Buying '03-'04 996 C4S in Germany

I'm a New York guy currently living in Germany on a working assignment, and very much enjoying the Autobahn experience, running my Audi at 130 to 140 MPH on roadtrips. Having said that, I'm getting a complex from getting blown off the road by all types of 911's pushing 150+. Accoridngly, I've decided to start looking for an '03/'04 996 C4S, a car I can enjoy during all four seasons on both the Autobahn as well as the mountain roads of the Alps with my dignity intact. My question relates to mileage and the IMS issue. Reading the many threads on the topic, its suggested that IMS failures tended to hapen to cars that perhaps were underutilized/sat still too much. In that context, does anyone have a sense of what might be a good target annual mileage? In Germany, there are tons of 996's that ran 2k to 3k miles per year (20k to 30k total mileage) all the way up to cars burning 15k to 18k per year. I will certainly do a PPI in all cases to determine if any IMS/RMS remediation has been done, but want to set some parameters to tighten my search. Any thoughts on what a reasonable mileage range I should set as a target?

I look at IMS bearing replacement exactly as I look at oil changes, spark plug replacements. Just something you have to do periodically as part of maintenance. My indie told me that as far as he knows, there is nothing specific (frequent oil changes are very good insurance for many reasons) you can do other than check for any oil seepage around the bell housing (which could be either RMS or IMS).

Why not get a turbo? With a C4S, I'd imagine you'll still get blown away by various cars.

There's always somebody faster out there... I drove a 991 C4S on one of the unlimited speed sections of the Autobahn last fall at about 160 mph. There was a modified Audi keeping pace with me, and he eventually passed me. This didn't really concern me or make me feel undignified. I do agree with alpine's comments on the turbo. The 996 turbo is a bargain right now, and while it isn't without some known problems, the IMSB isn't one of them.

I am still not convinced that, as u say, under-utilized cars are more prone to IMS failure. I am more convinced that once out on the road, the cars that are babied are more prone. I never go below 3000RPM in my car, just to keep the oil pressure up. Also keep the oil fresh and topped up at all times, and i think the chances of that IMS letting go are gonna be slimmer. My car is eleven years old, and it's got just over 30k miles on it. It's parked away (without starting) for 5-6 months each year. I took my IMS bearing out, to replace it with LN, and found that it was almost intact. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...onym-used.html

Quotes source post: 12088877

Porsche considers average annual mileage for its sports cars to be in the 6K to 9K per year range. Now with the introduction of the Cayenne and the Panamera and the Macan annual mileage over its fleet of vehicles might go up some. So, if you believe that a vehicle that has been driven an average of 6K to 9K miles per year is preferable -- at least in the context of the ISMB -- to one that has been driven fewer miles per year then look for a car with annual mileage in the 6K to 9K range. Obviously, regardless of mileage, you want one that has been well cared for and has no stories. Given where you are and how you intend to use the car, I have to 2nd the advice to consider a Turbo. The 996 Turbo is a very good GT and brings with it considerably more power and torque. Just what the doctor ordered for the autobahn. You will still get passed as there is alway a faster car, but you will be able to get back up to speed quicker in the Turbo. Its acceleration at almost any speed is impressive. The Turbo brakes are very good and it too has AWD. The car won't be a Snow Cat in the snow but with proper snow tires and attention on your part it will do just fine. And the Turbo Mezger engine doesn't have the Achilles Heel that is the IMSB the NA engines have.

Guys, Thanks for the great feedback. Alpine 003 - Would love the Turbo, but I'm already paying taxes in Germany, taxes in the US, have 2 kids in US college, and one in the international school here in Frankfurt which costs about as much as out of state tuition at a NY State university.....so I have to make some trade offs. Nedster - Regarding my comments about low utility, it came from Porsche enthusiast who owns a 996, and was doing a lot of research with shops, clubs, etc to try to determine what the real failure rate was and what the failures had in common. I can't comment on the accuracy of his research, but his findings said that 97% of IMS bearing failure was in the 3.4l engines (evenly distributed between 996 and Boxters), most happened at relatively low mileage, some were possibly related to not following oil spec, over revving, etc.... I just found his approach interesting and conclusions compelling....but what do I know. Dennis C - You are absolutely right... there is always someone faster, particularly here in Germany, and sometimes the rocket is a surprise like a Skoda....... Either way, I love being able to drive like I'm getting somewhere, and the speed really forces me to sharpen my focus......my wife....not so much. Macster - Thanks for the guidance....much appreciated.

Turbo....Hmmm? Maybe if the kids skip a meal or two a week....need to do some more math...

Quotes source post: 12089896

Just stock up on some Mac N Cheese and Ramen noodle nights a couple times a week. Plus, aren't you still receiving some royalties from your the show you used to be on?

Quotes source post: 12089896

Dad let us kids forage food at the neighbors' houses so he could afford his bass fishing boat habit. J/K. Seriously though if your budget is tight -- and I don't need to know anything about your finances -- the Turbo may not be for you. The Turbo can be a rather expensive car to own and keep serviced and in good repair. (In early Jan. this year I spent $4600 to repalce 3 leaking radiators, then another $1000+ to have all 4 O2 sensors replaced. And that was just a downpayment compared to what I've spent out of pocket since the car came out of warranty back in June of 2011.)

Thanks Macster......appreciate the good humor and advice. Financial jokes aside, I came into this exercise with a specific set of criteria (including budget), so its really not about being able to afford more, its about staying within he parameters I set for myself. So while the idea of the Turbo, is really appealing, it falls a little outside the parameters I've established.... And knowing myself, once I start rationalizing breaking those parameters...well its a slippery slope. Alpine, haven't seen you dropping by Club Babaloo...whats up with that? Jokes aside....what I am struggling with a little is Carbrio vs. Coupe. My understanding is that Coupes are traditionally a little lighter and stiffer, translating into better road feel and performance, while the open top motoring of the Cab provides an entirely different experience. My concerns with the Cab are wind noise at autobahn speeds (with the top up) and leaks. I get its probably very much a matter of personal preference, but welcome any advice.

I don't think that cabriolet roof leaks are a known issue with these cars. At highway speed, they really aren't much louder than a coupe with the top up. With the top down, the wind deflector in place and the windows up, it's still very manageable at highway speed. The C4S cabriolet is fairly rare and it is really nice looking.

Quotes source post: 12091961

This is true in the US, not sure in Germany but if it is, this is something you may want to consider for either higher and/or faster resale when it comes time to sell later down the line as I'm assuming you're not gonna be over there permanently. Now if I was over there, I'd pick a car you can't get here. RS200, mk1 gt3, Lancia Integrale Revolution, etc... Good luck in your search either way.

Quotes source post: 12092013

Good point. In the US, I believe the C4S cabriolet was only sold as a 2004 model (perhaps 2005 also). In Europe it may be available in a wider range of model years, probably starting in 2003.

Out of curiosity, did they not have the C4S in Germany in '02? Or is there some difference in the later cars that I'm not aware of. I only ask as an owner of an '02 C4S, and I see you said '03 or '04.

The C4S launched as a coupe and the cabriolet was introduced a few years later. The 2002 and 2003 models in the US were only available as coupes. Typically (but not always), cars are available one model year earlier in Europe than they are in the US. My guess is that the C4S was available in Europe in 2001 and 2002 as a coupe. Again - I'm guessing about the European options. They may have sold things there that we never got here (like the 996 MK I GT3, for example).

I'm looking at the '03/04 because they bumped up the displacement/HP to 3.6 liters/320 HP, though some of the things I've read say that the shorter stroke of the 3.4 make it a more responsive engine. Some of those same voices also suggested that the 3.6 is less prone to IMS bearing failure... but I really don't know. More to the point, the C4S has an incredible bulging back end, which with the air vents low on the rear quarter looks extremely aggressive. Love it! Alpine...yes, lots of interesting choices here, including the Renault Alpine (pardon the pun), but I really want a Porsche, and it gives me the possibility of actually bringing it back to the US at some point (with DOT/EPA)...

Quotes source post: 12091551

It is not apples to apples, but with the top up my Boxster is a quieter car than my Turbo. The Boxster is more softly sprung, has 17" wheels/tires (vs the 18" on the Turbo) and the top fits/seals very well and is lined. I no longer care for the top down experience so it has been some time (years, maybe a decade) since I have driven the Boxster with the top down. I have not experienced a Cab but I do not recall coming upon any posts by owners that would cause me to believe the Cab was a noisy car -- talking top up now -- or the top was prone to leaks. 'course, you need to drive comparable examples of both body styles to get first hand experience. And you have to really decide if the top down experience is really that compelling to have you opt for the heavier, more complex Cab vs.the coupe. While on paper and on the road the coupe has it over the Cab the difference is imho not compelling by itself to select one car over another. The only real criterion to picking a Cab instead of a coupe is if one whats the top down driving experience and he resides/drives in a region that supports this style of driving and is OK with driving about with the top down. I would not give any real weight to the thinking that the Cab would hold its value and better than a coupe. In fact the Cab would likely depreciate more. What I hear at the dealers is the only person who truly values the Cab, who is willing pay extra for Cab, is the first owner. 2nd and subsequent owners not so much. I have heard about the confrontations Cab owners and the dealer have when the Cab owner comes to talk trade in and learns first hand how far in value a car he valued so dearly when new has fallen. Buy a Cab if that is the driving experience you want. Or buy a coupe if that is the way you roll. Regardless of which car you buy buy a good one. But keep in mind the Cab will almost certainly depreciate more than its coupe counterpart.

Quotes source post: 12092916

If you're gonna bring it back, I would lean towards the C4S cab even though I'm not a cab person myself(assuming you can find a good one for a good price over there). Or...get an older European model only Porsche(RUF CTR2 cough cough, Gemballa cough cough) that would time perfectly with your return. For example, if you plan on returning in 2 years, look for a 23yo model which would then be legal with the 25yr import law in the US(unless you plan on living in Cali). This way it would still be somewhat affordable(less demand from US) and since there's not a lot of guys already importing in now unlike the pre 1990 models.

Quotes source post: 12092916

You are a year off - the changes you listed above started in 2002.

Quotes source post: 12093002

I stand corrected...Thank you.

Quotes source post: 12092961

Thanks Macster, appreciate your time and insight. Truth be told, weather in Frankfurt is not exactly like Cali, the French or Italian rivieras. Summer is short, weather changes violently very quickly, and there are protracted periods of grey skies. Our first year here we had 47 days in a row of no sunshine...Wife almost split after that winter.....I'll test both and pick the best option available. Re resale, again, thanks.

Quotes source post: 12092961

I completely disagree with this when talking specifically about the C4S model, not to be confused with the C4 model.

Rainmn....They did have C4s in 2002... However, in Germany, cars are listed/sold by "year of first registration" not model year, so in my search, I was looking at 03/04, expecting to get some 2002 models first registered in 2003. If I search for 2002 cars, I could easily wind up with a 3.4 lt. 2001 that was first registered in 2002...

Quotes source post: 12112210

That's sort of correct. The two dates typically referred to are BJ (baujahr=year built) and EZ (erste zulassung = first registration). A good representation of the market (and searchable by region) is www.autoscout24.de . Good luck.

I thought the 3.4 motors had the least IMS failures because they were the double row bearings, is that wrong? I had a low mileage (18000) when I got it after 15 years, a 2000 with the 3.4 motor and a TIP. I had the IMSB replaced because thats my personality. The bearing turned out to be perfect. The car was never driven hard or often so I thought that it was an explosion waiting to happen. It did have 15 oil changes in 18000 miles, the PO was a stickler for maintenance, not so much actual driving. I still think when you get down to it the IMSB issue is just the luck of the draw.

Quotes source post: 12114691

Only 1999 and very few 2000 MY cars had the dual row. All other 3.4L cars were single row. I was under the same impression as OP that single row 3.4L cars had the highest failure rate, not that I care I just drive my car like I'll never drive it again every time I turn it on........ Which is several times a day.

Quotes source post: 12114573

Danke Mark I...Yes, I'm using Autoscout24.com and mobile.de to get a sense of the market availability, and leveraging the Porsche Owners Club Germany to identify shops endorsed by the organizations, as well as additional cars for sale. The due diligence will take a while, but the hunt is half the fun...

Quotes source post: 12114691

I claim no personal expertise, but have been doing a lot of research, and what I'm getting is that the 3.4liter engine is more prone to IMS Bearing failure than the 3.6., though double row 3.4liter is better than 3.4 single row. There seems to be a valid question about how weakness in the single row chain might be a contributing factor to bearing failure, though 3.6lt's are single row, generate more HP and have a longer stroke.....the other interesting bit that came out in a recent post is about harmonic imbalance at about 2800 RPM for the newer cars with Vario Cam Plus. The suggestion is at about 2800 RPMs the Vario Cam Plus changes the openings driven by the cams, and at that speed there an imbalance is created that might also be a contributing factor. Finally, I've also seen feedback that suggests underused cars are more prone to IMS failre as the seal arouond the bearing can break down and motor oil incursion contaimnates the grease in the bearing causing evenutal degradation of the bearings and failure....In short, countless hours of research have led me to conclude that it can happen to almost anyone, anywhere, regardless of mileage, driving style, displacement...etc. One normally covers this type of uncertainty with insurance, which in this case would be a thorough PPI coupled with an immediate investment in the LM retrofit....

Quotes source post: 12115320

Love my 04 C4s cab !! In 04 they came with a hard top !!

Quotes source post: 12115434

A very sweet ride. How is the road noise at highway speed...with soft top up compared to removable hard top...?

Quotes source post: 12115642

Really not much different , it has never been a problem , that being said I've only really done one real road trip (1500 miles to Florida and back) . Other than that I live on an Island so my normal rides are no more than a spin to Atlantic City and back (70 miles round trip) . What was impressive was driving to Florida around Florance, S.Carolina I put the cruise on at 90mph and stayed there all the way to Sarasota Fla, did not miss a beat!! When passing just touch the peddle and your at 120 in a blink !!! That's what it's all about ! Perfect touring car , think I'll do this again next fall after my restaurant closes for the season!

Quotes source post: 12092961

Cabs are worth more if you look at what's out there for sale. $27-35k for coups , $39-43 Cabs

Howdy folks....Have looked at a few interesting cars since my last post, but still searching for the right combination of quality (maintenance records and PPI), appearance and price.... Question...does the stock Turbo suspension package on a 996 C4S make it sit lower than a stock 996 C4 of the same year (say 2002)? I've read some conflicting data. On a related thought, is there anything different about the rear track with respect to capacity for wheel & tire size between the two? I understand the C4 came stock with 7x17 front and 9x17 rear wheels, but can it accommodate the 8x18 front & 11x18 rear? Is a change in offset/back spacing required to fit the wider wheel/tire combo? Or will it completely screw up the steering geometry? Please advise...

One more question.....does anyone have a view on whether K&N cold air intake kits cause problems for the 996? I've read in one of the "expert" books moving away from the stock airbox set up can create some undefined engine problems....I installed one in my XJR before I left the US, and it worked very well once the engine management system settled.

Due diligence will find you a great 996. The forum is filled with cases of very high milage engines with as new IMS bearings. The increase from 1% to 6-8% failures of the bearing begins with the 3.6 engines and the combination of the change in bearing design and the introduction of the highly oil dependent Variocam-Plus. This can lead to the question of which failed first, the chicken or the egg. But even at a generous 8% failure rate the odds are dramatically in your favor...especially if you make space in your budget for addressing all the deferred maintanence in the car you buy.

Quotes source post: 12140900

Thanks. Makes a lot of sense..... Speaking of oil, I've read in a few posts that upgrading to a deeper/high capacity oil pan can materially reduce oil starvation due to cornering. Given that oil is the life blood of the engine, anything that makes it more available and cooler should be good no? Any thoughts on installing a deeper oil pan as part of the initial work to make sure the machine is optimized?

Quotes source post: 12142309

To clarify....I don't intend to "track" the car, but do expect some spirited driving across the hills and dales of the German countryside, and its autobahns.