Opinion on potential 996 with some issues...

Just looked at a one owner 1999 C2 with ~ 43k miles on it, 6spd, coupe, excellent condition. Being sold at a dealer, no maint. history, but Carfax shows regular service intervals performed with notes. PPI uncovered an oil leak at the crank case either RMS/IMS problem (I'm aware of issues) needs a new ignition lock as it can cut off the a/c if key turned too far to the right, and there is an issue with the horn needing to be repaired/replaced. Clutch was replaced at about 25k, and feels brand new still. Was asking 23k, now looking for $21,500 after PPI, and I get repairs done on my own. (PPI mechanic, who was recommended by fellow rennlisters estimates about 2k to get work done). Btw, I would get the ceramic IMS from LNE. I don't think I'm going to find a better car for the $, but always interested to hear the opinions you guys have, as you are well versed. And of course, I included a pic of the potential new ride.

Welcome. car looks fine. Since you pointed out the engine leak; I'd go a bit further to inspect the AOS, oil cooler, coil packs, water pump. what's the condition of the coolant expansion tank? if it's yellowing, R & R is about $500 plus. Have you taken it for a long(ish) test drive? how does it sound and feel? hows the clutch action and the throws? Paint looks good in the pics, how is it up close? Have you inquired thoroughly as to accident history? that alone would warrant another couple thou in discount. What's the interior like? any leather wrinkling around the windshield area or in the rear compartment? for a 99, if it were a private sale, a fair value would be $20K or less, IMO. I have seen ALOT of basic 996's for sale; both here and on other sites ( ebay, carmax, cars.com, etc), so the supply is out there. You can pretty much call the shots; so add up the sales tax, registration, doc fees and the incidentals, and see if you can get a deal on this one. Or move on to the next one.

Welcome to the 996 world. You'll love it. IMHO, a '99 with RMS/IMS issues is a sub $20k car.

Clutch was replaced at 25k? That's seems a bit early so I wonder if at that point did it already receive the updated IMS? Just for comparison and I know that the market is different etc.. but I paid $21,500 for mine and it is close to flawless.

I would pass on this car . There are plenty of nice 996s around with no problems or immediate needs. A friend just purchased a nice 03 996 C2 Cab for under $19K. Not perfect, but passed PPI with no mechanical defects noted.

I agree. A 99 with RMS or IMS issues is definetely a sub $20k car! I still see 03's going for $30k (probably selling for $26k-$28K) - so that 03 must of had high mileage, or was a real steal...

Thanks for the replies, I'm going to answer each individually. The other point I would mention is that this car is only about 200 miles from my house, so I can see it and inspect vs. buying sight unseen -- also, saves on shipping, which can be factored into overall price. 2K3, -- I didn't go into each detail as I didn't want to bore everyone but the coolant tank was white, and had either been replaced, or hasn't had the yellowing, cracking issues. I took the car on a solo test drive for about an hour and a half altogether. No weird noises, slightly low idle on startup, and then after a few seconds, gets right where it needs to be. The clutch and throws felt perfect. The paint was perfect, I couldn't even find a door ding. The mechanic hooked it up on the Porsche diagnostics, and ran it through everything, as well as drove the **** out of it, and said everything looked and felt great, still had all of the pull and power in all of the gears, and he also agreed the clutch felt great. He didn't think there was any AOS issues, coil issues, or water pump issues. Said I'd probably get about another 10k on the water pump, before I'd want to replace it. He's been a Porsche mechanic since '83, and started his own shop in '04. Hal -- Thanks for the welcome. I've wanted a Porsche since I was an 8 year old kid, and finally in a position to have one. It will be my second car (first P-Car), so I'll drive it a few days a week, as well as the weekend occasionally. May decide to make it a daily driver, but not at first. Hal, I don't disagree with your assessment on price, I've looked at what feels like a thousand, so feel like I have a decent grasp on price. But figured no matter what I got, I would probably be looking at a 2k rms/ims replacement, just for piece of mind. Maybe I'm an idiot, but I like to hedge my downside, so if this car was going to have it anyway, that was an upside to me. JDog -- it's very possible that it's an RMS issue and that the IMS has been replaced, but the mechanic didn't get down to the RMS or IMS, so it could be either. But as we all know, if you're going to do one, you might as well do the other. It's possible when he opens it up the IMS has been replaced, in which case I'll ship back the dual bearing IMS back to LNE and get a refund. Morgana -- Thanks for the information, how many miles did your friends '03 cab have on it, and what state did he/she buy it in? Thanks again for all of your input, your info has been very helpful.

$19,100 tops for a 99 coupe per this source: http://www.excellence-mag.com/resour...ide/1041874889 Have you already checked KBB, NADA, Edmunds, autotrader, CL and completed listings on ebay? Sounds like you've done your homework/research so if this car SINGS to you and you can SWING the list price, then I say GIT R DONE and start enjoying your first P-car.

Krom -- I have compared it to KBB, NADA, Auto-Trader, and Ebay. I would say that the condition it is in with those miles is on the low end of the range. I know I can get one for high teens, but with 100k or so miles on it, in inferior condition. This one is in great condition, and you will pay a premium for that (or apparently, at least I will consider doing so). Thanks for info -- I looked at Excellence early on in my search, but have heard a lot of Rennlisters say their values seemed to be a bit skewed...thoughts?

I paid $29K for my car albeit Excellence, same sources you cited and consensus here pointed to mid $20K as ideal. I willingly paid a PREMIUM price because it had everything I was looking for (i.e. MY02 or younger, arctic silver, cab, tip, under 75K miles, aero kit, ZERO pending mechanical issues after a PPI). P.S. As a bonus, the seller modded the pipes and airbox for free and offered future service credits. The car I bought had UNLISTED goodies (healthy list of factory options, 19-in rims, hardwired radar detector/diffuser, clear bra, upgraded audio). I knew it was THE CAR when I saw it, after I took it for a test drive and after it passed PPI. It was the first and only car I looked at Every car in the mid-$20K range fell short of what I was looking for (older than MY02, rough exterior/interior, excessive mileage, base model, repairs imminent, etc.). All other comparable cars LOCAL to me were priced upwards of $30K. How close is $21.5K to the ballpark price you have gleaned from the sources you have checked? If it is close enough, BUY IT.

Having just sold my 996, I would say this car is worth about $18K to move. You can price anything you want but it is what buyers are willing to pay. Suspension, AOS, RMS, IMS bearing, waterpump and coolant tank would be on my list in order to drive this car worry free. This list is not be cheap.

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No offense, but Excellence magazine doesn't buy cars and they don't have any for sale either. If you check the sources you listed, you'll find asking prices to be significantly higher than what Excellence printed in their article.

The price is in the ballpark of what I expected, I wasn't really searching for anything >25k dollars-- my wishes are quite pedestrian -- I want one with lower miles, coupe, manual, great condition, and not yellow (I'm familiar with the garage queen theory, etc., but still want to go with lower "ish" miles). At this point, these cars are aging, so there are going to be issues with them from time to time. I planned on getting the IMS/RMS done when the clutch went, but since the clutch has already been done, if I can negotiate the repair in (which I'm pretty close I think) then I'm getting a 99 with 43k miles, and a new ims/rms...In your opinion, is a car that has had an ims/rms issue more likely to have additional issues, if there was no catastrophic failure before it was replaced? Like all people getting into a 996 at this stage in the game, I think my primary concern is buying it, driving it home, and catastrophic failure. Worst case, I'm out 8k or so, but I'm going to feel like a moron after spending all of this time researching (read as lurking) and buying a car that is nothing but problem after problem. I'm trying to do the best I can to buy a car for a reasonable price, that is not likely to have a ton of problems. I can change brakes and oil on my own, and that is about the extent of my automotive capability. Other than that, I'll be using an indy. I respect the hell out of the guys that have torn their own cars apart in their garage, only to put them all back together again, but I don't have that skillset. Whew, got a little off topic in there, but I think I got my point/concern across. Thanks again to all who are listening!

Thanks CHSU. The PPI said coolant housing looked like it had been replaced and was in good order, AOS was good (at least for now) and suspension was working in good order. The leak at crank case was their primary concern (and mine as well).

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no offense taken at all, merely offered it as one of many sources of info for comparison. INVIUS, chsu 74 just sold his car and was a PERFECT example of what a thoroughly sorted out "previously owned" car should be....that is one lucky buyer IMHO.

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Thanks! I was not planning to sell my car until last Saturday night at around 10 PM. Its a good car and will go to a good home.

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PEACE OF MIND is priceless and no doubt the future owner of your car will have lots of it.

If the car is at a dealer, they dont have any more than NADA wholesale into it. You should negotiate based on that number. When I bought mine, I paid $2000 over NADA wholesale. They were asking 8000 more than I paid. If they just got it, they may be willing to carry it for a few weeks. If its been sitting there for a few weeks they may be more likely to deal. Just remember that they aren't emotionally attached to it and just want to turn a profit. If you have real money they don't want to let you get away no matter what they say.

That's an early '99, tail lights give it away. There were several improvements on the later '99s. The car has 17" wheels too, much less sought after than the 18s. Thought you should know before you consider what to pay and if you want this car. One owner and no service records? How about all the books, manuals, and tools? Are all 3 keys there?

SSST -- it's at a dealer that sells high line autos, they took it on trade. Agreed, on the NADA wholesale. I'm getting the "at this price, we're not making any money, just doing to earn your business quote"...which happens everytime I buy a car. That said, the clean NADA trade in on this car is $21,775. Assuming they gave them average and reconditioned it to get it in this shape, or beat the guy up that was trading it in, they would be at $19,750 at average trade in. I'll work more towards that price and see what happens. I don't mind someone making a little money, but if I'm taking all of the risk of ownership, the savings needs to be proportional to that. Also, they have had this car for a few months now. Nick -- All of the books, manuals, tools, and all three keys are present. The PPI mechanic checked all of that and used the headlight removal tool to take them out and check for any body work issues that may have been hiding behind where the lights would have been pulled, but said everything was as it should be. Agreed on the early '99, mechanic also noted he could tell by the radio, and a pattern or type of bolts on the car that changed in the latter years.

"At this price we're not making any money" yea, how long you think they would be in business if they sold cars and didn't make money. I'd be insulted if they said that to me and would ask him if he thought I was an idiot. I mean, do I look like an idiot? The car is worth what's worth even if they got it for free. So take what you think they paid for it out of the equation, it means nothing. I'm going to go against the grain here and say if you take out a perfectly good bearing you're F'n nuts. It makes me crazy, it's just so nuts. I'm not getting into an IMS debate either. These guys found a niche in your fears, good for them I guess. That's it, I'll be quiet now.

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I will have to agree with this. Do a search on how much people are being offered on trade in on this board. It is not $18K for a car like that; more like mid to low teens.

Invius, I bought a low mile (28,000) 1999 Cab over 4 years ago and it has been great. No issues. I have agonized over the IMS issues many times but now I'm starting to hear that the early ones had less problems due to the dual row bearings. I just change the oil and filter frequently and enjoy it. Mine had the 17" wheels when I got it and changed to 18's a couple of years ago. If you like the car buy it and enjoy it. Cheers

Paint, check, interior, check, engine condition, check, test drive, check, electronics ( radio, turn signals, A/C, headlights, ), check. About all I would envision is to pry drop the engine or trans when the time comes to do the clutch and inspect the IMS, RMS. And look forward to getting the oil changed as needed ( depending on how much or how little driving you do). Invius, you are definitely up to the task as far as getting some good info here and further on the mechanic's checkup. I think a good purchase would be at $19.5 give or take a few hundo. Good luck.

I wouldn't touch that car. What was the clutch replaced at 25K? The pressure plates are known to go bad sometimes but that is quite early. This car is plain jane and certainly doesn't reflect anywhere near the best of the breed. I would not buy a car just because it was closer to where I live. If you need to see a car with you own eyes, buy a one way ticket and drive it home. Keep in mind that these early 99s could have some substantial issues. Remember that if the RMS is leaking, that doesn't mean that it just needs the most up to date seal. Some of these early cars had bad castings and if the Porsche developed tool to inspect the area says the engine is out of spec, they replaced these engines because they would never stop leaking. The IMS is it's own separate issue but don't forget about the RMS.

Sounds like you've driven it more on your test ride than I have mine in the last month. You have checked out thing things pretty well and sound like you know your way around cars. From what you are describing, this sounds like a nice find at a fair price. Way too many people put price ahead of everything else like it's the sole most important thing about buying an item. The very best plan for negotiation is to make sure the car checks out and you will be a buyer at an agreeable price. Decide exactly what you feel the car is worth to you. Make an offer for a little ($1k-$2k) less with some earnest money, $500-$5000 in the form of cash, cashiers check made out to the dealer. Better yet, a cashiers check made out for the full amount of your offer. The biggest problem car salesmen have, are indecisive and wishy washy customers, ones that will verbally commit to buy, then say they have to ask their wife, sleep on it, ask the credit union, prey, or any one of a thousand excuses. Cash talks, BS walks. Show the cash, the more the better, tell them you don't have to ask your wife and the money is ready and available, and you have made up your mind that you would like to purchase this car. Also tell them that the price you offer is for the car as it sits and you do not expect anything thrown in or other adjustments. Be concise, be clear and you will be able to buy at a price at or below what you value the car to be. By doing this you have saved the sales team an awful lot of time and frustration which they will appreciate. Good Luck!

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This car is 13 yrs old. Expect things to go from age, FL heat, and lack of use. Just one example I saw multiple times when I was in the market: The A/C vents in the center console are plastic and don't like being closed up in the FL heat. They tend to lose their friction & won't stay in place, and cost several hundred $ to replace. Basically anything made or rubber or plastic, after 13 yrs in FL has seen better days regardless of how nice the dealer's detailer made it look. The PPI might give you some peace of mind about large single items, but unless you're an inveterate DIY'er, your time is worth nothing (retired) and/or you don't care if you're constantly fixing this or that, you might really want to consider paying more but getting a newer car. That said, it's a beauty and perhaps has been very well cared-for, which counts for a lot. I would not worry that the clutch was changed at 25K, as mine was changed @ 30K with only half its life gone, merely because the pedal was uncomfortably stiff for me. I wouldn't expect that the IMS bearing was replaced though. 25K (assuming regular driving) would've been in 2006 and I don't believe the LN bearing existed then.

Be patient. I looked for my car for 8 months before I bought mine last Sept. My only requirements were that it be a 6-spd Cab, under 50K miles, with full leather. I probably looked at 50+ cars both at dealers and private sellers. I only asked to drive about a dozen. Asking prices ranged from $19.9 to $35K. Then one Sunday, my wife actually found the one I ended up buying online. Went to see it and bam...when you know, you know. However, I was willing to (and did) walk away from alot of cars. As so many others have stated, if you have the desire and the means, it is way too easy to get emotional on the purchase of your first Porsche and end up buying the wrong car. There are too many out there to choose from for anyone not to be picky and find the best deal.

That oil leak would give me pause too. But given what you said about your mechanic road testing and diagnostic testing the car, it probably is not the IMS that is leaking, more likely the RMS. A leaky RMS is not, IMO, a deal killer as they are usually resolved by the update kits now available. How about offering to pay for an oil and filter change. Then you can get a look at the filter element. If it is metal free, I would do the deal, and discount the price for the oil change. P.S. I love that color combination!

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Or you could just pay for a new filter and 1 quart of oil given that is all you lose when you take the filter off. Some folks assume that all 9 quarts could run out of the engine by just removing the filter. It doesn't work like that.

Funny Story: I had the PPI done down in Naples. I live in Tampa, FL, and drove 3 hours to look at the car, drive it, and get the PPI done (advertised as no issues...obviously not the case, but it warranted the 3 hour drive there and 3 hours back). Anyway, I set an appointment at Auto Europa in Naples. There used to be a great Porsche mechanic that worked there, and they [I]used[I] to be well respected for their Euro work. I show up on time, with the car, and tell the manager the same thing I requested on the phone-- PPI, as well as remove oil filter, cut it open, look for ferrous metals, and replace it with a new one, and a quart or so oil that is lost. I show up, and am directed to the service manager who informs me "we don't really work on Porsche's these days." My reply was something along the lines of "funny, why are you guys still setting appointments for them then?" Anywho, as fortune happened, they still had the number of the very well respected P-Car mechanic who used to work there and called him. the break-up was bad, but he agreed to meet with me (Russ Fournier, couldn't be a nicer guy) I tried to find him through various forms of cyber-stalking, but only came up with a bad e-mail address, and no new location. Anywho, if you need a PPI done in or around Naples, Russ's new shop is Naples Euro Sport [phone removed], and he is a great guy.