1999 996 C2 Metal shavings and metal sludge on drain plug and in filter

Hey guys So, had a possibly not so great day today when changing oil. When I pulled the oil drain plug it was filled with a metallic sludge and spikey metal shavings! I pulled the oil filter and cut it open. More shavings. Not great... the long shaving here was on the rag, and I used the rag to clean up oil at the bottom of the filter housing. Shaving are magnetic. Does this qualify as "normal?" Some history: I bought the car Jan of 2014. I have driven it just over 10,000 miles since then. Last oil change was 5,300 miles ago, I know, I was a little overdue on this one. Too much work and too much got to me. The car had IMS Bearing replaced with LN Engineering, Rear Main Seal and Cluch replaced at 95,672 miles at House Automotive in Pasadena. Noise: Every now and then I have this short squeak/whine coming from general engine area. -The sound varies in length and only comes when that car goes from a stop to moving. -Clutch is always involved when the sound comes. -Sound comes at very random times. The car can be hot, cold whatever. It's can go months between the sound appearing or it can come multiple times during a drive. It's a sound that has had me somewhat worried, trying to figure out what and where it's from. But now that I have all these shavings, I'm getting more worried... Using Mobile 1 0W40 oil in Los Angeles. Thoughts?

Particles look small, clean the crap off your mag plug & drag it thru your filter searching for iron based metal, if nothing sticks that's good. Stick your finger into hole where filter mounts to feel for any other metal etc. Remove sump plate & look there. If OK reassemble & search forum for what oil to switch to.

The larger piece, which is the width of a penny and it's magnetic. Maybe I'm getting worried without reason, I hope so. I just can't remember this magnetic spikey sludge last time i changed Oil...

I know House .When I had an engine issue I took the evidence to them. I left within a few minutes. Clueless at the front end. Some of the mechanics may be great. So in your case, I wonder if the engine passed the LN suggested pre-qualification check for IMSB replacement ? You need to separate the magnetic from the non-magnetic. Wash both in gasoline to remove the oil/grease. Dry the two heaps,spread out and photograph for Rennlist to observe+comment. Questionably ,you could fit an LN filter kit ,run fresh oil for a few miles and drain/inspect. If the debris is more than 100 grit size(if that means anything?) ,I have no clue how you could completely flush it all out of the small oilways. And there is still the question of the source of the debris + cause. Any noise from the chains ?

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Mine does that too when starting from a standstill. It doesn't happen when I push the clutch in, doesn't make sounds when it is in, and shifts just fine, and isn't slipping - so I'm not worried. Plus, it hasn't got worse in about 10k miles, so whatever, it can last until I replace the whole deal. A shop did inspect the clutch when I had the IMS replaced, they didn't notice anything. So I'm not too worried. The junk in your oil would make me worry a little, to a lot. I'd either have it checked out asap or change the filter every 500 miles to see if it's getting better or worse.

Pull the pan and see whats in there.

I had something similar to that happen. Had the IMSB changed when the car was running prefect adn they found it had started to fail. There were lots of metal shaving everywhere. This was the magnetic drain plug after the IMSB was changed, the pan cleaned and replaced, and the engine ran until warm with freash oil. After a few flushes the metal went away for a few thousand miles but then came back. I had the engine torn apart and cleaned and there was still a little amount of the metal shaving floating around. I hate to say this, but yours looks worse. The good news is the car is still running so hopefully you caught it early enough that it won't be hugely expensive to repair. That amount of metal warrants further investigation. Drop the pan. Do you have any history on the IMSB replacement? Was it starting to fail when they changed it?

As others posted, you would be wise to remove the sump cover and check further.

The pic of debris next to the penny sure looks like a piece of a wire-tie.

So some n00b was using wire tie to hold chains during assembly, left it there, wire tie gets smushed? How about "Candle wax. Car wax. Mustache wax? Could be anything. Guy's waxing his mustache at the beach. Gets sand in it. Wipes it off with a shoe. Shoe scuffs the counter." ??

You are losing a cam lobe, or lifter. I'll bet money on it. In the instances where I see this heavy automotive grey cast iron on drain plugs and in filters, worn valve train components are a common denominator. Timing chains will do this to some degree, but if they wear this far, you'll find chunks of rollers, too. Since you have a change in the sound with the clutch depressed, you may also be experiencing a failure of the crankshaft end thrust shims. These are also ferrous and can create this sort of wear debris in rare cases (mode of failure #13). Using M1, with its lack of boundary layer protection, and reduced ZDDP isn't helping anything, for sure. Good for you to use the mag drain plug, and pay attention to the engine! Now, don't start it again, and get it to a specialist. All you'll do by running it is decrease the chances of resurrection, and increase the cost of the repair. After all of this, you will have to clean and flush the engine incredibly to remove all the ferrous debris. At least it is ferrous, and you can employ magnets to assist in the efforts. Again, do not start this engine again. I cannot stress this enough.

Whether you are in the Flat6 camp or not follow the advice above. You just got $1000 diagnosis for free.

Further, with the sump removed, pull the swirl pots and look for the one that has the same sort of debris in it as what's on the drain plug. When you find it, that's the side of the engine that has the failing component. The scavenge pumps return their oil to the sump via these swirl pots, and they are vacuuming all the debris through them. There's your silver bullet for the day that will save you at least 3k of poking around.

Since I change the oil today this is my drain plug for comparison I assume thats normal. Every oil change I see some. And after joining rennlist and getting oil paranoid I have looked in the oil bucket after pouring all the old oil out and found that all my cars shed a lot of metal with each oil change. I did not know that and was freaked at first thinking all cars engines were going to explode. You should see the stuff that comes out of the oil from the excursion with 250,000 miles on it.

That one looks more normal. What are your drain intervals? That one looks like whats normal at an 8K service.

Even with several oil changes, I never saw this crap on my magnetic drain plug.

Drain interval was probably 5500 miles.

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What was the longest OCI you ever did? I'm gonna guess 300 miles.

Thanks Flat6, Last time I changed the oil I didn't see that sludge on there so I was surprised this time. You say "Since you have a change in the sound with the clutch depressed..." That's not how I would have put it. There's an occational sound that only comes when starting from a standstill, it's a short squeek/squeal. It's present when the clutch is let out as the car is moving forward and it is very very random. The large shavings might have been there since way back when. I discovered that there were more at the bottom of the oil filter housing. But not on the drain plug. I never cleaned the oil filter housing. As far as I know the PO changed the IMS bearing shortly after getting the car, probably as a precautionary. He never mentioned that it was starting to fail, nor does the work order and receipts indicate that. Also, regarding oil, is Mobile 1 not recommended for this car? Too many miles at this point? What brand and grade of oil do you recommend?

After living through that debris, I am sure the replacement IMS Bearing has been injured. If the debris wasn't like that at the last service, then this failure began during this service interval. If you act, you can save a ton of money now. That won't be the case later. As for oil, well I have nothing good to say about M1, so I'll say nothing at all. Moving forward you have bigger challenges ahead of you than oil selection.

Your evidence of metal shavings in the magnetic drain plug and in the oil filter paper demands further investigating, especially if they are magnetic particles. I would schedule two procedures next: Lift the car, drop the sump plate and look at the bottom of each cylinder with a borescope while each cylinder is moved to top dead center. This will rule out cylinder scoring but not piston deterioration, another source of metal debris generation. The squeal you are hearing when you engage the clutch is most likely the throw out bearing beginning to go. The clutch will engage normally during the initial part of this bearing failure and you notice it more when the engine is warm / hot. Good luck!

Just take the car to Carmax and be done with it! JK.....Better NOT!!!!!! Good luck with it, hopefully you can get it sorted out

Thats called a "Max Attack". Happens all the time.

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If you did oil changes and never cleaned the filter housing the trash you found in the filter could be just an accumulation of trash the filter housing picked up over the miles. This could explain the trash on the drain plug, too. If the IMSB was replaced by the previous owner this can result in a bit of an uptick in trash in the oil and filter as any time an engine is "disturbed" almost invariably more debris is produced. There is the question of the condition of the original IMSB too. If it was starting to fail this could have put some metal (ferrous) debris into the oil. Maybe. Are you sure the previous owner really had the IMSB replaced? The problem is the debris you found -- the stuff on the drain plug particularly -- could be the signs of something seriously going wrong. JR offers up a cam lobe or lifter and I can't argue with that. Both are made of ferrous metal and can as they go bad shed debris. Generally -- but unfortunately not always -- the engine can develop a distinct tick. In my experience with a flat cam lobe in one case the engine ticked in another case it did not. What you can do if you are so inclined is to do an oil/filter change. Clean the magnetic drain plug thoroughly along with the oil filter housing. I use the carb cleaner in an aerosol can. This dissolves oil and leaves no residue. Fill the engine with an approved oil and run it until the oil is up to temperature. Since the engine should be up to temperature when you drain the oil this should not take long. Remove the oil filter housing and dump the oil and filter element into a *clean* drain pan. Up to you if you want to go through the trouble of removing the magnetic drain plug. It helps if you have a spare non-magnetc one to use even if only temporarily to avoid having to drain the oil sump. If you spot an exceptional amount of new debris and a magnet dragged through the oil comes out with some ferrous particles on it, that can be a good sign something serious in going on. JR's educated guess of a cam lobe or lifter becomes even more likely. If the oil is free of debris then again clean the oil filter housing and I'd use a new filter -- I'm never a fan of reusing these even if they have only been used a short time -- and install the filter housing and the drain plug you intend to use and be sure everything is buttoned up. Top up the oil by the amount that came out when you removed the magnetic drain plug. (When you go to install the filter housing you fill this to the brim with fresh oil thus the amount of oil you lost when you removed this is replaced.) Drive the car. You can recheck for debris at any time you want. I'd err on the side of caution. A bit of work, granted. But either you do the above or you have the engine torn down some to check for any internal engine issues. For instance with the engine still in the car you can have the camshaft covers removed and the cam and lifters exposed and accessible for a full close inspection. 'course, it is up you. If you do not want to go through the run the engine some then check for debris or do not trust your ability to differentiate between what is possibly normal debris vs. what is possibly abnormal debris then you can just drive the car and hope for the best or have the engine opened up and areas that could be the source of the debris checked. The only real problem with M1 oil is in many cases it is not changed often enough based on the usage the car receives. Often a car is not used very often and as a result the owner believes he can let the oil go. This is really not a good idea because infrequent use, short trip usage, can really have the oil contaminated and its corrosion and lubricating performance severely compromised. There have been a number of cars/engines that have covered some big miles (100K+, 200K+, 400K+ and even 575K+) using M1 oil and have not manifested any symptoms of the oil being in any way inadequate. If low temperatures where you are are high enough -- above -25C - you can run a 5w-40 oil. There are a number -- 40 or more -- of these on Porsche's approved oils list. I have to add though if I lived in an area where the cold temperatures were while not -25C or colder but still quite cold, say below freezing, I'd run 0w-40 for the benefit of its cold flow characteristics in cold temperatures. If you live where the cold temps are not that cold and the hot temps hot you can even run a 5w-50 oil. There is at least one of these on the approved list. (Since it seldom gets even to freezing here where I live and drive and summer temperatures often break 100F I run 5w-50 in both my Porsches this after running 0w-40 for number of years with no issues. And I have 293K miles on one engine and 137K miles on the other. But and this is important I always replace the oil after 5K miles.) 'course, you will get different opinions regarding the above. Everyone that doesn't use an approved oil has his own ideas about what oil is best and of course, it is the oil he has for whatever reasons decided to use. If one decides to stray off the Porsche reservation, so to speak, and use an oil *not* approved by Porsche he can then select an oil based on any criteria he believes are indicative of a better oil. I can agree with JR that moving forward you have -- possibly have -- bigger issues than oil selection facing you. My advice is to not get distracted with all the discussion about oil selection/choices at this time and stick with an approved oil and one with the right multi-viscosity grade for the temperatures where you live and drive. Understanding the debris and what it means and where it is coming from is JOB ONE.

I will get some new oil, drain what I just put in, check for debris again and fill up with new oil. I'll replace the oil filter. I tried replacing it this time but the Mahle Filters I got from Peclican didn't fit. Same parts number as the ones from last time. And I will install the non magnetic drain plug and use the drain plug to check for and catch debris in the new drained oil. I have driven 60 miles since I changed oil. It was unavoidable. Checked the second half of the filter today. More debris on this end, which might be the bottom end? And also some small plastic bits. These COULD potentially be from before I bought the car, as I did not inspect the oil filter housing properly last time. But I did cut the filter last time and didn't see anything like this... Seems a lot of the debris is magnetic though. I've included a copy of the invoice from House for when they did the IMS replacement for the PO. Macster, seeing as you live in California as well, what are you running for oil? I'm down in Los Angeles. I know this is very heated topic for many, which is why I have chosen to stick with M1 as per porsche recommendation, and went with the same as the porsche service place recommended... Thanks guys

That probably cost a hundred bucks per mile... Best of luck.

I appreciate your experience and input on the tecnical side Flat6, but I don't care for comments like that. But this is the internet, so I could have just projected my mood onto it. If that "probably cost a hundred bucks per mile" I could potentially have already caused half a million dollars worth of damage... Also, your comment about not starting the car came after I drove it, fiy. And has not been driven since. And several other members here have said, drive it, check for more debris. That being said, appreciate everyone's time helping me figure out this thing and giving me advice and sharing experience. Thanks

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The oil service always stirs up more debris than anything that you can do. Remember, the smallest particles are what damage everything the most. The stuff that cannot be seen with the naked eye is the most damaging, as it suspends in the oil and travels everywhere. If the IMS bearing that was retrofitted fails, it would be expected. I learned a long time ago that I can lead a human to knowledge, but I can't make them think.

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FYI, Macster is in Livermore. That No Cal (kind of) East Bay near San Francisco

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Yes, just realized that. Have corrected post. California non the less. So, at least in my case, does not get cold. Rarely under 12C (55F)

Alright, pulled the "new" filter and checked. Found some more tiny ferrous debris in the oil and a couple of very thin flakes of what appears to be ferrous as well, but they're so thin they stick to anything, but they seem to be attracted to the magnet. So that's not great. I guess I'll have to let the car sit for at least a few days until I can get it into my garage to drop the pan to inspect. And maybe pull the cam covers. The seals there are due for a change anyways. Now, the question is, if it has bad camshaft(s) and or worse. Is this even worth fixing... Taking it to a shop to diagnose and repair will rack up thousands in parts and labor. Especially considering all the other things that should be done "while I'm in there." If the whole engine needs to be flushed and magnet applied to remove all this ferrous debris that might be stuff everywhere maybe a few more thousand. At that point, sadly, the car as-is is probably worth more in parts, with a re-sale in mind for the future... On top of that there's new shocks all around, bushings etc, motor mounts and a few other things I can't remember that are on the list to be done.

Really you have to decide how much the car is worth to you. Fixing the engine (or replacing it) is going to put you well into the red no matter what route you choose. It's just a question of how far. You can look at some of the recent rebuild threads for pics of where debris can get lodged. Flushing is not going to get it all and it will just be a question of time before it lets go and the engine is right back to where it is. I guess your options are: 1) get it torn down and rebuilt proper. 2) Run it until it pops, then move on to one of the next options. You may get 10 miles or you may get 10k, but you can just enjoy it in the meantime. 3) Sell it as is as a very nearly roller (or a roller after it pops). Please be clear to any buyer about what exactly they are getting, we don't need more "this $8500 Porsche is crap!" articles 4) Part it out if you have the space and time. 5) roll the dice on a used engine. 6) get a reman or built motor for it.

This is the Porsche world. The cars cost more than they are worth. So the only question you need to ask you need to figure out at the moment is "is this the one?"

Yeah, this is not The One , it's been a fun car. Had it for a year and a half and has been a very easy car until this. Anyone interested in it? $10K takes it as is. Take your chances and drive it away or tow it. That, or I part it out I guess... It was fun while it lasted.

OP, JR tried to nicely tell you to stop running the engine. Your causing more damage. I don't know WTF Macster was trying to tell you because he wrote you an essay that could have been three sentences. Stop running it! Inspect for damage. Decide on repair. Also, you will be lucky to get $6000 for a 99 C2 roller. You will not get $10,000.

Then part out it is, worth $10K in parts as is.

Honestly, you will come out with more money. Its a pain to part one out but I have done it then brought the picked over carcass to the scrap yard and actually came out great. Just start listing for parts and be prepared for lots of phone calls and emails. You will do even better if you remove some popular big ticket items and list on Ebay. Sounds like a great option for you! Good luck.

I have a local customer who parted his car out after a crash. He had just pulled the whole thing apart and freshened it up himself, after it had clogged secondary air ports due to his wife driving it like a grandma. I think he wants 5K for it, and its complete.

Hm, that could be interesting. PMed.