996 "Phoenix" - From IMS Failure to Rebirth

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Oh dear, I think i know where this story is going Best of luck!

Ugh! I dislike hearing stories like these. Expenses and frustration spiral out of control so fast!

Painful to read this, but this is what happens when people acquire expensive/complicated machinery and are totally reliant upon others to maintain it. I'm not trying to kick you when you're down, to the contrary, I'm sympathetic to your plight. I personally would never own a vehicle I could not maintain/diagnose/repair myself, but that's just me. I get the appeal of these vehicles to those whom don't wrench, they are attractive and exotic, but this is what happens with/to the uninitiated. Your first clue with regard to the proficiency of the first shop that sold you the vehicle was that they did not recommend the IMS bearing be changed at 175K km, which is about 110/120K miles, no? These bearings are wear items and as preventative maintenance, while the engine and transmission were apart for the clutch service, they should have strongly counseled you to change out the IMSB and the Rear Main Seal as well if even just for the sake of peace of mind. The early single row IMSB's, which your 2001 would have had, were/are notoriously problematic. Your second clue about that shop was when they diagnosed an IMSB failure, but not a full failure, and recommended a new bearing AND machining of the heads? I don't know what good machining of the head would do if your IMSB partial failure results in swarf (metal particulate) through out the internals of your engine. The third clue was their recommendation to use JBWeld on a fractured coolant pipe, which is just straight up malfeasance/negligence on their part as its reasonably foreseeable that, between the heat cycling and the vibration, that pipe was not an appropriate application for JBWeld. Truly sorry to read what happened to you, we all go into Porsche ownership with the rosiest outlook, but I'm glad you are pursuing legal recourse. Best of luck to you.

Good luck, look forward to reading more.

If only people that could maintain/fix these cars themselves bought these cars, wow Porsche would have been dead years ago. Best of luck with whatever happens. Find a good 996 mechanic, get an estimate and decide what to do from there.

Argeo, I would agree with you if they were buying newer cars under warranty, however, they are buying 15 and 20 year old cars, many with "deferred maintenance", that are ticking time bombs just waiting to go off. I wish that everyone whom purchased a used Porsche had a great motoring experience, but reality intrudes in unexpected and expensive ways. Those of us that wrench are able to own/maintain vehicles above our punching weight, for me its been BMW's and Alfa Romeo's and Jaguars, and now Porsches. But if something does go sideways, I'm confident I can get it back together and not get hosed by clowns out there like the garage the OP had the misfortune of dealing with because he did not know better, and thus the expensive lesson and consequent litigation.

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For sure, but being a 23 year old kid at the time (on my own), you also have to have some trust in the SME (subject matter expert) who you hope knows what they are doing and will look after you. For sure, not being able to maintain it myself has proven to be, frankly, awkward. Such is the life of apartment living in an out of control real estate boom (but now, flattening). Patients come to me asking for my expertise, and when something is beyond my mettle, I know that it is my duty to refer for the good of the patient. I guess being a good ol' Canadian, I had some faith that being a professional shop would have the same level of duty to their customers. I was mistaken. Of course I thought it was suspicious not to change it at 100k miles, but again, at the time, I was not an expert in the subject. They maintained the position that, typically, cars that sit tend to have IMS problems, and those problems tended to happen at lower mileages. At the time, I definitely believed them and they sounded very convincing. Obviously since all of this has happened (over the past 3-ish years), I've become much more informed on car ownership in general, as well as 996 ownership. I have definitely developed more of a keen eye with regards to checking out shops, doing my own research, etc. Monetarily, this was obviously an extremely expensive lesson to have to learn how to do all of this on my own, but luckily, it'll all be over soon due to the project nearing completion (COVID-19 obviously slowing my progress). The litigation, however, will likely drag a little while longer, but I maintain full confidence that the errors of their ways will be dirty laundry hanging for all to see. I'll try to update again tonight! -Matt

"Ticking time bombs", this just reinforces me getting out of 996 ownership. I do some work with help from everyone here such as the coolant tank, Water pump, struts, plugs... but I am not qualified to tear into the internals. Sounds like this is inevitable.

I mean, in hindsight, my move SHOULD have been to go to another shop that would be willing to do the clutch, RMS, and IMS upgrade together. If you do the IMS Solution Argeo, then you don't have to worry about that main problem. The 996 is a fabulous car. I bought the Turbo for a reason, though - to get away from the IMSB. My main reason for fixing my 996 C2 was sentimentality, and not having many 996.2 GT3's available locally for realistic pricing. Love the car to death enough to dump too much money into it. -Matt

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Good luck with everything. I have the same thinking as you where I'd like to be able to trust a shop. Sure, it would be great to work on things yourself, but for me i don't have the time and energy to mess with it. I'd rather pay someone a fair price and have it done right. It's when i pay, and things get done wrong. Then it irritates me.

I did the retro fit by a certified installer back in July. Not the same but hopefully will last two years and 10k. Good luck to OP.

sdematt, argeo, there's an old saying, "Buyer beware." which applies to products as well as to services. I think the best thing any uninitiated buyer can do is join a group, Porsche's owners club for example, and/or join a forum and ask questions. Much wisdom and many knowledgeable enthusiasts willing to offer help and advice to steer you through the potential pitfalls attendant to a paucity of knowledge regarding a product or service, in this case Porsches. I applaud the fact that you're willing to trust "subject matter experts", but the reality is that there's unscrupulous individuals and shops out there just looking to take your money. Argeo, its not inevitable that you car is going to hand grenade out from under you, but we are responsible for ensuring that we maintain our 996's in the best possible condition, stay on top of the routine maintenance, be mindful of the little things and the big issues likely won't occur. Any exotic foreign car has the potential for biting us financially, its the nature of the beast. We have chosen the 996 as our beast, I bought mine in 2013 and love it as much now as I did then, its so choice.

Thanks, I�m pretty good about preventative maintenance, no warning up, keeping under 3k until warming up, not running under 50 degrees. Did the PPI with a LN certified installer. I knew most of the pitfalls before, well so I thought. I had an 00 boxster S so I was aware of The IMSB, waterpump coolant tank, cam deviation stuff. Lately it�s been the push on cracked cylinders and the only way to fix is at least 15k for us folks that hire out for the big ones. Now your in turbo money. That did it for me. I�d sell sooner and eat the loss but I have my reasons. No doubt great cars, but struggling with risk and reward here. My problem. Guess I should have just stayed off the off the forums and drove blissfully into whatever happened. 😊 Next car make definitely. I�ll definitely be back for guidance if needed. Useful tool for sure.

Recap:: 2001 3.4 996 175k KM shop 1 replaces clutch, flywheel,(at reduced rate) advises IMSB ok shop 1 diagnosis failing IMSB, replaces IMSB and does head work? Shop 1 fixes coolant leak with JB weld? Shop 1 car has cam deviation 3 years later, shop 1 tries, but after several attempts can't fix it Shop 2 wants to do a complete overhaul Litigation to see who will pay for overhaul.. To be honest, I'm surprised shop 1 kept you running for 3 years !! What a mess...

Timeline is actually more like: Aug 2017 - IMSB Failure Dec 2017 - Car returns to me Mar 2018 - Car goes back to Shop 1 with Camshaft Deviation (<1000 miles since repair) June 2018 - Litigation begins June 2018- Car bounces from Porsche dealer (sits for 15 months because I was on deployment), then goes to performance shop in Oct 2019 Oct 2019 to Now - The Rebirth. Litigation ongoing. The biggest frustration was paid large amount of money to do "not a rebuild," car then experiences problems not long after, then Shop 1 says not our problem. There's the rub.

That Lotus Elise is outstanding, excellent color choice!

Engine is being shipped back from California - shop should get it in the next week or so. Very, very excited! I'll post pics when it comes in. -Matt

Classic case here, and a typical "finger pointing exercise". While I won't say what I think about how this scenario should have unfolded from the beginning. Each of you that know how I think, are thinking correctly. There are lots of ways this scenario could have been handled with a more positive experience. Now that the finger pointing exercise has begun- no one will win except the attorney. My only real question is why shop 1 removed the cylinder heads to address an issue with the IMSB? Further, what did they do to the heads, and who did that work. Why did they feel the cylinder heads needed anything? Did the bearing reach the point of failure where the valve timing was compromised, and the pistons contacted the valves? Scenarios like this is why we stopped working with cars that were previously repaired by other shops, or any scenario where another shop is involved. Its a disaster waiting to happen, as shop 2 will always blame shop 1 for everything, and shop 1 will always deny everything, then challenge the credibility of shop 2. As soon as someone mentions a word about litigating against another shop, I immediately cease all communications with them, and under no circumstance will I accept that job. Thats just how I roll. We have too many people try to send us cars just so we are cornered into helping them in a litigation against someone else. That can be a dealer, individual seller, another shop, or anyone else they may choose to try to sue, for any reason they can think of. My gauntlet process does a pretty good job of sniffing these people out. Maybe the OP will finally have this straightened out.

I 100% agree with you here, Jake. No one wins except the lawyers once we're at this stage. However, due to some things that are in the report that I can't/shouldn't post online since we're mid-litigation (although the courts are closed due to COVID-19), I'll PM them to you. However, I'm pretty sure in LN's IMSB replacement manual, it specifically states that if the IMSB has failed, stop here and don't just put in the new bearing. However, this is what happened and I don't think that's actual up for debate with the case. Edit: Seems like I can't PM you. Let me know if you are able to PM or if I should just post the generalities here. -Matt

ayes, my PMs are turned off. I prefer to keep all our dialogue in our ticketing system, for the record. Your debate will be "what is the definition of a filed bearing?" If the engine still runs, is that a failed bearing? If the engine stops running due to a bearing failure, is that a failed bearing? More than likely the person who will determine this, is not the person that should be determining this.

Okay, fair enough. Essentially, the shop the car is currently at did a tear-down of the motor, and produces some discussion that "alleges" that the last time the motor was put together, things were installed the wrong way causing destruction/failures, and timing was never set correctly for the motor (based on their experience and findings). -Matt

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This has been my "feeling" since buying my 2000 C4 Cab and joining this forum 6 months ago and I've already contemplated reselling the car before something really "bad" happens. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing -- and pretty f*cking scary if you end up w/a worst case scenario like happened to the OP. No way I'd stick w/a car that long that starting having problems. I'd fix whatever needed fixing and sell it ASAP as long as I had some "warning" of what was going wrong. Only problem is that when the IMS fails and timing chains break, you are usually (based on the stories I've read here) just SOL and are faced w/a Hobson's choice -- either fix it or dump it.

I honestly probably could have sold the car on the downlow once I discovered some particulate in the oil, but I'm not that kind of person to do that. I could have also sold it after the first "rebuild attempt" and dumped it. Again, I'm not the type of person to do that to another individual. I could have also sold it as a roller, but I felt the sentimental value was worth more than the roller cost. I'm very fortunate the I have a salary job for the government, because I'm sure this Corona thing wouldn't have helped the rebuild situation.

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Shop 2 had better have the experience, knowledge, and validity to make these claims stand up to the challenges they'll face. This is the finger pointing exercise that I spend all of my effort to avoid. I never want to be shop 1, or shop 2. I hope it comes out as well as possible, for all involved, and that the replacement engine also doesn't continue to create drama that adds yet another party to the pain.

Now I've connected the dots pretty well. OP's preamble is littered with sympathy seeking shovels of hard ship being a single 23 year old in " apartment living in an out of control real estate boom " and working in the medical profession during a pandemic while owning only 6 cars that includes a Porsche 911 Turbo and Lotus Elise. OP admits he didn't have a clue about these cars nor could he drive a car with manual transmission, but unknowingly purchases the 996 from a shop that also knows nothing about these cars and takes their advice in spite of their ignorance of the IMS bearing problem. 1 1/2 years later, OP returns the car to them for clutch service because they'd offer him a special deal. Bear in mind, the OP and his daddy didn't conduct a pre-purchase inspection originally, but decided to purchase it as-is and drive the car for almost 2 years even though the car had a check engine light "from Day 1" as he stated. A month and a half later, dad and son are changing the oil and find unwanted particles in the oil sump. What could it be? IMS bearing metal? Chain guide plastic? Bear in mind, OP has been driving the car with a check engine light, right? Car was sent back to the same shop for repair. Tells them to "spare no expense". Wow... that's something coming from a single 23 year old. Takes 5 months to do the job. They now eat crow and admit the IMS bearing is definitely failing and recommend replacement. They have the heads rebuilt, but not a full engine rebuild. To soothe his feelings of loneliness, OP buys a cold air intake and Fabspeed cat system for the car. But the car runs rough afterwards. Then one month later, the coolant is leaking too! Oh the humanity! Returns it to the same shop and OP agree to let them put JB weld on it. What?! (litigation begins) Now, the car is still running rough, really rough and OP decides to take it to a 2nd shop where is it diagnosed for high cam deviations. Not 5 or 6 degrees off, but 12 degrees off!!! Even though there is apparent litigation, OP is advised to return it to the original shop which he complies. After several attempts, the shop throws in the towel admits that they don't know what to do with the engine. OP is "feeling" sports car sick and prescribes himself a dose of Lotus Elise. (forgive the medical humor) In the end, instead of admitting this was the worst case of buyer beware and the need for a PPI, the OP is lawyering up over a used car purchase (warranty?) and service that was done almost 2 years after the purchase. You add performance (ex. cold air intakes) add-ons that are known to be problematic on these cars and you admittedly drive around in a car that should have had the engine rebuilt from the get-go. The intermediate shaft bearing was probably in it's latter stage of failure at the point of purchase. That failing bearing was contaminating the engine with damaging metal which probably causing the high camshaft deviations. Now you may have coolant issues because of the sloppy JB weld IMHO. Your first mistake was not conducting a pre-purchase inspection. You second mistake was trusting a shop that didn't know what they were doing. Your biggest mistake is crying foul over a used car purchase and poor decision making by lawyering up. Curious, what do you parents do for a living?

Strange seeing a 4 spoke steering wheel on a 2001, didn't even think that was an option in 01, only have I seen them on early 99 models. A couple of things just to confuse the issues even more. The metal debris doesn't look all that bad, but could have been from two different sources, IMSB and the crank thrust bearing? Cam deviation of 12 degrees could have been from a failed 10cent green rubber o-ring in the cam actuator, we have seen that lead many around in circles in failed repair attempts. In one way I would love to witness the litigation of this mess, but on the other hand I'm just glad I'm not involved in any of it !!! Good luck to all evolved, but like many has said, the Lawyers will be the only winners here..

As I also reside in BC, I would love to know which shops were used so I can avoid them in the future.

@NuttyProfessor You have the story slightly off, the check engine light was on after the work was done at the service shop. Prior to the metallic debris, there was no check engine light. The rest is close-ish. It's definitely been a learning experience for further purchases, that's for sure. Tough lesson, but a lesson nonetheless. I'm sure that if you paid someone to do a service and it caused you damage instead of a service, I'd hope that you would do something more than putting your hands in your pockets and kicking the dirt and saying, "Aw shucks..." The post is the story about the car, not about me personally, so feel free to tell me all the different permutations of jabs you would say depending on my parents' income bracket. I'd love to hear them all, I'm sure they're funny! I have to agree, the TL R is: always get a PPI, find a shop and mechanic you can trust; and the rest will be the build coming together.

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Oh, okay. You said "Day 1" and so I was under the impression it was when you originally took delivery of the car. I deal with people that are well established and stand behind their work. An oral contract is as about as good as the paper it's written on and warranties on used cars, especially Porsches are just about as worthless as ***** on a bull. I don't randomly, with a finger in the air, blindly choose just anybody to carry out work on these cars. I would spend a great deal of time researching the most respected shop in my area by contacting PCA, Porsche 996 owners, or other reliable sources. When I had my IMS bearing swapped out, I looked for a shop that was a certified installer for the IMS Solution. These people are hand picked and trained by Jake Raby. One call or email to LN Engineering would have led me in the right direction. IMHO, in your particular case, you probably had an internal in process failure in the making. The problem should have been remedied at the point of sale if you still desired the car. Again, a good PPI would have shown that. Your car has the single row bearing that is the worst bearing of all three designs and well documented to fail. Plus, you have the 5-chain engine which is also know to have chain guide/solenoid problems along with other things like intermix. You and your daddy dropped the ball when you didn't get a second opinion. You listened to the wrong doctor. But no need to add insult to injury. Hindsight is 20/20. That's happened to me, but since I spent time researching a good shop with a well-known honest mechanic, when something was broken, he called me and explained the mistake and took care of it. But in your case, I'm still not 100% they caused the damage that showed up in the oil canister. Please help me understand your position a little better. Do you believe the clutch service from shop#1 caused metal and/or plastic debris in the oil canister? I'm referring to the service you had done in June of 2017. So you took the car BACK to shop#1 that did the clutch service, correct? We've already confirmed internal failure because you found metal in the sump, correct? And so, crap is already happening inside this engine BEFORE shop#1 even touches the engine again, correct? Shop#1 then removes the engine and replaces the IMS bearing and has the heads machined, correct? What else was done? Chain guides, solenoids, anything else? This takes 5 months? Did they check for high cam deviations? A month later you have a coolant issue. This could be non related, correct? You take it back to Shop#1 and decline proper service by replacement with a Porsche OEM part and instead agree to have them JB weld the engine, correct? The car is running rough with MIL i.e. check engine light, correct? You add aftermarket intake and cats, correct? but still running rough You take it to shop#2, and they properly diagnose it to have extremely high cam deviations, correct? They advice you to take it back to shop#1, correct? Shop#1 can't repair the problem and tells you take a walk. Is this when you began legal action or before? Now, car and engine is at Shop#3 for post mortem analysis, correct? They are planning on rebuilding the engine and claim the engine was not timed correctly? Shop#1's fault? I'm just curious... Is one or both of your parents attorneys? I'll tell you my reasoning once you answer that question. Keep us updated. This is turning out to be the best thread in a long time on Rennlist.

Oh, that's for darn sure. Nope, I don't think that's the case at all. But, I do think (again, in hindsight) a great recommendation from them should have been "let's do the IMS while we're in there," but that's more of a hindsight thing, once again. I took it back to Shop #1 when we found that metal particulate, that's correct. This is correct. During initial repair Aug 2017-Dec 2017, no chain guides or solenoids were done (never talked about at the time, and not on the bill). Apparently took 5 months because the machine shop they sent to was behind/backed up. They didn't specifically check for cam deviations at THAT point in time. Car was brought to Shop 2 March 2018, who reported high cam deviations. Car now went back to Shop 1. Assembled and disassembled >2 times. 2 chain guides were replaced to try to figure out the cam deviations. I pushed the issue to also have the camshaft solenoids replaced (I was being a good boy and doing my research). The problem was not fixed. [QUOTE]A month later you have a coolant issue. This could be non related, correct?[QUOTE] A month-ish after receiving the car back from a 5-month wait. This could be non-related. This is correct, but the intake was installed during the 5-month wait period. Correct. After this point. Amongst other things, that's correct. There's lots of little goodies in the analysis. Funnily enough, no! I grew up in a very salt-of-the-earth household with very clear boundaries of right and wrong, just and unjust, but also perhaps of being too trusting. You hope that other people will hold themselves to similar standards that you uphold, and this is one of the major times where that didn't turn out so well. I tried to work with the shop for months discussing how this could be made right and correct, but they stonewalled me over and over again. I didn't know what else to do to try and right the wrong. -------------- I'm fairly confident that the right (and correct) side of story will prevail. It's not really about the money. To me, it's moreso about taking the responsibility. I know if I did something wrong, I would just feel horrible and rectify any mistake without being asked. I'm glad it's entertaining - the more entertaining part will be when everything starts coming back together!

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It's not about money? really? If you got the car free and the shop never charged you a dime for the work, would you still pursue a lawsuit? Probably not. Or, maybe you would. Silly analogy I know. In some ways, I think you not being totally truthful with yourself when you say it's NOT about money. It's human nature. Hurt people, hurt people. You believe they screwed you over and now you want restitution. That means, M O N E Y. Correct? You're still young in your 20s and have a wonderful job, roof over your head, and 6 vehicles at your disposal. You seem to have a supportive family to turn to as well. Maybe this is a feather in the hat? Middle finger to the shop#1? I don't really know. I do know there is a good chance you don't have a case. IMHO, you can't prove 100% that this car wasn't already suffering internal damage when you bought it. You have no evidence to rule it out. If you had taken it to an objective shop for a inspection before and after the service by shop#1, then you would have a stronger case. But how is it shop#1's fault? Yea, that botched the timing. But did they? Maybe the car was already failing originally and causing the cam shaft deviations. Maybe they honestly couldn't repair the problem or just didn't want to deal with you because of the threat of a lawsuit? Regardless, I hope everything is resolved properly. p.s. you never did tell me what your parents do for a living. They're lawyers aren't they? Admit it!

Its easier to be a victim, than a failure.

My car croaked 9 months after purchase, Yep,, I "could" go back after the dealer I got the car from,, but I feel like its an un-likely win for anybody the hassle factor is too high, life's too short. I'm going to take the lumps and rebuild the motor its going to cost me more than it should have. But its the car me and my wife wanted and it ran for about 8 months perfectly and died because of the AOS fail or a possible pre-existing crack in cylinder #1. I don't think ther eis any way to "prove" the full sequence of events, there was massive oil in the intake and it now uses coolant... I'd rather have a good shop just start from square 0 and lets do it right, or I may just go down the self rebuild path, the car is a toy ,, having it sit is frustrating but at this point gotta just suck it up, ours is a clean car, so other than the money.. (Which stings a bit..) I've gotten past the regret stage. More or less.

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Though not a 1:1 comparison, I bought an all original, perfectly maintained Honda FL350R Odyssey (not the freaking Odyssey van, the real 80s death machine) a few months ago. I blew it up within the first 15 minutes.. Rod through the case, the whole nine yards. I didn’t even let the seller know that it happened. I bought it, and assumed it as it was. I tore the bitch down and built it... Then I blew it up again, with less than an hour of run time on my build, and it wasn’t stock.. This time it grenaded at 8,300 RPM, and nothing was left to build... It was then I found the fuel pump was the issue, and on both occasions it leaned way out.. So, I guess I could have went back to the seller and complained...Or sought out an attorney or etc. Nope, I’ll build the bitch even bigger next time. Failure is just an opportunity to make it better than it ever was before.. Currently looking for a core FL350 engine, that I can build, if anyone has one :-)

Off the topic,, but in a fun direction.. I've seen a few running snowmobile engines.. scary fast..

PDX, are you rebuilding it to stock spec or perhaps going bigger? Just curious if you plan to do any other modifications @Nutty - Not lawyers, labourers. -Matt

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Yeah, I don�t like engine conversions. I�ll always prefer building up what belongs, and putting it back where it belongs.

It's mind blowing to me that any shop would undertake major engine work without first looking at all available indicators of engine health. Cam deviations would be in the Top 3 of my Top 10 list of things to check before making external prognostications, whether it was my time, my money, or my time and customer's money. Mind blowing.

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So I guess the whole "LS swap" all the things isn't up your alley? -Matt

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Hi, Matt. Where are you on the engine rebuild? I see you're putting the attention into paint.