Uh-Oh! Need some advice.....

Took my new to me 996 to a local independant shop that was recommended to me by a Rennlister. The owner seemed like a good guy, they specialize in Porsches but do work on other foreign cars (although 2 Porsches in the shop when I got there). I asked about the price for an oil change and he said it would be $175 and they could do it then if I wanted to wait. I had time and wanted it done so I waited. I had some other questions about tires and such (mine are dry rotted) and he was helpful. After a while he came and and said he needed to show me something . He said they always cut open the filter and mine had some shiney particles - not a lot, but enough that I am getting it taken care of NOW. He said my car really should be fine, we caught it early but it does need attention - I asked him for a price - he said he would work it up and call me later in the afternoon. I spoke with him this afternoon and the price to install the IMS retrofit kit and the RMS (it appears to be leaking) would come to $2051.44 + tax (plus the cost of the flex plate bolts - he wasn't able to get a price on those from Porsche today). From what I am seeing the price looks fair but not a smoking deal - what do you guys think? He said they had done "dozens of the IMS retrofits" and he had the special tools from LNE. The shop has a perfect rating from the BBB. This isn't a crisis. The car has less than 40K mikes and is a 2002. The service records with the car (not many) show that it has only had 3000 miles put on it since 2006. I knew when I bought the car that this seemed to make it a candidate for the IMSB issue and negotaited the price accordingly so not a major crisis but kind of a bummer. Does the price seem reasonable? Anything else I should be thinking of? Thanks!

First off, tires are dry rotted? Not worth the risk to continue driving on them. PO only put 3000 in over 6 years? I would bet that the oil didn't get changed frequently and the car sat with old oil for long periods. IMSR, RMS, clutch inspection, and associated items should run in that price range, maybe throw in AOS inspection, R&R, inspect coil packs. , plugs, maybe get some other work done, like intake / or exhaust. Fuel filter, check coolant lines, oil cooler, water pump, detail under the car,etc. Pay as you go. Good luck Ted.

RUF did my IMS, RMS for $1500. If you need a clutch get that done at the same time because the labor is the same for both. I assume you did not get a PPI before buying this car?

not sure on prices, but feel one should set aside $ for ims/rms/clutch no mater what.

Thanks. It's a TIP so no clutch to worry about. No PPI, but I did do a pretty thorough inspection before buying. Not sure how a PPI would have caught this, other than the small leak in the RMS area. I knew it was a risk and budgeted for it.

What exactly did the metal in the filter look like? Some specs(small) of metal in the filter is OK if not normal. I'm surprised this guy didn't give you a better price on the oil change, after all he is really making his money on the upsell.

If you haven't, do some refresher reading here: http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html While it might not be a smoking deal, it is something you took into account when buying the car. The shop isn't in business to give you a "smoking" deal, and I am often more suspect than not of the "smoking deal" someone offers. Not sure what labor rates are near your or if there are other independents near you that could also do the work. Might be worth some price comparisons if that is of concern, no?

It's very possible the slight drip/leak from the motor and trans area will totally go away once the car is driven more frequently. I'd drive the car, enjoy it and maybe in 2k-3k miles unscrew the filter housing, remove and cut open the filter. Compare it to what you recently saw. If it's clean with no metal, install a new filter and if the oil's fairly clean looking, leave it in, top it up keep driving for another 2K-3K miles before your next change.

The filter wasn't packed with particles, but there were shiney silver particles in there. Not sure I have have the stomach for the stress of just driving it and waiting to see if I am going to lunch the motor. I can afford the IMS fix, can't afford a new motor....

I think that price is OK. Same as quoted by my Indy here. His labor rate is $140 / hr. As I understand it the Tip is more time to remove/install so you have more labor that the 6 speed stick.

I think my Indy charges $1600 and has done quite a few

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Winner. Someone is paying attention.

Fair price as Others noted. Spot on with what I paid in December. That's an engine out job with the tippy. Have him do the AOS while at it. That's a tough job with the engine and tranny in.

Seems fair to me. My indy quoted about a grand on top of the ~$1,600 for the clutch and RMS. I have a 6 speed, not TIP.

If you were planning on doing it anyway at some point, since there is an indication of a possible problem why would you not just have it taken care of now? Second point on cost; do you want the cheapest guy working on your car or someone who knows what they are doing and has done several. I paid the local pcar dealer to do my IMS upgrade so I know I didn't get a smoken deal. What I did get was a great job and no problems and that is worth more than a couple hundred dollars saved.

If those metal fragments were ferrous,don't drive that car!!!!!!!!!!

It is normal to have a few metal flakes in your oil filter. I monitored my oil filter for 20K miles before the retrofit and it always had bits of chain guides and small pieces of metal. People here are jumping to conclusions without pictures. OP, Did you take a cell phone pic that you can post so you are not ead down the direction of worst case scenario? Everyone is trying to be helpful here and giving you the safest advice.

i would just go ahead and get it replaced. I was "lucky" enough to need a new clutch shortly after I bought my car and it sure felt good to have it done

when i purchased my 996 i had the oil filter AND oil drained to check for metal particulants or coolant....the coolant was checked for any signs of oil....after your filter is cut open, here is what your oil filter should look like...totally clean...if there are any metal shavings or metal particles something is being worn:

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I'm sure macster will chime in but follow this ^ advice. There are only certain areas of the engine that can give off ferrous (sticks to a magnet) particles. Any ferrous metal and that is not a good sign. That price for the IMS replacement is a solid deal, especially for a tip. You can ask 30 folks on this board and get 30 different answers but a new LN single row installed by my indy (with all new flywheel bolts etc etc) is $2400. And that is for a 6speed. It's a damn sahme that this car was abused before it was used. 3,000 in 4 years and wearing dry rot tires? sad. You can bring her back though!

where in ohio are you, what shop is this?

Sounds about right. I was just quoted the same for mine. BTW a PPI would catch that, on my PPI I specifically requested to have the oil filter removed and cut open for inspection as well as over rev counts. That is why you should always take a PPI seriously. Anyway water under the bridge for you. Go get the IMS/RMS done!

Thanks everyone - the advice and the pictures were very helpful. Wish I had thought to take pictures of the filter - didn't occur to me at the time. I just wanted to make sure I was thinking straight and not overlooking something, and to confirm the price was reasonable. I figured it was, but always like to check when possible. The tires shipped today so this should all be over fairly soon. Thanks again, Ted

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$2400 for IMS is a ripoff!...anyone paying more than $1500 is getting scammed..you know what they say about more money than brains. my indy charges $1500 with tax and he is one of the most respected shops in seattle...7hrs labor and bolts/bearing cost is $650.

G-zilla.....this is a tip car. The engine has to come out. This is a fair price. You are correct however for a 6 speed.

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i was referring to this post...he has a 6 speed and paid $2400 at indy mechanic...they must serve a hell of a wine, a nice aged cheese and have lots of cute hookers in the back room while waiting for you and your car to be finished.

Gotcha! Sorry about that.

not sure if i'll be able to stay away from this forum ...the 996 is a great car for the $ and those of us that either don't want to sell our older beloved porsches or have kids in college just don't have the extra bucks to go up a level to turbo or 997. i pick up my 82 911sc in about an hour!...also the buyer of my 996 wired the $$ into my account last night (problem cashiers check)so life is good and long live my 356!!

Please post up some commentary on the new car. I for one will look forward to it.

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A running engine does not wear? Damn, what oil are you using and where can I buy some? Again, finding a small amount of metal flecks, that can be seen while holding the cut oil filter at certain angles, is not uncommon for a auto. engine. If, on the other hand, the amount of metal is excessive and it is ferrous then that could certainly be a cause for concern. All of this is pure speculation without the aid of pictures and the knowledge of whether or not the metal is ferrous. The amount of fear mongering here by people who do not know the facts is stunning. I guess all of that guerilla marking here and elsewhere has really paid off and apparently there is no need for it�s continuation as the boards have been fairly quiet with few new carnage threads.

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....i've just read what other experts have stated. finding metal shavings or metal particals (larger than microscopic sized) in your oil is not a good thing. period. why don't you be a little more positive instead of throwing insults around. i guess you also agree that $2400 is the right price to pay for an IMS replacement?

I was told about IMS problems with the 996 when I had my car checked out before I bought it. I decided to wait until I needed a clutch. My '02 now has 109k and the clutch just started to slip last Friday. It's in the shop right now getting a clutch, IMS bearing and RMS. $2500. Not having the agita of the dread IMS failure while I'm trying to enjoy my Porsche...priceless. Good luck. Mark

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Where did I insult you? You need to get a little tougher. Justify your $$$$ spent on replacing your IM$ however you want, obviously I disagree.

i admit...i was being a wuss...i'm tougher now heres my new to me 911sc...just drove home...its the car wayne dempsey(pelican parts)used for his 101 porsche projects book...132K miles on chasis, 30K on total top to bottom rebuild which was featured in the book as well as lots of other replacement parts/projects. lots of upgrades on suspension/shocks and SSi's/stainless dansk muffler make it sound and handle great. car came from factory with cloth inserts which i've never seen on a non-european sc....will get better photos next week when the H4's are installed and i've painted the trim rings...(oil drips from my 94 isuzu trooper)

groovzilla that is awesome! I've always wanted an aircooled 911 but I have fallen completely in love with my 996 C4S and unless it burns to the ground it isn't going anywhere! Maybe when I have a bigger garage I'll be ready for a 2nd one.

you's be happy w/both early and late car...nothing like the feel of the early car/nothing like the smooth preformance of the later model!

Update - I stop in to check on my car today and see what it looks like with engine out. Engine is still in the car, and he said he decided not to drop it due to rusty bolts, connectors, etc. Will drop the transmission and replace the IMSB and RMS while the engine is still in the car. I was kind of suprised as I didn't know you could do this with the engine in the car. Said it will take longer this way but still should be done Wednesday. New tires (Conti DWS) are installed and it has a fresh alignment. Anxious to get it back.....

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Wow. Good luck with this car. I wish you the best!

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Good news, what shop are you using?

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I dropped the engine with the tranny in the car to save time and money on my overhaul. You can do either.

If I had found metal shards in my filter I would have the shop drop the pan and flush everything before running with the LN bearing. From what Charles said in another post, the one issue with an open bearing is the possibility of metal bits getting inside. He theorized it may have been a possible explanation for the some of the LN-bearing failures they've had so far...folks installing the bearing in cars where the OEM bearing had already started to break down (metallic, not just the seal).

oldsmobile Bravada...anyone ever heard of that??? i'd change the oil just less that 5k for a decade & there were enough metal flakes on the plug to build a match box car. i sold her @ 165k. i had an old 74 "safari lookin" LAND CRUSIER, that just kept on going. bought it w 140k & sold it just under 200k, the oil was always coal black & silver shinny flakes abound. at 3500 miles on my harley & at 20,000 on my harley, when u change the primary fluid, the drian plug has enough metal on it to fill a 30 cal. everyone's experience is different. i'm not payin $2500 every time i change the oil. and in Seattle, a beautiful place for everything outside a human being can do 5 to 6 months a year, u can buy a home under 100K. there is no such thing where i live. u say porsche in southern cali and ur an idiot and everybody else is an expert and oil cost the same as blood, actually more. sometimes i think the name of this forum should be "fear factor". i'm not excluding myself, i'm right in there w the rest of those thinkin ''OMG should i drive in the rain?" the point of the tread, we should have paid the $175 for the oil change & go back in 1 or 2k & doit again. but like me, u paid the $2500 by time all is said & done, for the peace of mind, to prevent the blah blah blah, & blah blah..and the funny part, is when u change ur oil again, in 3500 miles, what r u gona fix when those same little silver flakes are in the oil filter? i think i'm going to go for the heated seats.....

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I'm sorry, but I've got to side with groov on this one! the indy DAMN SURE ain't doin' you No Favors!

I wasn't going to respond because I don't care what these folks think (especially groovzilla, who owned his car for all of 5 minutes). Truth is that that guy who developed the bearing stated that parts and labor would be roughly $3500-$4000 for the IMS bearing replacement Read Jakes Raby's post: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...placement.html If you took your car to a reputable shop that is starving for business then maybe $1500 for parts & labor makes sense. Did they drop the sump cover and look for debris? Of course they didn't. Slap and strap is most likely their motto. I do almost all of my own work but the IMS bearing replacement was outside my zone. 3 different places in my gave me similar prices and I chose to go with the most reputable shop in the area where the shop (the size of a small airplace hanger) is filled with either customer Porsches for daily driving, customer porsches for racing, or the Porsches that the master mechanics in the shop race on weekends.

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i actually owned my 996 for 129,600 minutes(3 months)but that has no bearing(pardon the pun)on what my observations are regarding the IMS bearing cost. i've owned almost every model porsche some for years (my 356 for 18 years and still counting the minutes)and the 996 just happened to be for a few months because my entire plan was to upgrade to a lower mileage 996 OR look for a turbo. it is all documented in my posts and threads if you care to do some homework. since you slammed me for my short ownership i thought you may want to do your research before opening your mouth with such a ridiculous statement. my 3 month old 996 is damn well sorted. my mechanic AKERS porsche has been in the business for 50 years and is well respected. i trust him for his suggestions/opinions on the matter. i follow his guide when i purchase a model i'm not familiar with and i do my research. that said, the IMS debate has taken so many twists and turns it is tiring. i had an excellent well known reputable shop AKERS install a new clutch, new flywheel, IMS upgrade and RMS for $3K. that included oil analysis, filter inspection and coolant inspection. sounds like your airplane hanger shop has a big monthly rental payment. this is the only reason i can see for a $3500-$4000 IMS replacement unless of course LN engineering is making a solid gold version? one thing i can say, paying $3500-$4000 for an IMS bearing upgrade is having waaay too much money than brains.

This thread is getting ridiculous. I don't think anyone can take a pricing stance this strong unless you can find the same solution for him locally.

i agree its getting ridiculous but someone making a claim that the IMS bearing is a $3500-$4000 job?

Well, unless you can find OP a better price at a reputable shop locally, then it is what it is.

guess so

This is the going price in Mass:

This is the point I am making. Similar cars sell for different prices around the country so why wouldn't repair costs be any different. We are not buying Saturns.

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+111111111111111111 HAHAHA freakin AWESOME! What this guy said peeps! A bit flowing stream of consciousness perhaps but the question is asked ... What are you going to do when there is more metal in the filter at your next oil change? You run older hardware, you get metal bits in the oil filter. You believe a bunch of krap you read on the internets? I'm sorry for your loss. Really. IMS failure is BULL$HIT! There, I said it. It's just like Toyota sudden acceleration and bigfoot sightings. It's as real as you make it. If putting some aftermarket monkey part in your Porsche makes you happy then go for it but don't live in fear. It's just a car. And yes, much like you, it will someday die. And it WONT be due to "IMS failure". That's a fact (even if you did read it on the internets.)

The good thing about the IMS scare is that it's depressed the prices of the 996. I've seen some really amazing buys out there, and am seriously looking for the "right" car. I'm sure that I'll do the retrofit also, but I agree that the hype surrounding the failure is probably much larger than the actual danger. On another topic... $175 oil change??? WTF? Is no one else outraged at that?

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an hour of your time, a drain pan, 9 quarts of Mobil 1 on sale @ 5.49 per quart and an Hengst oil filter will get the job done for far less than $175. If you have the tools and the time, you can change the oil for under $60.

I'm sitting on the highest mountain peaks in the world overlooking the masses of people and their cars below us absorbing the knowledge to be found with my 996 beside me. Oh what's this! An invitation mailed to me from Porsche Hawaii with secret information passed on to me? Well maybe the hawaiian islands taking the highest mountain rating due to including the the length to the sea floor is pushing it. Anyway here's a scan of a recent invitation from Porsche. See if you can spot the oil info. Does this mean using Mobil 1 is wrong hehehe

Picked up the car today. Feels good to have it back. I had some other things done so the bill came up a bit but I expected that. Had 4 tires mounted and balanced, a 4 wheel alignment, found the drive shaft flex disc to be cracked so replaced that. Total bill was $2540 + tax. Hated to spend it but I tend to over think things and would have worried about the IMSB everytime I drove the car - now I can enjoy it. The Indy Shop was good to deal with. Let me come in and see what they were doing several times. Very patient with my questions. Good to deal with - showed me how several things worked on the car, etc. I will deal with him again. Ted

From what i have read do yourself a favor and do not use the car until you change the IMS. If the IMS bearing goes it will kill the motor period. I did mine recently and the cost was around 1500 bucks but i live in el paso texas and things are cheaper here than elsewhere.

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Still waiting on the name of the shop where your IMS was just changed?

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RUF did my IMS 4 months ago and it was $2,600. But I have a tip which requires more labor..

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