if I should switch to the 3.8 injectors. However, my mechanic said it wasnt necessary at that time. I would appreciate any insight you could offer on this subject.
JR,
My engine is a 3.6, but please share your information about your build and what it means in terms of parts being changed/upgraded and also cost.
Do you think any parts removed could be resold ? My engine works perfectly so may be the pistons have value for someone else...
Does not look lean to me, as a general rule most NA motors are aiming for around 14:1 Afr, FI cars closer to 12 to one or lower.On tip in cars are usually lean due to emissins and fatten up under WOT. I would get a custom tune though as i am sure you are leaving power on the table even from an optomized tuning perspective vs a set on kill tune. Nice numbers though!
Another plus to upgradeing the engine beyond what is available from the factory is the engine belongs to you. If the car is stolen usually it is recovered & even if it is wrecked &/or totaled you can transfer the engine to another car.
x2. Some tuners would rather leave a bigger safety margin on the table than others by getting as close to the 14.7:1 ratio as possible. Obviously, the closer you get the more risk but also more power. On the edge ragged tuning is more risky IMO on FI vehicles as you can blow your motor more easily than on NA. I personally wouldn't worry as long as you stay consistent with your gas and you plan on not making any more changes to your setup.
I think the 997.2s are going to surprise people.
The 991 feels like the 996 to me. They arent moving well and Porsche is doing, IMO, *unprecedented* lease deals on them - almost BMW level.
The 991 is bigger, and more clinical than ever, and has some visual cues that people seem to critique much like the 996 did.
I wouldnt say the 991 will be *as bad* as the 996 (thanks to the internet I think the 996 will go down as the worst valued 911 in history), but I don't think its going to put significant pressure on the 997.2 which very well may be seen as the "last traditional 911 that is modern yet doesnt blow up and isnt completely sanitized"
Time will tell, but I think there will be a big difference between 997.1 and 997.2 in value as a result of the massive and endless IMS FUD. Meanwhile, I suspect that the 996 will continue to depreciate at a quicker rate. In other words, whatever the "sell 996, buy 997.2" spread is now? By the time the 997.2 reaches whatever lower price point, I think the 996 will be even lower proportionately and that much harder to sell.
I grapple with this same question... Sometimes I think that ultimately I'd want either a turbo or a 997.2 and I frequently think that I should cut and run sooner rather than later and stay "Porscheless" until I can afford to make the jump. My *only* hope is that the 996 values at least level off. I had thought they were leveling but I'm not so sure lately.
I would agree with most of what you say but seriously how much lower can the price of a 996 go? You'd have to go back to a mid 1970s 911 to match the price that I see some 996s going for now.
Now that some solutions have been created in the marketplace there is a potential for the 996 to level off and be considered a good buy - especially for the track enthusiast who just wants a good car for a DE.
Think about the 964 and how that car had been decreasing in value until it was discovered that all of the "problems" were now solvable and the car was a good deal of fun on the track.
You can't compare a street M96 motor to a F1 motor. 14:1 is lean for this motor.
How does running leaner provide a safety margin? A larger safety margin would be 13:1 where this mtotor belongs...
The motor's being built are 3.4 crank & rod motors with 3.4 heads & cams. They're designed for 3.4 cars & electronics or cable TB. They have Carillo rods, ARP bolts, JE pistons, fancy head work, etc. etc. They'll make 330whp easy, 350 with a flash and more with injectors, TB, 5-bar regulator, etc...
Since you're a healthy running 3.6 my advise would be to build that motor into whatever you want. Definitely use better rods, pistons, bolts......
Gotta love passive/aggressive people. Are you my x-wife?
Yes it drops to 13:1 for about 1,000 RPM's but runs mostly at 13:5 to 14:1. What was you point again?...
Hey chill, you're reading too much into my question. My point (if there was one) was maybe there's some significance of 13 hence the dashed line there. I was trying to support you
Sorry, I react to anything that remotely reminds me of that miserable woman....
It's not terribly out of whack which is why I said "almost" too lean. He's getting great WHP from that motor so I assume it's flashed which is leaning out the motor. I've got several Dynojet runs on 3.6 X51's and never seen anything over 310 rwhp, SAE corrected. I think it's too lean for a stock ECU without something being off which is why I suggest hooking up a PWIS and checking it out. Good indy's have one, or P-car dealers....
JR,
Are you installing the dual oil pump system that LN engineering is selling ? requires some cam cover modification if I remember well.
It would be great if you could have an exhaustive list of the stuff you are adding. I think it would move the thread forward with some data coming from a spec996 racer perspective.
Phil.
OEM a/f's are around 10.5-12. Run it too lean such as 14.0 and the engine runs hotter and can’t take as much ignition advance thereby loosing torque and overall HP. You also risk burning holes in the top of the pistons.....
I'm pretty sure you know all this. Why do you think 14:1 is OK? Have you ever run a M96 motor that lean for any length of time? Do you know of any shop that recommends or programs their M96's to run that lean?....
OEM in terms of FI cars? I have to disagree with OEM NA cars. I've measured and datalogged some cars and definitely not down in the 10.5-12 NA.
FWIW, I've ran into tuners with both schools of thought and I'm not sure if there is any "right" way. However depending on an engine/setup, there might be a best way but it will be specific and not someone can generalize imo.
More ignition advance and more fuel to counter act the heat generated. Less ignition advance and lean it up. The latter I've seen more of on NA engines where as dumping more fuel and advancing the ignition seems to be more common place among FI setups from the tuners I've seen.
Important to note though is I've never met a m96 tuner or have any experience in tuning m96 motor specifically so this train of thought might not be applicable to the characteristics of the M96 motor.
I would really like someone like Bisi to chime in on this.
My car is in the shop for service this week. I asked my mechanic to check fuel ratio and give his recommendations. I may decide to install a custom tune and perform a dyno test in the next few weeks.
Update on air/fuel ratio. We checked the car over this week and my indy also felt that I had flashed the ECU, which I havn't. The motor runs a bit lean in lower rpms but then begins to run rich at higher rpms. All in all he was confident the motor was running fine. No custom tune planned just yet. Id rather spend the $ on seat time.
This is a chart of the AFRs of a factory, unmolested 996:
A Motec PLM was used to capture the data, and the sensor was calibrated prior to the session. As you can see, the AFRs hovered in the 14.2 range, from factory.
The power output to the wheels:
The engine had 36,000 miles.
I hope that sheds some light.
Thanks Bisi for your insights and actual measurement data.
Do you plan on exploring NA m96 tuning or do you think there isn't much more left on the table? This is in regards to tuning with NA bolt ons.
Also, any plans to come out with your own m96 turbo kits in the future?
So I just finished a bottom end build.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/apex944...7633702078228/
Here is a list of parts for you to plan with. This is pretty much the minimum # of parts you can get away with for doing a split case rebuild. Heads are being left alone for "phase 1" ... over the winter they will get built.
Found a parts place in Ohio (ECS Tuning) that will match best prices. Their prices are usually lowest anyway. If they don't list it they will order from PCNA or OEM at deep discounts. Just put a PCNA part# into their search bar with no "." to see prices.
Case parts:
� OE Single row IMS bearing $165 **. Not sure I need it.
� Secondary air injection blanking plates
� Case half water jacket gaskets. $8.00
� Case to water hose flange gasket. $3.00
� New front main seal, Victor Reinz 999-113-475-40-M17 (PP)
� New 997 rear main seal, Victor Reinz 997.101.212.01-M17 (PP)
� New Oil Separator Gaskets, OEM
� New air oil separator (AOS)
Crankshaft Cradle / Bearing Carrier
� Professionally cleaned
� New carrier bolts.
Crankshaft
� New Thrust Washers, German OEM
� New Main Bearings 1-7, 14x, Glyco $37 ea.
� Crankshaft Pilot Bearing 2400 (new w/ LWFW)
� Complete assembly dynamically balanced ($225)
� M97 3.8 harmonic dampening crankshaft pulley
Connecting Rods
� Rod bearings $7 each. Glyco
� Carrillo 99603>-65590H (Tool steel bolts)
Pistons
� JE 99mm overbore pistons 11.8:1 CR
� New piston pin clips
� New Piston Rings, JE
Cylinder Head:
� 3.8 factory head gaskets, Porsche # 997 104 201 02
$39.99 ea. Elring. Note new pn# ends in -03
� Head Bolts (OEM or ARP $230)
� New spark plug tube seals, 12x
� Exh Gaskets 99611110755
Timing Chain
� New Timing VC & Chain guides, OEM
� New Chain Rail O�rings, OEM, 6x
� New Camshaft Plastic Cover Plugs, OEM, 6x
� New aluminum crush washers 6mm & 8mm, Reinz
� New zinc plated 6mm & 8mm lock nuts, Wurth
� New timing chains
� TENSIONER PAD 99610519500
� TIMING CHAIN GUIDE 99610516651
� TIMING CHAIN GUIDE 99610516555
� DOWEL PIN 99610111753
� WASHER 90023404001
� SCREW 6 X 40 90007548601
� IWIS TIMING CHAIN R99610517053 $22.99
Intermediate shaft
� New Intermediate Shaft Housing mating seal, OEM
� New Intermediate Shaft Housing mating O'ring, OEM
� New IMS Chain
� Tig weld sprockets to IMS tube
Belt Tensioner
� New Tensioner Dust Boots, Reinz
� New serp belt (shorter for smaller pulley)
Cooling System
� Water Cover Plate, Reinz
� Water Cover Plate Gasket, Reinz
� New Thermostat Housing Gasket, Reinz
� New Water Pump Gasket, Reinz 996-106-340-54-OEM (PP)
� New 160* T-Stat 462-160 MotoRad (PP)
� Waterpump pn# 997.106.011.02 (997 3.6L)
� Replace many coolant and AOS hoses
Oil System
� New Oil Filter, Napa
� New Filler Tube Seal, Reinz
� Replace scavenge pump if needed
� LNE billet oil pump hex driver $20
� OEM oil pump pressure spring & piston
� New Oil Level Dip Stick Seal, Reinz
� New Oil Guide Tube Seal, Reinz
� New Oil pressure sender
� New Oil Level Sender Seal, Reinz
� New oil cooler seals, 4x Reinz
� New Oil Pump Housing Gasket, Reinz
� New Oil Pump Housing O�rings, Reinz
� New Oil Pump Gaskets Reinz
� Magnetic Drain Plug LNE
� New Drain Plug Gasket Reinz
� 10 quarts BR break-in oil
Electrical
� New OXS (Amazon) $54
� New plugs
Bill, thanks for the great post. The pictures are very impressive. It looks like a skilled surgeon at work. I am thrilled to see the recipe for a 3.8 engine in a non-egas 3.4 No matter how hard I romp on mine, I can not get the engine to fail. If it ever does, your solution looks like fun.
These kinds of upgrades always cost more than they are worth and usually cost more than the first estimate anyway.
The exception is if you just want to burn your money for fun. Nothing wrong with that, if you have the cash to burn and its what you want to do.
However, as others have said, you will never get that money back if/when you sell the car and you are always open to additional problems that you did not expect that chip away at your budget.
Seriously, buying a used GT3 would be a far, far better investment as you not only get a superior dry sump engine, but you get a better transmission, brakes, suspension, and chassis.
Additionally, the resale value on the GT3 will always be better than even a stock 996.
I daily drive my GT3 (81K miles now) and it's no big deal to drive these cars on the street.
They are all mechanical devices built by men and women. Not sugar cubes built by magic gnomes. They all have issues and will break. Buy them, drive them, break them, fix them, repeat. If you want a garage queen, get a gold chain and a Ferrari.
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