DE; what to modify next??

Hi Everyone, My first DE was 3 years ago, and from the first day i know i was completely addicted!! I have a beautiful 2001 996 C4, seal grey with full leather black interior with about 35k Miles. At my second DE event the engine had a catastrophic failure, with white smoke blowing over 100 feet up in the air.. That didn't stop my passion for sport, and paid $18k for a new engine installed, and 2 weeks later was at Watkins glen with a huge smile on my face. I have since bought a set of BBS wheels with Michelin Pilot Sport Cups (wow what a difference over street rubber. Had the car aligned with negative 1.25 camber all around, and installed Pagid yellows on all four brakes. Talk about a different driving experience, these small changes made a huge impact on the track. After another DE event the baffles in the stock mufflers were finished, and what a perfect excuse to install new fabspeed mufflers.. For anyone that feels their Porsches sound great with stock exhaust, " you havent heard nottin yet" The sound difference even makes you love your car more than ever... Now for the rub... I would really appreciate your advice and thoughts on the next logical and intelligent modifications? I do use the car as a summer daily driver. 1. Race seats with five point harness. that i will use only for DE events 2. Suspension upgrade, Bilstein PSS10, new antisway bars with drop and toe links. (open to other suspension brands besides bilstein) Ive heard and read mixed reviews about them. 3. All four rotors have spider cracks, and will need to be replaced shortly, should i go for the Performance Friction dimple 2 piece rotors, or just keep buying the OE or Zimmermann cheaper rotors, as the wear pretty fast with the Pagid pads. My next event is on Monday and Tuesday at WGI, and I go sleep dreaming about the best lines around the track... Any comments and thoughts will be most appreciated? Thanks for your time

what is your current suspension? (if US standard, get rid of it) - if ROW M030 or better, get the seats, stick with stock breaks for now - my .02 Welcome and post some pics of the car or face the wrath of comments to follow btw why would you change seats just for DE... I have fairly aggessive seats and drive my car to work over 50% of the time - I love the seats and can no longer stand to sit in the stock seats, even just for a short trip

Me personally, the best thing I ever did for the track and autocross was to get Euro GT3 seats and harnesses. Being held in the seat instead of sliding around on top of it makes it so much easier to sense the car and control it. BTW, get 6 point harnesses, your ***** will thank you.

Always do safety first

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From personal experience (and many will attest) trying to make a street car go fast on the track is very expensive. With the first few upgrades you get a decent return on your money (in terms of lap times), but after that, you are chasing tenths of a second per thousand dollars. Since you are already running R-compound tires, the next logical upgrade in terms of performance is suspension. Getting a one-way adjustable setup (like PSS9/10) will be sufficient for a street going car. Here is a list of things, which are close to the order you will probably get them PSS9/10 GT3 sway bars (HR work also) Adjustable drop links (you will want tarret modified perch if you use GT3 front sway) X51 Oil pan GT3 lower control arms - front (more camber) Aggressive brakes pads (RS19/29 are good, but Pagid and PFC make more aggressive pads) Motul 660 or Castrol SRF Slotted rotors - PFC are the only ones that fit, and work great GT3 brake ducts GT3 brake liners SS brake lines Rear toe links 3rd radiator - cooling LWFW - revving Underdrive pulley - when you start boiling your power steering fluid, it's time Somewhere in there you will get a data logger, in car camera setup, and another set (or two) of wheels. Don't forget a more aggressive alignment at some point. And then you will can start chasing expensive upgrades for minimal gains. Also, you should not put performance upgrades and safety in the same category. You need proper seats, roll over protection, harnesses, HANS, and fire protection (suit, extinguisher). If you have to pick what to get first, go safety first. With all that being said, and knowing what I know, I seriously recommend you consider getting a dedicated track car. A spec Boxster, E-class racer, or even spec miata can be had for about the same cost as upgrading and maintaining a street car. If you can afford it, a GT3 is a great tool as well. The 996 GT3 has come down in price in the last year or so, and there are great deals to be had. If you could only pick one performance upgrade, a new suspension will be your best bet. But don't skimp on safety! -td

After safety I'd pick a driving coach. $0.02

You need to tell us how much track driving and how much street driving you'll plan to do. If it's a modest amount of the former and a lot of the latter, then I would do the PSS10s, harnesses/harness bar, modify your seats, and a rear sway bar. If it's a good amount of track and occasional street use (where I am) then get bars at both ends and definitely get a stiffer coilover than the Bilsteins, with camber plates. I have JICs, but you can spend a lot more money than that. If you don't need the backseat then get a roll bar, and get proper seats (GT3). X51 oil pan, third radiator, data logger. If it's more than that follow himself's order, but get something harder core than Bilsteins. Just bear in mind that this is where the bang-for-buck starts to get real thin.

+1 on what himself said.... suspension, suspension.... and even more suspension.... and seat time is everything. for daily driving.... pss10, H&R ARB (for c4) for starters. Seats with harness/bar is not easily removed even on an annual basis.... it gets old.

Start with safety and remember that you need harness bar with those seats as well. Get the OEM rotors, zimmermans crack and fail all the time with track use. Have seen several not even last past one weekend of use. Seat time is the best go-fast part with good coaching. For the suspension there is good advice here but remember the more intense you go (remote motons or JICs for example) the less you will like your street experience. Whatever works for YOU will be your answer. Slope is quite slippery but man the water at the bottom is fiiiiiiine

I believe you need to learn to drive the car stock first with street tires. DE is not about doing faster laps then others. It about getting to know your car and driving it within its limits. Even stock these cars have higher limits then most of us can even attain. Learning on a track oriented car allows you to go faster right away and then cover up the mistakes because the tires have more grip. Your bypassing an important step to learn control even though it is at slower speeds and longer lap times. Sure the car is faster with the modifications and you can get better laps time because its even easier to drive at your limit. That doesn't make you a better driver. It just means you have the advantage of a car that has higher limits.

Thanks so much for great feeback!! You all raise some good food for thought, and also the laws of diminishing return come into play after the high gain modifications are done, as mentioned by Himself. Some more details to some of your questions. 60% street and 40% track, Im running in either Black or Blue run groups depending on which PCA club[IMG] The car has a stock US Suspension, high with lots of roll.. Its seems the majority agree with suspension and race seats with harness and belts as the logical next step. I do admit that i find myself holding on to the sterring wheel a little to tightly so i stay in my seat, especially after i installed the Rcompounds. I did hear anyone mention flashing the ecu to re-map the engine. The modifications: 1. R Compound Tires (MPSC) 2. Padig Yellow pags all around 3. Fabspeed exhaust 4. negavitve camber is US stock suspension Thanks very much again..

Jumper5836 you bring up some good points,and agree with you.. First order of business is learning to drive on track, and then learning the car. A good story i share with friends; when i started i couldnt beleive how hard it was to be smooth, and how fast i was going, only to tell them the following year i was driving even faster on a very wet track in the rain.. Driving on a wet track helps you really understand the limits of your car at a slower speed, and how it will let go and slide.. These P-cars are much better than most drivers for the first number of events, which could be years depending how quickly you can learn.. I spent 2 years doing DE events with the car completely stock before switiching to R-compound tires and Padig pads.. Plus a motor... All that being said, as your skills improve you can really appreciate the modifications to the car, and you feel the difference at higher speeds..

how many track events have you done? The car is waaaaaaay more capable in stock form so I'd upgrade the driver first. When you reach the absolute limit of the car in stock form, then I'd start changing things, one at a time (brakes first, then tires, then suspension, then etc, etc). I'm not a fan of installing any sort of harness without a roll bar/cage of some sort and DEFINITELY no fixed back seats.

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Cool, I would suggest though now learn to car with the R-compounds and then start with the suspension next season or when your used to the new tires and the new capabilities.

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1. (Safety First) Go with Seats Harness (6point) HANS Device . Either a Bolt in Roll Bar.. Or Harness Bar. 2. Then PSS10's. Good set-up for street/DE usage. 3. Coach... FYI. Others said it but use OEM Rotors over Zimmermann. OEM holes are Cast into the rotor as opposed to the drilled Zimmerman. Result is you may get spider cracking which is OK on OEM so long as the crack(s) do not go from hole to hole. Zimmermans are not good rotors for track use. This set-up should still allow a streetable car and a great DE tool.

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I would do those items in this order: 1, 3, 2. Do GT3 seats first (I think they're just fine for a daily driver) and a harness bar and harnesses. Not only is it a safety thing, but your car control abilities will go up since you no longer need to "hold" yourself in the seat by bracing your knees and elbows against the door/center console. Then, upgrade to good brake pads. If you like, you can do fancier rotors, too - they might last longer between replacements, but they'll also cost more money. What we want to achieve with a track brake setup is a setup where you'll never experience brake fade, the grip will be strong and the modulation will be excellent. And, after you've done those 2 things, then I'd focus on the suspension. I have the X74 and think it's really good. I've also heard good things about the PSS10. The addition of GT3 adjustable sway bars to either one is probably also good. All the rest is just seat time. Drive in the rain. Drive in the dry. Try new tracks. Get more instruction.

Do you use the back seat? Then race seats/ GT3 seats will render that useless. Swapping seats for the few events/year becomes a real PITA as well. A rollbar/harness bar doesn't help either. How many total track days have you done? Going to R comps, without an aggressive alignment, you will begin to chew up the outside shoulders. You will want to find more negative camber to preserve your tires. Safety is a slippery slope.. Once race seats and harnesses go in, the arguement for a rollbar/cage comes into play. That becomes big money. The counter argument is, is it safe to drive such a car, particularly with a cage, on the street?

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+1 on Van's advice: 1) Safety: seats & bolt-in roll bar (or harness bar if you'll need to remove it between events), HANS device, fire suit, etc, then 2) X74 suspension package & GT3 (street) front lower control arms, then 3) better Pagid pads (RS14 is my fave), 4) X51 oil pan. Then stop! Do much more and you'll kill your street-usability entirely.

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I would do suspension before R-comps.

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LOL. Way to read the thread! Post #1: lol Probably lack of coffee! -td

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I read it. 1 - Someone's going to look up this thread in the future 2 - That's the way I feel, and 3 - I think the OP should buy suspension. I drink plenty of coffee.

Thanks for all your input, and thoughtful recomendations to my post... I have had many conversations with my indy mechanic regarding the actual costs and perceived benefits and advantages of each upgrade. He did mention one extra addon item that has'nt been mentioned in this post, Install Mode camber plates at the same time as the PSS10's minimum in the front, since the OE rubber suspenion mounts are probably shot, and dont give you the same turn in and steering response. If the goal is to maintain a balance between a car that performs well on and off the track, and also retain some value and appeal in re-selling the car. Usually the more a car is modified for track, you reduce the amount of potential buyers, and hinder the price you will get. I'm not selling now, but my bucketlist includes a move up to a GT3 . Thanks again to all of you.. PS, i love the headlights on my 996

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Yup, good suggestion (sperical upper strut mount/aka camber plate), but only if you're really pushing hard on the track. The spherical bearings on the camber plates will wear out after 5-10,000 miles of normal driving on the street. It's an added cost and hassle, and like everything else, it's a trade off. The bearings themselves are $40 or so each, maybe 2 hours shop time to remove them and press in new bearings. Then you'd need to realign the car also. Figure that is a $500 bill every 10,000 miles. Many people do well with the rubber upper mounts. I was running 265/315 Michelins and driving in the instructor group and the rubber would rip out after a couple of events (and then it starts rattling), so they didn't work so well for me. With smaller tires or driving slower, they would last longer.

For 60% street use, I would avoid all-metal upper strut mounts. Too crashy/loud for my taste with the bad roads we have around here. If you go X74 instead of PSS10, the X74 come pre-asembled with fresh upper mounts, matching bumpstops, etc. It's all plug-and-play. Disadvantages of X74 are that they're not threaded so you can't really corner-balance the car, and you'll need to combine them with GT3 front lower control arms to get enough negative camber. But as far as a ride/handling compormise for your usage pattern, X74 would be great. And as a side benefit, since the shocks aren't adjustable, you'll always know they're perfectly matched to the springs! :-)

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I disagree -- the all-metal (spherical) upper strut mounts are not crashy/loud for the street as long as you don't have your struts set to ultra stiff. IMHO the PSS9/10 suspension rides BETTER on the street with the spherical upper mounts than the stock suspension does. The stock suspension is CRAP. The PSS9/10 suspension handles the oscillations much better (it's a much better damper). I don't understand changing the struts if you can't adjust the ride height/corner balance. Also, the PSS suspension has valving that is perfectly matched to the springs, on all settings, which is sort of the point of the thing. You need to adjust them for conditions not for the spring rate.

The indy actually said he would not install the Bilsteins if i didnt do the upper mounts at the same time, as he felt it was onlt half the solution, although said he would accept leaving the OE rear mounts. I had serious concerns of going with solid mounts, especially with the crappy roads we have, and the sound of metal on metal makes me feel like my filings in my teeth will fall out before getting home. John, I had done some research into the X-73 suspension, and looked like a good option until it came time to understanding the shocks and sway bars as separate components, and how sway bars can mask the performance of the shocks in locking each side together. There was also the question of corner balancing, and adjustability. Ride height on my 996 drives me a little crazy, as i find the car way too high especially in the front, and the PSS help remedy that issue. Although i'm still concerned about metal suspension mounts, it seems counter-intuative. My indy hasnt steered me wrong yet, and will take the leap of faith.

Hopefully your mechanic knows who pays him, otherwise you probably need a different one. Everything is a compromise, it's your compromise. Ask him to guarantee that the spherical bearings won't fail in 10,000 miles. Whether you use camber plates or the stock mounts, either one will have durability issues -- sphericals fail on the street, the rubber stock mount will fail on the track (eventually). Again unless you are a really fast driver in the fastest groups, you'll probably be fine with the rubber mounts until you get that fast I'm not sure your point about the shocks and sway bars working differently on the X-73 suspension. All components in any suspension need to be sized appropriately to work together. That isn't different from one package to another.

Darren, You were absolutely correct about the limited lifespan of the spherical bearings, and my Indy confirmed that they will need to be replaced periodically depending on use and wear, and had no willingness to guarentee these bearings. Since i use the car on the street and track either stock mounts or camber plates will fail eventually, but the rubber will be more comfortable and quiet until i get faster on the track. I am running either Blue or Black run groups depending on the PCA region. My last event was at WGI October 12-13th in Black with NiagaraPCA. From the clolr of the leaves in your picture it looks like you were there at the same time. Thanks again for your advice.

Darren - agreed that the stock suspension sucks. When I changed mine to new X74 parts it was a massive improvement. Rob - I was upfront about the limitations of the X74/X73 kits. They are not anywhere near as adjustable as a threaded-body coilover setup, obviously. I chose X74 in part because I wanted a factory-approved suspension rather than aftermarket. I've done aftermarket coil-overs before (not PSS9/10 stuff, but anyway I wanted a set-it-and-forget it suspension this time). But let me just add one more thing: if you hate the high stock ride height, rest assured that X74 is plenty low enough. I'm at 25.5 inches from floor to top center of wheel arch, F&R. So that single criteria probably shouldn't factor into your choice between the two alternatives. Both will get you low enough. Other factors already mentioned by others are more important. Good luck.

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IDK. While I won't argue the fact that the bearings will wear out over time, the OEM GT3 mouts are on all street driven GT3's, many having much more than 10k miles and you never hear complaints about them wearing out or making noise. Never had an issue with noise with the GT3 monoballs on my 996 but they didn't have that many miles on them. I've had a set of ground control Monoball camber plates on my M3 for about 17K miles with no sounds from them. I think the quality of the bearing and build quality of the plate can have a big effect here. I had Schnell camber plates on my 996 and they started to make noises after 100 miles and I got pissed and took them off. Andy p.s. I've got a set of GT3 monoballs sitting in my basement if anyone is interested.

Oh, agreed. Maybe a great option is to find a complete GT3 suspension that someone has taken off to upgrade to something more racing oriented. The stock GT3 spring rates are almost identical to the PSS9/10 spring rates. My experience with this is specifically on my 996 and also my friends' 996's with aftermarket camber plates.

GT3 seats, harness or roll bar, and HANS first. X51 Oil Pan Coaching Suspension In that order in my opinion. Put your money first on what will make you fast rather than what will make your car fast. I've knocked probably 10 seconds off my lap times through DE's and private coaching without doing a thing to the engine. At the time you get to the suspension you may be reaching a point where the car will no longer be all that great on the street, and you may not care about that so much. I wouldn't spend a penny on making horsepower. I would keep buying either stock rotors or DBA solids. Alternatively, get yourself a dedicated track car right now. You'll save yourself a lot of money in the long run!

Great advice! A lot of this is driven by personal goals, and they are different for everyone doing DE events. When I instruct I try to assess the student's goals -- my first goal is to keep them safe, second is to help them have fun by accomplishing their goals. Some people want to be real technical and learn as much as they can. Others like driving their cars and hanging out. There is not a one-size-fits-all attitude to have at DE. I like modifying cars, changing things, always have. When I was a DE student it would screw up my driving because things always changed, not the best way to learn! But that was my enjoyment, that's what I wanted to do. Finally when I decided I wanted to be a better driver I bought an Acura, and it took years of racing that before I felt I was ready to race my 996. So to the Original Poster -- what are your DE goals?

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That's an essential question that we all (except Darren) forgot to ask.

My ultimate goal is becoming a PCA national instructor! I understand and appreciate the amount i need to learn before that will happen, and want to learn the most I can with the car i curently own. The car was bone stock for the first years of DE, and only made modifications in my third season(2009) with a 2nd set of wheels with MPSC and pagid pads (yellow). I wanted to learn and understand the driving dynamics of the car in stock mode, as the 996 is way more capable than i am, and also didnt want to mask some of my mistakes with modifcations. Learning to be smooth and use of vison is always top of mind. (its like golfers buying new clubs because they believe it will imprve their game, instead of taking lessons to improve their skills). For the spring I will be installing the PSS10's with Mode suspension mounts, with some fresh tires since the MPSC's are pretty much toasted all around. The fronts outside edge are completely worn from not having enough negative camber, and the rears for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who particiapted in this post, and wishing you a happy holidays and a great 2010 driving season.

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If you're going to go this route, skip the PSS10s. Get a better suspension, with camber plates. As I said, I use JICs, but there are plenty of options. The JICs are about the same price as the Bilsteins (once you add the suspension mounts), have stiffer springs, more range of adjustment, and come fully built. The PSS10s are fine for a street car (I had PSS9s), but just not stiff enough for the track. I know they're the default upgrade for this car (aside from X74), but I think it's highly likely that as soon as you put them in you'll realize they're not enough.