996 vs 993 - will prices meet in the middle?

Sooner? Or later? I did a search of completed 993 auctions...cars that actually sold in the last few weeks on eBay. I only used nb coupes...no 4s or Ss or targas or cabs. Eleven sales...hi price was $44,900...low was $29,900...avg $36,009. And a very nice 993 with tip failed to get past $26,000 and meet its $30k reserve after two runs on eBay. This is all significantly less than the euphoric asking prices we often see and that 993 owners quote as their road to riches. There are wide swings between asking prices and what sellers are actually getting. At the same time...high milage 996s (again just going with nb coupes) seem to languish at 993 salvage title prices. However low milage unmolested versions may have found a solid floor and entry level prices may begin to more accurately reflect the car's value. Bottom feeder priced cars will get snatched up by people tired of pouring money into Miata mods only to end up still owning...a Miata. So, examples of 993s under $30,000 and 996s pushing up to that price. Who here owns both and please describe how you see the differences.

Condition and mileage are the two factors that influence prices more than anything. You just indicated that the average 993 was mid 30s and average 996s were "993 salvage" priced (meaning $10K - $20K?) So what's new? I don't see this as coming together. 993s were made in relatively small numbers. 996s were mass produced in comparison. This will affect prices in general. But, a pristine low mileage 993 will always hold high(er) value, and I'm certain as the 996 ages the same will be true for that generation. In time there will be fewer and fewer low mileage/pristine 996s and they will command a relatively higher price percentage wise than "average" 996s.

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Actually I didn't say average 996s but rather high mileage 996s were pulling in 993 salvage numbers of low-mid teens...up to high teens. A lot of dealers are selling 993s with the "hurry hurry buy now before prices go higher" but I'm seeing 993s sitting on the lots and sitting on ebay at the irrational exuberance asking prices. Some sell...many more don't make their reserves and get recycled back into the market. And only a few are pristine and with low mileage...and I think any savy buyer knows that low mileage can be as much of a curse as a blessing. I'm aware of the volume of production differences and I think that has only a modest impact on 993 prices because there is no shortage of them, they are all over the market. There is also no shortage of 996s but I see a firming of the prices for the very best 996s and a softening of prices for mid level very good 993s. One car has been undervalued and the other has been over hyped. I think one of the things hurting 996 prices today are that large numbers of buyers of the "new style" Porsches are looking for automatics or PDKs, and there are more 997s with those features on dealers lots than 996s. I also think dealers abandoned used 996s in the midst of the IMS chaos... they didn't want to be selling potential legal liabilities. Now the cars are 12 to 16 years old and many buyers want newer cars just as collectors want older cars. The good news is that as we learn to live with ebola and IMS, the 996 is becoming appreciated as an enthusiasts Porsche and if you are looking for a manual transmission, you'll have a better selection of cars among the 996s than 997s. In favor of 993s is being the "last" of something. But there is also the status of being the "first" of something. Perhaps the 996 will become thought of in the same class as the 356 A and the first 911s. The 997 might end up with the 356 Bs, and maybe the 991 will be with the 356 Cs, etc. Again all this is based on nb C2 coupes...I'm not playing with C4s, Ss, Turbos, targas or Cabs. So why swap my 996 for a 993? I still feel the 993 is the best looking Porsche ever made, and it has solid mechanicals that will meet any demand I would ever make of it. I don't think it is a better car than the 996...just better looking. But when push comes to shove, will I actually make the change? I don't know. But a salvage/title/priced 993 would give me a toy to play with at a cost that would let me rationalize keeping both.

Johnny I has been bitten hard by the Porsche bug! "It's a slippery slope" he's heard screaming as he slides down the rabbit hole...

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you realize, i hope, that the $29k 993 was a salvage title? Your mental masturbation over this 993/996 crap is a waste of your time and everyone elses. Either buy a 993 and stfu, or don't (and stfu)

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Ladies and gentlemen, I present the angriest man on the Internet.

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aww, do you need a hug?

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Only if a tree falls on every 993...

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Fixed it: Perhaps the 996 will become thought of in the same class as the 924 and the first water-pumpers. The 997 might end up with the 944 , and maybe the 991 will be with the 968 , etc.

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Johnny please. No matter how hard you try, you will not be able to convince the world that the sky is falling. 993 values are solid and not coming down any time soon. Please enjoy your mental ************ fantasies in the privacy of your own home. Most of us here are grounded by reality from joining you on this fantasy.

I think tips and manuals should be valued differently. They are not comparable cars. I don't think your analysis of the 993 market is accurate. Tip vs manual, salvage title vs clean (as noted by Quad above), are all material differences in valuation. If you think clean titled 993s are overpriced, why don't you just buy a decent salvage titled car? If it's repaired properly and drives like it should, then you'll get what you want. After all, you're not looking for the valuation increase on the car, you just want that driving experience at a price you're comfortable paying.

I dont know.

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Exterior/Interior color combo, Original wheels?, brake upgrades?, area of the country, local liquor laws, whether the local sales tax has been adjusted in recent years. I'd say the research is just beginning. Please report back only after it's complete.

993 was last air-cooled, low volume 911 and it will only continue to appreciate. 993 is one of the best looking 911 cars ever. 996 was a transitional model, made in much higher #s compared to the 993. 997 with higher mileage already can be had in high 20s and low 30s range; there was a gorgeous black/black 08 C2S with 100k miles for sale in Phoenix for $35k by dealer. As 997s get older and cheaper, 996s will become even cheaper. In a few years 997s will be selling in low to mid 20s; that's current 996 territory.

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Priceless stuff. Besides isolating those poor folks who contract ebola, mostly in West Africa, and the fact that someone has a better than average chance of dying from it, once contracted, I guess you can say we've learned to live with it. Very analogous to an IMS bearing failure in 996.

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But these are in higher numbers and less quirky than the older ones. I think for a while they will be an affordable way to get a really fun and good looking car that a person can daily drive into the ground and not have to worry about future value as much or at least worry about it at the moment.

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The one thing I think you are leaving out of your equation is the escalating prices of the new Porsche's. I think that will be a source of future support for the 996/997 prices. While original production numbers speak to relative rarity and supply, market demand also effects prices. When a car like the 993 gets into the toppy price zone people start looking at 964...and then 996s. The only thing that will prove anyone right or wrong is time. $29900 for some salvage titles would be appropriate...theft..minor accidents at the time when wholesale 993 prices were down in the low 20s. Again what people ask and what they get is two different issues. The accident free 993 that could get offers over $26k tell me that the market is getting soft.

The "accident free 993 that could[n't] get offers over $26k" was a salvage title and a tiptronic, per the comments above. Both of those facts affect the price. Can you post a link to that listing, please?

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Well, Johnny, looks like you woke the 993 crowd up. Looks like you might have hurt someone's feelings. Now, apologize to Quadcammer for insulting the Type 993 or else he'll be in here all the time. And we certainly don't want that now, do we?

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I agree. This thread should be called "just the tip." Er, tips.

John has opened up Pandora's Box.

John, Hold off on an air cooled car until the next housing market crash. Prices will come down at that point (then go back up when it's over).

Yes the 993 owners seem to take this personally...I don't know why. We are simply talking about what we experience in the market. I always start my pricing of a car at what a dealer would pay if I was trading it in. Then I decide how much profit I'm willing to give him based on how much I like the car. When I've bought fine art it wasn't an investment it was because I found it something I really liked and wanted to hang in my home but I also set price limits. Same with vintage watches. If you are a dealer you have to make a profit. If you are an enthusiast you're just happy to break even. The car I mentioned that sold for $29900, I didn't see that the was salvage...I'll go back and look. The tip that I was originally interested in (until I drove a tip) and that could not get an offer over $26k was not salvage, it was a very very nice looking car. I've even had second thoughts and am trying to contact the owner. As of right now, a 95 guards red/blk w/ 82k miles opened at $300, closed at $40,200 and didn't make its reserve. A 97 tip blk/blk w/ 65k was asking $42950...no offers. A 97 targa w/ tip blk/blk opened at $10k closed at $28100 reserve not met. Relisted as Buy It Now for $48997 or make offer. I wish the seller lots of luck. I looked at a 95 white w/ blue interior...asking $32k...really didn't like the color combo and it just looked too tired to get interested in. I honestly do not need a second Porsche. At a certain price I'd have to sell the 996 to buy the 993. But as I see the market getting wobbly I start to get greedy and think that if I fine the exact right one at the exact right price I can have them both. And if I can do it on my senior citizens budget then others might be able to do it as well. And for all the RL rich folks who think that $55k for a 95 C2 is a fair price...that's their choice and I won't **** on their shoes because I disagree. I can post links and will in the future. And anyone who wants to can go to ebay and look up whatever sold or auctions that ended without a sale.

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No one takes what you say personally. We just all know you won't be buying a Porsche 993. In my case, I just love reading the funny $hit you write, like comparing living with the Ebola virus to living with the 996 IMS bearing failure. Please write some more funny stuff, it's very entertaining to me.

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Maybe I won't buy a 993 again. And maybe I will. Either way the market is getting soft and what I do isn't the issue. I don't think market has softened because of the cars, I think it is because of the economy being soft and car prices are reflecting that. The stock market seems to keep going up but insiders are selling their positions 33 to 1.

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Looks like April 2015 is 16:1 and May 2015 is 19:1. http://www.cnbc.com/id/15839243 But who really knows why insiders sell positions. Maybe some are selling company stock to diversify, maybe go on a trip this summer or even purchase their favorite Porsche.

(redacted) Never mind. No reason to be a ***** on Friday. I have the rest of the week for that...

The crazy thing is the 993 actually has a sticky about prices and what people actually pay. You can get a 993 for 35-40k.

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Oh, do tell. Please. A little snarkiness never hurt anybody on a Friday afternoon.

Johnny: The economy is soft? Hmmm. And you will decide what profit you will let your a Dealer have? At $350 per oil change cause you like the coffee? Double hmmm.

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Yes yes yes.

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Johnny, the market has spoken ... Are 996 prices rising? Are 993 prices falling? Are you going to own a 993? No, No and No.

All good things come to those who wait. Things to read re: the market: The Death of Money, Black Swan, Empire of Debt, The Collapse of Complex Societies, and lots of stuff by Ron Paul. Now is not the time to buy inflated assests, now is the time to buy hard assets...and cars are not one of them. If you buy a car such as a Porsche...enjoy it each day but don't think of it as a growth investment. As the saying goes, buy on the dips. Yes yes yes.

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There is a Wealth Effect that is in play right now. Consumer confidence and pent up demand are combining to create a buying frenzy. Luxury real estate, luxury cars, Private Jet fractionals, etc are all through the roof. Trickle down economics are at play and that is also reflected in the number of move up buyers in the real estate sector. The only thing keeping that in check are the new Dodd Frank lending regs. Probably a good thing, but still way to far on the other side of the pendulum from 2004-2007. The Economy is growing steadily, not rapidly, which is also a good sign. Money is cheap. So is oil. But not for long. Watch interest rates and oil prices rise and their effect on the global economy. That will be key. Or not...

Based on what I see the 996 has already rebounded value wise. You won't see this in the KBB values, bt you can see it in completed sales. This year we have had a 300% increase in inquiries for cars with our engines over 2012 and every day I get a dozen emails stating " I am looking to buy a 996 and want information on preventative packages for the engine". This is how I gauge the market, and based on it, the 996 rebound is well under way. As far as the aircooled cars, I just added another to my collection yesterday. I can't buy enough, fast enough and I desperately need a pre 74 car but can't find one at a deal!

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Well some of them could be at this point, below is a lot of dumb common sense but think about it. Let's just assume the econmy stays at this level or grows over the next 3-5 years. Our lowely 996's were new back in 1999 and the last one came off in 2004ish or for rounder numbers let's say 2000 - 2005. They are now going to be, in 3-5 years approaching 15-20 years old. I'm not saying they are going to be a classic, but I could almost put collector plates on mine here in MN. Also think that the other models are going to be another 3-5 years older. So you're 90's ones are going to be flirting with 30 years and the 80's will be approaching 40 years. That's really old to be taking it out on the road all the time. Not that they wouldn't still be dependable, but that's just starting to get a little old. This, I feel, moves those older models - more so than ours - even more outside of the daily driver and casual owner (someone like me that wants to drive rather than collect) to the collector. Which isn't a bad thing. Also I feel, it moves the new buyers (someone like myself now, in their 30's) to cars like the 996 which provides a value plus modern touches - again for driving and not collecting. Although I wasn't in the market before, but isn't this what happened to some other 911 models? They were in that perfect age between collectable and affordable - where no collectors wanted them yet and they still could be driven. Also what we're going to see, and again this is common sense, are more high mile 996's as people like myself are getting them and using them as a daily driver. So the prices for some may still go down or stay even going into the next 3-5 years depending on how the market takes these high mile cars. Personally I don't care, it's just something to talk about, as I'm not going to have the money or time to start a collection. *nothing wrong at all with those collecting these cars and/or not driving them a lot. If it wasn't for everyone interested in the brand (or any brand for that matter) we wouldn't have the types of support that we do (again for any brands that are collected). [edit] I'd love to pick up a 80's or 70's model, but I wouldn't be a great owner with no place for it or time to drive it. Plus I'd feel bad putting on tons of miles as a daily driver. I have my bikes for collecting. IMO

The average wage for jobs lost in this last big crash/recession was $56k per year. The average wage of the jobs created since the "recovery" began is $29k. Plus they labor force participation is at an all time low. Plus the demographics of the US poputlation has projected unfunded liabilities greater than any in history. Plus student loans are now are over one trillion (bigger than the housing bubble) and the default (permitted or otherwise) rates are skyrocketing. We are in an economy based on debt. That is not the road to recovery...let alone prosperity. Can America muddle through for another ten years? Only if continuing decline is your definition of recovery. This is all the result of 60 years of credit expantion...of kicking the can down the road instead of paying the bills due. And at the end of the road is the cliff...and we are irreversibly moving towards it. Buy on the dips, but don't rush...they will be bigger ones to come.

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More recently, the market tanked roughly +/- around 1987, 1990, 1998, 2002 and most recently in 2008-2009, so market corrections happen. And another one will be coming sooner rather than later. But will you be a 993 buyer, if your stock/bond/real estate portfolio dips by 30-50%? Nope, so this thread doesn't matter.

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We all invest in the same economy...but with different strategies based on different beliefs. Good luck to you, because I have no intention of having a debate on the state of the economy with someone who gladly pays $350 for an oil change because you like the barista at the dealership.

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Yeah I've been struggling on whether to sell my e30 m3 now rather than wait and risk another collapse where prices may swing lower. Hmmm sell my e30 m3 and 996 for a 993? LOL

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That is easy. No. For an air cooled 993 or 964 turbo? Yes. There is also 997TT.

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Oh, SNAP!

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Yeah I was kidding but if I did, it would have to be a 997tt as a 993tt would only sit in my garage as an art exhibition, as I'd be too afraid to drive it(for more reasons than one).

I have never, ever lost money on a Porsche. I have never even broken even, I've always made money. But I seldom sell them...now I just hoard them. Just bought another one yesterday. But none of mine have radiators....

It's hard to lose money on something you refuse to sell.

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I only stopped selling them about 2 years ago... One I bought for 9k in 2009 and have only tuned up since I owned it has gained so much value that I turned down 40k for it last week..

Will the prices ever meet in the middle? http://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/de...5366/overview/ I guess 993 = 996^2 IMHO: The market must be on crack!!!

I am thinking about picking up a few 996's and just sitting on them until the prices sky rocket, it is bound to happen since Johnny said so.

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The frunk of that car must be filled with crack. It's almost as funny as the na c2 on ebay for $125,000. Of course there are ten times as many that aren't selling for $42k. And then some do...but most don't. Of course the wide bodies and turbos are going for more...and the tips are going for less. But I'm just looking for one car...and it is out there and it will happen sooner than later. As for 996s...I don't expect them to ever sell for stupid money...but I do expect them to continue the slow climb to a price area that matches their mechanical attributes.

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Did I really say that? Or are you just inferring I said it? If I did say it, please reproduce the quote.

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For those of you who don't speak Irish, what he said is: "Bullsh!t. Quote or it didn't happen."

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Yep, saw that black 914. Nice car! I only go for pre-75's though... CA smog and those rubber bumpers kill the 75/76 for me. I agree with you though, have been desperately seeking a good 2.0 for a fair price. It is becoming a unicorn. P.S. Why does anyone care if Mr. Irish pays $350 for an oil change so that he can ogle the barista? It may well be 350 well spent!

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Because it's a foolish decision when you can spend under $70 on materials and DIY and then take the $280 over to your favorite strip joint for a couple private dances or more.

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If you go NA 993 or 964, then budget for a supercharger.

Easily the best deal is a 996 because it drives as good or better than the older ones and has such a bad rep along with so many made that it sells for peanuts so is in my opinion the best deal. However it will most likely never be worth much or if that ever changes it will still be many years from now. I would buy the older ones that are already popular for the big money if investment is a goal while you can because they will be even bigger money every year. The 996 is to drive and admire and thats where its value is at. I just sold my old VW for enough to by a pristine 996, kind of crazy isn't it. Last year I sold a motorcycle for over 200000 last year that was 10000 15 years ago!

I've been tracking the 996s also, and have also tracked the older 964 C2s for a while. In fact, I almost bought a 1993 RS America Roadster w/ 60k for $30k, but friends all said that 993s($50k+ at that time) would hold up and the 964s would not. Fast forward, and now the 964s have bounced from the teens into the $20-30k+ range, and I bet the RS is now worth $50k. For me, it's been almost 2 yrs since I got my 996 C4S for $24k w/ 67k miles w/ LOTS of upgrades(I did IMS/new clutch), and I think the market is now $30k+ for that same car. My guess is that eventually a clean 996 would not stay in the teens, and should move toward $20k+. Heck, I sold my 1989 Carrera Cab for $22k not thinking it'd move up, and now that's worth $30k+ also. PL

I understand demand/supply and its impact on values but from my personal perspective, I have hard time justifying an old air cooled Porsche. Maybe a nice 993 is different (admit have never driven one) but high values for 964s?? Drove my neighbors 964 and I'm actually helping him sell it as we speak but no matter how hard I try to convince myself to like it, I just can't. It's slow. To me, Porsche needs to feel fast. Not necessarily super-car fast but something that feels like it's moving when you floor it. I think 996 is a great compromise between a raw/old school sports car and a modern driveable vehicle that keeps you warm/cool and can be driven daily. Also, if a car costs you an arm and a leg, you better enjoy driving it. Not saying air cooled Porsches wouldn't be fun to drive but to me fun is a combination of several elements and speed/power is one of the critical ones. I know, just my two cents. Peace.

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One is a relationship investment, and the other is a transaction.

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Married guys don't need any more "relationship investment", they need more "transactions". LOL

Dammit, made me laugh.

Look! It's the Antiques Roadshow!

Well I know one 993 that isn't getting any cheaper...the one I used to own. I tracked down the owner to see what was happening. He's been turning down obscene offers for the car. Of course this one does have some interesting history...and its a 95 in Riviera Blue.

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Ok, I'll bite ... what is the story behind the 95 Riv Blu?

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If you recall the Road & Track intro of the 993 it featured a Riviera Blue 993 on the cover. That was a Euro model a year before the car came to the USA. When Porsche intro'd the car at the 95 Porsche Parade they used a US version in the same color. It was driven by the head of PNA at the Parade. That car was then given to the Porsche press department which used it all over the country for newpapers and magazines to test and give driving impressions of the model. It appeared in two issues of R&T and at the SEMA show, and at other auto shows around the US. In that first year of service it put on 35k miles. Porsche then offered it to their dealers as what is known as a Brass Key or Brass Hat...meaning PNA was offering it to them at a serious discount. Technically PNA was the first owner and the car was technically a used car. It was advertised in the LA times in a little small box. The new ones were going for about $70k and this one was being offered at 50k because of the miles. I had sold my RS America about a year before and I just had to go see what Riviera Blue was and when I saw it in the show room I fell to my knees and bowed. Nobody made an offer on the car. I had just come out of a disasterous financial situation and really wasn't able to buy it...but at the same time I had to have it. A week later I drove it home. The negotiations on the car put me in contact with people at PNA...and that is where I learned that particular car's story. They gave me a full list of where the car was shown, what publications, etc. Through PNA I was able to get back issues from R&T with the car. I was also given a copy of the PNA LA Auto Show video introing the model, sales brochures etc. All of this material is now with the current owner. I did make one change to the car. I bought it with the 16" Carrera Cup rims and I later changed to the 17s...which a I later regreted because I thought the 16s proved to be a better street wheel/tire combination. This all may mean nothing to you but I found it special and made sure the new owner had all this information.

Did the Euro models have a S model in '95 or did someone put that emblem on? I thought S's were only made in '97 & '98, no?

You are correct. The S on this car is the work of the current owner.

Great color and great story, John.

Thanks. Here's some blatant self promotion. So my new book is now available on Kindle at Amazon. Sometimes true and sometimes fiction. Sex, murder, Hollywood real life stories, going to the movies with your grandmother, a Christmas truce in World War One, a marriage examined under the microscope of cancer, the search for the mystery of the great hole...two books in one or one life split in two. Look for special promotional prices May 25th through June 1...or buy it now and be ahead of the curve.

John, cool story on the first US 993... here is another plug for your book Amazon.com: Man with Gun and The Sea of Ulysses eBook: John Ireland: Kindle Store Amazon.com: Man with Gun and The Sea of Ulysses eBook: John Ireland: Kindle Store The 993 pricing exuberance has now officially jumped the shark ... $249 for a 96 Targa http://www.ebay.com/itm/171789574125?item=171789574125&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466&rmvSB=true

Or at least one of the first in the US. But the close ties to PNA do give a nice glow. The current owner is deeply in love with it...he's kept it since I sold it in '98. Why do some white 993s look actually good and others just look so flat and dull. maybe the lighting or something because it is the same in person...some just jump out and say "look at me" and others could be parking meter cars. As for the $249k Targa...and with those low miles I'd consider it a liability. Unless the next buyer is just going to continue the tradition of parking it and giving tours in his garage. I'm looking at two white ones now...the price gets me excited but the color doesn't. Spent a couple of hours today helping my brother-in-law put the hood back on his 356 B Roadster. Fresh paint...everything is getting fitted and aligned. If he gets the $180k he expects I am trying to get him to put $30k on a 996 and put the rest in the bank.

It's PCNA, not PNA, BTW.

Yes, that's true. I suggest "TNA" if you're in need of a three-letter acronym.

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John, I've noticed this a couple of times too. One was a 964, one a 993. My theory is that people can generally get by without proper polishing and waxing with a white color because the color can still look "shiny" when it is actually in pretty bad shape. If you don't carefully polish out paint of any color, you will not get it to "pop". I see this problem quite often on silver cars for the same reason.

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do you have a learning disability?

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Careful. Rumor has it there is a female among us...

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I prefer the phrase "**** or get off the pot"

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Don't you worry, Johnny will see himself as being correct one of these days, when the equities market cycles downward. As Johnny said, markets go up and down. He just needs to time the market properly and buy a 993 on a dip.

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Exactly...everything returns to mean value and that is the time to buy. Houses, cars, gold, whatever. I looked at a 993 today...it was so rough that I didn't want to go farther. However I did take the time to reread the Owners Manual because it was a tiptronic. I never read that part before because I always have manuals. But there was very good information on how the tip reacts to driver input and how to use the various gears to activate certain behavior in the transmission brain. This car was undrivable but I do need to go find another tip and drive it to see if it can be as much fun as a manual, in its own way. I'm beginning to wonder if all the folks here who like to **** on my shoes are really angry that they paid too much and they're afraid the market is turning against them and lots of other will have better 993s at better prices. Relax...I paid top dollar on my 996 and I have no regrets. But top dollar on a 996 is just under fair market value for an average 993.

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You do have regrets. You sold your Riviera Blue 993 NB and now can't afford to get it back. Anyway, I was being sarcastic. Real estate has doubled, tripled and/or quadrupled here in the SF Bay Area in the past 20 +/- years. So, no regressing towards the mean here. 993 prices may have some bumps in the road, but they just don't make air-cooled Porsches anymore.

Quotes source post: 12279670

I see you are local to me. If you should ever want a ride in an n/a 993 that is configured and setup to it's potential I'm happy to oblige. Rest assured your perspective on air cooled 911's, the visceral sensation of the flat6 whomping behind you and the emotion that goes with it will surprise you. I owned 2 996's as my first Porsches both brand new before going back (which for me was forward on my enthusiasts path). In fairness there is GT3 money in my car and then some (you could buy a 996 for just the cost of the gearbox) but the result delivers at least to my expectations anyway. That's the thing about the 993/996 debate ( IMO). The newer car is so much stronger, more capable, comfortable and modern out of the box, and the 993 infinitely upgradable (USA gearing most significantly). To each their own though both are great in their own way.

And just to confirm. There is nothing "slow" about this 2780lb 993. It absolutely hauls ***.

Great looking car. And I loved my 993 but I'll never be able to afford that particular one again. Ideally I'd like to keep the 996 at least until I would have to admit I wasn't driving it enough, and at the same time find my way back into a 993. At one time I had considered one with a salvage title, but after checking with California DMV it seems like it could be a big big hassle to bring a salvage title in from out of state and then try to get Califnoria to license it. Perhaps for someone with more DIY resources than I have it would be worth trying. I appreciate the relative simplicity of the 993 over the newer cars. There is no urgent "need" to buy one tomorrow...just something I'm actively working on. Yours is one of those white one that really looks stunning.

Quotes source post: 12293817

You're right, I'll never get that blue one back...and now that I've seen it again, at this point in time, I don't find it any nicer than your yellow cab or a guards red coupe or lots of black on black ones. There are several special cities in the world where property values are outside the norm. SF, Paris, Manhatten, London, Shanghai, and a few others are unique. They do have soft spots in their real estate markets but not anything like the ups and downs in "less special" cities like Los Angeles and Madrid and even Monaco. 993s are in an interesting market. Today a coup had 12 bids up to $35k but didn't sell because it didn't make the reserve. The seller should have taken the money. Another did sell for $48900 and I was shocked...but maybe the buyer didn't read the car's description very carefully. A cab sold with no reserve and it crossed the block for $35k Fair price. A coupe has been through the auction three times, wants $56k or best offer and isn't getting any. Aother cab is struggling to get over $30k. Same with a coupe. There is no shortage of nice 993s out there, and most are not selling because the buyers don't agree with the sellers prices. This isn't my opinion these are just the market prices of the day.

Quotes source post: 12295341

lets be fair, no it doesn't. ferrari 458s haul ***. lambo huracans haul *** 991 turbo S hauls *** a 993 with a regear, some mild weight reduction, and a few bolt ons does nothing close to haul ***. 300bhp, even with 2800lbs, does not make it a fast car.

Quotes source post: 12295836

I agree with this perspective unless he was talking about in that time period of that era. Lol. I love it when peeps get a 500hp tune in their turbo cars and say it's "scary fast". I'd imagine a 918, Koenigeggs, Pagani, Laferrari, or P1 would be "scary fast" but not too many other cars than those.

Quotes source post: 12295874

right. I had a 700rwhp mustang cobra and that didn't feel scary fast. I think you'd need about 1000bhp before it gets real scary. My 997TT only feels fast because its very quiet so its surprising.

It's all about one's perspective and previous driving experience. To me, a car really has to be fast in order for it to be "scary" fast. My comparison has always been motorcycles that I started with when I was 15-16 years old. When you take a 1000 cc+ motorcycle that has 200 hp and weighs 200kg, you start talking about something that hauls ***.

I think scary fast is a relative term that those who drive the upper elite hyper cars would describe differently than the general masses who will never drive one. In my perspective my car is scary fast enough for dd and normal street use.

Quotes source posts: 12295497, 12295497

That's the point. "Special cities" and 993's (last of the air-cooled) are analogous. They're both special. And both will appreciate over time. You know without links, who really knows. If you're watching eBay, then much of what you see there is high mileage junk for the most part. Personally, I'd much rather purchase a car from an esteemed RL'er and generally will pay a bit extra for the pedigree.

Quotes source post: 12295911

I don't think you need 1,000bhp before a car becomes scary fast. My aluminum-bodied Cobra is scary fast. 600+HP and 2,100 lbs. In fact, recently, a Cobra somewhat similar to mine, though with lower (numerically) rear end gearing and some mild aero add-ons hit 199 mph at a San Diego-area track. That's scary fast.

Quotes source post: 12296715

ok, perhaps power to weight is the key point. My mustang weighed about 3500lbs. 1400lbs certainly makes 600bhp much more effective and the open air setup makes it feel much faster. 199mph in a 997 turbo is not scary fast. In a cobra, yes, thats scary fast.

Quotes source post: 12296747

You have a bigger set of "huevos" than I.

Nothing depicts accurate value data quite like eBay lol

Quotes source post: 12296747

The cobra came w a free wife beater and hair gel too. U can't get that w a 997tt

Quotes source post: 12296903

You had a 944...do we really need to go there?

Quotes source post: 12293817

I think you are a little off, and John is making a little more sense (threw up a little uttering those words). When the **** hits the fan again (and it will, I am a COMRE developer and already see unsavory lending practices taking place again on both the commercial and residential side) and a guy has to decide between keeping his "lawnmower-esque" air pusher 911 and feeding his family or paying his mortgage, well you know what decision he's going to make. When that happens these over-inflated prices will come down. I love air cooled 911's, especially 993 WB cars, I think they are gorgeous. But I do believe asking prices and actual selling prices have a very large gap. Like that 40k mile '97 turbo will never sell for anything close to $400,000.

Quotes source post: 12296981

When the market takes a dump, and it will, if anyone wants to dump their Turquoise or Riviera Blue 993, please just PM me anytime. We can all make predictions about the market and someone will be right...eventually. Demand for 993's will be there, in the long term view, and supply is limited and dwindling over time. Simple Economics 101. By the way, I'll take the opposing view on the commercial and residential lending markets. Underwriting seems as difficult as what has become the norm since 2008-2009. However, I think the stock market is overpriced.

I am constantly watching the market. Last time I saw it leveling off I dumped 4 cars at peak price in one month. About 5 months later the bottom fell out. Within 1 year I had replaced all of those cars I had dumped with lower mileage examples that were bought at near 1/2 the price I dumped the old ones for. I think the 356 market will dump first this time around, I should probably sell mine, but I like it's 220HP too much :-)

Attitudes to every generation of 911 have waxed and waned, bumpers to head studs to tensioners to valve guides to (shield the children!) radiators. You could do worse than to have a nice clean '67 911 in your fleet-- despite their heretical 6-cylinder motors and their Sta-Puft grand touring tendencies, as decried by the 356 faithful when the 911 was newfangled. Too many 996s were built for actual collectibility to come its way. But I can imagine a clean, correct example growing up to be "Last of the pre-Cayenne / preVW 911s", or "First of the 911s that your wife will *request* in midsummer Virginia".... Or just the same old 911 song-- "make sure it's had the _____ done, and forget resale, you'll never part with the damn thing"

Quotes source post: 12297188

Can't wait. Looking forward to it.

Quotes source post: 12297172

They must not like you. I'm in the market for a new house (have been for a few years actually) and I've started getting loan offers for loans that are simply not possible (I think the worst was 2x my monthly pay before taxes...). The company that holds the note on my current house also offered to refi it for about $100k more than it is worth (without my prompting). How much of it would stand up if I thought any of it was a good enough idea to call them back on, I don't know. So I don't know if they are actually giving out such stupid loans again yet, but they are definitely trying to entice people already.

Quotes source post: 12297255

I'm not speaking for myself personally. I'm speaking about the lending market in general.

Posted to RL yesterday. This 993 sold recently for $1,600,000. https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...993-price.html

Quotes source post: 12296930

that was a low blow

Quotes source post: 12295836

I challenge you to come drive it and then offer your first hand experience. My car even at 8/10th's feels to me more fun than having to wind up the littany of more modern cars that could outpace it once they stretch their legs not unlike the way an old E30 M3 or even a vintage Ferarri, Porsche 550 etc. It isn't always about out and out pace.

Quotes source post: 12296682

Agree 100%. The only eBay completed sales for clean 993 NB coupes in the last month are: $48.9k (75k miles) $54.9k (47k miles) $37.5k (96k miles) $42.5k (79.5k miles) $40k (117k miles) (Two 993 turbos as well at $160k and $200k...) http://www.ebay.com/sch/Cars-Trucks-...le=Clear&rt=nc As for purchasing a 'listers car, check this out. Not nearly as easy as it used to be... https://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-...1-993-cab.html As for the OP, will 996 and 993 prices meet? I don't see it happening anytime soon. There are 140 993 coupes for sale on Autotrader today. Avg asking price is $72k. There are 710 996 coupes, avg asking is $28k. There are 100 996's listed below $20k. And as an aside, there are 100+ 997 coupes below $40k asking price on Autotrader today. ( 25 are below $35k.)

Quotes source post: 12297677

I'm not arguing that your car is more fun. I have a 993, I get the fun part, without question. You said it hauls ***...that I disagree with. Is your car fast enough to have fun...I have no doubt.

Quotes source post: 12297600

LOL, sorry dude, I know you loved that little hatchback.

Quotes source post: 12298630

This is exactly my thoughts as well. Miata, CRX, Mini, BRZ, Elise are also "fun" cars and some of those are actually more fun than my 996 around crowded urban environments, dare I say(flame suit on).

Quotes source post: 12298793

add mopeds and fat chicks... to the Miata, CRX, Mini, BRZ & Elise list...

"I bet you are really good on the straights." Comment I heard from an instructor to a Mustang driver.

Quotes source post: 12298807

Fat chicks can be fun! I remember this one night...never mind. Did I ever tell you guys that I once had drinks with Heather Locklear?

Quotes source post: 12298630

Based on the examples shown in this thread I have to agree that the 993 is quite capable at hauling asses. At least when you take them off their silk covered jack stands and actually take them out for a drive anyway

Quotes source post: 12298858

Color me jealous, even with the feathered hair and all. Wonder if William ever got a piece of her?

In reality most LAPD policewomen have more facial hair. The uniforms are tailored but the shape is more like a yam.

Quotes source post: 12299213

Ahhh, Heather my love... I know it came down to me and Tommy. I know I would have been the better man if it wasn't for the fact he was a rich, tatted, rock star with a ******* like a telephone pole. What could have been...

Quotes source post: 12298793

Alpine, you could have at least left out the Miata!

Quotes source post: 12297871

Asking prices are like padded bras. Only two numbers interest me. 1) completed sales. 2) sales that did not go through because the high bid didn't make the reserve. In terms of base car collectability it is usually the first and the last that become the most desired. But there is no clock or master plan that can predict when this will happen. It happens whenever a spontaneous market makes it happen. And it goes away in the exact same way.

Quotes source post: 12301096

Yes, and that's why Mongrelcat quoted actual 993 sales that weren't salvage or rebuilt titles. The averages 993 Coupe sales price, in the last month, was $45,000 with an average mileage of 83,000 miles. The asking prices for a 996 Coupe averaged $28,000, so actual sales prices will/would be far lower. So, the point being is that they'll likely NEVER meet, regardless of any downturn in the market, because 996 prices would recede as well.

Quotes source post: 12301096

WTF?

Quotes source posts: 12295497, 12296682

A Perfect analogy ... Special cities = Special cars.

FWIW- I favor my 993 less than all the other Aircooled cars I own. That doesn't mean I don't like it, that means it'll be the first to get dumped :-)

Quotes source post: 12300606

Why? He was listing cars you can drive at 8/10 in the city and have a blast without spending the night in jail. The Miata's 167HP 4-banger allows you to row through a few gears without breaking the law. If I wind out second in my 996, I'm already going faster than the speed limit on any public road in SoCal. There is a certain pleasure in having a good little car that you can flog without endangering the rest of humanity. The Miata is certainly one of 'em - check the SCCA autocross results if you have any question about whether the Miata deserves to be on the "good" car list.

Quotes source post: 12302513

167? You got one of those fancy new ones?

Quotes source post: 12302538

LOL

I don't think that prices will ever converge towards 993's, but I do think that the 996 will come to be appreciated more in the very long run because it is a great combination of a light and tossable car that also has all the modern creature comforts to make it work really well as a daily driver. Our recently acquired 2000 6-speed feels lighter and more tossable than my 87 Carrera 3.2 did, partially because of power steering and because it has so much more power than the 3.2, but also because the 996 is actually quite light. It is not quite as light as the 3.2, but it is quite a bit lighter than the models before and after the 996: http://blog.caranddriver.com/porsche...-legend-grows/ 964: 3050 lbs 993: 3080 lbs 996: 2900 lbs 997: 3253 lbs 991: 3250 lbs Normally weight measurements for the same car vary a lot depending on how they are measured, but because all of the above weights are from the same source (Car & Driver), it seems like it might be a meaningful comparison.

Quotes source post: 12302248

As of 6:13 pm on 5/22/15 there are 13 sold 993 C2 coupes listed on ebay. Not asking prices...sales prices. All clear titles. No S models, targas, cabs or C4s. Low price (a tie) $30k but one was best offer below 30. High price $54,900. Average for all 13 cars $35,220 Miles - low 47k high 136k average 92k The highest milage actually sold for $35k, 5 over the low price. The lowest milage car was also the highest priced car. There isn't any need to provide links, anyone can go on ebay and look at sold 993s under the same criteria I just used. 996 prices don't have to rise that much if 993 prices are slowly drifting down. And not all cars will meet...I'm just saying that sooner than later we will see overlap. No reason to get bent out of shape over it.